Is this not exactly what the NRA et al have advocated all along?

[Orrex]

Last edited Sun Jul 17, 2016, 02:59 PM - Edit history (1)

Utterly deaf to concerns about the hundreds of thousands of gun-related deaths over the years, the NRA and its surrogates have proudly sworn by their precious right to keep their beloved guns, if only to overthrow a perceived tyrannical government.

Well, isn't that what's happening here? A party taking up arms against a perceived unaccountable regime? How can gun advocates now fault this logical result of their most sacred argument for gun ownership?


I do not endorse violence, and for more than a decade on DU I am explicitly on record condemning vigilante justice and capital punishment. Nevertheless it seems clear that any hand-wringing we see from LaPierre, his cronies and his surrogates will be a charade while they work hard to ensure that no guns will be harmed nor inconvenienced in the wake of these (or any other) murders.


And if this isn't the armed resistance that they envisioned, what exactly did they have in mind? Which tyranny did they hope to overthrow?

[Warpy]

1. Gunfights in the street are going to make us a more civil society

or something like that. After all, the Wild West was perfectly safe with every hombre totin his six shooter. Boot Hill was just a myth.

I'm sure La Pierre's handwringing and tears are genuine, this isn't the way it's supposed to work, we're all supposed to be so terrified of each other's guns that politeness is supposed to take hold all over the country--after making gun manufacturers fat and sleek, of course.

I think the damned fool is genuinely surprised it's not happening that way.

[Akamai]

37. As you probably know, in the Wild West of the 1800's, the gun laws were stricter than today.

Take a look at the following article:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/7/23/1112703/-De-mythologizing-the-Wild-West-gun-laws-were-actually-stricter-then-than-now

Adam Winkler, author of Gunfight: The Battle to Bear Arms in America, concurs:

Yet this is all based on a widely shared misunderstanding of the Wild West. Frontier towns -- places like Tombstone, Deadwood, and Dodge -- actually had the most restrictive gun control laws in the nation.
In fact, many of those same cities have far less burdensome gun control today then they did back in the 1800s.

Guns were obviously widespread on the frontier. Out in the untamed wilderness, you needed a gun to be safe from bandits, natives, and wildlife. In the cities and towns of the West, however, the law often prohibited people from toting their guns around. A visitor arriving in Wichita, Kansas in 1873, the heart of the Wild West era, would have seen signs declaring, "Leave Your Revolvers At Police Headquarters, and Get a Check."

A check? That's right. When you entered a frontier town, you were legally required to leave your guns at the stables on the outskirts of town or drop them off with the sheriff, who would give you a token in exchange. You checked your guns then like you'd check your overcoat today at a Boston restaurant in winter. Visitors were welcome, but their guns were not.

[Warpy]

48. The first thing they learned in the mining boom towns

was to take the guns away from the guys who were heading for the saloon--and even the guys who weren't.

The movies of the swaggering gunslingers and cowhands both carrying their guns around town? Pure fiction. Yet most of the NRA true believers seem to think they were documentaries.

Uh, no. If you wanted to have a quick draw contest with an enemy, you had to do it outside town.

[beevul]

49. Thats a spun myth.

There were no prohibited persons in the old west.

There was no ATF in the old west.

There were no FFLs in the old west.

There was no national firearms act in the old west.

There was no gun control act in the old west.

Upon finishing their prison sentences, convicts were given their guns back in the old west.

There were no background checks in the old west.

There was no legal threshold for purchase of a gun in the old west.

While gun carry laws may be less strict these days, gun laws in general are far far far more strict.


I'll ask you the same thing I always ask when this claim is made:

Would you trade the gun laws we have today' for the gun laws of the wild west?

[Duckhunter935]

51. And once again, I doubt you will get an answer

Just like treating firearms like cars

[treestar]

2. Tried to discuss this on DU before

Exactly what if the gun supporting person finds another group out there thinks they are taking down the tyrannical government? Even if they don't agree, they are bound to support that the other group has that right.

[KeepItReal]

3. Open-carrying Assault Rifles with unlimited ammo in public.

Totally legal in Louisiana.

[Duckhunter935]

7. As long as you pass the background checks

And pay the additional tax stamp required. We will have to wait and see if this is the case though.

[Eleanors38]

8. I doubt this is an "assault rifle" (capable of full-auto fire).

No one yet knows of this person's legal statis vis a vis gun possession, public or otherwise.

[KeepItReal]

14. Semi-auto still counts as an assault weapon. Same ammo, same destructive capacity.

You are only arguing how fast one can put rounds downrange.

[Eleanors38]

21. Call it an "assault weapon" if style is a concern, but it is not an Assault Rifle.

[SusanLarson]

27. The Assault Weapons ban

Here is how it defined it so i think we can safely say that is what a Assault Weapon is. Fully automatic weapons are already incredibly hard to get and own.

‘(B) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of--
‘(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
‘(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
‘(iii) a bayonet mount;
‘(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and
‘(v) a grenade launcher;

‘(C) a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of--
‘(i) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;
‘(ii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;
‘(iii) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned;
‘(iv) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; and
‘(v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm; and

‘(D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of--
‘(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
‘(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
‘(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and
‘(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.’.

[Eleanors38]

33. Heh. I don't know how "safe" the definition was, since millions were sold nevertheless.

[groundloop]

32. Who the hell cares what they're called - they're fucking killing machines

QUIT WITH THE DAMNED SEMANTICS BULLSHIT. SEMI-AUTOMATIC, AUTOMATIC, WHO THE HELL CARES? THEY KILL PEOPLE.

[Eleanors38]

34. If you are in the biz of prohibition by law, you better care. nt

[Straw Man]

42. So ...

Who the hell cares what they're called - they're fucking killing machines

QUIT WITH THE DAMNED SEMANTICS BULLSHIT. SEMI-AUTOMATIC, AUTOMATIC, WHO THE HELL CARES? THEY KILL PEOPLE.

... your proposed legislation would make it illegal to possess "killing machines"? Sure, we'll let the courts sort it out ...

[ET Awful]

47. Why are you hung up on the term "Rifle"?

Since you seem to be so knowledgeable, I would assume that you know the definition of a "rifle".

A rifle is a "a gun, especially one fired from shoulder level, having a long spirally grooved barrel intended to make a bullet spin and thereby have greater accuracy over a long distance"

Now since you've conceded the "assault" portion of the term, based on the definition of "rifle", why would you argue on that part of the term?

Are you saying that if it's not fully automatic, it has a smooth bore and isn't a rifle?

You're making a poor argument.

[Duckhunter935]

53. Those two words make a legal definition

A rifle that has full auto or burst capabilities.

[ET Awful]

55. Please show me the law that says that. n/t

[Eleanors38]

59. Your next to last sentence fails logic completely. Now to the main point...

Assault Rifle is a description recognized by armorers and military personnel denoting a small, carbine-sized rifle capable of firing full-auto, and in some cases also select-fire; that is, in short bursts with each pull of the trigger. "Assault weapon" is a term of art used to describe a small, carbine-sized rifle which looks like the true military rifle described above, but incapable of firing full-auto or select fire. MSM and controller/banners have intentionally confused the two expressions in an attempt to convince the public that AR-15s, AK-47s, SKS carbines, etc. are just the same as full-auto "machine guns" used by the military, when in fact these and other semi-autos are NOT "military-grade" (the latest pastiche in banner terminology), and hence are NOT used by the modern militarys the world. One (assault rifles and other full-autos) is highly regulated by the feds, the other is not, likely because the semi-auto technology (two main ones) has been established since the late 1800s, and is the action of choice for gun purchasers. (I have a Winchester "Ought Three" .22 WAR in my safe. It was made in 1905.)

You will note even MSM is finally beginning to correct this confusion after for so long enjoying the spurious creativity which issued from it. After all, Dodge Daytona autos were not designed for NASCAR.

I hope this corrects your miss perceptions.

[Duckhunter935]

28. Well then please call it that

When you interchange those terms, some people get confused and think it is aa fully automatic machine gun. I know you did not do it on purpose did you? Since you indeed seem to know the difference.

[KeepItReal]

43. I never called *anything* a "fully automatic" weapon

Everyone knows those are outlawed.

We are talking about firearms like this and others:

[Duckhunter935]

44. You did when you called it an assault "rifle"

You seem to know the difference as you have stated.

Fully automatic rifles and machine guns are not outlawed, just very expensive and you have to have additional background checks and pay the taxes. None have been produced for the civilian market since 1986.

[KeepItReal]

45. Since you are worried about people being confused

Maybe they shouldn't manufacture and sell to the general public weapons that differentiate from their Military-spec brethren mainly by lacking a fully auto or 3 round burst selector.

[Duckhunter935]

50. People that tend to know firearms know the difference

Some people love to confuse those that are not quite as aware.

[Democat]

4. Right wingers talk about a government so small they can drown it in a bathtub

Right wingers preach hate of the government openly. The police are the government.

Democrats should bring this up often. When right wingers talk about hating the government, they are talking about the men and women in the police forces and military.

Didn't Clinton make this point after the Oklahoma City bombing?

[SusanLarson]

29. Except

Rightwingers love them some fascism, so they are ok with that aspect of government.

[glennward]

5. The Bundy ranch must be gleeful. nt

[DirkGently]

6. Part of the NRA calculus has always been *who* has the guns.

The Black Panthers supposedly inspired Reagan to support gun control. Someone needs to start the Young Muslim Rifle Association or the Black Lives Matter Militia.

We'd have airtight gun regulations across the board in a week or so.

[Eleanors38]

10. You have fantasies about "airtight gun regulations."

Blacks, Muslims, and other minorities own and use guns already. Drop your just-add-water Narrative©

[DirkGently]

13. The fantasy is the one the NRA is selling.

The one where powerless conservative people imagine they are preparing for the fantasy war against Government, which they imagine will solve all their political inequities, by playing soldier in the forest with piles of "tatical" gear.

But of course the war never comes. They never "take their country back." They squat in a wildlife refuge until they run out of Slim Jims and TP and are gently arrested with no bang; just a whimper.

They get none of the personal power promised by the gun culture. They end up more afraid than they were before.

But it would screw with the entire sales pitch if it wasn't a bunch of Ted Nugent types telling Hillary to suck their machine guns and all of that.

If everyone really was armed; if it was angry black and brown and liberal people showing up at the Applebee's with combat rifles slung over their shoulders, they wouldn't feel special anymore and they might think twice about what that would look like when the "SHTF" and all of the people they fear and hate have fancy rifles too.

I think they'd change their attitude INSTANTLY.

[Eleanors38]

22. Anyone who is not a convicted criminal or adjudicated mental incompetent can get a gun...

It surprises me how you and some others really believe that the NRA or anyone else is going to institute an apartheid gun system. Dirk, if for no other reason than money: As part of the controller Narrative, we are always remindedat the gun companies are only interested in sales and profits. If you are to believe in that economic determinism, then they aren't going to refuse sales to Muslims, blacks, Mexican-Americans, aliens or any of the future populations which will grow to displace old fat white guys -- another great trend we are reminded of. To do otherwise would be to undermine themselves. An even bigger fantasy.

[DirkGently]

39. The guns-as-political power faction is largely one demographic:

There is no question in my mind that if the fantasy of political relevance via gun ownership suddenly became a celebrated cause on the political left or among minority ethnic or religious groups, the starch would go right out of the whole cherished vision of "taking our country back."

Read any of their rants, and the undertones, and quite often the overt talk, depends on an assumption that white conservative people are the the "law abiding gun owners" who will gloriously retake their imagined cultural supremacy when multiculturalism and progressive values inevitably cause the breakdown of society.

[Eleanors38]

40. Though your first sentence is still fanciful, wouldn't it be nice?

[DirkGently]

41. Guns-as-political power is a white RW fantasy.

Fantasizing about lost political and cultural relevance. Being told it's all there for them at the Guns 'n Ammo Store.

Sadly, they don't sell cultural supremacy there.



http://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/1iqpj4/picture63878677/ALTERNATES/FREE_640/Parker



https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=

[Surya Gayatri]

11. ^^^This!^^^

[Eleanors38]

23. That is a curious fantasy...

Read my quaint remarks above: You cannot simultaneously think the gun industry will gobble up so much blood money profits (as we are so often reminded) even as they cut off the market to the fastest growing populations displacing all those old white guys (another trend we are constantly reminded of)!

Frankly, that's crazy. Crazy enough to throw a wrench into already fanciful controller arguments.

[Orrex]

12. That was my thought exactly.

If only we had a recent counter-example in which an armed group of white thugs had taken action against the government, so that we could compare gun advocates' response in that case.

If only...

[Eleanors38]

26. There was an "example:" Clive Bundy, et al. Roundly condemned by 2A advocates here and elsewhere.

But Narratives must be invented and nurtured as fast as they are discredited.

[Rex]

16. Well that will give a few people a big sadz.

The truth always does! Well done!

[Cosmocat]

17. lol

got that ...

[sarae]

38. YES

So true. They're A-OK with white militias. Black or Muslim ones, not so much.

[Skittles]

58. BLMM would drive them INSANE

[JaneyVee]

9. It's the NRAs world, we just die in it.

[Stinky The Clown]

15. I give this a thousand recs!

[irisblue]

18. The NRA wasn't planning on POC weaponing up,

just you know....people like Wayne & Sharon Angle.
...

[Orrex]

19. Real Americans™ in other words

I think you've hit it right on the head.

[UnFettered]

20. If people want realistic gun laws that work

Then something along the lines of heavily restricting handguns would have the biggest impact. Even with all the news and incidents with semi automatics,by far most crimes are committed with handguns.

Maybe something along the lines of some of the concealed carry requirements but for all handgun ownership. This would be a decent start in the right direction.

[MariaThinks]

24. yes

[IronLionZion]

25. They'll still use it to promote gun sales

They'll argue that more good people need to have guns to protect themselves from the lawless bad guys out there.

Their main argument in favor of semi-automatic weapons with high capacity magazines is for protection during riots where a lot of bad guys are coming after you.

Even as many gun nuts claim guns are for protection against the government (police), others are prepping for doomsday and the zombie apocalypse and any other imaginary scenario that would result if the police didn't keep law and order.

Trump as the law and order candidate should hopefully lose a lot of libertarian minded or anti-government Repubs.

[Still In Wisconsin]

52. Bingo!

It's about the $$$

[randr]

30. This is exactly how the "2nd Amendment solution" that the NRA so proudly proclaims

plays out. Where are the NRA cheerleaders defending the "African American Community"?

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

31. Who is taking up arms against which unaccountable regime?

Turkey? Ukraine? Syria? Somalia? France?

Or something I might have missed while I was working outside?

[etherealtruth]

35. This is the dystopian society the NRA and other right-wing nuts want

[Paladin]

56. Precisely. They thrive on violent fantasies and paranoia.

And above all, they do not give a single flying fuck about gun-related death and violence. Whether it's cops or classrooms full of first-graders, they view all the deaths as a more-than-fair cost for having access to all the firearms they want.

[doc03]

36. Exactly the more guns the better, the only thing that stops a bad guy

with a gun is a good guy with a gun. Now we have Republicans wanting to take our 2nd Amendment rights away ye-haw.

[VOX]

54. "An armed society is a polite society"...NOT!

Hardware-fondlers love that Robert Heinlein quote; Heinlein himself was an Ayn Rand bicycle-seat sniffing libertarian with some pretty weird views.

His quote belongs in a Museum of Shitty Right-Wing Quotes, alongside "a rising tide floats all boats," and "the Iraqi people will greet us as liberators."

[sylvanus]

57. NRA, #NoLivesMatter.