Blue lives matter and black lives matter.

[Vattel]

Time to unify against unjust killing.

[guillaumeb]

1. If black lives REALLY mattered it would not have to be said. eom

[Joe the Revelator]

12. Yeah! Fuck Unity! Fuck talking things out!

Keep the killings ALIVE

[guillaumeb]

41. The relevance of your comment is............?

[Joe the Revelator]

42. What was the relevance of yours?

Somebody posts a thread calling for unity,and you got the first reply shitting on it. Congrats?

[guillaumeb]

44. Perhaps you have not read the numerous other posts here?

Unity is wonderful, but justice must come first.

Save some of your anger for the many victims of police racism. Nothing excuses violence but the police are also guilty of it. Or had you not noticed?

[cheapdate]

51. +1

[RandySF]

2. Thank you.

One side, my elderly dad thinks no white police officer can do any wrong. On the other are people on DU who say they would not even call the police in an emergency. Let's please use common sense.

[Chakab]

4. Based on my life experience, it's common sense for me to avoid dealing with

the police at all costs unless something on the level of a robbery, rape or murder needs to be reported.

[loyalsister]

40. It shouldn't be

but it is a privilege to feel safe in dealing with police. I talked with someone about this recently who was stunned when I told her I would have no reservations in calling the police if I was truly afraid or had been the victim of crime. For her there are a lot of factors that go into the decision that I would not dream of having to consider. She would have to think about whether any of her sons would be around and even in instances of domestic abuse, a woman may want a man out of the house, but she doesn't want him to be killed.
That someone could be killed or seriously hurt if I reported a relatively minor issue is not something that would enter my mind. But, in the name of survival and not wanting to set off an ugly chain of events people of color weigh their potential interactions with police extremely cautiously. I don't think they should be asked to "get over it" and hold hands with police.

[Silver_Witch]

56. Do not call the police if you need help.

Especially if you or the person needing help are mentally ill or poor or non-white.

[ZombieHorde]

3. One of those groups has been systematically oppressing

the other for generations. The police are not the only oppressors of black people in the US, but they are the most obviously violent oppressors. Black people have not been oppressing police officers.

[Vattel]

6. A tiny minority of cops murder anyone.

[ZombieHorde]

8. Murder isn't the only form of oppression.

Racial profiling, intimidation, and harassment aren't usually lethal, but always oppressive.

That said, the non-murderous majority seem to be covering for the murderous minority.

[zz-la]

9. I second that

People seem to miss quite frequently the larger picture.

[Vattel]

14. I agree that our criminal justice system has played a huge role in the oppression of

African Americans. And of course many police officers racially profile, intimidate and harass. I am not sure what that has to do with my post.

And the non-murderous majority of cops don't cover for the few who commit murder. The majority would not be in a position to do so because so few cops commit murder.

[ZombieHorde]

17. The few isn't that few according to the AA community.

I don't have any hard evidence of the number of times guns or drugs are planted to cover for murders and false arrests, so I don't expect you to defend against that argument. However, even if I give you most cops don't have the opportunity to cover for murder, they still systematically oppress the AA community pretty much where ever they are found.

[Vattel]

20. I think your picture of the police is too simplistic. Police culture varies greatly department to

department. But why are you even telling me that the police systematically oppress the AA community? My OP did not claim otherwise. Blue lives matter even if cops have moral flaws.

[Exilednight]

27. Blue lives matter less. When someone puts on a uniform to serve the public, then by default

they are agreeing that the lives and safety of the public is more important than their own.

[ZombieHorde]

38. Police, as a demographic, aren't being oppressed.

To say blue lives matter is no different than all lives matter.

[Vattel]

47. I think the events of recent days make "blue lives matter" an important message.

"All lives matter" is just a failure to understand the significance of "black lives matter"

[ZombieHorde]

48. Why?

Children are oppressed and killed but we don't have kids' lives matter. Blue lives matter exists because people are upset at black lives matter. The BLM movement has been exposing the systematic oppression they suffer from the police and the opponents of BLM want to make a false equivalency with the blue lives mantra.

[Vattel]

49. Wow, you really don't like my using the phrase "blue lives matter"

in response to the recent wave of murders of police officers. (Note that to my knowledge there has not been a recent increase in hateful killings of children.)

There is a lot of hatred out there towards cops. That has consequences. Deadly consequences. No, I don't blame BLM for those murders. No, I do not think cops are oppressed in the way the AA community is. No, I am not an opponent of BLM. (Hell, I donated $50 to DeRay's mayoral bid.)

You want to put words into my mouth so that you can attack me. Fine. Maybe my intent was unclear. My post was anti-hate and anti-violence.

[ZombieHorde]

50. I wasn't putting words in your mouth, I am saying where

blue lives matter comes from. It's RW bs to create a false equivalency. Maybe police should stop their pattern of systematic abuse if they don't want people hating them.

[cheapdate]

52. +1. Exactly.

[Vattel]

53. I am not sure what your point is, then.

What do you object to in my post? Is the problem that I have used a phrase with a bad pedigree to express my opposition to hatred and violence? Maybe I should have chosen a better phrase. I can concede that. I don't want to promote false equivalencies.

I might add that you seem to excuse hatred too easily when the hatred is aimed at cops. Do you know any cops? Your sweeping generalizations about cops being villains make you seem ideological. Reality is rarely as cartoonish as you present it.

[ZombieHorde]

57. I respect that, and I don't like seeing people getting murdered either.

Cops getting shot will likely put them on edge and could increase their abusive methods.

My objection to your post was the false equivalency and the fact that BLM started because of the blue lives shooting them in the streets without repercussions.

[Vattel]

60. Again, the reality is more complicated.

BLM became a movement partly because initial reports about the Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown killings indicated that these killings were murder. After all of the evidence was in, however, the Martin case was very unclear and, as the DOJ report on the Brown case showed, the evidence in that case favored the conclusion that Brown was not murdered but rather killed in a legally justified act of self-defense.

This is not to say that cops never murder anyone or that abusive police practices are not widespread. I think our criminal justice system in general, including policing methods, needs radical reform. But I don't think that most cops deserve the contempt that some on the left subject them to.

[KingCharlemagne]

21. 4 pigs were charged in the 1991 beating of Rodney King. 22 pigs were

videotaped standing around while the beat down occurred. There goes the "just a few bad apples" trope. Oops!

And then there was the Ramparts Division scandal.

[Vattel]

22. I never invoked the "just a few bad apples trope." So please don't put words in my mouth.

[uponit7771]

15. +1, its the justice system as a whole seeing there's usually low consequences for the oppression

[guillaumeb]

45. Truly well said.

And the damage from intimidation and oppression is cumulative. And the cover up is indeed apparent.

[Bettie]

18. And yet a majority of cops

profile POC.

A majority of cops turn a blind eye toward brutality by their co-workers.

A majority of cops refuse to report inappropriate behavior.

Those who stand silent are not "good cops" they are enablers.

Those who defend murderous cops are worse than enablers, they are complicit.

[Vattel]

19. I agree that the failure of cops to hold each other accountable is a huge problem.

Still, very few defend murderous cops because only a tiny minority of cops commit murder.

[Bettie]

23. Murder is the end result of a...

what word am I looking for? Casualness about the lives of human beings.

A "tiny minority" might end up killing, but the overall attitude of police toward non-white people, specifically black people, leads to this "tiny minority" of killings.

It also shows when people look for any excuse to blame the victim when a cop kills a black man (or woman).

Frankly, NO ONE holds cops accountable. They usually get zero consequences for their behavior (from frivolous arrests, bogus traffic stops, brutality, to murder) we should all be outraged by this. We should expect better from people who are employed to protect all of us.

That's all, not just those whose skin is the color the cop likes or doesn't fear.

[Vattel]

24. We don't disagree too much.

I completely agree that cops who violate rights of citizens need to be held accountable. I don't agree that no one holds them accountable. Some do go to prison. Others are fired. But I agree that way too much bad behavior gets a pass.

You point out that people look for any excuse to blame the victim when a cop kills a black person. The opposite is also true. Many people irresponsibly assume that when a cop kills a black person, the cop committed murder. Just look at the Michael Brown case. Many still claim that he was murdered even though the DOJ report effectively shows that the evidence favors the conclusion that he was killed in self-defense.

[Silver_Witch]

59. +1000

Thank you

[RickHworth]

26. And out of that tiny minority

how many were convicted?

[etherealtruth]

43. Convicted? How many were even prosecuted? n/t

[Silver_Witch]

58. Those who are blind will never see

[sylvanus]

5. In America, sadly, it seems like "No Lives Matter". n/t

[RandySF]

7. Only the Fourth Amendment matters.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

10. "Only the Fourth Amendment matters."

Not the only one but, yes, it is very important.

[romanic]

33. That's how I've been feeling lately.

Too many tragedies happening at once.

[philosslayer]

11. Why not just say all lives matter?

Slippery slope, isn't it.

[Vattel]

13. "All lives matter" fails to recognize the point of saying "black lives matter."

Because of recent events, I think it is reasonable to emphasize that blue lives matter too.

[The Straight Story]

16. The reason should be obvious

And it's not a slippery slope at all.

[HughBeaumont]

34. It's a neutralization technique called "denying the victim".

An offshoot of blaming the victim, per se.

[HughBeaumont]

25. "Blue" is a choice. Black is not.

If "all lives matter", why were swaths of people steadfastly blaming a 12 year old for his own death despite video proof that Tamir Rice's murder was pretty much a drive by enacted in less than 2 seconds? Why was Tamir not allowed due process? Why did our county and country's racists invent narratives to justify his murder?

America better start biting some bitter pills and admit there IS such a thing as a bad cop.

[Duckhunter935]

29. I blame the cops for that

But it did not help that he was pointing a realistic "toy" weapon at people. Toy guns should not look like real weapons.

[HughBeaumont]

32. My son owns tons of Airsoft guns.

I never once had to tell him to not take them out in public in fear that a panicky cop would kill him.

Now why do you suppose that is?

And WHAT PEOPLE? Extended security footage of that incident shows 2-3 other people at that mostly abandoned park in 10 minutes. They mostly just ignored him; didn't run, didn't do anything. It doesn't make any difference what "didn't help"; those actions don't warrant due process and proper police procedure to be tossed out a window and an instant death sentence to be administered.

Timothy Loehmann belongs in jail. The fact that America looks at that footage and some of it's citizens see absolutely no problem with what those two officers did . . . yeah, there's something really WRONG with that.

[Duckhunter935]

36. Like I said, I hold the police accountable

What theey did was inexcusable.

[Duckhunter935]

28. True, since it is forbidden to say "all"

[LanternWaste]

31. I too pretend that which may cause discussion is forbidden as well.

I too pretend that which may cause discussion is forbidden as well. Granted, we have no objective evidence to support our premise, but it does illustrate our weak grasp of both context and nuance rather accurately.

[840high]

35. .+1

[NaturalHigh]

37. All lives matter.

I continue to say it. If it causes some heartburn amongst some angst-ridden word police, all the better.

[LanternWaste]

30. All holidays matter...

All holidays matter, but during November I often say 'Happy Thanksgiving' rather than 'Happy Fourth of July."

You see, as grade-school math has taught us, sub-sets are often relevant given what may be happening at any given point in time and at any given place.

[B2G]

39. So you agree that Blue Lives Matter

in light of events of the past few weeks.

Good.

[maxsolomon]

46. who said Blue Lives don't matter?

Last edited Tue Jul 19, 2016, 10:52 AM - Edit history (1)

virtually no one thinks the Dallas or Baton Rouge killings were anything but unjust.

every killing of a black man by the police comes with the assumption of justification.

Blue Lives Matter is All Lives Matter by another means. dismissing the validity of the original complaint.

[sarae]

55. +10

Cops get away with murder - they're almost never charged. If anything, they should be held to a higher standard, since they're supposed to protect us.

[Silver_Witch]

54. To Clinton Blue Lives Matter!

She said today those who kill police will be charged. What about cops that kill and get away Scott free??? What does she say about them?

Crickets!

[truebluegreen]

61. Sorry, but f--k that framing.

Of course Blue Lives Matter. That is reinforced every day, whenever there are headlines about cops killed, or manhunts for cop killers, and overwhelming police response / media coverage to any officer wounded or killed.. Fuck. We've all watched Law And Order--cop killings are especially heinous....

The point is that Black Lives Matter TOO. Just As Much, in fact. And that fact is far too often brushed over.