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cali

(114,904 posts)
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 05:24 AM Jun 2012

Famous Cave Paintings Might Not Be From Humans


The Panel of Hands in the Cave of El Castillo in Spain. New dating methods suggest the paintings could have been drawn by Neanderthals, not humans, as previously thought.

The famous paintings on the walls of caves in Europe mark the beginning of figurative art and a great leap forward for human culture.

But now a novel method of determining the age of some of those cave paintings questions their provenance. Not that they're fakes — only that it might not have been modern humans who made them.

The first European cave paintings are thought to have been made over 30,000 years ago. Most depict animals and hunters. Some of the eeriest are stencils of human hands, apparently made by blowing a spray of pigment over a hand held up to a wall.

But now scientists are suggesting those aren't human hands, at least in some caves in Spain.

<snip>

http://wkyufm.org/post/famous-cave-paintings-might-not-be-humans

27 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Famous Cave Paintings Might Not Be From Humans (Original Post) cali Jun 2012 OP
Hmmmm... Frank Cannon Jun 2012 #1
I came in here to see this posted. joshcryer Jun 2012 #10
Hmmmm... Frank Cannon Jun 2012 #2
Errr... but Neanderthals were a type of human. eShirl Jun 2012 #3
Entirely plausible DFW Jun 2012 #4
Is the museum accessible by public transportation? spinbaby Jun 2012 #16
Yes, several trains and buses from Dusseldor OldEurope Jun 2012 #20
Who said Neanderthals weren't human? baldguy Jun 2012 #5
"Science" "news" correspondants are, too frequently, Science-challenged. n/t eShirl Jun 2012 #6
And that actually goes for those who publish the AAAS "Science" magazine too muriel_volestrangler Jun 2012 #8
Apparently a sub-species or separate human species - TBF Jun 2012 #17
meh---it was Freepers. trumad Jun 2012 #7
Can't be. The lack of opposable thumbs would have given them away. tclambert Jun 2012 #11
Freepers aren't that talented. hobbit709 Jun 2012 #12
It's hard work misspelling a pictogram IDemo Jun 2012 #18
But they do manage to do it. hifiguy Jun 2012 #23
Eh, you give them too much credit. joshcryer Jun 2012 #13
Somebody needs to make the "You're not special" speech to the entire human species, tclambert Jun 2012 #9
Didn't know the tea party was into art. AnnieK401 Jun 2012 #14
does it really matter who painted the caves? madrchsod Jun 2012 #15
c'mon! republicans aren't artists! unblock Jun 2012 #19
I really doubt the Neanderthal possibility will hold up starroute Jun 2012 #21
Thanks for all that info! I'm just finishing Finlayson's "The Humans Who Went Extinct" ... eppur_se_muova Jun 2012 #24
Watch a Show that stated that Modern Humans and Neanderthals overlapped but not together happyslug Jun 2012 #26
Another obvious possibility slackmaster Jun 2012 #22
all white humans have Neanderthal blood librechik Jun 2012 #25
Possible, but unlikely cthulu2016 Jun 2012 #27

eShirl

(18,466 posts)
3. Errr... but Neanderthals were a type of human.
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 06:12 AM
Jun 2012
"Neanderthals are classified alternatively as a subspecies of Homo sapiens (Homo sapiens neanderthalensis) or as a separate human species (Homo neanderthalensis)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal

DFW

(54,047 posts)
4. Entirely plausible
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 06:21 AM
Jun 2012

There is a huge museum with Neanderthal artifacts and history about a 20 minute drive south of me, at the valley of the Neander stream.

In German, that's "Neandertal." It's the site where the relics were first identified, and from whence the name comes. Very eye-opening, if you are ever in the Düsseldorf area.

spinbaby

(15,073 posts)
16. Is the museum accessible by public transportation?
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 07:56 AM
Jun 2012

If so, I'll add it to my list of things to do next time I'm in Germany.

eShirl

(18,466 posts)
6. "Science" "news" correspondants are, too frequently, Science-challenged. n/t
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 06:30 AM
Jun 2012

P.S. great sig line!

muriel_volestrangler

(101,146 posts)
8. And that actually goes for those who publish the AAAS "Science" magazine too
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 06:45 AM
Jun 2012
COVER View of a ceiling in Altamira Cave, Cantabria, Spain (original image rotated 180°). The multicolor (brown and red) bison depicted here date to ~18,000 years ago but were painted on top of earlier single-color artwork (red). New uranium-thorium dates on calcite crusts show that the large (~50-centimeter) double-claviform figure (center right) is at least 35,600 years old, indicating that, at the latest, cave painting here began shortly after humans first arrived. See page 1409.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/336/6087.cover-expansion


The press release by the university is, I think, better - just a couple of uses of 'human' without 'modern', and I think it is using the word in those cases to mean both anatomically modern humans and Neanderthals.

http://www.bris.ac.uk/news/2012/8560.html

TBF

(31,919 posts)
17. Apparently a sub-species or separate human species -
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 08:00 AM
Jun 2012

Neanderthals were members of a now-extinct group of the genus Homo known from Pleistocene specimens found in Europe and parts of western and central Asia. The term "Neanderthal", a shortening of "Neanderthal man", is sometimes spelled Neandertal, the modern spelling of the location in Germany where the species was first discovered. Neanderthals are classified alternatively as a subspecies of Homo sapiens (Homo sapiens neanderthalensis) or as a separate human species (Homo neanderthalensis).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal


Regardless, an interesting article.

tclambert

(11,080 posts)
9. Somebody needs to make the "You're not special" speech to the entire human species,
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 06:48 AM
Jun 2012

not just to a group of high school graduates.



(David McCullough, Jr.'s famous commencement speech at Wellesley High School. It's funny and wise, a good combination.)

starroute

(12,977 posts)
21. I really doubt the Neanderthal possibility will hold up
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 12:07 PM
Jun 2012

Last edited Fri Jun 15, 2012, 03:44 PM - Edit history (1)

Over just the last few months, there's been a rapid shift in the dating of when modern humans arrived in Europe. The upshot is that they showed up a whole lot earlier than previously thought, that the Neanderthals were already nearly extinct even before then, and that any evidence of advanced symbolic behavior previously attributed to Neanderthals is turning out to be associated with modern humans instead.

Most European Neanderthals died out 50,000 years ago.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/02/120225110942.htm

Carvings from a German cave, definitely made by modern humans, have been redated to 43,000 years ago.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120524092226.htm

Recent dating of some teeth and a jaw fragment shows modern humans were in both England and Italy between 41,000 and 44,000 years ago. This suggests they must also have reached France and northern Spain no later than 40,000-41,000 years ago (and perhaps earlier), which exactly matches the new date for the Spanish cave art of 40,800 years ago.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15540464
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2011/11/uluzzian-was-sapiens-not-neanderthal.html

The redating for Italy specifically upsets the assumption that the Uluzzian culture -- which included the use of personal ornaments and pigments -- can be attributed to Neanderthals.
http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index.php/archives/11/2011/new-dating-of-cave-site-upsets-neanderthal-theory

In addition, it was always assumed in the past that that Neanderthals made some kind of cultural leap in the last couple of thousand years before they went extinct as a result of contact with modern humans. But DNA studies have now shown that although there was interbreeding when modern humans first arrived in the Middle East from Africa, present-day Europeans show at most a minutely greater percentage of Neanderthal DNA than people in East Asia do. This further supports the new scenario in which there were very few Neanderthals left in Europe when modern humans arrived there and little to no contact between the two groups.

eppur_se_muova

(36,227 posts)
24. Thanks for all that info! I'm just finishing Finlayson's "The Humans Who Went Extinct" ...
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 02:06 PM
Jun 2012

and I've been amazed at how much the theories have changed over the last few decades. Every time there's a discovery that seems to be the "last word" on some detail or other re. human origins, it's overturned just a few years later ... Finlayson is recent enough (2009) to include Neanderthal DNA results but he seems to be extremely cautious about overinterpreting from evidence which is necessarily fragmentary, and treats dates with circumspection. Oh, and everything is copiously footnoted -- just reading the titles of the articles is eye-opening in many cases. As someone who's not a specialilst in the field, it helps to see how much of this is still being actively debated, and on the basis of what evidence.

(BTW, I went looking for a book on Neanderthals after I had read Fagan's "Cro-Magnon" -- very disappointing -- seemed full of unwarranted assumptions, esp. about Neanderthals.)

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
26. Watch a Show that stated that Modern Humans and Neanderthals overlapped but not together
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 03:22 PM
Jun 2012

Last edited Sat Jun 16, 2012, 12:29 AM - Edit history (2)

What I meant by the above is after examination of Neanderthal Cells we can now determine what was that person's general diet, i.e. plant eater or meat eater. Studies on Neanderthals seems to indicate they were 80% meat eaters. Modern Humans are WAY below that figure even if you view yourself as a meat eater.

Another factor as to Neanderthals was the lack of chnage in their habits, best seen in that in areas we knew had salmon (and other fish) runs, Neanderthals did not eat salmon or such seasonal fish. Neanderthals seems to be people who did what they had always done and what they parents had done, little is no investigation or change. i..e they hunted deer last week, they hunted deer this week, even if this week they was a massive salmon run where the salmon almost leaped into their cooking pots.

More of the food of Neanderthals and food:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17595-seafood-gave-us-the-edge-on-the-neanderthals.html

Neanderthals used the same tools for almost they entire existence (the only change came with contact with modern Humans, through the recent research may show what had been thought as a change in Neanderthals where instead the product of modern humans).

At the time Modern Humans entered Europe and came into contact with Neanderthals, what had previously been forest was turning to grasslands. Modern humans, who have a habit of investigating and adopting changes, quickly adapted to the new grasslands, the Neanderthals retreated into the surviving forest patches where they could still hunt what they had always hunted.

Modern humans tend to remember things year to year (as do bears and some other animals) thus during Salmon (and other fish) runs, today as while as during the time period in discussion, modern Humans go to the stream that is running with fish and fish. Modern humans will remember what is coming into "season" i.e what is ripe and go and pick those ripe fruits and seeds. Neanderthals appear to do neither, i.e. change for what comes and go in the sense of fish or animals, or move around depending on what fruit or seed is eatable.

This movement of people to go to what is in season, is absence in the movement of Neanderthals, and that is believe that Neanderthals were so dependent on meat.

Thus I can say the pictures were not drawn by Neanderthals for Neanderthals do NOT seem to have the ability to think about next season let alone next year or some future movement of animals.

On the other hand, two other articles can support a claim for Neanderthals. First is that when examined the drawings seems to be drawn equally by the left and right hands. Thus that implies either 50% of the population was lefty, or what we call Right hand dominance had not yet developed in humans. Neanderthals were NOT known to use throwing weapons, thus the need to use one hand or the other was of minor importance to them (Modern theory indicates Right handedness came out of the need to accurately throw things, not needed by Neanderthals (Apparently), Chimpanzee or Gorillas (based on actual observations of Chimpanzees and Gorillas). Thus if the drawings were done by Neanderthals would explain the 50% left handiness of the drawers.

Now the drawing being done by the left hand can be explained otherwise, for example may be the drawer kept his dominate right hand on the LIGHT thus forcing him or her to draw with the left (and only one out of every two drawers had to hold the light, thus the other drawer could use his or her right). The left handiness could have been a cultural demand, i.e. certain drawings had to be done by a lefty, thus even if leftys were only 10% of the population they had to draw 50% of the drawings.

The other problem is the lack of dogs in the drawings. May be cultural, they wanted to show the game that they wanted to hunt, and the human drawings were to show what THEY would do if the game came back, thus no need to show any dogs helping them.

The response to this is current theory (Under attack in some quarters) say dogs only became integrated with human society. 35,000 years ago, starting in the Middle east. Thus the lack of dogs is dismissed for dogs were NOT integrated with Humans at that time.

The problem with this is recent DNA studies have indicated that Wolfs and Dogs split about 100,000 years ago, about the time Modern Humans appear. Thus modern Humans and Dogs have been interacting for about 100,000 years. Now, the theory goes is that when modern Humans appear, they quickly saw that Wolfs could drive animals to them. Modern humans then acted on that observation. Modern humans then decided to encourage such drives by giving part of any game killed to the wolves that drove the game. Wolves are NOT dumb, thus some wolves started to intact with humans. It appears these were the smaller wolves, about the size of today's dogs not full size wolves, for the smaller wolf could maneuver themselves for protection by the Humans of larger wolves appeared (and warn the humans of the approach of the hostile pack). Thus these dog size wolves and humans interacted for thousands of years before man took them formerly into their camp. Present theory states that such integration took place 40-45,000 years ago (Based on changes in dog teeth of about 35,000 years ago when it appears humans started to breed dogs for certain attributes), thus in plenty of time for dogs to be in the drawings.

Thus arguments can be made for AND against Neanderthals making these drawings. maybe in the future this debate can be resolved by future findings, but right now it is all still up for debate more then anything else.


More on wolves and dogs
http://www.workingdogweb.com/DogOrigins.htm
http://discovermagazine.com/1998/jan/theyearinscience1393

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
27. Possible, but unlikely
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 04:02 PM
Jun 2012

It would be a heck of a coincidence if, after 200-300 thousand years of Neanderthal reign in Europe the first Neanderthal cave painting in Europe happened to date from roughly the same time modern humans first entered Europe.

This is not a knock on Neanderthals, it's just math.

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