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Tue Aug 23, 2016, 02:25 PM

Should students be required to recite the Pledge of Allegiance & hold hand over heart?

Fox News is all over this story, so please excuse the source. I'm more interested in people's opinions here. Do you think it should be mandatory for students to participate in the Pledge of Allegiance, and should holding their hand over their heart be encouraged? Should children be able to excuse themselves from reciting the pledge, rather than having parents sign a waiver?

A Florida man is upset after his niece brought home a Pledge of Allegiance waiver that asked parents to sign and return the form if they’d like their child to “be excused from reciting” it.

It read: “I understand my rights as a parent and I request that my child, noted above, be excused from reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. This request includes standing and placing his/her right hand over his/her heart.”

“My niece brought this home from school today…What is happening to our country?!?” he said in (a Facebook) post.

Brienen’s sister-in-law returned the form with her daughter, writing the following in response: “This is the dumbest thing I have ever read and I am so ashamed of this.”


http://myfox8.com/2016/08/22/florida-school-sends-home-pledge-of-allegiance-waiver/

105 replies, 5782 views

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Reply Should students be required to recite the Pledge of Allegiance & hold hand over heart? (Original post)
True Dough Aug 2016 OP
Glorfindel Aug 2016 #1
unblock Aug 2016 #2
villager Aug 2016 #3
treestar Aug 2016 #4
relayerbob Aug 2016 #5
LanternWaste Aug 2016 #6
Angry Dragon Aug 2016 #7
tonyt53 Aug 2016 #8
sinkingfeeling Aug 2016 #9
gratuitous Aug 2016 #10
kestrel91316 Aug 2016 #53
Ms. Toad Aug 2016 #68
gratuitous Aug 2016 #87
mcar Aug 2016 #11
La Lioness Priyanka Aug 2016 #12
prairierose Aug 2016 #13
milestogo Aug 2016 #14
trof Aug 2016 #25
Stonepounder Aug 2016 #28
Hortensis Aug 2016 #15
Igel Aug 2016 #58
Hortensis Aug 2016 #89
LuvNewcastle Aug 2016 #16
cyberswede Aug 2016 #86
csziggy Aug 2016 #94
KG Aug 2016 #17
Exilednight Aug 2016 #43
libdem4life Aug 2016 #66
hunter Aug 2016 #18
WillowTree Aug 2016 #19
July Aug 2016 #21
WillowTree Aug 2016 #33
kestrel91316 Aug 2016 #54
WillowTree Aug 2016 #70
Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #76
Dr. Strange Aug 2016 #98
Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #100
avebury Aug 2016 #56
bravenak Aug 2016 #57
Person 2713 Aug 2016 #64
Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #75
July Sep 2016 #103
July Sep 2016 #104
trof Aug 2016 #27
WillowTree Aug 2016 #30
kestrel91316 Aug 2016 #55
ForgoTheConsequence Aug 2016 #74
July Sep 2016 #105
hunter Aug 2016 #62
smirkymonkey Aug 2016 #20
kskiska Aug 2016 #22
matt819 Aug 2016 #23
leftyladyfrommo Aug 2016 #24
milestogo Aug 2016 #39
MineralMan Aug 2016 #48
LWolf Aug 2016 #26
BSdetect Aug 2016 #29
Grey Aug 2016 #31
Xolodno Aug 2016 #32
JoePhilly Aug 2016 #34
Chemisse Aug 2016 #36
JoePhilly Aug 2016 #38
gopiscrap Aug 2016 #85
Xolodno Aug 2016 #40
JoePhilly Aug 2016 #42
True Dough Aug 2016 #44
Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #73
Buckeye_Democrat Aug 2016 #35
CharlotteVale Aug 2016 #37
KG Aug 2016 #41
bigwillq Aug 2016 #45
surrealAmerican Aug 2016 #46
Oneironaut Aug 2016 #47
MineralMan Aug 2016 #49
Tikki Aug 2016 #50
kestrel91316 Aug 2016 #51
True Dough Aug 2016 #69
Laffy Kat Aug 2016 #52
Kali Aug 2016 #59
kestrel91316 Aug 2016 #60
True Dough Aug 2016 #71
dlwickham Aug 2016 #61
JonathanRackham Aug 2016 #63
liberal N proud Aug 2016 #65
MyOwnPeace Aug 2016 #67
Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #72
bhikkhu Aug 2016 #77
True Dough Aug 2016 #78
jberryhill Aug 2016 #79
ismnotwasm Aug 2016 #80
roody Aug 2016 #81
FXSTD Aug 2016 #82
Nevernose Aug 2016 #83
gopiscrap Aug 2016 #84
JustinL Aug 2016 #88
Zing Zing Zingbah Aug 2016 #90
brooklynite Aug 2016 #91
Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #92
NaturalHigh Aug 2016 #93
ProfessorGAC Aug 2016 #95
Codeine Aug 2016 #96
Cairycat Aug 2016 #97
jmg257 Aug 2016 #99
HerrKarlMarx Aug 2016 #101
lindysalsagal Aug 2016 #102

Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 02:30 PM

1. No. Of course not.

The thing was silly enough before "under God" was added to it, an addition I remember very well indeed. It's nothing but secular idolatry, and no one should be required to recite it.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 02:33 PM

2. this was ruled unconstitutional in 1943 and rightly so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette

it's an obvious violation of free speech.


it actually has nothing to do with the "under god" part, which didn't get put in until 1954 (although that would be its own problem as well).

the pledge is a pledge to a *flag*, symbol, thus presenting a problem for jehovah's witnesses.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 02:33 PM

3. Not in a democracy, no. nt

 

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 02:34 PM

4. Old fashioned thing that should be done away with

What effect does it really have? Things said by rote do not mean we are really believing them.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 02:40 PM

5. NO

I stopped in the 7th grade in protest of the Vietnam War (I lived on a military base) and never was challenged once. I'm sick of chickenhawks trying to force feed their brand of hypocrisy down everyone's throats. Likely I would've been in more trouble when I tore that note up and threw it in the trash can, had someone tried to pull that crap on me

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 02:41 PM

6. As a standard practice in primary schools, it seems benign at worst

 

As a standard practice in primary schools, it seems benign at worst; and allowing for an opt-out seems an appropriate reponse (though I predicate this on the original Pledge rather than the new & improved, tastes great, less filling Pledge edited to more effectively smack the dirty, godless Commies down).

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 02:42 PM

7. it used to require the arm held at a 45 degree angle

it was dropped after the Nazis used it in their pledge

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 02:42 PM

8. The "Pledge" can be challenged. When Congress passed, and Eisenhower signed, the adding of words.

 

Those two words "under God" were added for political reasons as this country was still recovering from WWII and entering the Cold War with the USSR. If that "Florida man" doesn't understand that, then he didn't learn much in school. What is happening to our country is that people have had enough of the religions of others being pushed upon them. I am a Christian and find the actions of people like that guy to be messed up.

I was flipping channels a few nights ago and on one of the church channels were a couple of guys talking about how religion shaped out country. More to the point, how Christianity was embedded in our Constitution. Those two were making stuff up and passing it along as fact. Another example of people not learning much in school. it bother me to no end how people are so concerned about children learning about God and religion in school, but neglecting to accept that it is the parents responsibility to take their kids to church and Sunday School.

The words of that guy are the dumbest thing I have ever read and I an ashamed that he lives in the US.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 02:45 PM

9. No.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 02:47 PM

10. It's not clear to me

Did Florida man think it was dumb because he knows the Supreme Court ruled on this in 1943, and he's appalled that 73 years later some school administrators still haven't figured it out? Or does he think it's dumb that some people might choose to opt out of a meaningless gesture of ersatz patriotism that's near and dear to his mean little heart?

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Response to gratuitous (Reply #10)


Response to gratuitous (Reply #10)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 08:34 PM

68. This shoudl make it clear:

"I was shocked when I saw the waiver because it comes across as if schools are now promoting the opt out in some sense. Just because it's a law, doesn't make it right. Laws are passed all the time where people are unaware. My hope is that this post brings attention to people so that maybe the same policy to send out the waivers doesn't pass in another state. Sadly, our American values and traditions are whittling away...What's next? No American flags in schools?? Will future Presidents (Republican or Democrat) be forced to quit saying "God Bless America" at the end of his/her speeches?
And for those few ignorants that believe wars are fought for the right to protest the pledge, I'd like to see those people go to a VFW or American Legion meeting and when the pledge is started, stand up and tell them that...good luck with that."

(From his facebook page)

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #68)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 11:43 PM

87. Actually I suspected it was the second one

I just wanted to give Florida man the benefit of the doubt. It never works out.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 02:51 PM

11. No

In Florida, as I understand it, the student can be required to stand during the Pledge but cannot be required to say it.

True story: during my youngest's junior year in HS, the principal had a patriotism push. The well-meaning but really tone deaf TV production students produced a "stand and say the Pledge" video that acted out scenarios where kids were bullied and shamed if they didn't. This during a highly publicized "no bullying" campaign.

Son was horrified by the video and from that moment, refused to stand for the pledge. SO, who works at that school, and I supported his stance. SO got complaints from a few teachers but most just let him be. Once SO explained why son was doing this, they left him alone too.

Forced patriotism is not patriotism.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 02:52 PM

12. no.

 

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 02:57 PM

13. NO n/t

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 02:59 PM

14. They can be exempted if they wear a flag lapel pin

and sing the Star Spangled Banner at recess.

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Response to milestogo (Reply #14)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 04:32 PM

25. And can tap dance to "I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandy".

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Response to trof (Reply #25)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 04:37 PM

28. And they will be tested on how well they can do a 'buck and wing'

while coming down a flight of stairs.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 03:02 PM

15. No. Even if we remove the words "under god,"

it's intrinsically fascist. We are a free citizens, and our nation belongs to us, not us to it.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #15)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 07:32 PM

58. Hardly.

Eminent domain.

Child protective services.

Mandatory K-12 with mandatory vaccinations in order to not break the law.

Taxes.

Draft/registration.

And that's not the more extremist views on how to restrict, limit, abolish various amendments or impose confiscatory types of income and wealth taxes.

In many cases, your person, your family, your property, your income is considered to belong to "we the people," which effectively means "the state." If you disagree, nice federal marshals or FBI agents will show up with guns to enforce our freedoms.

Most of this will be decreed to be just and right given what the state does for us. Therefore, it must reason, we should owe our allegiance and fealty to the state.

Oddly, the pledge is something that isn't included in this. It's just words, not substance, and that we can object to as Really Important. Substance, not so important. We're post-enlightenment, post-modernist.

Whether you think all those restrictions and requirements are good or bad, saying that "the nation belongs to us" only works if you happen to be in the majority on a whole host of issues. For many of those, there is no actual majority.

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Response to Igel (Reply #58)

Wed Aug 24, 2016, 03:57 AM

89. Well, you're very sincere, but I couldn't disagree more

that only imaginary libertarian paradises would not be fascist states. When we protect children from being beaten to death by their parents, we are not protecting the state's investment in a future worker, we are protecting the child.

But, let's not argue this one, shall we--not?

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 03:04 PM

16. A permission slip should not be needed.

If a student does not want to do the pledge for whatever reason they wish, they should not be compelled to do so. A lot of teachers have problems with it too, and don't even mention it in class. I only had one or two teachers in public school who did the pledge. Most teachers obviously thought it was a waste of valuable class time.

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Response to LuvNewcastle (Reply #16)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 10:44 PM

86. ^ this right here. nt

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Response to LuvNewcastle (Reply #16)

Wed Aug 24, 2016, 08:01 AM

94. In the late 1960s I stopped reciting the pledge to protest the Vietnam War

But being a bit shy about things and knowing that my parents wouldn't back me up, I would simply stand in the classroom with the other students and not say anything. A boy who was Jehovah's Witness made a big deal out of leaving the classroom anytime something was happening that his religion forbid. That provided some cover for someone who was literally silently objecting.

I still don't ever recite the pledge of allegiance, or sing in groups (no one would WANT me to!) or say prayers of any kind.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 03:06 PM

17. OMGerd, next thing ya know, the kids won't have to learn cursive writing1!!1!!

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Response to KG (Reply #17)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 05:40 PM

43. Many schools have already stopped teaching cursive. It's moronic

Because it is proven that kids who learn cursive do better. The act of cursive writing is technically a form of art. Spacial, shape and orientation are technical aspects of art.

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Response to Exilednight (Reply #43)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 08:28 PM

66. Albeit off topic, absolutely the truth. It requires/activates brain functions. Same with learning a

 

foreign language.

Not only was cursive handwriting considered archaic, I was near apoplectic when they required my son to write "papers" on the computer and to use Spell Check before submitting, thus he never had a spelling class. (California in the 90s)

Fortunately I had taught him phonics before he went to 1st grade, because that was considered archaic, as well. I think they've gone back to that, somewhat.

Then they said he needed to bring a calculator to class before he had learned basic "old fashioned" math. I remedied that, and he scored exceptionally high in math.

Oh, and he never did a book report...ever. I asked his 5th grade teacher about it and he said they just don't do that anymore. they were just so busy. He never learned the love of reading for pleasure.

Also, No Homework. WTF??? Too much time to check.

As to the Pledge, I come from a time when it was sheer respect. Not mandatory, not argued over...just respect paid for a free country. No more, no less. Kind of like waving to your neighbor. In my classroom, we did it every day...routine, not a mandate...like a prayer before the sermon, or something like that. Just what happened.

Same with homework. If nothing else, it helps interested parents to contribute to their child's education.

There was also a time when no man wore a hat inside. It was considered respectful to whatever or wherever he was. It's not a coincidence that soldiers remove their hats and place them on their hearts.

Time marches on and changes happen. Some for the better, some not.



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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 03:08 PM

18. I never did.

First we were Jehovah Witnesses, then we were Quaker.

My mom got kicked out of the Witnesses because she couldn't stay out of politics.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 03:27 PM

19. No, all should be required to at least stand quietly & respectfully while the class does.

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Response to WillowTree (Reply #19)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 04:05 PM

21. I believe the SC has already decided this issue.

I can't remember the case name, but IIRC, they ruled that a child may not be compelled to stand, change position, bow the head, etc.

Doesn't stop teachers and principals from either booting kids from the room, thereby singling them out, or forcing them to stand. It would take a very few minutes for these professionals to learn about the decisions made by the Supreme Court on this topic.

As you may surmise, I am against requiring those who opt out for any reason to participate in any way.

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Response to July (Reply #21)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 04:46 PM

33. True. Heaven forbid that kids should be taught to show respect for the Country they live in.

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Response to WillowTree (Reply #33)


Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #54)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 08:39 PM

70. I already said I didn't think that kids should be forced to say the pledge.

Just to be respectful while others who choose to, do.

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Response to WillowTree (Reply #70)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 08:49 PM

76. well, they can't be. But I agree they shouldn't disrupt other people doing it.

But having been an Atheist 9 year old who would mumble shit like "Under Bob", I highly doubt that it's the non-pledge sayers who are causing any ruckus around this.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #76)

Wed Aug 24, 2016, 09:24 AM

98. Well, that's just childish and stupid.

...having been an Atheist 9 year old who would mumble shit like "Under Bob"...


Do you think Bob approves of your behavior? I bet he doesn't. Your actions are, in fact, quite unBobly.

Evil Bobless heathen!

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Response to Dr. Strange (Reply #98)

Wed Aug 24, 2016, 02:53 PM

100. SLACK!

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Response to WillowTree (Reply #33)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 07:28 PM

56. Respect is earned not automatically granted.

Imagine a President Trump. No way in hell I would stand up and recite the Pledge of Allegience under a Trump admnistration which will be Hitler V. 2.0.

Nor do I participate when someone offers a prayer at some function in the State Agency that I work for.

Separation of church and state - what on earth is that in a red state.

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Response to WillowTree (Reply #33)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 07:28 PM

57. What about kids whose nation disrespects them?

 

why should the minority children stand or the atheist children stand respectfully for a nation that has treated them most foul? people should be respected and free to not participate in phony patriotism. This Country has work to do in respecting all citizens equally, so, I think no one should pledge until we have full equality here, anything less is jut plain rude to those who are not treated as a part of this nation.

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Response to WillowTree (Reply #33)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 07:54 PM

64. This country respects freedom of religion or from it surprise ! Jehovah witness etc are allowed here

Hades forbid it's true

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Response to WillowTree (Reply #33)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 08:46 PM

75. And what is "the Country"? Is it the rocks? The dirt? The map? The road system? Flag design?

I would say no, it's the values enshrined in its foundational documents.

Starting with this one:


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Response to WillowTree (Reply #33)

Mon Sep 19, 2016, 10:26 PM

103. Heaven forbid children should be forced to participate in a forced nationalistic ritual.

"respect for the ountry" is a cop-out. We supposedly have freedom of conscience. Even if we do support the ideals of the constitution, we are not compelled to psrticipate in nationalistic rituals.

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Response to July (Reply #103)

Mon Sep 19, 2016, 10:28 PM

104. "country" nt

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Response to WillowTree (Reply #19)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 04:34 PM

27. Why should they stand?

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Response to trof (Reply #27)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 04:46 PM

30. Just my opinion, which is as valid as anyone else's.

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Response to WillowTree (Reply #30)


Response to WillowTree (Reply #30)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 08:44 PM

74. So they should stand because you say so?

What a well thought out and reasonable position.

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Response to WillowTree (Reply #30)

Mon Sep 19, 2016, 10:30 PM

105. Read the SC decisions to learn why. Nt

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Response to WillowTree (Reply #19)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 07:44 PM

62. I didn't stand. I read quietly.

It added immensely to my reputation as a weird kid, which I was.

But whose shit-list would you rather be on?

Patriotic U.S. America, or GOD?

Life in the U.S.A. is a temporary and frequently accidental situation. But GOD is forever.

I don't remember choosing to be born in California to a religiously insane pacifist mom, but it made me very resistant to vapid and utterly empty displays of patriotism.







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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 03:35 PM

20. No, nobody should.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 04:07 PM

22. Tmes change

This is from a 1940 Associated Press article

Adopt New Salute in Pledge to Flag - Pittsburgh (AP)1940

Because of complaints from parents and patriotic societies that the outstretched arm salute duplicated the salute of dictator nations, Pittsburgh public school children have abandoned that gesture in pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes.

Dr. E.A. Dimmick, associate superintendent of schools, said a semi-military salute, with the right hand held to the forehead above the right eye, has been adopted as the standard form.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 04:09 PM

23. No

Do government officialsxsndvtroopscreat their oaths to protect an defend the constitution every day?

Do you repeat your marriage how's every day?

Do doctors repeat their Hippocratic oath every day?

There's no reason to repeat the pledge of allegiance every day. Or at sll, for that matter.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 04:14 PM

24. I was in grade school in the 50's

and I think we said the Pledge of Allegiance every morning before school started. I don't think we said any prayers.

I don't think it hurt me.

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Response to leftyladyfrommo (Reply #24)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 05:19 PM

39. Did you practice duck and cover in case of an air raid?





Its very patriotic.

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Response to milestogo (Reply #39)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 06:58 PM

48. I did. "Under God" was not in the Pledge then,

either.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 04:33 PM

26. No.

I'm a teacher, and I do not do either. I DO, though, stand quietly. If I didn't, I'd be "counseled," and later, if I didn't shape up, written up. I don't think that should be okay, either.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 04:42 PM

29. No way

We had to pledge allegiance for citizenship that includes a references to a superstitious (non)entity called "god". So ridiculous. This country is allowing that when its supposed to be separate church and state?

Who do they think they are fooling?

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 04:46 PM

31. NO....!!!

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 04:46 PM

32. No. It infringes on the First Amendment on two fronts.

1. Free Speech.

2. Religion - as some religions consider this idol worship.

Aside from that, forced patriotism is so very Nazi/Stalinist. Is has no business in a free country.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 04:49 PM

34. They should also have to say "UNDER GOD" extra loud to prove they mean it.

I actually saw this happen at a Parent-Teacher fund raising event at my kid's elementary school a few years back.

At the start, they asked all the parents to say the Pledge. So we all get up and start saying it. No big deal, right.

But then, a small group of the parents, maybe 8-10 of them up in the front ... screamed "UNDER GOD" when we all reached that part of the Pledge. It was clearly something they'd planned.

It was one of the most ridiculous things I'd ever seen a parent do in an elementary school, and I've seen lots of ridiculous parent behavior over they years.

When the pledge was over, those parents were all very very excited, and very proud of themselves.

At the same time, just loud enough for those around me to hear it ... I said, "I guess they think their all powerful God is hard of hearing."

Which resulted in a wave of giggles and chuckles that rippled forward, as people heard and repeated what I said. By the time the chuckles reached those parents, and they heard why people were laughing, their happy faces turned to angry scowls as they then scanned the crowed for the evil one who dared blaspheme.

It was a glorious evening.


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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #34)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 05:13 PM

36. Good story.

I hope they felt ridiculous - because they were.

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Response to Chemisse (Reply #36)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 05:18 PM

38. I was happy when it didn't happen again at the next PTA meeting.

The same parents who hate the idea of kid's "opting out" of the Pledge, are the same parents who are THRILLED that they can "opt out" their kids out of sex education classes too.

And the same fools, who generally hate public school teachers, want those same teachers to be required to teach their kids religion in science class.

Crack pots.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #38)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 10:16 PM

85. and a lot of them are anti-vaccer's also

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #34)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 05:19 PM

40. Oh the irony.....

A story from the Bible has Elijah taunting a bunch of prophets of Baal, telling them to pray louder, maybe your god is sleeping.

And of course, there is Christ who says, don't be a hypocrite and practice your piety in public.

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Response to Xolodno (Reply #40)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 05:30 PM

42. Good observations ...

I think for these folks ... the Pledge ... and the UNDER GOD part ... are nothing more than public displays of piety intended to demonstrate the moral superiority of these fine upstanding Christian patriots.





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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #34)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 06:09 PM

44. Stay tuned JoePhilly...

You'll want to catch the exciting conclusion!





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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #34)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 08:44 PM

73. Exactly. He's Deaf in one ear.

But aside from that, completely omnipotent.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 04:52 PM

35. No, individuals should not be required to do it.

I wish it wasn't a common practice because it's about as meaningful as flag lapels and "freedom fries."

I'm not surprised at all that FOX News would cover it. It's their typical superficial "rah rah" BS like the supposed war on Christmas.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 05:15 PM

37. NO.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 05:21 PM

41. the pledge is a meaningless and futile gesture.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 06:11 PM

45. No (nt)

 

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 06:22 PM

46. No, and the child should not need parental permission to opt out.

If it's so important to their parents, they can recite it at home.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 06:31 PM

47. Absolutely not. Loyalty oaths are the antithesis of what it means to be an American.

Our loyalty should be to freedom and American ideals that promote the greater good. The pledge of allegiance is soulless. I would prefer a pledge to live and die by the principles of free will, autonomy, and free speech. You would not be required to say it, however (otherwise, that would be almost comical in its hypocrisy).

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 07:01 PM

49. Freedom of speech include freedom to be silent

as well.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 07:08 PM

50. NO






Tikki

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Response to True Dough (Original post)


Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #51)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 08:38 PM

69. The high school civics I studied

were Canadian. I live north of the border.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 07:15 PM

52. Not unless they are so moved.

I stopped for a while in school after the My Lia massacre photos came out. Got in trouble. They called my parents. My parents told them to leave me alone, that I was hurting.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 07:33 PM

59. I will go further

I would have no problem if it was banned from public events altogether. right after prayers are banned. ant THAT needs to be done immediately. I don't go to school, public, or government functions to pray.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)


Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #60)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 08:39 PM

71. Is this directed at me as the OP?

I don't want to be reactionary, but I do want to be sure what your intent is.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 07:43 PM

61. it was passed by a republican legislature and signed by a republican governor

did they mention that?

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 07:49 PM

63. No

But why is the uncle sticking his nose in?

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 08:20 PM

65. When we were in school



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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 08:32 PM

67. Just to add some to the mix......

Why do we have to do the National Anthem at the beginning of EVERY sporting event?

(INCOMING!!!!!)

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 08:42 PM

72. Sure, how better to inculcate respect for our constitutional values of freedom of speech/conscience

than forcing recitation of a loyalty oath?



Short answer, no- and they can't be. Period. End of discussion.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 08:52 PM

77. Of course not

My sticking point was, first, the "under god" line. How can you go through the motions without being a hypocrite? And if the government forces you to be a hypocrite, what does that say about our alleged Freedom?

My second sticking point is the notion of heart-felt allegiance to a national entity. I do appreciate many things about our country, and objectively I wouldn't have a problem with saying we have a great country...but nevertheless I reserve the right to doubt and dissent.

I am a living being first, descendant of a long line of life that survived every challenge through millenia; then I'm a member of the human species, which has flourished for a variety of good and questionable reasons; then I belong to a particular geographically defined nation-state. The last part isn't the most important.

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Response to bhikkhu (Reply #77)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 09:01 PM

78. I dig that last paragraph

Well stated!

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 09:04 PM

79. No one is compelled to swear oaths. This is America

 


There are all sorts of religious sects - most of them Christian - who object to taking oaths.

I believe it was the Jehovah's Witlesses who established the controlling precedent on religious objections to compelled oaths administered to children by the state.

No, we don't do that in this country. It is not what we are about.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 09:12 PM

80. Hell no

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 09:22 PM

81. Hell no, and a waiver is stupid.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 09:30 PM

82. No they should not be required!

When I was a boy my parents forbade us from holding our hand on our heart, or says no the pledge. Now they did this for religious reasons which I do not agree with, but I'm against mandatory participation.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 09:42 PM

83. It's such a HUGE waste of time

None of those kids think about what they're saying, care about what they're saying, or are doing anything other daydreaming.

The Pledge of Allegiance doesn't make anyone more allegiant. It's not like there are a bunch of 10th graders out there thinking "Death to America! Oh wait, now that I've renewed my daily vow of allegiance, I no longer feel disloyal."

Plus, loyalty oaths are authoritarian nonsense.

A much better use of that time (including our minute of silence following the pledge) would be to allow me to tell the kids an interesting story about a great American. That would inspire some patriotism, not some mindless chant.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Tue Aug 23, 2016, 10:07 PM

84. I don't think we should be saying the pledge at all

saying the pledge, specially with hand over heart breeds a sense of nationalism that is not healthy. This is how the Nazi party started, by idolatry of a piece of cloth.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2016, 02:42 AM

88. Hell no. This was settled by the Supreme Court 73 years ago.

From Justice Jackson's opinion in West Virginia State Bd. of Educ. v Barnette, 319 U. S. 624, 640-642 (1943):

Struggles to coerce uniformity of sentiment in support of some end thought essential to their time and country have been waged by many good, as well as by evil, men. Nationalism is a relatively recent phenomenon, but, at other times and places, the ends have been racial or territorial security, support of a dynasty or regime, and particular plans for saving souls. As first and moderate methods to attain unity have failed, those bent on its accomplishment must resort to an ever-increasing severity. As governmental pressure toward unity becomes greater, so strife becomes more bitter as to whose unity it shall be. Probably no deeper division of our people could proceed from any provocation than from finding it necessary to choose what doctrine and whose program public educational officials shall compel youth to unite in embracing. Ultimate futility of such attempts to compel coherence is the lesson of every such effort from the Roman drive to stamp out Christianity as a disturber of its pagan unity, the Inquisition, as a means to religious and dynastic unity, the Siberian exiles as a means to Russian unity, down to the fast failing efforts of our present totalitarian enemies. Those who begin coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard.

It seems trite but necessary to say that the First Amendment to our Constitution was designed to avoid these ends by avoiding these beginnings. There is no mysticism in the American concept of the State or of the nature or origin of its authority. We set up government by consent of the governed, and the Bill of Rights denies those in power any legal opportunity to coerce that consent. Authority here is to be controlled by public opinion, not public opinion by authority.

The case is made difficult not because the principles of its decision are obscure, but because the flag involved is our own. Nevertheless, we apply the limitations of the Constitution with no fear that freedom to be intellectually and spiritually diverse or even contrary will disintegrate the social organization. To believe that patriotism will not flourish if patriotic ceremonies are voluntary and spontaneous, instead of a compulsory routine, is to make an unflattering estimate of the appeal of our institutions to free minds. We can have intellectual individualism and the rich cultural diversities that we owe to exceptional minds only at the price of occasional eccentricity and abnormal attitudes. When they are so harmless to others or to the State as those we deal with here, the price is not too great. But freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order.

If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion, or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2016, 07:28 AM

90. No, I think kids should be able to refuse

to participate on their own. It shouldn't be a big deal either. Just let them not do it if they don't want to. Don't make a big fuss out of someone not doing it and move on. I didn't do it back when I was in school in the 80's and 90's. It never was an issue then. People like to make a big stink over small stuff these days.

I also think kids should be able to wear hats in school. The no hats rule is some old rule that no one understands anymore. It is supposed to be disrespectful to wear a hat. No one can explain how. Makes no sense. I think people offended by a simple baseball cap are the ones that need to change and just deal with it. People have heads and put hats on them sometimes.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2016, 07:31 AM

91. I agree that this is stupid...

...you shouldn't have to fill out a form to exercise your constitutional rights.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2016, 07:39 AM

92. If they need to memorize something

How about the 1st Amendment?

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2016, 07:50 AM

93. No.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2016, 08:05 AM

95. No. It's Silly

They just become parrots about it anyway. Nobody is actually paying attention to what they're saying. Been like that for decades.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2016, 08:32 AM

96. I stopped doing that in fifth or sixth grade.

 

No teacher ever bothered me about it -- perhaps they assumed a religious objection. Occasionally fellow students called me out but I had very few fucks to give back then.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2016, 08:42 AM

97. Absolutely not.

As a family who has religious objections to saying the Pledge, we instructed our children that they should not place their hand over their heart and not recite the Pledge. We told them they did not need to stand up, but they all chose to do so. Our daughter was bullied for her refusal, but our boys were not - their classmates either were respectful, tolerant, or inobservent of their difference. This was only in elementary school. In our district, the Pledge is not recited in secondary school.

In July 2002 (so note, less than a year after the attacks on the World Trade Center and other sites), we attended a Minnesota Twins game in Minneapolis. When the national anthem was played, we stood up to indicate our respect but did not place our hands on our hearts. The vast majority of people around us remained seated and continued talking through it. That told me that people often only make an issue of these patriotic displays when someone goes against the grain.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2016, 11:44 AM

99. Nope - let them fill out the form, then sick the NSA on them. Watch lists are cool!

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2016, 02:55 PM

101. How valuable is a pledge when it is forced by the threat of punishment?

 

doesn't mean much when some is putting a [figurative] gun to your head.

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Response to True Dough (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2016, 08:36 PM

102. When the visiting Japanese students do it I feel terrible.

They're here for 3 years as their fathers learn banking. None of them are Americans and none are staying.

I cringe.

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