Sorry for your loss, but no one else is responsible.

[63splitwindow]

Lawsuit filed by family of Arizona shooting instructor accidentally killed by girl with Uzi

" His death at the hands of a 9-year-old girl holding a Uzi set off a powerful discussion about young children and guns.

In the video, firearms instructor Charles Vacca of Lake Havasu City is standing next to the girl as her parents stand by recording what would be the final moments of his life.

The girl braces the Uzi submachine gun and opens fire at a black-silhouette target off in the distance. The recoil wrenches the full automatic weapon upward and to the left, and Vacca is shot in the head.
...
..."

entire article at: http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2016/08/24/lawsuit-filed-family-az-shooting-instructor-accidentally-killed-girl-uzi/89268868/

[Ilsa]

1. Good God. They are blaming the child and her family?

This is the instructor's fault. He should be able to assess whether a kid has the strength and maturity to handle such a weapon.

[MrScorpio]

3. I blame the parents as well.

Apparently everyone there was too reckless with a deadly firearm for their own good.

[skepticscott]

14. Even if the range didn't have a specific age requirement

The instructor should have known better, and should have told the parents that it wasn't safe for someone so young to fire a powerful automatic weapon. If the range had insisted that he go along if the parents wanted it, he should have quit and reported the practice to the police.

[MrScorpio]

15. I can dig that. nt

[LanternWaste]

6. I think the instructor's family is suing the gun-range's owners

I think the instructor's family is suing the gun-range's owners (but honestly, it took some tortuous reading on my part to get to that in the story).

[shireen]

24. you're right

Also, the instructor's kids sent the young girl a letter and video to help her through that trauma. They're also working with two Dem legislators to introduce legislation to keep guns out of anyone under 16 years, under any circumstances.

[LanternWaste]

66. The children's letter is a very nice sentiment, and were I in the place of the shooter

The children's letter is a very nice sentiment, and were I in the place of the shooter, I believe it's something I as a child would value much more than the eventual outcome of any civil suit or trial.

Heaven only knows that the young lady could give tuppence about litigation or legislation, and most likely places so much unwarranted blame and responsibility on herself, regardless of what the immediate future may hold. Those who sent the letter may be saving her so much additional heart-break.

[Drahthaardogs]

67. Why everyone? I grew up hunting and living on a ranch with over 500 head of cattle

We kids kind of new guns were not toys. I have a different view of horses than most and I am pretty careful around tractors and power take offs too. When you live with shit that can kill you every day(and sometimes does) you are pretty careful.

Soldiers do not get to go full auto in their training until the very end. It was a bad bad bad idea and too many adults went along with it. Obviously being 16 or 55 is irrelevant. If you are too stupid to handle to a gun you are too stupid to handle a gun.

[Egnever]

42. No they aren't

What gave you that idea?

According to Vacca's family attorneys, the suit states the owners and operators at the Last Stop outdoor shooting range in White Hills were negligent in Vacca's Aug. 25, 2014 death, stating the Uzi wasn't a safe or appropriate weapon to entrust to a young girl and caused her to lose control of the weapon.

[Orrex]

2. If only the idiot instructor had been armed...

[Unrepentant Fenian]

4. Now THAT was funny! Thank you!

[skepticscott]

5. Once again, the media calls a gun death an "accident"

when it is nothing of the kind. Not even carelessness. Blatant stupidity and criminal conduct by the deceased. Fortunately, he was the only victim...it could have been much worse.

[bluedigger]

11. I'd say the 9 year old girl was a victim, too.

I would imagine blowing a guy's head off while he's standing next to you could be a mite traumatizing for a child.

[63splitwindow]

12. I agree. The lawsuit will keeps her wounds wide open also.

[skepticscott]

16. At least she's alive

But yes, the long term may not be pleasant for her, either.

[uncle ray]

18. it is interesting that OHSA is investigating this as an "Industrial Accident".

OHSA can regulate common items item within the workplace that are not regulated elsewhere. OHSA could, in theory at least, determine that certain types of guns within a workplace are a danger to employees and mandate that any employer who allows them, provides proper protection for their employees. according to workplace legend, it only took one guy who had a air nozzle shoved up his rectum for OHSA to regulate air nozzles within industry.

[63splitwindow]

20. "it only took one guy who had a air nozzle shoved up his rectum for OHSA to regulate air nozzles...

within industry."

That sure sounds like an urban myth. Pressurized air nozzles can pose potential dangers in normal usage as well.

[Warren DeMontague]

53. Yeah, but when some dad in Nebraska eats his adult son's pot brownies and swears at the cat

It's a fucking URGENT PUBLIC HEALTH CRISIS ZOMG POT

http://www.omaha.com/news/metro/omaha-dad-finds-pot-brownies-eats-of-them-says-mean/article_385099cc-649c-11e6-86a8-4728d60cb7fe.html

[LanternWaste]

65. I think accident is most accurate.

I think accident is most accurate. "an undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss..." What happened seems to fit well within that meaning.

Even the trendy skeptic cannot successfully change the meaning of words to suit a bias or an emotion...

[skepticscott]

74. Sorry, flawed and shitty definition

"Unintentional" does not equate to "accidental". An action can still be criminal, even if the result of the action was not intended.

Try again. And next time you presume to be condescending, you might want to make sure you know what the fuck you're talking about.

[mike_c]

7. the range owners were undoubtedly negligent...

...but the girl's parents were present too and they did not intervene. I do agree that the instructor bears primary responsibility-- he put the weapon on automatic, and he put it into the hands of a young child. He failed to step into a safe(r) position behind the shooter. What possible reason is there for encouraging a nine year old to fire an automatic weapon?

[xocet]

22. Is there actually a "safe" position other than far away if a 9-year-old has an Uzi on automatic? n/t

[gratuitous]

8. The instructor's survivors are suing the shooting range and its owners

Seems appropriate to me to have a court of law sort things out. Go through the discovery process, find out why the shooting range thought it was a good idea to provide its customers with automatic weapons; what rules and safeguards they had in place to minimize the chances of such a horrific "accident"; whether those rules and safeguards were followed; and whether they knew or should have known that a nine-year-old girl would kill the instructor while fulfilling her lifelong dream of shooting an fully automatic weapon.*

I can't imagine that the owners of the shooting range would be anything but 100% forthcoming and transparent about all of this, but I can't argue with the Vacca family's decision to file suit and put the muscle of the legal system behind finding out for sure if the defendants are telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

*After Charles Vacca's death, the girl's parents were quoted as saying that it has been their little girl's lifelong dream to fire an automatic weapon.

[LonePirate]

23. So she had been fantasizing for 9 years about firing an Uzi and not a six shooter, per se?

Sounds like CPS should remove the girl from her parents' home for her safety (or maybe for theirs).

[hunter]

9. Yay, guns!

The NRA ought to create a Chris Kyle medal of achievement they can award to families like this.

[Skittles]

10. gun humpers never take responsibility

it's part of their cowardice

[AngryAmish]

13. Isn't an Uzi really hard for a grown man to handle?

I am not a gun guy but I have read that uzis are very hard too keep aimed on full auto.

[ileus]

19. I have a friend 14yr marine vet with two tours in Iraq who will agree with you.

While he is a scrawny little runt of a grunt, he did have a hard time shooting one of our Coworkers uzi's (class III dealer) in his youtube video the little gun is pushing him back good.

[Exilednight]

38. its size prevents it from having a decent recoil spring to

accommodate its rate of fire. With a firing rate of 10 rounds per second with a 9mm roumd, it produces a lot of force.

[ileus]

17. Awful accident but the instructor was at fault.

[PJMcK]

21. The instructor was the professional at the shooting range

It was the instructor's job, perhaps his primary responsibility, to make certain that the use of the weapon was safe. I'm not interested in guns but the instructor was the professional at the range. Perhaps he should have knelt behind the 9 year old girl and supported her. The reason he is dead is that the girl couldn't control the recoil of the weapon.

Watch this clip from "The West Wing" (I know, is TV!) and move the video to about 1:00.

My point is that the actor Allison Janney who portrayed C.J. Gregg on the TV show is 6 feet tall and a hand gun knocked her on her ass. In reality, that was a realistic scene. Somehow, that a professional firearms instructor would allow a 9-year old girl to shoot an automatic weapon by herself stretches credibility.

Objectively, it seems that this was a tremendous lapse of judgment by the instructor.

[Flyboy_451]

25. Realistic? Not even a little bit!!

While I'm sure it was entertaining for some viewers, that clip is so far removed from reality as to be truly moronic! Assuming the firearm to be a .357 Magnum (appears to be a Smith and Wesson 686) and assuming it is firing full power ammunition, which would be foolish to do with an inexperienced shooter, you would be feeling a free recoil energy of about 8 lb/ft and a recoil impulse of about 1 lb/sec. Hardly enough to knock a full grown adult to the ground.

Having said all that, handing a full auto micro Uzi to a nine year old little girl is even dumber than that video clip. Poor judgement by the parents, the business owner and the instructor, with the instructor at more fault than anyone. Evaluating a students ability to engage in any task is a fundamental of any kind of instruction, whether it be firing a gun, driving a car, or knitting. It was his role and responsibility to be the one to say "no".

JW

[PJMcK]

30. Of course, you're correct, Flyboy

The video clip from "The West Wing" was intended as light humor. But whatever the handgun was, it certainly could have that effect on an untrained shooter. And please notice that I indicated that the video clip was from a fictional TV show.

Regardless, your second paragraph illustrates that we're in complete agreement about what happened at the shooting range.

[Flyboy_451]

35. The first paragraph was in response to

Your comment about it being realistic. Primarily because there is already far too much misinformation about guns put out by both sides of the issue. Not saying that you were intentionally doing so, but no reason to add to it, IMO. While you may have been aware of the inaccuracy of the clip, others here very likely would have taken your comment as gospel.

JW

[Rex]

73. That's it right there, it might not be pretty but it is the truth.

The instructor failed at his job and sadly lost his life as a result.

[OldRedneck]

26. There is SO-O-O-O-O-O much of The Stupid in this incident

When this incident was first reported I just shook my head at The Stupid.

I'm an old guy -- 71 -- 28 years in the Army as an infantry officer. I have fired a lot of small arms from pistols up to .50 caliber machine guns, including an Uzi. I fired the Uzi once and will not touch it again. I don't give a rat's ass what the Israelis or anyone else says, it's too damn hard to hold on target.

All firearms have recoil. The bigger the cartridge, the more recoil. A .22-cal rifle, for example, has so little recoil you don't notice it. A .30-cal rifle will kick your shoulder and, if you don't have your face pressed against the stock, it will slap you in the face and leave a black eye. The Uzi is a 9mm firearm . . . it kicks.

With a weapon that fires one round at a time, the recoil slaps you, maybe pushes your shoulder back, causes the muzzle end of the weapon to rise, but, that's all.

The problem with a full-auto weapon is that the recoil never stops . . . each round causes the weapon to kick and because it's firing 1-2 rounds per second each round causes the muzzle end of the weapon to rise and rise and rise causing the weapon to "climb" up and to the left/right, depending on the direction of twist in the rifling.

You can get a grip on a rifle fired full-auto because the rifle is long -- if you're right-handed, your left hand extends out most of the length of the barrel, giving you leverage to hold the barrel down as it tries to climb. Still, it's all I (6'1", 200 lbs, bench press 285) can do to control an old M-14 or even an M-16 on full-auto -- damn thing climbs and climbs and it's a wrestling match to hold it somewhere on target. That's why the current infantry rifles have a selector switch allowing them to be fired one round at a time, a burst of three, or, full auto. Most troops keep it on burst . . . that puts a lot of lead in the air but allows you to keep the weapon pretty much on target.

Still, if you haven't been trained in how to fire a full-auto weapon, you have no business touching one.

An Uzi is a short weapon . . . you have very little leverage to hold the damn thing when it's on full-auto. The whole purpose of the Uzi is to be able to spray a lot of bullets around in a short time. And that's exactly what the little girl did . . . pulled the trigger and hosed down the area.

Go to youtube and search for "full auto firing" and watch some of the videos. It ain't funny.

[Egnever]

43. Made me look

and you were right it wasn't funny at all.

[Binkie The Clown]

27. Killing. It's what guns are designed to do, so why be surprised when they do what they do? n/t

[HERVEPA]

29. For the win

[Hoyt]

32. ^^^ Yet all the gunners above --after telling us of their vast experience playing with lethal

weapons, as if anyone cares -- don't seem to get it. There is only one reason they are attracted to gunz. Daddy should have thought of this before inducting his little girl into the gun culture. The gun profiteers deserves plenty of blame too.

[friendly_iconoclast]

46. Which gunners would that be, Hoyt? Have the courage of your convictions and point them out.

Links will do, they're not considered call-outs.

[Hoyt]

49. LOL, like you don't recognize fellow gungeoneers and their usual gun defense posts.

[friendly_iconoclast]

56. Can we say 'prevarication' and 'evidence-free slurs'?

[forgotmylogin]

28. If no one is responsible

I guess guns DO kill people.

[63splitwindow]

31. Guns are tools some use to kill people. The thread title, though, says no one ELSE is responsible.

The instructor WAS the responsible party IMHO.

[Hoyt]

33. Daddy, introducing his daughter to lethal weapons, is to blame as well.

[63splitwindow]

34. Are you saying the instructor's family SHOULD be entitled to money damages from girl's Dad?

[Hoyt]

36. I don't care about damages, the gun fanciers in this story are to blame. If I were on jury,

would be glad to award dad's money. If there were some way to award it to Mom's Against Friggin Gun Nuts and Profiteers, I'd gladly cast my vote for that. Dad's who introduce their kids to gunz like this loser are a blight on society.

[63splitwindow]

39. Awarding it to family of the instructor? Do you not see him PRIMARILY at fault for his death?

[Hoyt]

41. Both at fault, but he's dead. This dad and the next dad need to think about the consequences of

introducing their kids to the "thrill" of shooting silhouette targets with lethal weapons.

[friendly_iconoclast]

45. Their kids might enjoy it and get good at it?

[Hoyt]

50. Good at what, shooting silhouette targets. What does that prepare them for, joining the local

militia hate groups, shooting a kid running away with the pink flamingo off the front lawn, etc.

[friendly_iconoclast]

57. Or training for self-defense. Do you prefer inaccuracy while shooting?

[Hoyt]

60. Dad and little girl were shooting targets resembling people AT A DISTANCE, not self-defense scenario

unless you are defending the compound perimeter from federal marshals or shooting people running away in the back. Sorry, you are wrong.

The gunners, george zimmerman murdering and unarmed skinny kid was self-defense.

[friendly_iconoclast]

61. Spare us your hypocrisy-you've defended shooting teenagers running away in the back...

...apparently because you didn't like their parents politics:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x417260

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=62782

gejohnston (16,869 posts) Response to Hoyt (Reply #88)
89. none of that is relevant

point is the marshal open fire after Sammy was fleeing
Sammy returned fire only after the marshal opened fire on him and the dog.

Sorry, you are the one with a problem with the facts. Trial transcripts are public records, go read it for yourself.

[Hoyt]

62. Ole ARMED Sammy, son of racist Randy Weaver, had just shot at fed Marshal who was killed.

Sammy wasn't unarmed and had just fired at a Federal Marshal who was killed. Your defense of armed terrorists, their racist parents, including daddy Randy charged with selling illegal guns to Aryan Nation, who planned to use guns to intimidate minorities, is about what I expect from gunners.

In fact, Federal Marshals still claim little Sammy was shot by his racist/terrorist dad in the battle. Federal Marshals had camped outside Weavers racist compound for weeks giving him every chance to surrender peacefully. Weaver decided to hide behind his family and even send his kid out to kill a Federal Marshal.

You don't have any problems with that, or george zimmerman?

Interesting you'd post a link from a gunner long ago tombstoned for right wing gun crud.

[jmg257]

64. How far where they shooting? Figure 9yrs old with an auto ain't gonna be too accurate at distance. n

[Hoyt]

68. Well, you are supposedly a gun expert, what does this look like to you. Not self-defense scenario.

Looks more like offensive scenario. Of course, silhouette is black. Hell of a way to have fun with a little girl. Someone needs to investigate his parenting skills.

[jmg257]

71. Definitely looks a bit far to expect her to hit anything specific - that seems like 50 yrds or so.

Not sure there was any scenario involved other then her having a backstop.

[63splitwindow]

37. Their new minimum age to shoot full auto is 12 years old. What could go wrong?

[Exilednight]

40. The same thing that could wrong when frat kids are allowed

To carry on campus.

I'm waiting for the first one of those stories.

[friendly_iconoclast]

44. "I'm waiting for the first one of those stories." I've been waiting for five years. So far, nada:

The following are from February 2011:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x382537

What *empirical* evidence do you have that legal CCW weapons at colleges are harmful?

And, yes, in this instance I am looking for confirmable media accounts.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x382537#382540

Just go dig up some news reports from Utah, Washington, Colorado
and other places where over 21 CCW holders can carry on campus, and post 'em here.

Don't forget to exclude the places like Virginia Tech, U. Alabama-Huntsville, etc. where it was illegal...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x382537#382562

I expected the pettifoggery and bafflegab. I thought there would be at least 1 legit reply by now.

It would appear that all those wailers of "OMG, there'll be blood in the study carrels" didn't actually have any evidence when they were busily predicting Armageddon At The Student Union.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x382537#382583

Let me guess: You just 'know' it's a bad idea, and will (somehow, for some unspecified reason)
result in bloodshed - without having any examples to point at from the colleges
and universities that already allow it

That about cover it?

[Exilednight]

51. No, that doesn't cover it.

It's going to happen. It just has not happened yet.

At some point some kid is going to get drunk and do something stupid. Then there will be kids who commit suicide, which the gun culture loons will never debate honestly because they don't see it as gun violence. It's self inflicted violence, but violence none the less.

[friendly_iconoclast]

55. So ten-plus years of nothing happening isn't enough empirical evidence for you?

Fine, you are perfectly entitled to your opinion- but please don't attempt to pass off
that opinion as one based on historical evidence.

[Exilednight]

58. it hasn't been ten plus years. you pull up some thread from

The past and attempt to use it as a way to make a point. There are plenty of gun violence crimes on campuses, and most states do not allow it. This will be Texas's first year allowing concealed weapons on state campuses and it's the largest major college state in the country. It's also the easiest to get a gun.

It only takes one incident to prove me right. And yes, people have committed suicide on campus with guns in CCW campuses.

[friendly_iconoclast]

59. There's so much wrong there, it begs for a fisking. Here goes:

(I)it hasn't been ten plus years.

Yes, it has- Utah has hid it since 2004, Colorado since 2003

There are plenty of gun violence crimes on campuses

None of it, apparently, by CCW permittees. If you know of such a case,
kindly provide a link to accounts of it.

(M)ost states do not allow it.

Which means what, exactly? Most states still don't have legal cannabis.

This will be Texas's first year allowing concealed weapons on state campuses and it's the largest major college state in the country. It's also the easiest to get a gun.

Texans with concealed carry permits are remarkably law abiding:

https://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl/reports/demographics.htm

http://www.dps.texas.gov/rsd/chl/reports/convrates.htm

And yes, people have committed suicide on campus with guns in CCW campuses.

Which campuses? How many of those suicides were by CCW holders? You haven't specified.












, and most states do not allow it.

[jmg257]

63. People have committed suicide on lots of campuses...

No guns involved.

What's ur point?

[Exilednight]

78. Guns actually account for the most suicides on campus.

Harvard did a study on this very issue.

[jmg257]

79. Since they are one of the top 2 schools re:suicide rates, its not surprising they did a study.

MIT seems to have the highest.

Considering guns lethality is a big factor in typical successful suicide, it's still curious they would rate #1 on campuses too, since they are typically not readily available.

I couldn't find the Harvard study, but did locate this:

"The fact that student suicide rates are lower than general population rates is largely attributed to the relative dearth of access to firearms on campus. Guns are the leading method of suicide for men and the second leading method for women in the general population; guns are also the leading method of suicide for male students, but their use is one-third as common among students.

In the wake of recent suicide-massacres on campus, however, many states have introduced legislation that strikes down university bans on concealed weapons. Seven states now allow concealed weapons on public university campuses, and as I write this, Texas awaits governor approval of a bill allowing concealed weapons at all its public universities. With more access to the most widely used method of suicide, other efforts at suicide prevention may become even more critical in the years ahead."

http://www.nndc.org/perspectives-on-college-student-suicide/

[Person 2713]

47. If I was the 9 yr old girl I would blame my parents for bringing me there later in life because wtf

Uzi sub machine guns and a 9year old girl? Can you bring a lawsuit against your parents for trauma ?years later?

[63splitwindow]

48. Actually she could. Has a couple of years AFTER attaining adult age (18 most states) to do so.

[Sancho]

52. May as well sue the shooter...

because you can't sue the manufacturer for producing a dangerous product!!

[Hoyt]

69. Exactly. They advertise their guns as killing machines, aphrodisiacs, or whatever. But can't sue em.

[Vinca]

54. Gun nut vs. gun nut. Perfect.

I feel sorry for the kid. Scarred for life because her parents are fools.

[Hoyt]

70. Laughed out loud at title. Sounds like Michael Moore movie, and sad commentary on our society.

[Rex]

72. If only they had gone to a park that day and had a picnic together.

Their lives would be completely different and on track.

[kwolf68]

75. A result of systematic brainwashing of our young

Trotting kids under 10 out to shoot guns, using them even to hunt at early ages is the primary way to fuel the sport-hunting and gun industry. Most have to be brought into the culture at younger ages.

[struggle4progress]

76. The Charles Vacca Memorial Award for Memorable Firearms Safety Instruction

annually honors the firearms instructor who has selflessly gone furthest beyond the call of duty in an effort to teach the most important lesson about firearms safety

The actual award trophy features a lovely pink Uzi, with a full ready-to-fire magazine, handsomely engraved with the slogan What, me worry?

[struggle4progress]

77. Children of gun instructor killed by 9-year-old at range launch campaign

By DON DAHLER CBS NEWS August 25, 2015, 7:10 PM

... On Tuesday, the instructor's children launched a national campaign to convince lawmakers to set an age limit for the use of automatic weapons ...

"Laws say that children can't drink, can't drive, can't vote. But they can shoot fully automatic assault weapons," Ellie says in the video.

"If you look at the vast majority of states, they don't have any regulation whatsoever," said the family's attorney Marc Lamber ...

The gun range where Vacca was killed still allows children to fire machine guns.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/children-of-gun-instructor-charles-vacca-killed-by-9-year-old-launch-national-petition/