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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIf a health insurance mandate is unconstitutional, why did George Washington sign one in 1790?
Why are conservatives (and even some DUers) saying there has been no precedent for the Supreme Court approving a health insurance mandate?
Because -- while Congress has legislated such mandates in the past -- such a case has never come to the Supreme Court . Because, until recently, no one ever challenged such a mandate. Suddenly, a type of regulation that has existed since the earliest days of our Republic is now claimed to be unconstitutional.
http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/102620/individual-mandate-history-affordable-care-act
By Einer Elhauge (a professor at Harvard Law School, who joined an amicus brief supporting the constitutionality of the mandate)
If Health Insurance Mandates Are Unconstitutional, Why Did the Founding Fathers Back Them?
In making the legal case against Obamacares individual mandate, challengers have argued that the framers of our Constitution would certainly have found such a measure to be unconstitutional. Nevermind that nothing in the text or history of the Constitutions Commerce Clause indicates that Congress cannot mandate commercial purchases. The framers, challengers have claimed, thought a constitutional ban on purchase mandates was too obvious to mention. Their core basis for this claim is that purchase mandates are unprecedented, which they say would not be the case if it was understood this power existed.
But theres a major problem with this line of argument: It just isnt true. The founding fathers, it turns out, passed several mandates of their own. In 1790, the very first Congresswhich incidentally included 20 framerspassed a law that included a mandate: namely, a requirement that ship owners buy medical insurance for their seamen. This law was then signed by another framer: President George Washington. Thats right, the father of our country had no difficulty imposing a health insurance mandate.
SNIP
pinto
(106,886 posts)pnwmom
(108,977 posts)Maybe it will make a difference.
Sirveri
(4,517 posts)The RW justices will basically wipe their asses with this, and then get on the phone with the Koch bros and co and do whatever the heck they are told to do.
kenny blankenship
(15,689 posts)under which newspaper editors, private citizens and even members of Congress were arrested and jailed for criticizing the government.
Just because something gets past Congress and one of the first two Presidents, doesn't make it Constitutional.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)No one can argue that the Founding Fathers would oppose the mandate, because the Founding Fathers supported a health insurance mandate.
And it wasn't just one law that was passed by one Congress. In 1792, Congress passed a mandate requiring men to buy guns. In 1798, Congress passed a law requiring seamen themselves to purchase hospital insurance.
And there has been similar legislation passed through many Congresses over the past two hundred years. If this law gets overturned, we're heading toward a Libertarian train wreck, because the legal underpinnings for this case could affect countless other regulations, including Medicare and Medicaid.
Lionessa
(3,894 posts)choose whether to be alive or not.
Secondly Medicare/Medicaid is not a mandate, it's a tax. Give me Medicaid/Medicare for all, and I have no doubt most everyone able to think rationally will be happy to pay that tax over their current insurance rate.
Uncle Joe
(58,355 posts)pnwmom
(108,977 posts)to purchase guns in 1792 required the guns to be purchased from the government?
Lionessa
(3,894 posts)Would you be upset that you were required to buy a thing you might not want or be able to afford from a company you didn't want to support that makes items you may find abhorrent but would be required to have?
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)Not every dumb thing is unconstitutional, and not every unconstitutional thing is dumb.
Lionessa
(3,894 posts)example works against your point that forcing private purchases is the way things should be, though I have no idea what caused this gun buying law to be repealed.
Uncle Joe
(58,355 posts)contention has popped up several times in the past here at D.U. and one of them explicitly stated this insurance was purchased through the U.S. Treasury.
I'm not for certain but I seem to recall that someone stated the private for profit "health" insurance industry didn't exist in those days.
As for the mandate to purchase guns, that was more of a national security issue under the militia clause.
I'm in a rush to an appointment but later I will see if I can find that other thread re: this subject.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)Lionessa
(3,894 posts)There is no requirement for anyone to participate in that industry, just as car insurance isn't comparable because no one is required to buy or drive a car.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)challenged until Obamacare.
The Medicare tax could be attacked on the same constitutional grounds that these people are attacking the Affordable Health Care Act. How would you feel about that?
Lionessa
(3,894 posts)Edited to add:
Sorry, I hit the enter button and off it went. Different programs, enter button advances to next box, not here.
Medicare is a tax, not a mandate to provide private companies with income, clients, and profit.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)involve people engaging in a form of commerce. Congress has a right to regulate Commerce, and everyone, at some point or other, is involved in the commerce of health care.
Lionessa
(3,894 posts)Regulate commerce doesn't mean force commerce upon.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)Lionessa
(3,894 posts)defining the difference between "regulate" and "force"?
SoutherDem
(2,307 posts)I am sure he is too liberal for todays GOP. I would dare say very few of our past leaders could pass the litmus test the tea party has for the GOP.
TheKentuckian
(25,023 posts)The mandate you are using for support (as you identify in your own blurb) was for the merchant fleet to provide coverage for care such as it existed for their employees not the individual at all.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)there was an additional law mandating that INDIVIDUALS purchase hospitalization insurance (which wasn't included in the original mandate.)
There was also a law mandating that individuals purchase handguns.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)There is a huge difference in being mandated to buy medical insurance as a condition of owning a merchant ship and being mandated to buy medical insurance as a condition of being alive.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)There was also a mandate for individuals to purchase guns.
OneTenthofOnePercent
(6,268 posts)It was a mandate for employers to provide insurance for a singular industry. Quite a bit f choices existed to opt out as running a business is wholly a choice as is the employees choice to work for you in that industry. It's a regulation of an industry. Nearly every industry has federally mandated regulations... it's congress' job to regulate commerce and industry.
Mandating that every citizen be forced to buy insurance for merely existing & breathing is an entirely different matter because there is no personal choice in the matter. Making purchasing choices for private citizens is not akin to regulating industry... private citizens are not industry. People choosing not to buy health insurance is categorically choosing not to participate in commerce... by definition not participating in commerce is NOT commerce. Having the power to regulate interstate commerce does not give congress the power to force people to purchase private products. You can't legislate demand. It's a massive overreach of powers and introduces a slippery slope.
Perhaps the next auto or bank bailout will be congress mandating that people buy an American car or refinance a mortgage.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)"Six years later, in 1798, Congress addressed the problem that the employer mandate to buy medical insurance for seamen covered drugs and physician services but not hospital stays. And you know what this Congress, with five framers serving in it, did? It enacted a federal law requiring the seamen to buy hospital insurance for themselves. Thats right, Congress enacted an individual mandate requiring the purchase of health insurance. And this act was signed by another founder, President John Adams."
There was also a 1792 mandate to purchase handguns, merely for being an "existing & breathing" male.
OneTenthofOnePercent
(6,268 posts)It was a completely personal preference to participate in a maritime industry therefore the requirement to purchase hospitalization insurance was not unavoidably compulsory.
As to the citation of The Militia Act of 1792... Yes, there has been a law at one point in time mandating the purchase of goods. Possibly more than one instance. However the mere fact that such a law once existed, written largely by the Framers nonetheless, does not automatically mean that a latter similar law is constitutional. There are two reasons it's a poor direct comparison.
A) It is now repealed and prior to repeal I don't believe it was ever constitutionally/judicially challenged. Pointing to the existence of a previous law as grounds that a subsequent law is valid implies that the previous law was, in fact, constitutional. It does no good to reference an old law as a 'character reference' if it happens to be unconstitutional. Typically, this is why established case-law is referenced and not just untested prior legislation. There's alot of shitty legislation that has long since been repealed you would NOT want modern law based upon simply because the past law that existed was never challenged. Was the 1792 MA ever judicially vetted/tested? My quick Google search turns up no instances, although I DO think it would stand as constitutional (see "B" . Nevertheless, a lack of constitutional-veracity greatly diminishes The Militia Act of 1792 as credible proof of the HCR constitutionality.
B) Despite any law passed, one thing must remain true... it must be within the realm of Enumerated Congressional Powers. What constitutional power does the HCR mandating the purchase of private services depend on to maintain it's constitutionality? Because it is VERY clear cut what power the Militia Act of 1792 uses:
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
So it all comes down to ONE question... what specific authority (power) does congress have to force individuals to purchase health insurance? As I stated in my other post above, I think justification under the commerce clause is specious at best. Perhaps the, "...Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;" may be used... but the HCR penalty-tax would not levied uniformly against all people since it's actually a fine nor is the initial requirement to purchase private healthcare a tax in and of itself.
leftstreet
(36,106 posts)pnwmom
(108,977 posts)Zalatix
(8,994 posts)Mandatory health insurance aka RomneyCare 2.0 mandates you purchase health insurance just for being alive.
The only way out of making a corporation rich at your expense, is to die.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)"Six years later, in 1798, Congress addressed the problem that the employer mandate to buy medical insurance for seamen covered drugs and physician services but not hospital stays. And you know what this Congress, with five framers serving in it, did? It enacted a federal law requiring the seamen to buy hospital insurance for themselves. Thats right, Congress enacted an individual mandate requiring the purchase of health insurance. And this act was signed by another founder, President John Adams."
There was also a mandate in 1792 for men to purchase handguns.