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pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 03:23 PM Jun 2012

If a health insurance mandate is unconstitutional, why did George Washington sign one in 1790?

Why are conservatives (and even some DUers) saying there has been no precedent for the Supreme Court approving a health insurance mandate?

Because -- while Congress has legislated such mandates in the past -- such a case has never come to the Supreme Court . Because, until recently, no one ever challenged such a mandate. Suddenly, a type of regulation that has existed since the earliest days of our Republic is now claimed to be unconstitutional.

http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/102620/individual-mandate-history-affordable-care-act

By Einer Elhauge (a professor at Harvard Law School, who joined an amicus brief supporting the constitutionality of the mandate)

If Health Insurance Mandates Are Unconstitutional, Why Did the Founding Fathers Back Them?

In making the legal case against Obamacare’s individual mandate, challengers have argued that the framers of our Constitution would certainly have found such a measure to be unconstitutional. Nevermind that nothing in the text or history of the Constitution’s Commerce Clause indicates that Congress cannot mandate commercial purchases. The framers, challengers have claimed, thought a constitutional ban on purchase mandates was too “obvious” to mention. Their core basis for this claim is that purchase mandates are unprecedented, which they say would not be the case if it was understood this power existed.

But there’s a major problem with this line of argument: It just isn’t true. The founding fathers, it turns out, passed several mandates of their own. In 1790, the very first Congress—which incidentally included 20 framers—passed a law that included a mandate: namely, a requirement that ship owners buy medical insurance for their seamen. This law was then signed by another framer: President George Washington. That’s right, the father of our country had no difficulty imposing a health insurance mandate.

SNIP

33 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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If a health insurance mandate is unconstitutional, why did George Washington sign one in 1790? (Original Post) pnwmom Jun 2012 OP
Great find. pinto Jun 2012 #1
Thanks. I was glad to see that the Professor sent this in after the oral arguments. pnwmom Jun 2012 #2
The only thing that makes a difference is what their owners tell them. Sirveri Jun 2012 #24
And John Adams signed the Sedition Act in 1798 kenny blankenship Jun 2012 #3
This law didn't "get past" Congress. It was legislated by Congress. pnwmom Jun 2012 #4
Difference is those insurances and mandates were related to a choice, one cannot Lionessa Jun 2012 #7
Also the "mandate" this professor is speaking of required those ship owners to buy insurance Uncle Joe Jun 2012 #9
Where in the article does it say that? And does it also say that the mandate pnwmom Jun 2012 #13
And how would you feel if this mandate was re-vitalized? Lionessa Jun 2012 #15
I would argue that the requirement was stupid. But that wouldn't make it unconstitutional. pnwmom Jun 2012 #17
I argue both are unconstitutional and since one is clearly no longer upheld, I think using it as an Lionessa Jun 2012 #18
This isn't stated in your article, this is The New Republic after-all, but this same Uncle Joe Jun 2012 #19
x2 AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2012 #6
Different, this was a specific insurance for a particular industry Lionessa Jun 2012 #5
The point is that there have been many similar mandates in the past, and they have never been pnwmom Jun 2012 #10
The point is THEY ARE NOT SIMILAR. The others are based on a choice, being alive isn't a choice. Lionessa Jun 2012 #12
They ARE similar, according to this Harvard law professor, because both situations pnwmom Jun 2012 #14
Then he or she is an idiot in my opinion. Lionessa Jun 2012 #16
Thanks for the well-thought out, considered opinion. pnwmom Jun 2012 #20
Some POV don't need a verbose explanation for most, are you requiring an explanation Lionessa Jun 2012 #21
He was just one of our founding fathers SoutherDem Jun 2012 #8
K&R drm604 Jun 2012 #11
You are not referencing an individual mandate no punishing inactivity TheKentuckian Jun 2012 #22
You didn't read the article. A few years later, pnwmom Jun 2012 #25
This is simply the car insurance argument redrawn, MadHound Jun 2012 #23
A few years later, there was a mandate for individuals to purchase hospitalization insurance. pnwmom Jun 2012 #26
Mandating the purchase of insurance for your employees is WAY different. OneTenthofOnePercent Jun 2012 #27
If you had read further, you'd have seen that there were also individual mandates. pnwmom Jun 2012 #32
Once again.. choose to participate in a profession and accept regulations in that industry. OneTenthofOnePercent Jun 2012 #33
Why don't we have Medicare For All? n/t leftstreet Jun 2012 #28
Because it couldn't pass Congress. Even this barely passed Congress. n/t pnwmom Jun 2012 #31
You actually had to own a ship and hire seamen. Zalatix Jun 2012 #29
No, there were several different mandates, including ones that covered individuals. pnwmom Jun 2012 #30

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
2. Thanks. I was glad to see that the Professor sent this in after the oral arguments.
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 03:30 PM
Jun 2012

Maybe it will make a difference.

Sirveri

(4,517 posts)
24. The only thing that makes a difference is what their owners tell them.
Sat Jun 16, 2012, 11:47 PM
Jun 2012

The RW justices will basically wipe their asses with this, and then get on the phone with the Koch bros and co and do whatever the heck they are told to do.

kenny blankenship

(15,689 posts)
3. And John Adams signed the Sedition Act in 1798
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 03:36 PM
Jun 2012

under which newspaper editors, private citizens and even members of Congress were arrested and jailed for criticizing the government.

Just because something gets past Congress and one of the first two Presidents, doesn't make it Constitutional.

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
4. This law didn't "get past" Congress. It was legislated by Congress.
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 03:41 PM
Jun 2012

No one can argue that the Founding Fathers would oppose the mandate, because the Founding Fathers supported a health insurance mandate.

And it wasn't just one law that was passed by one Congress. In 1792, Congress passed a mandate requiring men to buy guns. In 1798, Congress passed a law requiring seamen themselves to purchase hospital insurance.

And there has been similar legislation passed through many Congresses over the past two hundred years. If this law gets overturned, we're heading toward a Libertarian train wreck, because the legal underpinnings for this case could affect countless other regulations, including Medicare and Medicaid.

 

Lionessa

(3,894 posts)
7. Difference is those insurances and mandates were related to a choice, one cannot
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 04:10 PM
Jun 2012

choose whether to be alive or not.

Secondly Medicare/Medicaid is not a mandate, it's a tax. Give me Medicaid/Medicare for all, and I have no doubt most everyone able to think rationally will be happy to pay that tax over their current insurance rate.

Uncle Joe

(58,355 posts)
9. Also the "mandate" this professor is speaking of required those ship owners to buy insurance
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 04:31 PM
Jun 2012
from the government not from private for profit "health" insurance corporations.

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
13. Where in the article does it say that? And does it also say that the mandate
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 04:35 PM
Jun 2012

to purchase guns in 1792 required the guns to be purchased from the government?

 

Lionessa

(3,894 posts)
15. And how would you feel if this mandate was re-vitalized?
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 04:40 PM
Jun 2012

Would you be upset that you were required to buy a thing you might not want or be able to afford from a company you didn't want to support that makes items you may find abhorrent but would be required to have?

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
17. I would argue that the requirement was stupid. But that wouldn't make it unconstitutional.
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 04:42 PM
Jun 2012

Not every dumb thing is unconstitutional, and not every unconstitutional thing is dumb.

 

Lionessa

(3,894 posts)
18. I argue both are unconstitutional and since one is clearly no longer upheld, I think using it as an
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 04:45 PM
Jun 2012

example works against your point that forcing private purchases is the way things should be, though I have no idea what caused this gun buying law to be repealed.

Uncle Joe

(58,355 posts)
19. This isn't stated in your article, this is The New Republic after-all, but this same
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 04:48 PM
Jun 2012

contention has popped up several times in the past here at D.U. and one of them explicitly stated this insurance was purchased through the U.S. Treasury.

I'm not for certain but I seem to recall that someone stated the private for profit "health" insurance industry didn't exist in those days.

As for the mandate to purchase guns, that was more of a national security issue under the militia clause.

I'm in a rush to an appointment but later I will see if I can find that other thread re: this subject.



 

Lionessa

(3,894 posts)
5. Different, this was a specific insurance for a particular industry
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 04:08 PM
Jun 2012

There is no requirement for anyone to participate in that industry, just as car insurance isn't comparable because no one is required to buy or drive a car.

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
10. The point is that there have been many similar mandates in the past, and they have never been
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 04:32 PM
Jun 2012

challenged until Obamacare.

The Medicare tax could be attacked on the same constitutional grounds that these people are attacking the Affordable Health Care Act. How would you feel about that?

 

Lionessa

(3,894 posts)
12. The point is THEY ARE NOT SIMILAR. The others are based on a choice, being alive isn't a choice.
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 04:34 PM
Jun 2012

Edited to add:

Sorry, I hit the enter button and off it went. Different programs, enter button advances to next box, not here.

Medicare is a tax, not a mandate to provide private companies with income, clients, and profit.

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
14. They ARE similar, according to this Harvard law professor, because both situations
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 04:37 PM
Jun 2012

involve people engaging in a form of commerce. Congress has a right to regulate Commerce, and everyone, at some point or other, is involved in the commerce of health care.

 

Lionessa

(3,894 posts)
21. Some POV don't need a verbose explanation for most, are you requiring an explanation
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 04:57 PM
Jun 2012

defining the difference between "regulate" and "force"?

SoutherDem

(2,307 posts)
8. He was just one of our founding fathers
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 04:25 PM
Jun 2012

I am sure he is too liberal for todays GOP. I would dare say very few of our past leaders could pass the litmus test the tea party has for the GOP.

TheKentuckian

(25,023 posts)
22. You are not referencing an individual mandate no punishing inactivity
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 06:20 PM
Jun 2012

The mandate you are using for support (as you identify in your own blurb) was for the merchant fleet to provide coverage for care such as it existed for their employees not the individual at all.

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
25. You didn't read the article. A few years later,
Sun Jun 17, 2012, 12:24 AM
Jun 2012

there was an additional law mandating that INDIVIDUALS purchase hospitalization insurance (which wasn't included in the original mandate.)

There was also a law mandating that individuals purchase handguns.

 

MadHound

(34,179 posts)
23. This is simply the car insurance argument redrawn,
Fri Jun 15, 2012, 06:27 PM
Jun 2012

There is a huge difference in being mandated to buy medical insurance as a condition of owning a merchant ship and being mandated to buy medical insurance as a condition of being alive.

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
26. A few years later, there was a mandate for individuals to purchase hospitalization insurance.
Sun Jun 17, 2012, 12:25 AM
Jun 2012

There was also a mandate for individuals to purchase guns.

 

OneTenthofOnePercent

(6,268 posts)
27. Mandating the purchase of insurance for your employees is WAY different.
Sun Jun 17, 2012, 12:38 AM
Jun 2012

It was a mandate for employers to provide insurance for a singular industry. Quite a bit f choices existed to opt out as running a business is wholly a choice as is the employees choice to work for you in that industry. It's a regulation of an industry. Nearly every industry has federally mandated regulations... it's congress' job to regulate commerce and industry.

Mandating that every citizen be forced to buy insurance for merely existing & breathing is an entirely different matter because there is no personal choice in the matter. Making purchasing choices for private citizens is not akin to regulating industry... private citizens are not industry. People choosing not to buy health insurance is categorically choosing not to participate in commerce... by definition not participating in commerce is NOT commerce. Having the power to regulate interstate commerce does not give congress the power to force people to purchase private products. You can't legislate demand. It's a massive overreach of powers and introduces a slippery slope.

Perhaps the next auto or bank bailout will be congress mandating that people buy an American car or refinance a mortgage.

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
32. If you had read further, you'd have seen that there were also individual mandates.
Sun Jun 17, 2012, 01:29 AM
Jun 2012

"Six years later, in 1798, Congress addressed the problem that the employer mandate to buy medical insurance for seamen covered drugs and physician services but not hospital stays. And you know what this Congress, with five framers serving in it, did? It enacted a federal law requiring the seamen to buy hospital insurance for themselves. That’s right, Congress enacted an individual mandate requiring the purchase of health insurance. And this act was signed by another founder, President John Adams."

There was also a 1792 mandate to purchase handguns, merely for being an "existing & breathing" male.

 

OneTenthofOnePercent

(6,268 posts)
33. Once again.. choose to participate in a profession and accept regulations in that industry.
Sun Jun 17, 2012, 03:53 AM
Jun 2012

It was a completely personal preference to participate in a maritime industry therefore the requirement to purchase hospitalization insurance was not unavoidably compulsory.

As to the citation of The Militia Act of 1792... Yes, there has been a law at one point in time mandating the purchase of goods. Possibly more than one instance. However the mere fact that such a law once existed, written largely by the Framers nonetheless, does not automatically mean that a latter similar law is constitutional. There are two reasons it's a poor direct comparison.

A) It is now repealed and prior to repeal I don't believe it was ever constitutionally/judicially challenged. Pointing to the existence of a previous law as grounds that a subsequent law is valid implies that the previous law was, in fact, constitutional. It does no good to reference an old law as a 'character reference' if it happens to be unconstitutional. Typically, this is why established case-law is referenced and not just untested prior legislation. There's alot of shitty legislation that has long since been repealed you would NOT want modern law based upon simply because the past law that existed was never challenged. Was the 1792 MA ever judicially vetted/tested? My quick Google search turns up no instances, although I DO think it would stand as constitutional (see "B&quot . Nevertheless, a lack of constitutional-veracity greatly diminishes The Militia Act of 1792 as credible proof of the HCR constitutionality.

B) Despite any law passed, one thing must remain true... it must be within the realm of Enumerated Congressional Powers. What constitutional power does the HCR mandating the purchase of private services depend on to maintain it's constitutionality? Because it is VERY clear cut what power the Militia Act of 1792 uses:

USC, Article I, Section VIII;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
Given the Necessary and Proper Clause (the power to carry out another enumerated power by any means necessary & proper), this means that the Militia Act of 1792 was well within congressional power to require persons to provide military articles in support of the maintenance of militias. Unfortunately, the HCR bill cannot cite authority under the militia clause as HCR has nothing to do with militias. One would think that to hold up the existence of a previous constitutional act as evidence that HCR is itself also constitutional, that both instances of legislation would share similar acts of constitutional power. Otherwise you're comparing apples to oranges.


So it all comes down to ONE question... what specific authority (power) does congress have to force individuals to purchase health insurance? As I stated in my other post above, I think justification under the commerce clause is specious at best. Perhaps the, "...Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;" may be used... but the HCR penalty-tax would not levied uniformly against all people since it's actually a fine nor is the initial requirement to purchase private healthcare a tax in and of itself.
 

Zalatix

(8,994 posts)
29. You actually had to own a ship and hire seamen.
Sun Jun 17, 2012, 01:22 AM
Jun 2012

Mandatory health insurance aka RomneyCare 2.0 mandates you purchase health insurance just for being alive.

The only way out of making a corporation rich at your expense, is to die.

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
30. No, there were several different mandates, including ones that covered individuals.
Sun Jun 17, 2012, 01:27 AM
Jun 2012

"Six years later, in 1798, Congress addressed the problem that the employer mandate to buy medical insurance for seamen covered drugs and physician services but not hospital stays. And you know what this Congress, with five framers serving in it, did? It enacted a federal law requiring the seamen to buy hospital insurance for themselves. That’s right, Congress enacted an individual mandate requiring the purchase of health insurance. And this act was signed by another founder, President John Adams."

There was also a mandate in 1792 for men to purchase handguns.

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