Neat but scary e. coli experiment

[duncang]

First just as a friendly request. There already is a couple threads on vaccines. This could be a related but separate subject please if you want to talk about vaccines use one of those threads.

The Harvard Medical School did a experiment involving e. coli. They made a 2' by 4' petri dish. They put agar divided in to 7 segments. The 2 outside segments had no antibiotic. The next section had just the minimum amount to kill the e. coli. Then each section the antibiotic percentage was raised by 10 fold.

Now to the neat part at least to me. It shows a really good example of new strains evolving across the time span of the video. The diagram of strains toward the end really shows the strength of diversity in evolution.

The scary part. The ease and speed of the mutations across the petri dish. There was a large amount of e. coli so kind of expected but still spooky. Remembering that people will start a course of antibiotics then not finish their prescription as prescribed by their doctor essentially does the same thing but in slower motion. The over prescribing of antibiotics also can create "super bugs" The normal use of antibiotics in our food chain. I know there are economic reasons for it. But it really needs to be addressed.

Personal feelings on the subject. Antibiotics have saved so many lives they have a important part and need to be used. But there does need to be more consideration on the automatic use of them both for people and anumals. People who start out a prescription of antibiotics need to make sure they complete the prescription.

Here is the link for more information and the video. It really is worth watching and reading.

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2016/09/a-cinematic-approach-to-drug-resistance/

[still_one]

1. Most of the problem is caused by antibiotics given to farm animals who are not sick, as a

preventive. That should be stopped immediately, but unfortunately they are going to phase it out within 5 years. That is too long.

While there is some antibiotic abuse here, most of the problem of antibiotic abuse from Asia, and countries where anyone can walk in without a prescription and get and antibiotic quite easily

[Paka]

4. I live in Asia...

...and predominately those who abuse the ability to buy antibiotics without prescription are Americans and other travelers. Locals can't afford them and don't prefer them over traditional medicine. Rampant abuse of antibiotics is not a local problem here. It is unquestionably an American problem. For what it is worth, I am a retired microbiologist.

[still_one]

18. From my experience in China, and in numerious studies that have been done, I am

going to disagree with your assessment:

http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2103733,00.html

http://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/article/1825400/chinese-government-must-tackle-overuse-antibiotics

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-health-antibiotics-idUSKCN0VV0Y0

http://www.huffingtonpost.in/open-magazine/how-india-became-the-antibiotics-capital-of-the-world-and-wasted/

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mumbai/India-has-highest-rates-of-antibiotic-resistance-rampant-misuse-to-blame/articleshow/49784929.cms

The abuse of antibiotic use in farm animals is rampant worldwide.

Some of the antibiotic misuse in humans is due to stopping the antibiotic early by the patient because they start to feel better.

[TexasProgresive]

9. What made e-coli so deadly was feed lot practices.

e-coli was not able to survive the high acid of the stomach. This meant any accidental ingestion of the bacteria never made it to the small gut. It is naturally part of the bacteria load of the large gut. So how did feed lot practices change e-coli that it can survive the high acid?

Jam a lot of cattle in a grassless lot where the consume highly concentrated feeds while inadvertently but unavoidable eating their own excrement. The grain feeding leads to a chronic lactic acidosis in the rumen. Over time the bacteria has evolved to survive high acid environments. Voila! there is now an e-coli that can survive the stomach acids.

To make matters worse the hide and hair of the animals is extremely contaminated with manure dust contain the spores of the acid resistant e-coli. This leads to contamination of the finished meat products. Cut meats have less surface area so it is less and on the surface where the heat of cooking can destroy it. Ground meats are more of a risk as the contamination is throughout the product making it possible for the e-coli to survive cooking.

Antibiotic practices in meat production is very bad. But the problem is that e-coli has become a real danger. In the past there was little danger of an infection, now it is real and leads to real sickness and death. Antibiotic resistance is just icing on the cake. (or is that a shit pie?) I just love mixed metaphors.

[still_one]

19. Why they are allowing a 5 year phase out is beyond me. The situation is extremely

precarious. People are getting UTIs that are potentially becoming life threatening antibiotic resistance.

[athena]

14. If you want to do something about this right away,

stop eating meat. It's that simple. If enough people did so, the industry would take notice. The fact is, you are supporting that industry and its practices with your hard-earned money each time you buy meat at the grocery store.

[still_one]

20. Actually, I happen to be a vegatarian, but I get your point. There are also

places where people can buy meat that hasn't been with antibiotics, but that is the minority

[athena]

26. That's great! You're doing what you can.

More and more people are realizing that the only way to get the factory-farming industry to change is to stop supporting it. The factory-farm industry cares about one thing and one thing only, and that is money. That's why those of us who don't approve of its practices would do best to stop giving it our money.

[Tortmaster]

2. That was frightening!

All it takes is 11 days. A great experiment showing evolution.

By the way, at the link there is a guy not wearing a hazmat suit. I would like him to put on a hazmat suit right now.

Signed, Mom

[Hortensis]

3. Fascinating, thanks! A UTI superbug mutation is out there

now, an E coli that does not just infect through the urinary system. But that it does has health professionals very worried. Just think of the millions of Americans alone who have UTIs each year. They're typically minor now, but imagine a UTI that cannot be controlled, much less knocked out. As it is, perhaps 10% of all UTIs, nearly a million a year, are already from antibiotic-resistant strains, not the superbugs.

Since UTIs are overwhelmingly a female problem, and since they have been quickly treatable for the past several decades, this impending crisis has not drawn a lot of attention. But untreated, besides the misery, they can spread up through the kidneys and into the bloodstream, causing sepsis and death. We have to develop new antibiotics, or a lot of people of all ages, not only elderly, are going to die from what used to be no big deal.

[Warren DeMontague]

6. Another thing about E Coli is, E Coli is prevalent and generally benign.

I mean, we all have E. Coli in our guts, all the time. It's part of the normal gut fauna of mammals, right?

It's just a couple particular specific strains of E Coli that make people so dangerously sick.

So E Coli might not be the best example, because when you're talking about antibiotics to fight E Coli, you really only want them for these specific strains.

[Hortensis]

7. Good point. But E coli chose itself to pose this enormous

threat. The UTI pathway that most people are so far completely unaware of is alarming because it is so ubiquitous. Of course healthy men in the prime of life would not be as alarmed for themselves, but they might be concerned about what this could mean for their mothers, wives, daughters.

[Warren DeMontague]

8. Right, I actually stumbled across the story I think you're referring to.

You are correct, it is upsetting.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/may/27/us-reports-first-case-of-bacteria-resistant-to-antibiotic-of-last-resort

My understanding here is, that "normal" E Coli can cause UTIs if they make their way up the urethra. And yeah, I hear you, UTIs can be awful.

[Hortensis]

11. It's not one of the pieces I've read, which are older, but yes.

National Geographic had one I remember. That awful thing can be true, although they often have no symptoms, but I've never needed to wonder if one would carry me off.

[still_one]

21. A UTI today has a very real possibility of become lifethreatening as you pointed out

and lead to a septic situation. You are absolutely right.

They are working very hard to develop new antibiotics, and making some progress, but it is pretty slow going. In fact a lot of pharmaceutical companies have gotten out of the antibiotic business because there wasn't enough money in it, which is why the government really needs to be involved.

Several years ago there was investigation for a vaccine against UTIs, but I haven't heard much about it since.

[Warren DeMontague]

5. The widespread, scattershot use of antibiotics in factory farming is a real problem.

I agree.

[duncang]

10. I hope they will figure out a efficient and better way to raise livestock

I know it is in the works, but hope they can get it together sooner then expected. The factory farming has made food cheaper, but at the same time increased the risk of problems.

[bucolic_frolic]

12. It's all scary

I think often doctors prescribe antibiotics without really knowing
what they're treating. They are advised by the CDC, or other doctors,
or pharma reps what is 'going around' this season.

Prescribing on symptoms without tests is common. It was done to me
several times until I couldn't handle toxins. Once yeast overgrowth
occurred, I was persona non grata. I have read the medical community
forbids that diagnosis in the state where I was treated; it causes lawsuits.

I stay away from doctors. Herbs, alternative medicines, symptoms are easily
researched on the internet. I can do my own treatments without testing,
and it's a hell of a lot cheaper.

[Act_of_Reparation]

17. This is a web forum, not a poetry slam.

And gardeners aren't medical professionals.

[bucolic_frolic]

24. Thanks for the empathy

You must be a pleasure to all concerned as an apologist for the Medical Cartel
that fleeces us all.

[Act_of_Reparation]

25. Yeah, that's it.

I wake up every morning bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, positively engorged as I think of all the ways I'll lie to people and steal their money.

[dembotoz]

13. great post love to see God create new organisms on an everyday basis...evolution quackery

i am not anti christian...i am christian but

evolution is kinda real

[Avalux]

23. It's called microevolution, and yes, it's very real.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microevolution

[ismnotwasm]

15. There is already a resistant form of e-coli we are dealing with in hospitals

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta-lactamase#Carbapenemases


Also, e-coli, is a very useful bacteria, with many strains-- used in research and drug manufacture.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/a8832/is-there-nothing-science-cant-do-with-e-coli-15408934/


I agree--finish your antibiotics. The ID doctors I work with are very aware of the over-prescribing problem and healthcare providers are working to combat this, but--it's a scary situation because of the rapid mutations. Also, there is little money in research for NEW antibiotics, or, rather, not as much money as there should be.

Bacteria brought us in to the world, bacteria could take us out.

[progressoid]

16. Video also here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/122848897

[Avalux]

22. I spent a good part of my career in infectious disease research.

Bacteria are living creatures and find ways to adapt and continue living. The antibiotics we have should be treated like gold and only prescribed when absolutely necessary, people need to be educated about finishing the entire course. There's a reason why you need to take it for a week, or 10 days...even if feeling better.

Another thing - antibiotics DO NOT treat viruses. There are way too many uneducated physicians who prescribe antibiotics for what is most likely a viral infection, especially in children. I think they do it to appease the parents who demand antibiotics even though it's wrong and will end up contributing to resistance.

Don't even get me started on antibiotics and animals that are consumed as food. There's a reason why I don't eat meat.

So it's really only a matter of time until the antibiotics we have no longer work. Big pharma does not invest money in developing new antibiotics because it's not very profitable; all they do is develop offshoots of what we already have. This is really an area where the government needs to invest big because we're quickly getting behind the 8 ball and I don't see the urgency needed to keep it from happening. Pan-resistant bacteria are on the horizon.