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Stonepounder

(4,033 posts)
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 11:40 AM Sep 2016

Arizona now considers changing diapers to be a sex crime.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2016/09/16/arizona_child_sexual_abuse_law_guts_due_process_for_parents_and_caregivers.html

If You Change a Baby’s Diaper in Arizona, You Can Now Be Convicted of Child Molestation

The Arizona Supreme Court issued a stunning and horrifying decision on Tuesday, interpreting a state law to criminalize any contact between an adult and a child’s genitals. According to the court, the law’s sweep encompasses wholly innocent conduct, such as changing a diaper or bathing a baby. As the stinging dissent notes, “parents and other caregivers” in the state are now considered to be “child molesters or sex abusers under Arizona law.” Those convicted under the statute may be imprisoned for five years.

How did this happen? A combination of bad legislating and terrible judging. Start with the legislature, which passed laws forbidding any person from “intentionally or knowingly … touching … any part of the genitals, anus or female breast” of a child “under fifteen years of age.” Notice something odd about that? Although the laws call such contact “child molestation” or “sexual abuse,” the statutes themselves do not require the “touching” to be sexual in nature. (No other state’s law excludes this element of improper sexual intent.) Indeed, read literally, the statutes would seem to prohibit parents from changing their child’s diaper. And the measures forbid both “direct and indirect touching,” meaning parents cannot even bathe their child without becoming sexual abusers under the law.

Arizona’s Supreme Court had an opportunity to remedy this glaring problem. A man convicted under these laws urged the justices to limit the statutes’ scope by interpreting the “touching” element to require some sexual intent. But by a 3-2 vote, the court refused and declared that the law criminalized the completely innocent touching of a child. The majority declined to “rewrite the statutes to require the state to prove sexual motivation, when the statutes clearly contain no such requirement.” Moreover, the court held that the laws posed no due process problem, because those prosecuted under the statute could still assert “lack of sexual motivation” as an “affirmative defense” at trial—one the defendant himself must prove to the jury “by a preponderance of the evidence.” As to the risk that the law criminalizes typical parental tasks, the majority shrugs that “prosecutors are unlikely to charge parents” engaged in innocent conduct. (This “just trust the prosecutors” dodge doesn’t always work out so well in Arizona.)


This country is going insane! I am less and less sure that we will be able to survive as anything other than a third-world country, with a dictator (and his family), people starving in the streets (oh, wait, they already are and people are getting arrested for trying to feed them), purges and pogroms, etc.

The legislatures in tea-party states are going crazy, as are the courts. And we've got a madman supported by the Republican Party with an actual change to become President.
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Arizona now considers changing diapers to be a sex crime. (Original Post) Stonepounder Sep 2016 OP
Keep voting for stupid people! Iggo Sep 2016 #1
Surely this is an onion article right? Calculating Sep 2016 #2
That was the first thing I looked for in the url. Frustratedlady Sep 2016 #4
Idiocracy - check it out. It's a movie... TheDebbieDee Sep 2016 #34
For real? So the majority of us have been duped? I certainly was. eom Frustratedlady Sep 2016 #39
No! I mean our country is being run by idiots because TheDebbieDee Sep 2016 #40
Oh, OK. I'm not familiar with that movie. Frustratedlady Sep 2016 #41
Here is the opening, which explains the movie FrodosPet Sep 2016 #59
Thanks! Scary that reproducing is the only task they understand. eom Frustratedlady Sep 2016 #60
Finally some sensible legislation! Orrex Sep 2016 #3
Probably coming soon to NC unc70 Sep 2016 #5
It appears that this law will be "rendered unconstitutional" ismnotwasm Sep 2016 #6
This outlaws infant circumcision. forgotmylogin Sep 2016 #7
Amazing this has not been the main DU angle on this muriel_volestrangler Sep 2016 #38
What is happenening? What country am I living in? Initech Sep 2016 #8
No, it doesn't. It's just a badly worded bill. WillowTree Sep 2016 #9
You see, but that is the thing quaker bill Sep 2016 #62
Infants and toddlers will have to bathe themselves. milestogo Sep 2016 #10
And what that article fails to mention is the ruling was regarding a case involving an 11 year old kcr Sep 2016 #20
A catch 22 law GWC58 Sep 2016 #55
They'll have to imprison nurses, too. Ilsa Sep 2016 #11
Why didn't the court just strike down the stupid law? LuvNewcastle Sep 2016 #12
That is not how courts work. Without a constitutional violation at State or Federal level CBGLuthier Sep 2016 #15
I'm not a strict constructionist. LuvNewcastle Sep 2016 #18
No constitutional right to cleanliness. CBGLuthier Sep 2016 #19
Yes, the fault is with the legislature, no doubt. LuvNewcastle Sep 2016 #22
Yes there is WDIM Sep 2016 #28
Show me where or admit you are talking out your ass. CBGLuthier Sep 2016 #33
The decision talks about "parents’ constitutional right to manage and care for their children" muriel_volestrangler Sep 2016 #35
constitutional right to parent? Where the fuck is that one hidden? CBGLuthier Sep 2016 #36
Fourteenth Amendment, as the Supreme Court said (nt) muriel_volestrangler Sep 2016 #37
Sure, because a person under A) would have no standing. malthaussen Sep 2016 #57
The 9th and 10th amendments protect WDIM Sep 2016 #47
They have to have a legal reason treestar Sep 2016 #52
Nice catch-22 sarisataka Sep 2016 #13
This message was self-deleted by its author kestrel91316 Sep 2016 #14
throw 'em in the washing machine, I guess rurallib Sep 2016 #23
Use the sprayer in your kitchen sink to rinse off your kid's genitals meow2u3 Sep 2016 #30
That would be "indirect touching," though, wouldn't it? nt tblue37 Sep 2016 #43
They are trusting prosecutors to make good judgements davidn3600 Sep 2016 #16
What if a doctor needs to examine a child??? Takket Sep 2016 #17
Sex crime! closeupready Sep 2016 #29
So, parents, sitters, and nurses are going to be guilty of either criminal child neglect or haele Sep 2016 #21
The problem with being a legislator faced with these types of laws, EL34x4 Sep 2016 #25
Teachers also HockeyMom Sep 2016 #31
No. kcr Sep 2016 #24
Do they expect the baby to change themselves? liberal N proud Sep 2016 #26
We have self driving cars. Why not self changing diapers? Initech Sep 2016 #58
I suspect that in Arizona.... chillfactor Sep 2016 #27
What about testicular exams on young boys?????????????????? yellowcanine Sep 2016 #32
And so we wait... Stonepounder Sep 2016 #42
Or divorce cases Bettie Sep 2016 #46
So, will babies just keep changing custody back and forth between parents kcr Sep 2016 #49
No, but parents will use this as ammunition when Bettie Sep 2016 #54
Again. How can they do that? kcr Sep 2016 #61
Looks like Arizona wants to be the new Flor-i-duh! TheDebbieDee Sep 2016 #44
Welcome to theocratic fascism. N/t roamer65 Sep 2016 #45
Well I guess all those darn babies just going to have to learn how to change LisaL Sep 2016 #48
like i need another reason to stay out of arizona dembotoz Sep 2016 #50
Evangelical Sharia phallon Sep 2016 #51
I thought that a law needed to pass the test, Mme. Defarge Sep 2016 #53
In AZ it just has to pass the "whisper test." marybourg Sep 2016 #56

Frustratedlady

(16,254 posts)
4. That was the first thing I looked for in the url.
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 11:48 AM
Sep 2016

I still can't believe it is for real. Babies are going to be covered in rash and stinky if that is taken seriously.

Don't you feel like you are in a bad nightmare and about to wake up? These outrageous happenings are so far-fetched, I sometimes feel like I've moved to a new planet where wisdom and common sense aren't allowed.

 

TheDebbieDee

(11,119 posts)
40. No! I mean our country is being run by idiots because
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 04:12 PM
Sep 2016

WE are idiots just like in the movie called Idiocracy...

Frustratedlady

(16,254 posts)
41. Oh, OK. I'm not familiar with that movie.
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 05:56 PM
Sep 2016

In fact, I've quit watching most movies, as so many never get around to coming up with a plot.

unc70

(6,110 posts)
5. Probably coming soon to NC
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 11:51 AM
Sep 2016

Can't believe our NC GOP has missed passing such a law here. Quick! Better call a special session of the GA.

ismnotwasm

(41,971 posts)
6. It appears that this law will be "rendered unconstitutional"
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 12:01 PM
Sep 2016

Does this mean that actual pedophiles will be unable to be convicted under it in any case?

What a fucked up insane bunch of bullshit

muriel_volestrangler

(101,294 posts)
38. Amazing this has not been the main DU angle on this
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 03:59 PM
Sep 2016

It would be harder to argue a constitutional right to cut off a foreskin without consent. Some would call it a First Amendment right for the parent, I suppose.

WillowTree

(5,325 posts)
9. No, it doesn't. It's just a badly worded bill.
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 12:11 PM
Sep 2016

You know as well as anyone else that that was never anyone's intention.

quaker bill

(8,224 posts)
62. You see, but that is the thing
Thu Sep 22, 2016, 06:26 AM
Sep 2016

When you write laws, they need to be clear enough that people do not have to speculate about your intentions. This is the essential job of lawmakers.

Of course the general rule of legislation is "One half of this year's session will be devoted to undoing the unintended consequences of last year's session"....

kcr

(15,315 posts)
20. And what that article fails to mention is the ruling was regarding a case involving an 11 year old
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 01:19 PM
Sep 2016

I read Slate regularly and that writer has a habit of twisting things. Not very reliable.

Ilsa

(61,690 posts)
11. They'll have to imprison nurses, too.
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 12:21 PM
Sep 2016

Postnatal and pediatric nurses sometimes make contact with babies' and children's genitals, especiially if they need to be catheterized.

LuvNewcastle

(16,843 posts)
12. Why didn't the court just strike down the stupid law?
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 12:21 PM
Sep 2016

They could have saved the state and everyone else time and money and simply declared it unconstitutional. Fucking idiots.

CBGLuthier

(12,723 posts)
15. That is not how courts work. Without a constitutional violation at State or Federal level
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 12:52 PM
Sep 2016

there is no way a court can strike down a law.

Can you tell me in what way this law violates the Constitution?

LuvNewcastle

(16,843 posts)
18. I'm not a strict constructionist.
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 01:17 PM
Sep 2016

I think that making something criminal that is a common necessity is enough to strike down a law. They made it illegal to bathe your baby, for fuck's sake.

CBGLuthier

(12,723 posts)
19. No constitutional right to cleanliness.
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 01:18 PM
Sep 2016

Yeah, I know it is a stupid law but the remedy is on the legislature.

LuvNewcastle

(16,843 posts)
22. Yes, the fault is with the legislature, no doubt.
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 01:27 PM
Sep 2016

Those morons made a stupid law and now the people who elected them (and some who didn't) are paying the price for it. Maybe the court was trying to send a message to Arizona voters about making stupid decisions when they go to the polls. I still think he court had the power to overturn the law, but I can definitely understand your point of view as well. In the end, the fault lies with the people who elected that legislature.

WDIM

(1,662 posts)
28. Yes there is
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 02:39 PM
Sep 2016

In the US constitution there is.

Of course I'm not familiar with Arizona constitution but the US constitution protects all rights the right to clean ones self and their offspring who are unable to clean themselves is a natural right.

CBGLuthier

(12,723 posts)
33. Show me where or admit you are talking out your ass.
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 02:57 PM
Sep 2016

Read it front to back and again and then admit you are very, very wrong, OK.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,294 posts)
35. The decision talks about "parents’ constitutional right to manage and care for their children"
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 03:53 PM
Sep 2016
Finally, the dissent repeats Holle’s hypothetical, unrealistic concerns about
subjecting to criminal prosecutions parents or other child caregivers changing diapers.
Infra, ¶ 52. But if a prosecution actually were to result from such innocent behavior (no
such case has been cited), an “as applied” constitutional challenge would likely have
merit in light of parents’ fundamental, constitutional right to manage and care for their
children.

http://www.azcourts.gov/Portals/0/OpinionFiles/Supreme/2016/CR150348PRHOLLE.pdf

The fundamental liberty interest of natural parents in the care custody, and management of their child is protected by the Fourteenth Amendment

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/455/745/case.html

What the majority decision says is that in this particular case, the touching was not innocent, so they say they're not going to consider if it would be unconstitutional in other cases:

“(A) person to whom a statute may constitutionally be applied may not challenge that statute on the ground that it may conceivably be applied unconstitutionally to others in situations not before the court.”

malthaussen

(17,183 posts)
57. Sure, because a person under A) would have no standing.
Wed Sep 21, 2016, 08:37 PM
Sep 2016

So the Court is saying they won't overturn the law until it is challenged by someone who does have standing, which is arguably stupid, but probably defensible.

-- Mal

WDIM

(1,662 posts)
47. The 9th and 10th amendments protect
Wed Sep 21, 2016, 02:31 PM
Sep 2016

All human rights.

Cleaning ones self is a human right.

The constitution does not grant rights it protects the natural and human rights we all have.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
52. They have to have a legal reason
Wed Sep 21, 2016, 04:03 PM
Sep 2016

I was trying to read that decision to see what it really was. I have a feeling this is being used as an outrage machine.

They could be rebuking the legislature for their wording. The statute may clearly say that and the legislature should repeal and try again.

sarisataka

(18,539 posts)
13. Nice catch-22
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 12:29 PM
Sep 2016

Don't bathe your kids and you are guilty of child neglect. Bathe your kids and you are a child molester.

Response to Stonepounder (Original post)

meow2u3

(24,761 posts)
30. Use the sprayer in your kitchen sink to rinse off your kid's genitals
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 02:45 PM
Sep 2016

Who's the idiot who wrote this POS law to begin with?!

haele

(12,645 posts)
21. So, parents, sitters, and nurses are going to be guilty of either criminal child neglect or
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 01:23 PM
Sep 2016

Child Molestation.

Any appeals lawyer will tell you that if it's in regards to a criminal case, Supreme Court judges don't really look at the right or wrong - or intelligence - of the statutes within a law in this sort of case, but whether or not the ruling against the person was given after due process criteria was satisfied.

If someone wants to change the law through the courts, they can't do it through a criminal case. They need to sue the state over that law, and bring the challenges to the law in front of the judge.


Good going, AZ. Shows you've got a bunch of legislators who never had to actually take care of their kids; people (male or female) obviously have no clue what sort of activity is involved in raising a kid other than throwing money at other "lesser" people who will do the dirty work for them.

Haele

 

EL34x4

(2,003 posts)
25. The problem with being a legislator faced with these types of laws,
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 02:26 PM
Sep 2016

If you vote against them, you are now labeled a "friend of child molesters" by your political opponents.

That's how these poorly-written "tough on crime" laws always get passed. Nobody wants to go on record voting against them.

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
31. Teachers also
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 02:49 PM
Sep 2016

in Day Care, Pre-K, and those who work with Severity Special Needs children in Public Schools.

kcr

(15,315 posts)
24. No.
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 01:30 PM
Sep 2016

Remember that day when the internet thought sharing Netflix passwords was illegal? Did they start swooping in and arresting everyone then? No. That happened because some dissenting judge threw a hissy fit and declared that could happen. Same thing here. This case involved an 11 year old. The dissenting judge didn't like the fact that AZ law says that people who sexually molest kids can't get away with the defense that they didn't have sexual intent. So they claim that's what this means. It doesn't mean that judge is right. Same thing with the Netflix panic judge

ETA reading the law, it DOES allow for a defense of intent. So, I don't get the dissent, here. Does this judge not know that they can't re-write laws? Either way, the headline and article is wrong.

chillfactor

(7,573 posts)
27. I suspect that in Arizona....
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 02:38 PM
Sep 2016

the jails will be filled with parents, caregivers, doctors, nurses, babysitters, etc. I wonder if Arizona has enough jail cells to hold all of these "criminals."

yellowcanine

(35,698 posts)
32. What about testicular exams on young boys??????????????????
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 02:50 PM
Sep 2016

This is what happens when you get a bunch of anti science people making laws.

Stonepounder

(4,033 posts)
42. And so we wait...
Tue Sep 20, 2016, 07:18 PM
Sep 2016

A indigent parent with a baby. Police want some way to bust the parent, so they can arrest based on the law, indigent can't afford bail, child is placed with protective services, indigent waits for trial...and waits...and waits...judge tosses the arrest after indigent has already served a couple of months, and not the indigent has to get the ACLU interested? Even though the case has been kicked out.

No one can see the potential for abuse of this law??

kcr

(15,315 posts)
49. So, will babies just keep changing custody back and forth between parents
Wed Sep 21, 2016, 02:39 PM
Sep 2016

each time they change a diaper? Mom changes a diaper, dad gets custody, then when he changes a diaper mom will win it back...

Somehow, I doubt it.

Bettie

(16,083 posts)
54. No, but parents will use this as ammunition when
Wed Sep 21, 2016, 04:21 PM
Sep 2016

trying to prove that X is an unfit parent. It calls into question what is an appropriate versus inappropriate touch and leaves it open to the interpretation of a judge or social worker.

There is where the abuses can and probably will take place.

dembotoz

(16,796 posts)
50. like i need another reason to stay out of arizona
Wed Sep 21, 2016, 03:38 PM
Sep 2016

good thing my kids are out of high school think i am safe

Mme. Defarge

(8,020 posts)
53. I thought that a law needed to pass the test,
Wed Sep 21, 2016, 04:04 PM
Sep 2016

or meet the standard of being both reasonable and enforceable.

marybourg

(12,606 posts)
56. In AZ it just has to pass the "whisper test."
Wed Sep 21, 2016, 05:45 PM
Sep 2016

The tea bagger constituent/pal whispers a crazy theory or idea into the ear of a tea bagger legislator and 3 months later a law appears.

Remember to one about a doctor having to tell a woman who's had a medical abortion that it can be reversed? That's exactly how it came about.

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