Is the "stereotypical feminist" fictional?

[Archae]

I think so.

The "stereotypical feminist" is a creation mostly of bad sitcom writers and right-wing talk-radio assholes.

The one I mentioned I met who wanted to keep testicles alive in a lab it is beginning to look like she was putting me on, and I haven't seen her for decades.

[Major Nikon]

1. The biggest stereotype is assuming all feminists march to the same beat

[DesertFlower]

5. i agree. nt

[The Magistrate]

2. Pretty Much, Sir

[elleng]

3. YES,

we are NOT stereotypes, we are INDIVIDUALS, always have been, always will be.

[marybourg]

4. What you're calling a stereotypical

feminist is actually a cartoon feminist.

[RainDog]

6. yes

it's a bad stereotype that voids discussion of real issues.

[Scootaloo]

7. Maybe she just wanted YOUR testicles?

You could take it as flattery.

Creepy, creepy, horrifying flattery from a wannabe mad scientist.

But flattery!

[Quantess]

8. Yes, or

some people just need a lot of attention and need to be controversial. But that again is an individual quirk that can be said about individuals from all walks of life.

[Warren DeMontague]

13. You can keep my brain alive in a jar, that's fine.

The nuts are staying put, tho.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

9. Im sure there are a few out there... not to say that it's the norm.

Of course, in a country of 300,000,000 people where millions identify as "feminist", a few hundred or so of these stereotypical militant feminists are out there. Of course, given such large numbers of actual real-world feminists, these aggressive fem types are just a drop in the bucket. Rarer than hens teeth, so to speak.

[DURHAM D]

20. Could I get a list of US

"stereotypical militant feminists" ?

[seabeyond]

26. aggressive fem? no aggressive for women. so unfeminine. i hear ya. nt

[eShirl]

10. they took a caricature and made it a stereotype

[hfojvt]

11. you tell me

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Dworkin

Also, is the stereotypical angry white male fictional?

[REP]

12. She wasn't every feminist; she was one person with whom other feminists did not always agree

As for the "angry white male" archetype, yes, that's a load of shit, too.

[seabeyond]

28. i am actually going to do some research on this woman and see how truly evil she is.

shamefully, i have allowed the men on this board (not a real good or accurate source) define dworkin for me. they do the same with Catharine MacKinnon. i did some research on mackinnon. damn, she is impressive. has accomplished more than me, by far, in every aspect of her life. who the fuck am i, with ALL she has and still is accomplishing for women across the world, to throw her away because a handful of men on du reject her.

[Scootaloo]

40. Well, as a male, I see nothing wrong with Dworkin

It's the intentional misinterpretation of what she's written that bothers me. The main criticism against her for instance, is that she has claimed "all penetration is rape," which isn't anything she's ever said; hers was a criticism of the patriarchal view of sexual intercourse, wherein it's men "fighting" to "have" a woman. See the field of "pick-up artists" for a glaring neon example.

Basically the whole idea that Dworkin was crazy, or even "evil" is because she was pretty unabashed in pointing out how male-supremacist our society is. Makes a lot of people uncomfortable, of both genders. it's sort of like how people nowadays react when you point out racism is alive and well and still a strong factor in our culture.

[seabeyond]

42. i think i am in love... scoota*kick ass*loo.

this was just a blast and you do not have a clue why. i am reading your posts as my two sons, 17 and 14 come in here. i am so impressed with your ability to look at fact and reality without taking it personally and i am telling my boys about your post, so they see what i admire in the ability to not internalize to draw conclusion. in the process we had to discuss dworkin and mackinnon to get to your post so they understood where you were going.

results? i half hour or more kick ass intellectual conversation with my boys on feminism and gender assignment. so thank you. you brought a fun into my house that all three of us enjoyed.

and yes. what you say in your post. i had heard a couple people recently actually speaking out about this and that is what kicked me into gear on this thinking. and thank you to all that made me think twice

[Scootaloo]

44. Well... Glad to contribute!

[EOTE]

74. "Intercourse is the pure, sterile, formal expression of men's contempt for women,"

That sounds pretty damned crazy to me. That may not be equivalent to saying that "all penetration is rape", but it's pretty damned close and both are fucking insane. I'd say she was both evil AND crazy.

[Scootaloo]

75. You must have a low standard for "evil," then

Idi Amin, Ted Bundy, and Andrea Dworkin all in one go?

The phrase makes plenty of sense when taken in context, as a criticism of how sex is perceived and enacted in our society, as an act done to a woman, solely for the pleasure of the man.

I'd suggest picking up "Intercourse" the next time you stop by the library; if for no other reason than to take in all 300 pages instead of just one line on page 253.

[EOTE]

76. Yes, one who interprets the actions of just about every man in the world as "evil" I'd consider

to be evil herself. She's saying that whenever a man has sex with a woman, it's to demonstrate their contempt for her. That's pretty fucking evil in my book. Not yours, I presume? And no way in hell would I waste my time reading the entirety of that tripe. You've actually read all 300 pages of that bullshit? So please inform me how her saying that sex is how men express their contempt for women is actually her saying something relatively sex positive. I'm eagerly awaiting your description. I'm kind of guessing you'll have a much easier time explaining the intricacies of My Little Pony.

[hifiguy]

77. The quoted statement is essentially an argument

(though it scarcely deserves the term) that the way mammalian genitalia evolved over countless millennia is some sort of plot to impose the patriarchy.

Charles Darwin is laughing himself sick somewhere if there is a hereafter.

[REP]

46. I've actually read quite a bit of her work.

Some of it I agree with; some I don't.

[seabeyond]

49. that seems to be consistent with most all peoples work. thanks rep. nt

[REP]

55. Yup. I might have missed the demonic writings, though

but a lot of what I read of hers made sense. It's like Lolita, which is about America and Europe yet everyone thinks is about seductive underage girls (and even in the novel, Delores 'Lolita' Haze is molested and later drugged and raped by Humbert Humbert - hardly what people think they "know" about Nabakov's novel).

[seabeyond]

56. see... i figured

lolita would piss me off to. but, in our book club i am reading a 1000 white women. granted, only on the first chapter but i am really liking this woman and how the author has written it, so far. so, maybe there is hope and i can try other books. that sounds interesting how you describe lolita. i figured i would get pissed, and i am not, lol.

way far off dworkin now.

[REP]

58. It's not my favorite Nabakov; I like Bend Sinister or Pale Fire much more

I've read all his work; I enjoy his writing and wordplay. Parts of Lolita are quite funny.

You might want to start your Nabakovian adventure with something more assessible, like Pnin.

[Nikia]

48. Although she some of the things that she was said and wrote may have seen extreme

I think that she did so to make a point about important issues that people face under patriarchy. If she was overly polite and tried to temper her message so no one would be offended, maybe no one would get it. Maybe people don't get it though because they take the most extreme quotes out of context or focus on them to create a false summary of her work. I think that her work is important to Feminism, though, because we can examine the points that she was trying to make and see how we can realistically change society which will probably be less radical.
I don't see why this is a big deal. Marx's and Lenin's work was important to the Labor movement for the same reason, but few on DU are saying that Labor Union's should be completely discounted because Marx and Lenin's vision was too extreme and offensive to some people.

[seabeyond]

50. this was my awakening. i know why people do it on du. that was the lesson learned

that i really value. that i bought into.

thanks for this post. this is what i am hearing about dworkin. we have to remember the time. polite wasnt going to cut it. it was all new, women speaking out. and also, of course there were gonna be errors, because the message did not have time to define and redefine itself.

in the last couple days i have been called one end of the spectrum to the other. it depends how someone takes what i say. even though i am consistent in what i am saying. no different today.

it is all fascinating to me.

[HiPointDem]

15. andrea dworkin, 1966

andrea dworkin and grandson, 200?

[Odin2005]

47. She is a single, very disturbed individual.

She was viciously sexually abused as a child and became a very disturbed adult because of it. using her as an example of a "Radical Feminist" is disingenuous.

[hfojvt]

60. it is?

Regardless of how she came to be the way she was, or how many people she is, the question was if such a person was fictional or really existed in reality. Also, she wrote books and had people, presumably, who bought them, read them and agreed with them.

[quaker bill]

16. Yes

So was Archie Bunker (from All in the Family). But my dad grew up on the Bronx at about the same fictional time period the character was based in. He liked Archie and would occasionally act just like him... (we did not get along that well when he was doing that)

I have met alot of feminists. A rare few fit the fictional stereotype pretty well, but most were nothing like it. That is the problem with stereotypes, people are actually quite variable.

[Warren DeMontague]

17. There are extremists, but they no more represent all Feminists than Fred Phelps represents all

Christians.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11396402

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1139&pid=6468

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/25/radical-feminism-trans-radfem2012?INTCMP=SRCH

There are small pockets of increasingly out of touch ideologues who seem to be experiencing mounting levels of frustration that no one takes them seriously, least of all younger women. They may claim a monopoly on "feminism", but they definitely don't have one.


Also, for some reason, these isolated pockets of hate and extremism seem more popular in places like Australia, or England, or Canada, as opposed to the US.

[obamanut2012]

52. Your last paragraph is very interesting to me

Because it's something I've also noticed over the years.

[Shankapotomus]

18. I think extremism comes about

when any groups initial requests for justice get ignored. And so, as hurtful as it is for me to be labeled evil by extreme feminists because I am a man, I understand that extremism is sometimes a process people go through when learning how to deal with their negative feelings toward certain sectors of their culture. I don't try to aggravate it by telling them they are wrong (i think most of feminism actually helps men by showing us how to be better men) and how they should feel and react. I let them be and let them go through their anger. And hopefully they will come to understand that not all men are challenging their calls for justice and tone down the vitriol.

It doesn't mean I tolerate hate speech. But when I encounter such people who leave me no way to solve the issues between us because they are offended by my very existence no matter how much I agree with them, I avoid them like the plague and let them go through what they have to go through.

[Arkansas Granny]

19. I find most "sterotypical" anything to be fictional.

[raccoon]

21. Well said! nt

[snooper2]

34. We should embrace our differences and love each other...

As ridiculous stereotypes shown by the Greatness that is My Favorite Martian!

The Stereotypes Song

[FrodosPet]

39. Stereotypes comefrom somewhere

Obviously, there are NO universals, but stereotypes rarely develop for no reason. They may be exaggerated, they may only be a small part of the actual population of that stereotyped group, but there ARE people who DO fit almost every stereotype.

So a blanket denial of the commonly conceived attitudes and attributes of groups is just as incorrect as a blanket attribution, and is nothing more than a denial of reality. The key is to keep it in perspective, and to keep the facts about the individual as the key to one's decisions.

[bemildred]

22. Pretty much.

Like the returning VietNam GIs being spit on, it's largely fiction.

[unreadierLizard]

23. I think they exist, but

way outside of the mainstream. In that most feminists would disagree with them and generally ignore their insane ramblings.

I've met a stereotypical feminist in a psychology teacher I had in high school - I won't repeat the story because apparently, I'm trying to make right wing lies and undermine the feminist movement by describing the ONE bad experience I had with feminists.(That, and I was called a liar about 4 times after posting it.)

[11 Bravo]

24. She is not fictional, but I don't believe she exists in great numbers. I will never forget ...

maybe 30 years ago, holding a door open for a young woman. She snarled at me, "I don't need a fucking man to open doors for me, asshole!" I had never had an experience remotely close to that, nor have I had one since; but I remember it vividly.

[redqueen]

25. How is that a stereotypical feminist?

Maybe it was just a woman who had a bad day and lashed out at you because you were a convenient target due to the sexist form of politeness you used?

[unreadierLizard]

27. ....What?

I hold open doors for anyone who's near the door I'm about to go through, man or woman.

How is being polite sexist?

[redqueen]

29. Do you stand aside and hold the door open for men?

During discussions of this practice, two distinct practices are often conflated.

Everyone agrees that holding the door open behind you as you pass through for the next person is polite behavior.

Opening the door and standing aside is something most men do only for women, people with their hands full, or elderly people. Doing it for people with mobility issues or with their hands full is reasonable. Doing it because the person is a woman is sexist.

[unreadierLizard]

31. As I said, I hold open the door for the next person behind me.

Sometimes it's a man, other times it's a woman.

[11 Bravo]

33. If I approach a door simultaneously with another person, I routinely hold the door for them ...

regardless of their sex. I reject your blanket assertion that I was engaging in sexist behavior. I believe that the young woman I encountered was remarkably rude.

[redqueen]

38. You're in a very small minority and you know it.

It is a perfectly reasonable inference that anyone doing that for a woman would be doing it for the sexist reasons that most do. It's "benevolent" sexism sure, but it's still sexism and the tolerance of it enables the rest IMO.


Yes, she was remarkably rude, that's not even up for debate.

What we don't know is if she was a feminist... yet the assumption is that she was a "stereotypical feminist".

[malthaussen]

51. I do the same, 11 Bravo, and I agree she was rude.

I don't understand why people object to being offered a courtesy, even if that courtesy is subliminally sexist. The intent of the action was kindness, and I find it hard to believe that the pain of being offered a courtesy outweighs the pain of being attacked for it. But then, I am so rarely offered courtesy.

If the woman was much younger than you, then she owed respect for your grey hairs. Why is it cool to ignore that respect, but not cool to ignore the respect owed to gender by not opening a door?

-- Mal

[JoePhilly]

57. I do this also ... regardless of the sex of the other person.

If I get there first, I hold the door open for them.

If I get there ahead of them buy about 5-10 steps, I "back hold it". If they are back more than 10 or more steps, they are on their own (I do have things to do after all).

I regularly get stuck holding the door for people going in BOTH directions. I hold it for the person who was right behind me, and then some one else comes out the other way, and then a new person has come and I let them go to.

I've also had the experience you had, although only once, about 20 years ago ... I held the door for a woman who happened to be right behind me. She stopped and gave me an earful about how she did not need a man to hold doors for her. I was stunned, and as she glared at me I said, "Its ok, If I get to the door first, I hold it for men, for women, for polite people, and for rude people too. And I never expect a thank you."

Except if I am honest I do expect a "thanks" ... and I do hate it when I hold the door for a bunch of people, and not one is willing to even burp a "thanks".

[hughee99]

62. I don't think you're in that small of a minority.

I think holding doors is much more common that some may think, and not just as a "sexist form of politeness", but people (men and women) holding the door for people (men and women).

I do it, and see it from others every single day.

[Harmony Blue]

68. It is fairly common in the U.S.

and around the world to hold the door for another stranger. Human beings are at the core cooperative species always have been and always will be.

[polly7]

69. Where I am, holding the door for anyone ... man, woman, young or old is

just the norm, it would be considered rude not to. I sometimes end up holding them for so long I feel like I should get a tip.

[smirkymonkey]

63. So do I, and I am a woman. It's just how I was raised.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

45. Welcome to DU

Don't worry, it still makes me shake my head too.

[snooper2]

36. "sexist form of politeness you used"

Oh come on, I know you hate all of societies norms but can you let the hold-the-door open thing drop...

Please! Just that one LOL

[Ruby the Liberal]

43. Wait, what?

I am a female and I always stand aside and hold a door if someone is approaching as I am leaving, no matter their age or sex. That is just simple politeness. I do have a tendency to mutter "you're welcome" if not at least acknowledged with so much as a nod though...

Are you suggesting that I am sexist because of it?

[obamanut2012]

53. I do that too, except for one thing

I will actually say, "You're welcome!" loud enough for them to hear.

Yesterday, I reached the door of the gym a few seconds before a quite fit young guy. I opened the door for him and said, "After you," and he smiled and thanked me. I don't know. I was a Girl Scout, maybe that makes a difference or something.

[Harmony Blue]

64. I too do the same as I am a loving human being

whether you are male or female not all gestures of kindness involve some personal gain. Holding a door to a complete stranger is very genuine act of kindness compared to a person you are familiar with.

[PamKlaus]

54. I feel sad for you. n/t

[redqueen]

59. Who are you and why should I care?

What a childish attempt at a taunt.

You can be proud of your grade school level expert burns, whoever you are. Great job.

[Harmony Blue]

65. It breaks my heart to see

so much pent up anger and hatred. But I do not pity, as embracing a reality must come within.

[Arkana]

67. It's sexist to open doors for women?

Since when?

[redqueen]

71. Since forever, if that courtesy is only provided for women.

Which despite protestations is how it usually works.

It's not rocket science and its not breaking news.

The disingenuousness on this issue is.... well, completely unsurprising, really.

[Comrade_McKenzie]

37. Wow, just wow. nt

[Taitertots]

30. You can find someone who will say stupid things in any large group of people

Branding the radicals as stereotypical is something people who are opposed to moderates do to discredit them.

[malthaussen]

32. Given the definition of "stereotype,"

: something conforming to a fixed or general pattern; especially : a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgment (Webster's)

One would have to conclude that she is by definition fictional.

If, however, you're talking about whether she's fictional in the sense of "is the thought of a unicorn a real thought," then no, she is not.

-- Mal

[Comrade_McKenzie]

35. Most stereotypes are fictional.

Real people aren't as one-dimensional as some of these amateur writers make them out to be. Real people are complex and made up of many shades of grey.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

41. Pigeon holes are for pigeons.

[librechik]

61. who knows? They are all in hiding.

any one of them who pokes a nose out of the underbrush gets it punched. Yay America!

[Arkana]

66. Largely.

Occasionally you'll meet a bra-burning man-eating nutjob (I have on at least one occasion) but by and large they're a creation of Rush fucking Limbaugh's diseased little mind.

[redqueen]

70. Did you borrow that description from Rush? nt

[4th law of robotics]

72. I guess it depends on how you mean it

Stereotypical as in man-hating?

I'm sure they exist. There are nuts in any movement and hate is a universal human quality. So saying there are no feminists who hate men is absurd. Especially since anyone can call themselves a feminist (it's not like there's a bloodtest or something you have to pass).

If you mean it some other way then I would have to see your definition first.

The worst stereotypes of any given group often exist. You don't often fail betting on humans to be awful.

The question is "how many" and "are they representative"

[MineralMan]

73. It's a caricature, more than a stereotype.

At least that's what I think. A composite image that doesn't really reflect anything with any accuracy.

None of the feminists I have ever known fit that description.