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Wed Sep 28, 2016, 01:35 PM

“Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.

This Margaret Atwood quote can’t be repeated enough. “Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.

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Reply “Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them. (Original post)
niyad Sep 2016 OP
Loki Liesmith Sep 2016 #1
Warpy Sep 2016 #10
Akicita Sep 2016 #46
tblue37 Oct 2016 #56
Francis Booth Sep 2016 #16
deathrind Sep 2016 #51
guillaumeb Sep 2016 #2
niyad Sep 2016 #3
guillaumeb Sep 2016 #5
Orrex Sep 2016 #4
niyad Sep 2016 #6
Brickbat Sep 2016 #7
SunSeeker Sep 2016 #8
sheshe2 Sep 2016 #9
Akicita Sep 2016 #11
Fast Walker 52 Sep 2016 #12
ck4829 Sep 2016 #18
Fast Walker 52 Sep 2016 #27
Akicita Sep 2016 #20
REP Sep 2016 #31
Akicita Sep 2016 #47
Mc Mike Sep 2016 #42
Akicita Sep 2016 #44
Mc Mike Sep 2016 #49
Akicita Sep 2016 #50
Mc Mike Oct 2016 #53
annabanana Oct 2016 #55
tblue37 Oct 2016 #57
Mc Mike Oct 2016 #58
tblue37 Oct 2016 #62
Mc Mike Oct 2016 #63
annabanana Oct 2016 #54
Mc Mike Oct 2016 #64
smirkymonkey Oct 2016 #59
Mc Mike Oct 2016 #65
Francis Booth Sep 2016 #17
LanternWaste Sep 2016 #22
Francis Booth Sep 2016 #25
LanternWaste Sep 2016 #21
Egnever Sep 2016 #24
REP Sep 2016 #32
Akicita Sep 2016 #48
smirkymonkey Oct 2016 #61
Shandris Sep 2016 #13
Patiod Sep 2016 #41
mountain grammy Sep 2016 #14
Betty88 Sep 2016 #19
JanMichael Sep 2016 #26
mountain grammy Sep 2016 #33
smirkymonkey Sep 2016 #45
Ilsa Sep 2016 #15
Skittles Sep 2016 #23
niyad Sep 2016 #28
niyad Sep 2016 #29
ronnie624 Sep 2016 #30
Francis Booth Sep 2016 #43
smirkymonkey Oct 2016 #60
Francis Booth Oct 2016 #66
mopinko Sep 2016 #34
niyad Sep 2016 #35
mopinko Sep 2016 #36
niyad Sep 2016 #37
niyad Sep 2016 #38
mopinko Sep 2016 #39
niyad Sep 2016 #40
kestrel91316 Sep 2016 #52

Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 01:37 PM

1. Are men actually afraid women (or anyone) will laugh at them though?

Honestly, I can't remember caring.

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Response to Loki Liesmith (Reply #1)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 02:50 PM

10. Deeply so

The male ego is a very fragile thing, easily bruised.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #10)

Fri Sep 30, 2016, 10:00 AM

46. Are you sure about that? Seems like you hear of more girls who commit suicide from being laughed at

or bullied by their female classmates than guys.

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Response to Akicita (Reply #46)

Sat Oct 1, 2016, 07:51 PM

56. Men are more likely to kill someone who laughs at them, not themselves. nt

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Response to Loki Liesmith (Reply #1)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 04:10 PM

16. I stopped caring when I was 17 or so. nt

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Response to Loki Liesmith (Reply #1)

Fri Sep 30, 2016, 06:31 PM

51. +1

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 01:42 PM

2. Margaret Atwood is one of my favorite authors.

First experienced her gift with "A Handmaid's Tale".

And the quote illustrates her gift.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/27/why-are-some-men-so-angry

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #2)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 01:46 PM

3. she has long been one of my favouriites.

thank you for that article. would you please post it as its own OP, here and in gd?

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Response to niyad (Reply #3)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 01:48 PM

5. It is a somewhat older article.

But yes, I will.

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 01:47 PM

4. What you need is a man to explain to you why that's wrong.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #4)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 01:54 PM

6. ah, yes, of course. if only. . . .

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 02:04 PM

7. K&R for a classic.

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 02:27 PM

8. K & R

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 02:34 PM

9. Great Quote.

K&R

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 03:41 PM

11. Was Atwood refering to a Middle Eastern culture? The men and women I know don't typically go through

their day thinking like that.

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Response to Akicita (Reply #11)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 03:47 PM

12. there is plenty of dmoestic abuse in this country and all over the world

 

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Response to Fast Walker 52 (Reply #12)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 04:28 PM

18. That's *different* though

'Our' people who do things like this, the Elliot Rodgers and Chris Harper-Mercers to the people who just fixate and act against one person... They are just these magical and mystical islands of murder that are not influenced by anyone else, not indoctrinated by nobody else, not taught these attitudes by anyone else; they just appear out of thin air with a weapon conjured by magical energies and with some mindset that is not shared by anyone else on the planet ever go and gun down some people before getting killed themselves.

It's only when 'They' do it, it has any connection or bearing to ideology or culture.

, from me anyway.

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Response to ck4829 (Reply #18)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 07:42 PM

27. was hoping that was sarcasm

 

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Response to Fast Walker 52 (Reply #12)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 04:31 PM

20. True. But if you asked typical men and women to list the top ten things they fear I think being

laughed at by a woman or being killed by a man would be way down the list if even on the list unless they are in an abusive situation.

Spiders, snakes, dark, flying, heights, etc. would be much more likely. Maybe a majority in a subset of people such as those in a women's shelter or street prostitutes, or men in a mental institution may have those fears but for the author to say the general population lives with those fears I just don't buy. I can't think of any guys I know who walk around being fearful that a woman might laugh at him. I can think of a couple of women I know who were in abusive relationships who may at the time have feared the men might kill them. By far the exception rather than the rule

Just my opinion.

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Response to Akicita (Reply #20)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 10:04 PM

31. That's so cute!

What an adorable thing to post!

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Response to REP (Reply #31)

Fri Sep 30, 2016, 10:05 AM

47. Thank you so much.

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Response to Akicita (Reply #20)

Thu Sep 29, 2016, 02:21 PM

42. The statement is "archetypal", and you somehow confused that descriptive word with "atypical".

Last edited Tue Oct 4, 2016, 06:26 AM - Edit history (3)

It's talking about the massive far-right initiatives, from fundy "christian" orgs with millions of members and outsized political influence, talking about the rightwing pols that keep pushing their far reaching laws that attack women, and that keep appointing freakish guy judges, who come down against the woman victim and for the man perp. It's talking about rightie pols who are backing a guy for prez that raped his wife in pain and rage, tearing out big chunks of her hair, because his anti-baldness surgery didn't go well. Do you know what Ivana was thinking at the time, Aki?

It's talking about the crazy millions of followers of those movements in the above para, and saying even our side has people in it that are susceptible to those bad archetypal ideas.

It's talking about our society from the top levels down to the bottom. It's talking about the constant stream of violent crimes vs women coming out of the elite frats and sports teams, about Judge Prosser strangling Judge Bradley, about that other Judge letting Brock Turner off with a slap on the wrist. It's about the judges and law enforcement people who let domestic violence go unchecked at the lower socio economic levels of society. Who let this stuff happen because domestic violence lets the lower class men to blow off steam, and as long as they're punching down, they're not upsetting the people who set the system in place that engendered all the rage and pent-up violent feelings in the first place.

All that animosity toward women, hate and rage, doesn't come from all US men, but there are millions that it does come from, and it's a sign of fear. The only actual fear men have -- in man-woman relationship terms -- is that women won't think the men are dominant and better, so are scared "to death" of being laughed at. Your statement about spiders and heights is talking about phobias, an irrational fear when you look at the actuarial stats, that some particular thing is going to kill you, and you hold that fear consciously and subconsciously. Looking at the same actuarial stats, violence from men against women is a much more rational fear that women might hold consciously and subconsciously.

Hitler was atypical, there was only one Austrian corporal who took over Germany in the '30's, but his aryan superman idea, where the aryan kills or enslaves all other races to rule the world, that was an archetypal idea that the atypical guy used to accomplish all his massively evil and catastrophic deeds. The whole German population wasn't on board, he may have only had 10% of Germans who were hard-core committed nazis, but look at the massive amount of evil and damage that was done. Nobody rightfully fears that any and every Austrian corporal will prove to atypically start a world war and kill millions. Every (sane) body does fear the archetypal ideas that one atypical corporal used, though.

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #42)

Thu Sep 29, 2016, 08:55 PM

44. Obvious we are not on the same page.

For you to say that "The only actual fear men have is that women won't think the men are dominant and better, so are scared "to death" of being laughed at" is just pure hogwash and shows that you obviously don't have a clue about what men fear. Most men's biggest fear is for the health, safety and well being of their family just like women. Many fear they will not be able to keep or get the woman they love, fear they may lose their livelihood in the next downturn, fear they are not raising their children right, fear they are not saving enough for retirement. Some men fear they will get caught cheating or caught stealing or committing some other criminal act or that their children may get into trouble. Way down the list, if even on the list, for the vast majority of men is the fear that a woman might laugh at him. Yet you state that is their only actual fear.

Do you really think that a man who is sitting by his daughter's hospital bed while she fights for her life from an accident or disease has only one actual fear and that is that some woman might walk in to the room and laugh at him? Just absurd. There are dregs of society everywhere and if there are men whose only fear is being laughed at by a woman who doesn't think men are dominant, they certainly qualify as dregs. But I guarantee you they are atypical. If you live in an area where all the men seem like that then my advice to you is get the hell out of there. I sure wouldn't want to live in a community like that. I've never seen a community like that.

If you look at your actuarial stats, you'll find that for women ages 18-44, homicide is responsible for less than 4% of deaths. Although I would guess that most of these homicides are committed by men, women do kill women so the chances of a woman getting killed by a man is even less. Of course even one is one too many. Looking at that same actuarial data you are so fond of, homicide is responsible for over 11% of deaths for men in that same age group. Again, I think we can assume that men are doing the vast majority of the killing. So based on the data, men should have a much, much, greater fear of being killed by a man than a woman should be. Almost a three times greater fear.

Hitler was not all that atypical. History is replete with madmen who take power and then have their countries or kingdoms commit horrible acts against other peoples and their own people. Stalin, Mao, Hirohito, Pol Pot, to name a few of the more recent ones. The vast majority of citizens in all those countries were decent people who just wanted to live their lives but instead got caught up in the propaganda and nationalism of the dictator.

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Response to Akicita (Reply #44)

Fri Sep 30, 2016, 01:55 PM

49. It's fair to say we're not on the same page.

Last edited Tue Oct 4, 2016, 08:12 AM - Edit history (2)

Deaths/year, spiders and snakes:

"...To that end, I gathered the statistics on animal-caused fatalities in the U.S. ... as snakes (6 deaths per year) and spiders (7 deaths per year).
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/06/16/chart-the-animals-that-are-most-likely-to-kill-you-this-summer/ "

Deaths/day, women killed by current or former male partner:

"3 The number of women murdered every day by a current or former male partner in the U.S." ... "1,509 The number of women murdered by men they knew in 2011. Of the 1,509 women, 926 were killed by an intimate parter and 264 of those were killed by an intimate partner during an argument."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/23/domestic-violence-statistics_n_5959776.html

I'm not "so fond of" those actuarial stats, but they exist nonetheless. Deaths from the latter cause are 215 X greater than deaths from the former. There's a 21,400% increased likelihood that a woman would be killed by a guy she knew, as opposed to being killed by a spider about which she may have a phobia.

Only 4 (or 3) out of a hundred young to middle aged women who die actually get murdered by men, so we can dismiss that with a piously mouthed 8 word statement, and move on to talking about how it's worse for men. Your 4% stat is a bit odd, what's the source? My CDC source says that premature deaths by homicide are 4.5% of the total number, for Females aged 10 -14, 8% for ages 15 -19 and 20 -24, 5% for 25 -34, then down to 2.2% for 35 -44. There's a 5.8 % average chance of homicide being listed as cause of death, across the 15 - 44 age groups. Not 3 or 4, close to 6 out of a hundred.
http://www.cdc.gov/women/lcod/2011/WomenAll_2011.pdf

(The corresponding numbers for males are 6, 19, 18, 11, 5 %, across the 5 age groups, but that's overwhelmingly men killing men, and this o.p. was about women and mens' relationships to each other, and how they'd like not to be killed, please, whether or not they rudely laughed at someone. So you're probably better off making the point that men are the real victims here in a separate o.p., because it's off topic here.)

Homicide is the 6th highest ranked cause of death for girls 10 - 14, 4th highest for girls and women aged 15 -19, 4th for 20 -24, 5th for 25 -34, and 8th for 35 -44. The higher ranked causes of death, in all of those age groups, vary. The higher ranked causes include suicide, cancer, heart disease and other diseases, and the catch-all "unintentional injuries" designation, which would include car wrecks, falls, skiing accidents, hunting accidents, surgical error, etc., you name it.

Almost nobody in existence stays huddled in their room quivering with fear, waiting for that final moment they just know is coming. John Candy did a funny SCTV sketch, that took the form of an ad for an upcoming Western TV series featuring the title character "Yellowbelly". Candy goes around a late 1800's western town dressed up like a gunfighter, cringing and snivelling in fear with every interaction he has with all the other townspeople. Nobody does that in reality. It was amusing to watch, but nobody actually operates day to day in that caricaturized manner John Candy and you have imagined.

Nobody has a deep specific justified fear of becoming a victim of all "unintentional injuries" combined. Being afraid of all of them combined would be like being afraid of being killed like Rasputin, by being shot, stabbed, bludgeoned, strangled, poisoned, tossed out the window, and drowned, all in a couple hours. People that commit suicide can't justifiably state that their greatest archetypal fear is that they'll die by suicide. People are specifically afraid of cancer and heart disease, and other diseases, so they strategize and act to eat right, avoid unhealthy activities, hope for medical advances and contribute to causes to combat those diseases. People advocate "stop smoking, don't do drugs, don't drive drunk", etc. to fight against all those higher ranked deaths.

Then we come to that 4th or 5th ranked cause of death. That's the one where the girl or woman eats right, has a perfectly healthy body, dodged falling victim to some disease she irrationally feared more than necessary, avoided every one of the myriad possible low percentage occurrance of accidents and mischances that could be fatal, and didn't act on feelings of suicidal depression. They dodged all those bullets that caused the higher ranked 63 out of every hundred early womens' deaths. Now 6 of them are going to be killed. They're completely innocent, it's an illegal felony, it's non-standard atypical behavior that's frowned upon and could be prevented and avoided. Murder adds another 10% to the death totals attributable to the first through third highest ranked death causes.

As a way of combatting these avoidable archetypally typical deaths, coming to terms mentally and intellectually with them, strategizing over tactics and discussiong them, an intelligent thinker defined this large scale threatening phenomenon with a well-thought out, deeply true statement about a fundamentally characteristic innate universal prototype. You say, "ah, it's only 3 or 4 %" "of course even one death is too many" "so let's stop talking about it and talk about men". A counter to your 8 word dismissal, that you thinly disguised as a concession or admission, is "as a strategy, discussing this archetype is justified."

And that's just violent murders. You realize, of course, that Sandra Fluke was trying to testify to the repug congressional experts about life and death womens' health issues. Millions of intellectually and morally unsound Americans put those repugs into office, and millions subscribe to the intellectually and morally unsound philosophies that rightie fundy "christians" pushed to cause the "red meat for the base" empanelment of the all-male womens' health "expert" panel the repugs convened, to which Fluke tried to offer testimony. All she was saying was that Georgetown is a tax-free Catholic institution that depends on tax-dollar subsidies, and there are life threatening health issues like ovarian cysts and endometriosis which are treated by birth control pills. So the pill should be covered as part of the health plan, despite the "moral" objections of whiny freeloading religious zealot groups.

The results of Fluke's efforts were that Limbaugh attacked her over and over again in national media broadcasts with every type of "loose woman" slur he could broadcast. He pretended that he didn't even know how the pill works, pretended that he thought a woman has to take one birth control pill each time before she has sex, so covering the drug for those nymphos would cost so much money. He had to tell the most outrageously dimwitted lie, in order to back the "womens' health experts" in the gop. Keep in mind that the same guy not only got caught out as a oxycontin prescription abusing criminal drug addict, but also got caught and detained by customs when returning from the Dominican Republic with unlawfully possessed prescription Viagra.

All Sandra was saying was "It would be nice if women didn't have to die because of your 'morals'." The people she was talking to were fundy "christians", rightwing nut repugs, and that bloated swine nazi propagandist. None of those deaths due to denied medical access fit into the category of "women killed by men", of course, but the nexus of fundies, repugs, and propagandists involved in that Fluke case perfectly epitomizes the target of the archetypal statement Atwood made.

Those creeps only get away with these hateful murderous attacks because a big chunk of the population doesn't adequately do anything to oppose or call them out for it. They're "not on board" with that bad archetype but don't care enough to oppose it, and so hold a candle to it continuing to progress in its attacks. That means that essentially, fundamentally, they are on board with it. You aren't on board with them, and despise them? Beautiful. Now, though you have free time, because you're not busy attacking those archetypal bad guys, how about putting a hold on your "rhetorical philosophic realpolitik-al reality-based" opposition to the people who are attacking that archetype and those archetypal badguys.

Do you know what Ivana was thinking when that orange nazi turd, that millions of repugs are trying to put in charge of our country, was violently sexually assaulting her, aki? I couldn't figure out if you did, from your response. Of course, she isn't part of your "3 or 4%", or the CDC's 5.8%.

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #49)

Fri Sep 30, 2016, 06:20 PM

50. Nice try trying to put words in my mouth. Nowhere did I state that people think they are more likely

to die from snakes or spiders than by being killed by a man. I appreciate all the hard work disproving a point that was never made. Everybody knows that you stand a much higher chance of dying in an auto accident than by a snakebite but most people are more scared of snakes than driving or riding in a car. I know I am.

I have no problems and support your comments concerning Sandra Bland, the fundies, and the repugs.

I abhor all domestic violence and any violence against women. I have a special hatred of rapists.

Where I differ with you is the expectation that women should fear being killed by a man more than men even though men are much more likely to be killed by a man. It makes sense that if any problem affects one sex three times more than the other sex, then the sex that is most affected should be the most fearful of the problem. There seems to be a tinge of sexism in thinking otherwise. Like maybe you think that women are mentally weaker and should cower more in fear when faced with the same problem as a man. My opinion is that women are just as strong mentally as men so why would they be more fearful than men of dying at the hand of a man when it is much more likely to happen to men. Alternatively, maybe you think that a man's life is just not as important as a woman's life so their fears shouldn't count as much.

Also, your comment that the only real fear that men have is that they will be laughed at by women is totally sexist and insulting.

Only Ivana knows what she was thinking. I can imagine what she was thinking because a very close loved one of mine woke up to a knife to her throat and was brutally raped so I know what she went through. Ergo, my intense hatred of rapists.

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Response to Akicita (Reply #50)

Sat Oct 1, 2016, 01:13 PM

53. No. I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth.

Last edited Sun Mar 4, 2018, 02:07 AM - Edit history (2)

Your first post brought up irrational phobias, like spiders and snakes. Your second post mocked my "actuarial stats" statement. So I looked up the stats to try to show you the difference in mortality rates, between irrational subconscious and conscious phobia driven fears, and rational subconsicous and conscious fears as described in Marge's archetypal phrase.

There's some things I agree with in your post 50, I'm not trying to alienate you, but do regard your statements vs the o.p. as alienating. But your "differ" ences from me, regarding my "expectations", puzzle me a bit. I don't pretend to tell women what they "should think" regarding the existence of a murderous threat from evil archetype oriented men. I observed their statements about what they do think, and assess the ideas myself. In this thread, you tell women what they should think, then say I'm doing so via my "expectations of what they should think". They say what they think, you say they think wrong, I say they think right but you think wrong, then you say I tell them what to think. At least, that's how I see things, and it confuses rather than wounds me.

One thing I notice, though, is you're sticking to your "4 or 3%" stat, and "11%" stat for men. It's helpful when you make claims like that to add a link to your source for that info. And you're brushing aside the fact that the killers of men and women are mostly always men (Over 90%, sez the Justice Dept.: http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf "Males were convicted of the vast majority of homicides in the United States, representing 90.5% of the total number of offenders." ).

I suppose everybody has a healthy fear of being killed, but this o.p. argument is about the inter-relationship between men and women, and as we already established, men do most of the killing. Once in a blue moon, you'll get your aileen wuornoses, or your squeeky frommes, but they don't factor in much overall to tip the "murderer gender" scales.

You have things a bit backwards, it's not that "women are most affected so should be most fearful of the problem", it's that "men affect the murder rates in the most negative way (by driving them up). So women (and men) should be more cognizant of the problem", and think strategically and act tactically to deal with it. The Atwood archetype statement is a tactic, a strategy. I remember one quote that defined "power" as "the ability to understand and define phenomena, and make a change". Something like that. I think Atwood (and people who agree with her) are intelligently summing up the situation with the knowledge easily available at hand, are strategically thinking, and using archetypal concepts in a tactical way.

I've already inoculated myself against your "Mike pushes mortality salience" accusation -- that I "believe women are mentally weaker and should cower in fear" -- with my Yellowbelly analysis. Enjoy:



There's a fair amount of highly negative action in the 1 min clip, but the satire was more confirmational commentary than celebration. Katherine O'Hare is comedy gold, but Andrea Martin was the Queen of broad physical comedy in that show.

The next line, after your already-defused false "sexist mortal salience promoter" charge, seems like an admonition to "toughen up, ladies", about this "whole woman man killer" thing. The admonition is part of a phrasing argument you make to further a charge vs me of "sexism vs. women", and the phrase has 4 mentions of "men" and one of "women". So to sum up, that's "toughen up ladies...men men men men ... Mike is sexist." Ironic. It's tough to wrap my head around this one, aki.

Your next sentence states that I'm more sexist against men. Some prejudiced people, when called out on it, will say "I'm not racist, I hate everybody equally." Maybe I could re-tool that phrase in response to your charges.

We're still stuck on the "women fear death men valid?" half of the debate, so it seems senseless to discuss Atwood's correct observation, which I agree with, about "men fear women laughter valid.". Long deliberative observational analysis leaves me thinking that it's the only ascertainable "threat" from the archetypal woman gender that can be seen. I know one guy's observation is antecdotal, not definitive evidence, but I'm a big-picture thinker. I say laugh it up ladies, my feelings don't get hurt that easy. If bad guys could accept womens' laughs and modify their ideas/behavior as a result, the world would be a better place. The "laugh-ee" should take it as a gentle reproof from their betters, not like it's a gang of gossipy mean little old ladies from the village sewing circle standing around dRump in stocks, pointing at his small junk and raining down jeers. But I'm sorry for being totally sexist and insulting in my previous post to you, anyway, if that's how you saw it.

(This is overlong, aki, but here's a small diversionary antecdotal story. It has the added benefit of being all true. A young lady that I knew hit 5 different businesses in an armed robbery spree in our neighborhood. (Drug problems) We were never close, she was ~ 6 years younger than me, but she grew up in the house I lived in from birth - 6 y.o., and I played football and stickball on the street with her older brother, so I always knew her as a little pee wee toddler with Polish white blond hair. She was big-boned as an adult, but had to have been armed to hit all those places spread out over a half mile, so fast. I heard about it, saw some media coverage, and was picking up some food at a pizza joint about 10 days later, and she came in the shop door. (She hadn't robbed that joint, bypassed it in her earlier spree.)

For a split second, fear crossed my mind. But it only entailed me looking at her face, her hands and orientation of her arms, and gauging the counter in "jumping over clearances" terms.

It wasn't a stick up. No trouble, I got the food and left, didn't stay to shoot the breeze with her, we've never really talked with each other. It didn't cause me a long term deeply rooted traumatic fear of the opposite gender. I did have occasion to mention it to several different community members later -- "Tammy blankblank is out", imaginary me diving over the pizza counter. She had a very good lawyer I guess, & her aunt is a repug committeewoman in district 1 of our ward. The DA is a Dem, it's a Dem stronghold city and county, but he seemed to be more interested in anti-ACORN activities than community security, a real political animal, I never vote for the wretch. Whatever, after the fact, I'm not huddled in fear like we live in a Deathwish style city, I don't go around armed, don't alter my travels or shopping in the community. That antecdote just says there was this one time, some woman who I think I could have taken in a brawl, caused me a couple of moments of uncertainty and fear, and there are no overarching conclusions to draw from that one incident. Some women can be dangerous, the cute little blond toddler could turn into a big boned druggie biker stick up woman, but there's no archetype there.)

The correct response to the question about the orange drumpfenfuhrer's assault is "He's going to kill me, he's killing me, now. I'm going to die." Everybody with even a tiny little bit on the ball knows exactly what Ivana was thinking.

Nobody laughs at the drumpfenfuhrer. I think that's what he had his mouthpiece Omarosa say on Frontline, anyhow. He's a clown, but he's more like one of those woods clowns that are so vogue these days. More of a slashing hobo than a singing one.

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Response to Akicita (Reply #50)

Sat Oct 1, 2016, 04:52 PM

55. "I know what she went through"

...

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #49)

Sat Oct 1, 2016, 07:58 PM

57. Sandra Fluke, not Sandra Bland. Bland died for failing to show sufficient submission

and respect to a man asserting his right to dominate her.

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #57)

Sun Oct 2, 2016, 06:43 AM

58. Thank you, tblue. Corrected.

Last edited Sun Oct 2, 2016, 08:34 AM - Edit history (1)

Just another sign that shows I'm slipping.

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #58)

Sun Oct 2, 2016, 12:23 PM

62. Or a sign that shows there are so many outrages and abuses that it gets hard to

keep them all separated in our minds.

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #62)

Mon Oct 3, 2016, 07:39 AM

63. When Alton Sterling and Philando Castile got murdered, I had to write

their names down, because it was getting hard to keep track mentally of all the increasing number of names of all the victims.

For a couple of days, I mistakenly thought that there was another little kid with the initials "T.R.", that Cleveland cops had killed. It was actually Tyre King, killed in Columbus. I had to write down Keith L Scott and Terence Crutcher, because the murder incidents are piling up some more and I thought I'd wind up getting Walt Scott from North Charleston South Carolina confused with Keith Scott from North Carolina. It's not callousness, but feeling overwhelmed with futile outrage.

I've gone to quite a few protests and events in my area over the years, for Jonny Gammage, Stoney Bey, Jordan Miles (didn't get shot, still alive), Duane Dixon, Jerry Jackson. Deron Grimmett didn't get a protest, because he had a criminal record and was actively fleeing police, but his shooting was a cold blooded murder execution and endangered the public. I went to school with some of the Bey and Grimmett/Nye family, and Gammage lived in my neighborhood.

The crew of about 12 people I work with closely has 10 good guys, 2 rightwing rural gunnies. But one day last year I was having lunch with another crew, a couple of my trade and some other trades' members. They were kicking around the old "law and order" thing and "the guy was stupid, got what he deserved". I wasn't paying attention initially, so I asked "Is that the one where they shot the little kid, the one where they broke the guy's spine and killed him, the one where they killed the guy for loose cig sales, or the one that caused the riots, or the one down in FL? There's too many to keep track of." Nobody answered the question, but it wasn't really a question. It was just a long winded "please shut up". There were 2 bad race archetype oriented guys there, 3 uncommitted going along, but just declaring my ignorance that way, forcibly, broke that little law and order minute up. No one got mad, no one tried to argue. Someone turned the topic to sports.

These increased killings aren't happening in spite of us electing a Black President, they're because of it. If that wasn't the case, after the first big high-profile bad publicity screw up murder, every squad room across the country would have had sergeants telling everyone in no uncertain terms to not cause any huge p.r. problems for the department, to follow procedures exactly and properly, to be on their toes and mind their p's and q's. The killers are crooked and mobbed up, from L. E. outfits that are getting bribed by the real bad guys. Or they're from those klan and supremacist infiltrated L.E. outfits.

So the repugs are running a guy with EXTENSIVE mob ties and nazi ties, who campaigns on how our cities are lawless burning hellish war zones. And then, mirabile dictu, a steadily-increasing-in-tempo drumbeat of shootings and outraged community responses occur, and orange hitler is "right". Exactly the same as with "terror attacks".

This is not too hard to figure out.

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #42)

Sat Oct 1, 2016, 04:49 PM

54. Excellent post.

Thank you for bringing some light to a heated thread.

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Response to annabanana (Reply #54)

Mon Oct 3, 2016, 07:42 AM

64. Thanks, & you're welcome, anna. nt.

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #42)

Sun Oct 2, 2016, 06:49 AM

59. +1000

This! Best answer. Well done.

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Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #59)

Mon Oct 3, 2016, 07:42 AM

65. Thanks, nt.

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Response to Akicita (Reply #11)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 04:19 PM

17. A young lady I was steady with when we were 16-21 ended up marrying a Middle Eastern man.

He sent her to the emergency room on a regular basis. This was over 40 years ago. Here's the really sad part, as if that wasn't bad enough... she'd drive to a hospital 2 hours away lest her husband's reputation suffer. He was an M.D., and she didn't want to out him as an abuser in a city where he'd be well-known.

She was a nice girl... so very sad that she was more concerned with his reputation than she was with her own safety. I offered to kick his ass, since in those days there weren't many resources for abused women, but she declined that, too.

Somehow she made it through. We still keep in touch. The beatings stopped after 10 years of marriage.

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Response to Francis Booth (Reply #17)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 04:45 PM

22. I have a similar story, though as probability would indicate, the husband was a white, Christian mal

I have a similar story, though as probability would indicate, the husband was a white, Christian male.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #22)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 07:26 PM

25. Bastards come in all flavors, I guess.

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Response to Akicita (Reply #11)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 04:44 PM

21. I too pretend to know what the men and women I know are thinking as well.

I too pretend to know what the men and women I know are thinking as well.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #21)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 07:11 PM

24. You and the op apparently

 

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Response to Egnever (Reply #24)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 10:06 PM

32. The OP is not Margaret Atwood. The OP quoted Margaret Atwood.

But your reply was precious! Good job!

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #21)

Fri Sep 30, 2016, 10:28 AM

48. Are you directing that comment at me or the person who pretends to know that women fear being killed

by a man and men fear being laughed at by a woman?

If that statement is true(it's not) then men must be pretty stupid. You would think that since a man is three times more likely than a woman to be killed by a man that men would fear being killed by a man much more than women would.

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Response to Akicita (Reply #48)

Sun Oct 2, 2016, 07:02 AM

61. It is not the fears that are logical or expressed.

It is the fears that are deep in our psyches that the OP is talking about.

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 03:50 PM

13. "Perhaps both should stop living in fear."

 

The only ending to that quote worth having.

If only we lived in a sane world where there wasn't a literal, constant drumbeat to destroy this nation from what is ostensibly 'our parties' (lol).

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Response to Shandris (Reply #13)

Thu Sep 29, 2016, 01:05 PM

41. For women, that's not really a safe approach to life

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 04:03 PM

14. As a woman, I see the truth in this quote.

Men will not.

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Response to mountain grammy (Reply #14)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 04:30 PM

19. +1

It really explains so much

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Response to mountain grammy (Reply #14)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 07:38 PM

26. I am a man and I get it 100%.

I do understand that many if not most men will not truly get it.

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Response to JanMichael (Reply #26)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 10:21 PM

33. so does my husband

that's why he's my husband.

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Response to mountain grammy (Reply #14)

Thu Sep 29, 2016, 08:56 PM

45. So do I. To be honest, men terrify me. I don't want to think this way,

but unfortunately I do. I know I am on the far side of paranoid, but nothing terrifies me more than the threat of rape.

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 04:08 PM

15. After hearing this, a man tried to

tell me that it sort of proves that women have more power over men. I understand his point, but, WTF?

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 05:29 PM

23. correct

yet even people on DU will deny that sexism is far more pervasive than racism

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Response to Skittles (Reply #23)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 09:19 PM

28. witness some of the replies in this thread alone.

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 09:20 PM

29. . . .

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 28, 2016, 09:44 PM

30. More than anything,

men fear being perceived as feminine, which is why it makes such an effective and widely used insult.

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Response to ronnie624 (Reply #30)

Thu Sep 29, 2016, 02:34 PM

43. I was always the anti-male, which earned me quite a bit of bullying

when I was a kid in grade school.

I've always disliked sports and enjoyed activities that are considered more "feminine" and it's true that other men/boys will use this as a hammer against your psyche.

Our culture teaches our little boys that they have to be stronger, faster, and tougher than everyone else. We're not really good at letting children be who they want to be.

Until this male-dominated culture changes, we're always going to have men who solve their problems with their fists, and women (and other men) who fear them.

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Response to Francis Booth (Reply #43)

Sun Oct 2, 2016, 07:00 AM

60. Sorry to hear that. I don't think this hyper-masculine culture is good for

anyone, male or female. It's unfortunate that men and boys can't be who they are without the threat of being teased or bullied.

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Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #60)

Mon Oct 3, 2016, 02:40 PM

66. Thanks - funnily enough, my son turned out exactly as I was; shy,

and not much of a joiner-in.

We both had a tough time in grades 7 and 8, when kids seem to be the meanest. But we both made friends with kindred spirits, and by grade 10 the bullying seems to ease up. By high school graduation, everyone was pretty cool.

It is a puzzle why boys (and I imagine quite a few girls) are so hostile to those who are even a little bit different. I imagine there's still some tribal old brain wiring that was useful when humans existed in small groups.

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Thu Sep 29, 2016, 11:53 AM

34. nearly every woman will tell you that they dont like to go out alone at night.

it is drilled into us from the time we start to sprout boobs.
it is rubbed in when we walk down the street w those little sprouts and old men slow down to ogle us, and cat call.
it is rubbed in for the rest of our lives w cat calling and subtle body language.

in the back of nearly every woman's mind is the fear or rape and worse.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #34)

Thu Sep 29, 2016, 12:00 PM

35. and yet, we have people on this thread alone denying the reality of women's existence.

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Response to niyad (Reply #35)

Thu Sep 29, 2016, 12:08 PM

36. i know.

i am feeling a bit pukey right now.
time to update the old ignore list.

some days i cant believe this place, but other days i remind myself that someone here has a different take on everything. and sometimes it helps to see how the other side thinks.

then again, sometimes it makes me want to puke to see what the other side thinks.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #36)

Thu Sep 29, 2016, 12:17 PM

37. I do understand!!

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Response to mopinko (Reply #36)

Thu Sep 29, 2016, 12:20 PM

38. "fight back"--holly near

(if you go to the link, you can hear the song if you are not familiar with it)

Holly Near - Fight Back Lyrics



By day I live in terror
By night I live in fright
For as long as I can remember
A lady don't go out alone at night, no no
A lady don't go out alone at night

But I don't accept the verdict
It's a wrong one anyway
'Cause nowadays a woman
Can't even go out in the middle of the day, safely
Can't go out in the middle of the day

And so we've got to fight back
In large numbers
Fight back, I can't make it alone
Fight back, in large numbers
Together we can make a safe home
Together we can make a safe home

Women all around the world
Every color, religion and age
One thing we've got in common
We can all be battered and raped
We can all be battered and raped

Some have an easy answer
They buy a lock and they live in a cage
But my fear is turning to anger
And my anger's turning to rage
And I won't live my life in a cage, no!

By day I live in terror
By night I live in fright
For as long as I can remember

A lady don't go out at night
fight back

Read more at http://www.songlyrics.com/holly-near/fight-back-lyrics/#iAIGspdcWESLkhLi.99

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Response to niyad (Reply #38)

Thu Sep 29, 2016, 12:23 PM

39. we need that post like button.

thanks.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #39)

Thu Sep 29, 2016, 12:24 PM

40. you are most welcome

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Response to niyad (Reply #35)

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