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The Romneys know what it means to struggle (Original Post) proud2BlibKansan Jun 2012 OP
Another terrible burden she has - which Caddilac to drive today. Swede Jun 2012 #1
Only one horsie? Poor Annie! malthaussen Jun 2012 #2
Ballet Horse thelordofhell Jun 2012 #5
Overpampered equine. malthaussen Jun 2012 #6
actually, she has more than one horse magical thyme Jun 2012 #13
Lots of questions about that if you don't mind... PotatoChip Jun 2012 #17
both western and english styles are offshoots of dressage magical thyme Jun 2012 #20
Wow, magical thyme, this is great info! PotatoChip Jun 2012 #25
I stopped watching and following a few years back magical thyme Jun 2012 #28
Further explanation malthaussen Jun 2012 #22
Thanks malthaussen! PotatoChip Jun 2012 #26
"western pleasure" would be their main style competition magical thyme Jun 2012 #27
The influx of money into "amateur" competition malthaussen Jun 2012 #29
Can I get a medical deduction for trying to saddle our dressage cats? Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2012 #3
LOL! Cooley Hurd Jun 2012 #7
Only if you don't work for the Catholic Church proud2BlibKansan Jun 2012 #9
Yes, but only if you put it on Youtube. Ruby the Liberal Jun 2012 #19
why would this be a tax deduction? mysuzuki2 Jun 2012 #4
Why are you attacking mothers? Marr Jun 2012 #8
kick magnifisense Jun 2012 #10
She incorporated her horse aint_no_life_nowhere Jun 2012 #11
if horses are corporations, and corporations are people Retrograde Jun 2012 #15
And if horses are corporations and corporations are people aint_no_life_nowhere Jun 2012 #18
There have been many extremely rich Presidents goclark Jun 2012 #12
The Romneys are the elitists the republicans claim to despise. Initech Jun 2012 #14
Yep. Romney is the real life version of the GOP 04 Strawman John Kerry. emulatorloo Jun 2012 #16
Now wait just a minute here . . . Brigid Jun 2012 #21
A $77,000 deduction Mz Pip Jun 2012 #23
did having that professional portrait done count as a tax deduction? renate Jun 2012 #24

malthaussen

(17,175 posts)
2. Only one horsie? Poor Annie!
Sun Jun 17, 2012, 01:09 PM
Jun 2012

I think the specification "dressage" should be removed. The people who should be most offended probably don't know what it means.

-- Mal

malthaussen

(17,175 posts)
6. Overpampered equine.
Sun Jun 17, 2012, 01:19 PM
Jun 2012

I have a friend who works around the dressage business. He says the best stud in the farm gets $2500 a throw.

Damn, I wish I could make that.

-- Mal

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
13. actually, she has more than one horse
Sun Jun 17, 2012, 03:49 PM
Jun 2012

But the incorporated horse, Rafalca, is the only one going to the Olympics.

My guess is they are going to really regret the visibility they will now have there. The US generally does not do all that well in international dressage. We have an occasional breakout star who leads the team to a bronze, but most of our "stars" end up low down in the rankings. Often times last or second to last.

I read that they came in 3rd in the qualifier (team of 5 -- 4 regulars and an alternate) and that for Ebeling, it was "the ride of a lifetime." If his best ride ever was 3rd in the qualifiers, that suggests he'll be one of the stragglers near the bottom when he's up against his countrymen and the Dutch team. Germany usually gets all the gold and the Dutch the silver, except on the rare occasion when they swap.

PotatoChip

(3,186 posts)
17. Lots of questions about that if you don't mind...
Sun Jun 17, 2012, 04:57 PM
Jun 2012

*(with the caveat that I know absolutely nothing about dressage horses, and very little about horses in general)

-But what makes one of these horses Olympic Gold material? Iow, I guess what I am asking is, what is it that makes the Dutch and German horses better? Is it lineage, bearing, ability, the best trainer, the best 'show' horse and/or person? Any/all or a combination of the above?

Ok, at this point, I suppose I should google, (sorry).... But, is it very subjective, or do the horses have to perform ability-type things, that they either 'nail' or don't, in order to win?

Can you briefly explain dressage and how it differs from western or english styles? My niece has won lots of local-level awards for her 'english style' riding, while another relative received similar level awards in 'western' style many years ago. The former jumps over barriers, while the latter seems to run around them.

(For any horse people out there... Sorry, not making fun of the whole thing at all. I've just had limited exposure to both, especially the western stuff)

As far as dressage, I'm totally in the dark. What makes it an Olympic sport, and why can't the Rmoney's buy a win?

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
20. both western and english styles are offshoots of dressage
Sun Jun 17, 2012, 07:07 PM
Jun 2012

Classical dressage is the foundation of all riding in the western world. Historically, it started as training for war horses. All the movements are based on the natural movements of horses in the wild, and you can see foals at play perform them all. During non-war periods, in Austria at the Spanish Riding School of Vienna (which is, along with the Cadre Noir in France, is kind of the home base for classical dressage), the military put on "ballets" for the Emperor essentially as a way to demonstrate the cavalry and ensure funding during peace time. If you've seen the Spanish Riding School perform (they periodically tour major US cities), then you have seen the best of the classical riding and training. They have operated continuously for over 500 years, both as a breeding and training stable. They keep the best of their foals, they sell the second best to the state and the rest on the open market. So the lipizzaners you see in the circus are their rejects.

Within the overall arch of dressage, there are different subsystems, or schools that tend to be geared toward their national breeds: the French school (based on the teachings of de la Gueriniere, and the selle francais or 'frenchblood' horses), the Iberian school (Spanish and Portuguese riding the 2 Iberian breeds, the andalusian and the lusitano, also based on de la Gueriniere), the dutch school and dutch breeds, the german school geared toward their various warmbloods (the trakehner, the oldenburg, the hanoverian, and several other regional registries, they are not actual breeds but they breed for specific characteristics), etc. In the US, it was the thoroughbred and halfbred used in the cavalry.

Olympic equine competition originally was represented by the military, including the US cavalry, and included 3 disciplines: dressage, combined training, and open jumping. As the cavalry was replaced by tanks and such, it fell to civilians to maintain. The Germans took the lead here, with their well established training and warmblood breeding programs that were hundreds of years old and part of their national culture. They also took the lead in establishing competition and scoring guidelines that, I believe, favored their horse's particular qualities over, say the Iberian horses, the lipizzaners (which are, btw, part Iberian in heritage), etc. The dutch have come on very strong in recent decades as well, using many german horses in their breeding program.

The romney's can't buy the win because the best German talent -- equine and human -- stays in Germany. It's that simple. Early on, Americans started trying to buy better trained horses by buying Germany's culls, and fared poorly. As a result, we have lagged. It's one of those things you cannot buy: it is a lifetime of learning, and if you don't have a correct foundation you have a big disadvantage right out of the starting gate. Too many of our trainers have piss-poor foundations. Too many people here try to take short cuts.

Think about it. Anne Romney, with all her money and all her time devoted to it, has taken 10 years to learn to sit on a horse correctly and ride a decent score at the top levels. 10 years just to learn to ride a *fully trained horse* with a trainer standing there guiding her every step of the way, and "fixing" problems that she inadvertently creates. I

The Germans, by contrast, have generational knowledge passed down. Their riders train their own horses from the get-go, and are riding from birth, guided by parents who also rode from birth, riding horses that have been selectively bred for a few hundred years.

There are no short cuts. That is what makes the training an art form as much as (or more than) a sport. It is more than a lifetime of learning, to be honest. That is what makes it so fascinating. Every horse is different, presents different qualities and issues to overcome. So every different horse is a new journey.

PotatoChip

(3,186 posts)
25. Wow, magical thyme, this is great info!
Mon Jun 18, 2012, 10:21 AM
Jun 2012

You've answered my bottom line question beautifully. With some very interesting historical background to boot, which I truly appreciate.

Now that I have a bit more understanding of the sport, (even checked out a YouTube video of it) I actually look forward to watching in the next Olympics. But do we have horse(s) and rider(s) other then Rafalca and Eberling to root for that may have a smidgen of a chance? Not that I have anything against poor Rafalca- (it's not his fault that he has the misfortune of being spoiled Ann Romney's horse)- It's just that I tend to like "the underdog" in sporting events, and it sounds to me, based on what you've said that the odds are against us Americans.

I can see why the whole thing irritates you though. One of the reasons I asked you about dressage is because I had read somewhere else on DU about how you were more or less priced-out of it by wealthy people suddenly taking an interest dressage as a 'hobby'... Even though you had grown up training the horses and working very hard with them; much like how you describe the Germans doing. I can see now how that bond would be very important, since the sport as you describe it involves really knowing, even sort of 'being one' with the animal. If I am understanding correctly.

Iow's horse and rider really need to be 'in sync' with each other, and really the only good way to achieve that would need to be trainer as the horse's 'one and only'. These wealthy people interfering with everything trainers like you have taught them (especially when they have no idea what they are doing) would, I imagine be confusing to the animal, possibly even causing them to pick up bad habits in order to adapt to some untrained and spoiled 'afternoon' rider doing it for show-off purposes, or whatever. The "look at me" types.

If I've gotten all of this right, I'd be pretty PO'd too.

Sorry that I didn't get around to replying to your well written and thought out post. Got too busy last night to get around to acknowledging it properly. Thanks again. Interesting stuff!








 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
28. I stopped watching and following a few years back
Mon Jun 18, 2012, 11:20 AM
Jun 2012

I simply ceased to care, for a number of reasons. Not the least of which is, I have my own little 2 acres and back yard arabian filly that I am bringing along for the pure joy of it. I hope to sit on her for the first time soon; if not this week, then next. We'll probably never even show at the local level, but if we can get out and go trail riding, that will be enough.

I'm sure there are some team members who will have a better chance than others, but I doubt anything has changed much. Germany and the Netherlands will own the top 3 spots, and pretty much own the next 3 or so. Somebody may sneak in to a 4th or 5th, but mostly everybody else comes in someplace below the top 6.

As long as our selection process is so totally political and tilted toward a certain class, we will lag. I would have liked to have seen Kathleen Raine sent the first time she qualified as an alternate, with a horse she trained herself from the ground up, instead of getting bumped so that the 1%er darling (and 5-time loser) Robert Dover could have yet another chance to come in last or 2nd to last on a million dollar fully trained pony purchase by a 1%er just so he could try, try again. Then she would have gotten the needed international experience that is their age-old excuse for breaking their own rules.

On the other hand, to hang onto a ray of hope, I think it was the last Olympics (maybe the one before; I'm losing track of time) that a working class trainer and his horse were on the German Olympic gold team. Forget their names, but his horse was a working mounted police horse, he was in the mounted police, and they trained to upper level dressage in their off duty time

malthaussen

(17,175 posts)
22. Further explanation
Sun Jun 17, 2012, 08:12 PM
Jun 2012

English riding is supposed to be based on cross-country hunting and point-to-point racing. The point is to get around the course as fast as possible.

In dressage, the point is to get around the course and look good doing it.

Oversimplification, granted. As for Western riding, I didn't even know they had style competitions, so you've got me on that one.

-- Mal

PotatoChip

(3,186 posts)
26. Thanks malthaussen!
Mon Jun 18, 2012, 10:27 AM
Jun 2012

You explanation was very helpful too.

And yeah, as far as why these local shows/competitions had different categories for 'English' and 'Western' riding is confusing to me too. I'll have to ask my niece exactly what the differences are supposed to be the next time I see her.

Thanks again!

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
27. "western pleasure" would be their main style competition
Mon Jun 18, 2012, 11:05 AM
Jun 2012

also "western reining" might qualify as style. Top reining horses get fundamental training virtually identical to dressage (or at least they used to, can't speak for the present day). That is, the first year or two is the same, and then they branch off into their specialty. So a canter pirouette in dressage has the same foundation as the spin (rollback? forget what they call it) in reining. Like dressage, in reining competition they demonstrate a sequence of reining movements and are scored on the quality of those movements. It's just that their movements are geared toward working cattle.

A few decades ago, Sydley Payne and her quarter horse, Scarteen, won the national reining horse championships. She got interested in dressage, re-schooled Scarteen to grand prix dressage and nearly qualified for the Olympic team.


English style riding is based on fox hunting, point-to-point, steeplechase and racing. And speed (possibly over obstacles) is the main goal (also staying alive). The Brits do pretty well in combined training (Princess Anne was on their Olympic team). You don't have to "look pretty" but if you don't ride really well, you may not survive. Certainly you will end up eating dirt or worse. But "hunt seat" competition is extremely stylized and about "looking pretty" to the point that if those horses and riders were actually out on a hunt course, they wouldn't last long. Personally, I think it was another matter of money taking over. They currently have stylized it to the point that the riders are taught to practically lie down on the horse's neck over jumps. I suspect they did it because it reduces the need for talent if you balance yourself by leaning on the horse's neck, as opposed to holding your balance back over the horse's center of gravity. Those horses are absolute saints to tolerate all that weight shoved so far forward. It's a miracle they stay on their feet on landing. I expect that's why the jumps are so much smaller than they used 40-50 years ago, and why the classes are pretty much restricted to groomed, level arenas with perfect footing. Ride like that on an actual hunt, and the horse would go down or stop dead in self-preservation.

In dressage competition, the point is to demonstrate the training of the horse and the harmony between horse and rider. Quality, not speed. Similar to western reining competition, but with a different sequence of movements that had a different ultimate purpose.

malthaussen

(17,175 posts)
29. The influx of money into "amateur" competition
Mon Jun 18, 2012, 01:55 PM
Jun 2012

... has really spoiled all "amateur" competition for me. Sounds as if dressage had the misfortune to be "discovered" by the moneyed crowd -- and there went the neighborhood.

-- Mal

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
8. Why are you attacking mothers?
Sun Jun 17, 2012, 01:23 PM
Jun 2012

You have to almost laugh at how fast the Democratic Party establishment ran away from that whole "Anne Romney never worked a day in her life" thing. She hasn't. It's obvious, and factually true. The woman does not know what it means to hold a job.

But really, their timidity on that issue didn't surprise me much at all. The last things the party establishment wants to talk about are class divisions and wealth disparity.

Retrograde

(10,130 posts)
15. if horses are corporations, and corporations are people
Sun Jun 17, 2012, 04:01 PM
Jun 2012

where will Ann's horses vote?

Being wealthy is not in itself bad. It's the tone-deaf sense of entitlement that gets me, as well as the taking no risks oneself but bragging on other people's work, first Mitt's time at Bain, now Ann's trying to buy an Olympic medal.

aint_no_life_nowhere

(21,925 posts)
18. And if horses are corporations and corporations are people
Sun Jun 17, 2012, 05:26 PM
Jun 2012

Last edited Sun Jun 17, 2012, 07:13 PM - Edit history (1)

horses must be people, too. If through some great misfortune Romney becomes President, maybe he will appoint Rafalca to a cabinet post, in a kind of Emperor Caligula sense of decadent entitlement.

goclark

(30,404 posts)
12. There have been many extremely rich Presidents
Sun Jun 17, 2012, 03:34 PM
Jun 2012

and Nominees.

No one ever seemed to care because they handled their wealth gracefully.

This piece of trash is way off the mark - he is the worse candidate that I can remember and I remember GW

Brigid

(17,621 posts)
21. Now wait just a minute here . . .
Sun Jun 17, 2012, 07:33 PM
Jun 2012

Am I understanding this correctly? The Romneys get a tax deduction for a freaking ballet horse?!

renate

(13,776 posts)
24. did having that professional portrait done count as a tax deduction?
Sun Jun 17, 2012, 08:28 PM
Jun 2012

It's a lovely picture (I do mean that) and it obviously wasn't taken with an iPhone after the end of a long sweaty practice session. Now, I know that lots of people have professional pictures taken of their pets and I think that's sweet, but having a professional picture of your dressage mount, while also sweet, is a little more rarified.

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