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Mon Oct 24, 2016, 08:48 PM

I had tough talk with my mother today.

She was telling me, about the sermon our priest had at mass yesterday. To cut to the chase, he more or less said "if you vote for Hillary, you are committing a mortal sin and that person would never be able to receive communion again". He went on to say that "since Hillary was for abortion is a sin also". Now, since I am a vowed Catholic, I feel that our priest is wrong for trying influence his parishioners and how to vote. I understand there a many sticky issues here, although for a clergy member should never instruct someone how to vote and never use the churches' beliefs against the parishioner's vote. I believe abortion is morally wrong, but it is not my place to tell a woman what is morally right or wrong. I made my choice and so did my mother, we early voted for Hillary. Since yesterday, my mother has struggled with her choice. I told her that I thought the priest was wrong for saying what he did and that her vote was not a sin. She will be 80 years old in little over a month and I fear that she will be scared from here on. I also struggle with what is morally right or wrong in what I do, but what I feel my final decision is what is in my heart and I believe God knows what I do right or wrong, in which I will have to answer to Him.

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Reply I had tough talk with my mother today. (Original post)
imanamerican63 Oct 2016 OP
Emilybemily Oct 2016 #1
librechik Oct 2016 #44
Upin Oct 2016 #54
True_Blue Oct 2016 #60
Historic NY Oct 2016 #2
HughBeaumont Oct 2016 #53
marybourg Oct 2016 #3
dhol82 Oct 2016 #4
milestogo Oct 2016 #5
katmondoo Oct 2016 #6
okaawhatever Oct 2016 #38
Kablooie Oct 2016 #7
elleng Oct 2016 #8
safeinOhio Oct 2016 #9
lindysalsagal Oct 2016 #10
stopbush Oct 2016 #11
Ilsa Oct 2016 #12
d_r Oct 2016 #13
treestar Oct 2016 #14
salin Oct 2016 #15
cally Oct 2016 #16
trotsky Oct 2016 #43
Control-Z Oct 2016 #18
Dorian Gray Oct 2016 #19
prarie deem Oct 2016 #20
spartan61 Oct 2016 #22
gratuitous Oct 2016 #23
NanceGreggs Oct 2016 #24
lovemydog Oct 2016 #55
joeybee12 Oct 2016 #25
melman Oct 2016 #34
joeybee12 Oct 2016 #42
shrike Oct 2016 #66
rbrnmw Oct 2016 #46
joeybee12 Oct 2016 #47
rbrnmw Oct 2016 #49
joeybee12 Oct 2016 #50
shrike Oct 2016 #65
Proud Public Servant Oct 2016 #26
PoindexterOglethorpe Oct 2016 #27
imanamerican63 Oct 2016 #28
pansypoo53219 Oct 2016 #29
dflprincess Oct 2016 #30
3catwoman3 Oct 2016 #33
okaawhatever Oct 2016 #39
melman Oct 2016 #35
Aristus Oct 2016 #37
kentuck Oct 2016 #40
okaawhatever Oct 2016 #41
roody Oct 2016 #45
snooper2 Oct 2016 #48
bulloney Oct 2016 #51
benld74 Oct 2016 #56
mnhtnbb Oct 2016 #57
deaniac21 Oct 2016 #58
imanamerican63 Oct 2016 #59
deaniac21 Oct 2016 #61
imanamerican63 Oct 2016 #62
lumberjack_jeff Oct 2016 #63
shrike Oct 2016 #64
LWolf Oct 2016 #67

Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 08:50 PM

1. That church should be reported for violating Revenue Ruling 2007-41

https://www.irs.gov/uac/charities-churches-and-politics

That priest isn't just morally wrong. He's breaking the law.

"The ban on political campaign activity by charities and churches was created by Congress more than a half century ago. The Internal Revenue Service administers the tax laws written by Congress and has enforcement authority over tax-exempt organizations. Here is some background information on the political campaign activity ban and the latest IRS enforcement statistics regarding its administration of this congressional ban.

In 1954, Congress approved an amendment by Sen. Lyndon Johnson to prohibit 501(c)(3) organizations, which includes charities and churches, from engaging in any political campaign activity. To the extent Congress has revisited the ban over the years, it has in fact strengthened the ban. The most recent change came in 1987 when Congress amended the language to clarify that the prohibition also applies to statements opposing candidates.

Currently, the law prohibits political campaign activity by charities and churches by defining a 501(c)(3) organization as one "which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office."

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Response to Emilybemily (Reply #1)

Tue Oct 25, 2016, 09:42 AM

44. This. Please!

It's high time this priest paid the price for his lawbreaking and immorality!

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Response to Emilybemily (Reply #1)

Tue Oct 25, 2016, 01:50 PM

54. No enforcement of this law is actively taking place...

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Response to Emilybemily (Reply #1)

Wed Oct 26, 2016, 01:46 PM

60. They should lose their tax exempt status.n/t

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 08:51 PM

2. She's delusional, and the priest is conning the congregation.

Remind her Trump wanted Maples to get an abortion............

http://occupydemocrats.com/2016/04/01/bombshell-trump-admits-urged-mistress-abortion-unearthed-audio/

http://rackjite.com/abortion-shocker-trump-admits-forcing-mistress-marla-maples-to-abort-child/

Remind her also he has a criminal prosecution for child rape pending.

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Response to Historic NY (Reply #2)

Tue Oct 25, 2016, 01:35 PM

53. That probably explains the somewhat cool relationship between Orange Goblin and Tiffany . . .

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 08:52 PM

3. This illegal act should be reported to the IRS

on their website for reporting violations by religious organizations. It can be reported anonymously.

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f13909.pdf

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 08:52 PM

4. Would she be assuaged if she went to confession?

If she is afraid of her priest can she go do confession in another Parrish?

Keep telling her she did the right thing. Jesus is all loving.

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 08:53 PM

5. Fear based religion and fear based politics go hand in hand.

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 08:54 PM

6. I am a Catholic 87 years old

and I voted for Hillary. I know the position of the Catholic church on abortion but I have always felt they are wrong. It plays into the male feeling of controlling women, they just word it to make you feel guilty. You can be a Catholic and still have your own feelings on certain things. The church takes this issue to the extreme. I know God and the Virgin Mary still love me as I love them.

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Response to katmondoo (Reply #6)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 11:47 PM

38. +1,000 Glad to have someone with your life experience here at DU. I hope I'm participating in

political websites when I'm your age.

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 08:54 PM

7. There are plenty of Catholic priests burning in hell this very minute.

You can't let them make decisions for you or you'll be joining them someday.

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 08:55 PM

8. I'm very sorry to hear this.

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 08:58 PM

9. Mom, if you don't sin

Jesus died for nothing.

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 08:58 PM

10. Choice is not a religious issue. No where in the bible.

It's a social wedge issue meant to do 2 things:

Control women
Keep them in the pews

Driving abortion undergound won't stop it: It will just have many dead young women. Rich women could always go to canada for a nice, safe abortion.

It's a class/political issue, not religious.

If there were a biblical passage it would be all over every church, billboards all over the world, and probably tattooed onto many people's faces. It's not.

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 09:00 PM

11. The RCC was accepting of abortion up to about 150 years ago, when they saw

the value of using it as a political bludgeon.

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 09:02 PM

12. Trump lies when he says he's

"Prolife". If Melania (or mistresses, like Maples) wanted or needed an abortion, he wouldn't hesitate to get her one. Trump is playing games, and your mother needs to stop letting priests run her conscience. She's a big girl and she needs to figure this out for herself using thoughtful reasoning.

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 09:03 PM

13. tell your mom

that abortion rates are lower during democratic presidencies than during gop ones, because democratic economic policies benefit working class people more, and people are more likely to choose an abortion when they are in bad financial situations, as they are in when republicans are in office, and that democratic policies provide better access to health care and support for the children who are born, so if she wants to be "pro life" vote for the democrat.

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 09:06 PM

14. that does not even seem to be sound doctrine

where does it say that in the Bible?

There's no connection. Catholicism one would think involves more issues that just abortion.

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 09:07 PM

15. Read this snopes response... per Pope Francis and voting for Clinton.

perhaps it will give your mother some perspective.

http://www.snopes.com/pope-forbids-catholics-from-voting-for-hillary-clinton/

I hope it helps. I lost my 87 yr old mother last November. She was at peace/ may your Mother find her peace. Pope Francis is much more inclusive, and much less "hell and brimstone" than some other Catholic leaders.

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 09:08 PM

16. Umm, the Pope has stated that he does not agree with this

I seem to remember that he has softened this type of statement. He said something about not supporting the poor is a bigger problem. I would look it up if I were you. I am not Catholic and do not remember exactly.

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Response to cally (Reply #16)

Tue Oct 25, 2016, 09:37 AM

43. Just words.

He hasn't changed anything. According to the RCC, abortion is still a worse sin than just about anything else.

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 09:15 PM

18. I feel so badly for your mom.

I'm Aseist but I can imagine that her church means the world to her. If I were Catholic I would send her a personal note of encouragement. Other women and men from the church who are voting for Hillary would be ideal to share their thoughts. And like someone mentioned up thead, perhaps confession at another location might help. I don't really know how that works but it's just horrible that your mom would have to feel like she sinned especially since she voted before she heard that awful sermon. Seems that alone should absolve her.

Remind her that democratic VP nominee Kaine is also Catholic and give your mom a hug from me.

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 09:22 PM

19. Our priest

also a catholic, thinks Trump is a moron.

(But he doesn't talk about it in church. We socialize outside of church and are friends.)

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 09:26 PM

20. I am sorry this priest did this

to your mother.

But maybe if she thought about it this way. Hillary is pro choice not pro abortion and that is NOT the same thing. But here is what I truly believe is the salient issue that is so often missed. If a woman cedes the right to control her body to the state, when political mores change, then the state could mandate as well as prohibit abortion. And there were would be no recourse because the basic right of a human being to control their own body had been surrendered.

And if she cannot buy the idea that there can be a 180 degree change in public moral views, tell her to ask someone who was anti gay marriage if things can change in a very short period of time.

The MOST basic right of any human being is the right to control their own person. There is nothing more basic or more important than that.

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 09:29 PM

22. My husband and I left our church

in 2012 because of this very same thing. When the priest gave his homily, he was telling people who they should vote for (and it wasn't Obama.) On the way home from church, I read the bulletin and there it was again. How to vote and who to vote for. I was so angry when I came home that I wrote the priest a letter telling him exactly why we were leaving this church as members. I also told him that if he wanted to preach politics from the pulpit, he should give up his tax exempt status.

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 09:35 PM

23. So, the priest says vote for the thrice-married serial adulterer?

Strange morality.

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 09:48 PM

24. I was raised strict Catholic ...

... and despite having abandoned that religion decades ago, I can understand the dilemma for people like your mom.

Yes, the priest was wrong for insinuating religion into politics - but that doesn't help your mom's struggle with her choice.

I would remind her that all things considered, Democrats act more in keeping with the words of Jesus. They are the party that fights for things like food stamps (feed the hungry), homeless shelters (shelter the homeless), affordable healthcare (care for the sick and dying), and other social programs that help "the poorest among us". The Republicans, on the other hand, fight against these things, while demonizing those who need assistance as "moochers" trying to get something they don't deserve.

While a woman's right to choose can be a BIG issue for Catholics, it is not the only issue one should consider when voting. One needs to take into account ALL of the things one party stands for and, in turn, what the candidate for each party stands for.

Upholding the right to choose is not an invitation to seek an abortion, nor is it meant to induce any woman to do so. It is the right to make that choice that is important here - a right that belongs to ALL women, not just Catholics, or those of any particular faith.

If you believe in God, you know that HE knows what is in your heart when you cast your ballot. IMHO, it is morally wrong to deny basic rights to those whose religious faith, or lack thereof, leads them to base their decisions on what they feel is right or wrong in the context of their own faith, or their own sense of morality, rather than on what your own religion dictates.

I truly sympathize with both you and your mother. I understand how this issue can cause a lot of second-guessing as to what one needs to do in order to be true to their religious ideals, while doing what is right by their fellow citizens who may not hold the same ideals.

Just remember that this election is not about individuals; it is about the citizenry as a whole, and what is best for everyone, not just those of a particular faith.






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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #24)

Tue Oct 25, 2016, 01:50 PM

55. What a thoughtful reply.

Much appreciated.

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 09:50 PM

25. Apparently all catholic churches are using this form of

 

politicizing and intimidation

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #25)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 11:04 PM

34. All churches?

 

I seriously doubt that.

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Response to melman (Reply #34)

Tue Oct 25, 2016, 08:53 AM

42. yeah they are...several people have told me of this lecture

 

At their pariahes, complete with vodeos...this is not an isolated incident

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #42)

Fri Oct 28, 2016, 04:06 PM

66. Several churches are not all churches, either

I'm sorry this is happening where you live, but it's not happening everywhere, I assure you.

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #25)

Tue Oct 25, 2016, 11:20 AM

46. I have never heard this in any priest's Homily at any Mass I have been to.

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Response to rbrnmw (Reply #46)

Tue Oct 25, 2016, 12:08 PM

47. I have heard from several friends that they're getting this message

 

The priests are even showing a video.

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #47)

Tue Oct 25, 2016, 12:30 PM

49. I would get up and walk out

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Response to rbrnmw (Reply #49)

Tue Oct 25, 2016, 12:38 PM

50. same here. .nt

 

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #25)

Fri Oct 28, 2016, 04:05 PM

65. Not mine

Unfortunately, what happens at a church often depends on the local bishop. For example, in the next diocese over is a church where gays and their families are not only welcome, but some of them are Eucharistic ministers. In my diocese, the current bishop and his predecessor are very sane men when it comes to politics. The pastor at my church last week brought up what a mess this election is. He then said, "I can't tell you what to do" and moved on. I wouldn't have liked it if he'd told everyone to vote for Hillary, either.

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 09:55 PM

26. And Trump is a twice-divorced adulterer

who constantly bears false witness. Sounds like her priest is the kind of cafeteria Catholic that priests usually denounce.

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 09:56 PM

27. This speaks to the heart of why I am personally so opposed

to religion. Invariably they want you to give up your own independent thinking, and just do and think what they tell you.

Well, I'm a thinking, moral, independent being, and I will make up my own mind about all sorts of issues.

And unfortunately, for some years now, clergy of all sorts of religions have been telling their congregations who to vote for. It's wrong. Period.

Oh, and how is voting for (as someone already said) a thrice married serial adulterer moral?

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 10:16 PM

28. Thank you to all who commented on this.

I will used your suggestions to her see the way thru this. Thank you from the bottom of my heart and I will have you all in my thoughts and prayers. There a lot of good people who are on DU!

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 10:23 PM

29. WOMEN. submit. no other choice i guess.

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 10:34 PM

30. My aunts are 90 and 94

I'd really like to see what would happen to the priest that said something like this to one of them. It wouldn't be pretty. (Mother wouldn't have sat still for it either.)

I was out to visit the 94 year old a week or so ago. She greeted me at the door with her Hillary button on (she was filling out her ballot) so I gave her one of my "OMG GOP WTF" buttons (and yes she knows that it means) and she immediately pinned it on. Though she did say "I suppose I'll have to be careful where I wear that one; maybe not to Mass." But she did wear it out to lunch and I gather she doesn't plan to take her Hillary button off until November 9 (if then) - no matter where she goes.



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Response to dflprincess (Reply #30)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 10:49 PM

33. Your aunt sounds...

...like a hoot!

My 94 year old mom is also voting for Hillary. She was a Republican, but not a crazy one, for a long time. I know she voted for President Obama, but I am not sure how long before that she saw the light. Her 85 yr old brother is not.

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Response to dflprincess (Reply #30)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 11:54 PM

39. She sounds like a wonderful woman nt

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 11:06 PM

35. My parents are very Catholic

 

Mom is 78 and Dad is 82.

I would be willing to bet my mom has never missed Mass on Sunday or on any Holy Day of Obligation. If she did it would only be because she was too sick to go.

Both are strongly against abortion, especially my mom.

But they are also lifelong Democrats. They hate Trump and my mom especially is a big Hillary fan, and even put an I'm with Her magnet on the fridge.

So religion is a big thing, and for older Catholics especially, abortion is too, but they're not everything.

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 11:41 PM

37. I think the priest should explain

how voting for Trump would not be a sin!...

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)


Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Tue Oct 25, 2016, 12:36 AM

41. Interesting position your priest took given the Pope's own words about Trump:



“A person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not of building bridges, is not Christian,” the pontiff said Thursday aboard the papal flight today. “This is not the gospel. As far as what you said about whether I would advise to vote or not to vote, I am not going to get involved in that. I say only that this man is not Christian if he has said things like that. We must see if he said things in that way and I will give him the benefit of the doubt."

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-calls-pope-francis-comments-christianity-disgraceful/story?id=37028087

Trump responded with some ugly words about the Pope. I don't recall the exact words but Trump said them so I'm sure that gives you some idea.

Also Pope Francis has made very clear his concerns for the world right now and they are: climate change, immigration, income inequality and human trafficking. I don't understand how that aligns with the Republican platform.

I hope your mother finds peace with her decision.


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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Tue Oct 25, 2016, 11:07 AM

45. Decolonize your minds, please!!!!!!!!!

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Tue Oct 25, 2016, 12:25 PM

48. It's never too late to research the mythology of religion

 

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Tue Oct 25, 2016, 01:01 PM

51. I don't understand how a society of single, celibate men

can be in a position of authority on marriage, parenthood and sexuality when they have zero experience in those areas by profession

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Tue Oct 25, 2016, 01:51 PM

56. Need the church's name and location. Email them adnaseum

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Tue Oct 25, 2016, 02:39 PM

57. Any churches that engage in electioneering should be reported

because it is against the law for them to do so.

It is very easy to report a violation to Americans United for Separation of Church and State and
they will have their attorneys pursue the matter.

https://www.au.org/

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Tue Oct 25, 2016, 06:33 PM

58. what is a vowed catholic?

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Response to deaniac21 (Reply #58)

Wed Oct 26, 2016, 01:43 PM

59. A "vowed Catholic" is a person that believes in the sacraments of the Church.

That was the wording I was taught as I grew up.

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Response to imanamerican63 (Reply #59)

Fri Oct 28, 2016, 02:23 PM

61. avowed

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Response to deaniac21 (Reply #61)

Fri Oct 28, 2016, 02:27 PM

62. Thanks for the correct wording!

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Fri Oct 28, 2016, 02:36 PM

63. Her opponent believes that...

 

Coveting, Bearing false witness, stealing, adultery, killing, are all just fine - and is happy taking the lord's name in vain on the sabbath.

So the priest can stick his politics disguised as theology straight up his Goddamn ass.

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Fri Oct 28, 2016, 04:00 PM

64. I don't know if you'd be comfortable contacting the diocese.

But your priest definitely should NOT be telling anyone how to vote. Last week at mass our pastor commiserated with us on the election: "I'm as tired of it as you are." But he made a point of telling us, "I can't tell you what to do," and segued to another topic. Our current bishop and his predecessor have done a good job on sitting on the clergy when it comes to politics. We have a few firebrands, but I remember when that silly issue came up over Notre Dame giving Obama an award: all the conservative priests finally shut up. Word came down from on high: don't get involved with this. As for your situation, maybe you're cursed with a conservative bishop. If you are, you have my sympathies.

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Response to imanamerican63 (Original post)

Fri Oct 28, 2016, 05:52 PM

67. My mother is about the same age.

Happily, she doesn't have any religious leaders who try to bully her politically.

We discuss politics. She makes up her own mind. She would never, ever, ever vote for Donald Trump. We both voted last weekend. The only vote she struggled with was our state measure to tax big corporations. The big out-of-state corporations brought in big money and big guns to shoot it down; one of their claims is that it would make senior citizens on a fixed income pay more for everything. That's a big concern for her. I tried to talk her down. I don't know what her final vote was.

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