The ugly, unspoken truth about this election.

[thejoker123]

While much of Donald Trump's support can be squarely pegged on decades of Republican racist rhetoric and xenophobic fear mongering, as well as our furiously partisan electorate, it doesn't entirely explain why the polls are tightening in a race between Hillary Clinton and a man so utterly deplorable that he would be over the top for a Saturday morning cartoon villain.

In my opinion, the silent driver responsible for this being a 3-5 point race instead of 20 point blowout, which few in the media have dared to touch on, is sexism, plain and simple. Some of it overt, some of it in the collective subconscious of the electorate.

As it was/is with President Obama and is now with Hillary, at the end of the day a significant number of Americans consider a white man, no matter how flawed, as superior to either a black man or a woman.

Not surprisingly, our voting electorate is simply mirroring life, where both people of color and women have to perform at significantly higher levels, if not at near perfection, to get the same respect that white men are handed as a birthright.

So while scores of voters are willing to forgive or justify or look the other way on Trump's most disturbing and egregious behaviors and actions, Hillary is ceremoniously crucified for even the smallest mistake or misstep.

In my opinion, this is also why the polls keep swinging so wildly. Why a decent number of people keep coming back to Trump after temporarily being offended by him, especially after any negative story about Hillary, regardless of how comically frivolous that story may be.

They want to want Trump over Hillary. They have begged him to please just shut up for a few weeks so they don't have to deal with their conscience or their spouse or their friends or their children reminding them of just how vile and unfit for office Trump really is.

At the same time, they desperately look for a reason, any reason, to justify in their minds that Hillary is actually worse, thus allowing them to escape the unavoidable, ugly truth about what is really driving them to such an indefendable, illogical, immoral position.

Here is an excellent piece from Salon today that discusses the infuriating double standard being displayed this election. It begins to touch on the sexism piece, but unfortunately doesn't go nearly far enough.

http://www.salon.com/2016/11/01/its-different-for-the-donald-the-old-rules-only-apply-to-hillary-clinton-the-tbt-time-before-trump-candidate/

[smirkymonkey]

1. That's exactly what it is.

K&R. There is no other explanation why it could possibly be this close.

[BlueCaliDem]

2. The eye-opening revelation is, sexism against women isn't limited to men. Women engage in the same

ugly sexism against their own gender at a concerning rate! That's what shocks me the most.

But then again, American tradition is, men are the leaders and women have to look pretty and defer to their leadership. This is a difficult tradition to break.

But we'll see how much we've progressed (or declined) in terms of equality of the sexes on November 9th.

[duffyduff]

32. But, but, but...

Some on this thread actually think it is all about HRC's supposed "negatives" while ignoring Trump's obvious unfitness while at the same time blathering on and on about how "divided" this country is thinking Republicans will vote for Trump because he is GOP.

This despite the fact that vast numbers of GOP party regulars have deserted the party in droves in terms of the presidential race.

[Dorian Gray]

38. I think there is a section of our country

who would never vote for her... or for a democrat. That's what it is. If it were Kim Kardashian running instead of Donald, they'd vote for Kim and justify what makes her great, regardless of how ridiculous that sounds. (Yes, I equate Trump with Kardashian.)

Having said that, there definitely is a number of people who are misogynistic and sexist who would never vote for a woman at all. I'd be curious to see how many Trump supporters would give up their support if it were a woman running against Hillary Clinton, instead. Go third party.

I think it's a decent number, as well.

[grossproffit]

47. Yep, it's been very sobering to say the least.

[Coyotl]

3. Only one week to go. How many more Trump scandals will emerge? Guesses anyone?

[center]



Let's take Texas too!

[apcalc]

4. Absolutely

And we are going to use this election as a beginning. I for one am going to start calling out bullshit loud and clear. No more MS nice guy...

[thejoker123]

6. Truly (eom)

[uponit7771]

17. +1

[Jerry442]

7. Agreed.

There's also that Hillary is seen as Obama's chosen successor. If you could erase the notion from from the minds of likely R voters that Obama is a ****** and Hillary is his *****, she would probably sweep all 50 states.

(Supply your own pejoratives here.)

[Arkansas Granny]

8. It's the same old story. A woman has to do a job twice as good as a man in order

to be considered half as good. Women of Hillary's age have been fighting this battle since grade school.

[thejoker123]

9. I've always known and seen this

As a man who's worked in corporate America for the last 25 years, but man, choosing Trump over her? That's beyond anything I imagined, I'm embarrassed to admit.

[asiliveandbreathe]

51. So true Arkansasgranny - we all have a story - many of us in the corp. world

up close and in your face..

if NOT sexism, (from my own experience when I was in the running for a promotion and was interviewed with high recommendation from my manager) in 1978 interview with male 3rd level one on one, "so tell me Jan, do you intend to have more children?" (true story) (I already had 3 children)- my boss was livid. I don't even remember if I answered him. She told me then (1978) he can't ask that. I have no idea what she did, but, I got the promotion, because I earned it.

I was a maverick, oh, I always demonstrated playing by their rules, I always found a more efficient way of doing things...with a smile of course...

There is always the shadow of authoritarians, masking their sexism in the corp world ...

- one more story, our company was in the throws of heavy competition so headquarters went cross country holding 2 day management seminars - we as first level managers with approx. 20-25 reps on our team had 1 hour a week to meet with our people - I took the 2 day info and condensed it into a 1 hour meeting, gave them my 1 page job aid - ALL my peers came to me and asked me to do the same for their team..we had 10 teams - within 2 weeks our sales goals were met 100% - within 4 weeks we exceeded our sales goals...

this is the rest of the story - at a divisional meeting, where our 2nd level presented our results, then she had me present my 1 page job aid - one of the other 2nd levels asked after my presentation, well, how did you know it would work? - Did you have empirical evidence it would? - Did you test it? - Are you shitting me (I thought) - we didn't have time..we were being bombarded by another competitor..the end of story, what a jerk, my boss said afterwards...he just didn't want to hear our success - but the proof was in the pudding...

Then come to find out, the other company, our competition, was cooking the books, and their CEO went to jail....

Former WorldCom Corp. chief Bernard Ebbers was ordered to report to prison Sept. 26 to begin serving a 25-year sentence for an $11 billion accounting fraud. tada....

[Jason1961]

10. Trump can take the racists, sexists, xenophobes, and other deplorable people voting for him and go

I'd say that 99.99% of Trump supporters fall into one of those categories.

We won't miss the white, low/no income, low/no education, redneck, hillbillies.

[thejoker123]

11. Put WALLMART right out of business. :)

[Jason1961]

12. Hahahahahaha

[thejoker123]

14. What a load of crap

Sure, Hillary isn't a great candidate, FOR LIBERALS. She isn't deeply flawed as a generic election candidate, that's a load of bullshit that the media has convinced you and apparently your friends.

I mean what makes her so "flawed"?

The fact that according to fact checkers she's 2nd only to Obama in the honestly department, better than even Bernie Sanders? That she used private email JUST LIKE A DONZEN REPUBLICANS DID, including her predecessors, only she was MORE transparent than any of them? The fact that she gave paid speeches like freaking anyone and everyone does for income and to keep putting forward their message once out of office?

Give me a fucking break, Hillary is more qualified than most candidates in history, and the only reason you and others see her as so deeply flawed is because you didn't like her from the start and so you've bought into the media's bullshit.

And by the way, in your reply you left out one factor - DONALD TRUMP. The reason the whole world is in shock is because no one can understand how this vile sorry sack of shit is even in this race.

As I explained, most of it is because the right is nuts, but there's a portion of moderates and independents who support trump that no one can explain. These people wouldn't let trump near their wives it daughter, but they will vote for him.

And in my opinion, a decent piece of the reason why is flat out sexism. As I said, be it overtly or subconsciously.

It's the SAME reason Obama didnt beat McCain/Palin by 10-15%, on the heels of the catastrophic bush presidency no less!!!

[Skittles]

25. thank you

I am sick of hearing repuke propaganda on DU

ENOUGH ALREADY

[Pacifist Patriot]

36. +1

[paulkienitz]

15. There are several reasons. Sexism is one.

There are several reasons why Trump has a chance instead of being a joke:

1. He appeals to authoritarian-follower personalities. The Republicans haven't really made a strong appeal to that personality type in a long time. George W sort of halfway did it, but Trump is going full potato on it.

2. Racism, xenophobia, and the other deplorabilities. Same deal.

3. Sexism. In this case Trump is not the one to blame, despite Mike Pence's appeal for a "broad shouldered" government. That's why I list it separately from the deplorables. The sexist hate for Hillary was pre-existing -- indeed, a surprising amount of the opposition to Bill Clinton in the ninteties focused on Hillary all along, because she became a symbol of feminism. Hatred of feminism is every bit as powerful as hatred of other frightening minority views, such as Islam or communism or atheism. Unlike the racist and xenophobic issues, Trump didn't even have to do anything to get these voters in his pocket.

But I think the biggest factor may be:

4. The fact that both parties sold out the blue collar working class -- the Rs because they viewed them as nothing but an extractable resource, and the Ds because they stopped caring about voters who wouldn't come along with them on issues like civil rights, abortion, and gay marriage. At this point these voters don't just want justice, they want revenge. In practice they've been completely unrepresented for a long time, and have little to no stake in preserving the status quo.

[dawg]

19. To hell with working class whites who wouldn't come along with us on civil rights.

We're still protecting their Social Security and Medicare. We're still fighting to increase their minimum wage. We're still fighting to help their kids go to college without a ton of debt. And we fought to give them extended unemployment (and a tax stimulus) during the worst recession of their lifetimes (that began under Bush).

We didn't abandon them. They abandoned us.

And to hell with them.

[sendero]

48. Finally..

.. someone mentions the 800 lb gorilla. People are sick of the status quo and no longer see Dems as much or any better than Reps at working for the non-elites.

[world wide wally]

16. I would agree with the OP, but it doesn't explain why the late swing to Trump (if that is true)

This is a coup and the media is smack dab in the middle of it. They are contributing their part of the deal by trying to swing voter sentiments here at the end.
The GOP instructs the FBI
The Russians hack the opposing party
Trump bellows

[paulkienitz]

21. There's no accounting for short-term swings.

It's as if people's memories only last about nine days, then everything that they learned starts to evaporate and they start believing the bullshit again.

[thejoker123]

24. I addressed that in my post

Maybe you don't agree.

[paulkienitz]

26. the nine-day phenomenon occurs in all elections, not just this one

as far as I can tell.

[thejoker123]

27. I'd have to look but...

I'm pretty sure the swings in this one are particularly wild.

[jaxind]

18. Agree!

But, I also think it's because she's a Clinton! The Rethugs hate, hate, hate anything Clinton!!

[karynnj]

20. While there is some sexism, this is very overblown

NO race for President in recent times has been won by a margin of 20 points. The country is polarized and there likely is a bottom of more than 40% for each party - the highest amount that they could get and loss by 20 points in a 2 way race. Note this is not a two way race.

In addition, while I agree wholeheartedly that Trump is far beyond any other Republican nominee and is unacceptable, Hillary Clinton has some negatives as well. I suspect that had it ever been polled, she would have polled worse than "generic Democrat" because she really is a tough vote for Republican leaning independents completely disgusted with Trump. She did poll less well than Bernie Sanders vs Trump back when both were in the primaries. I wish they would have polled Elizabeth Warren vs Trump -- and that result would help to answer how much is gender -- but no one did because she was not running.

Be happy that Hillary Clinton will become President. However, I do not believe her problems are that she is a woman. I think it is that she really mishandled the email process - then mishandled how to deal with it when it became known.

[duffyduff]

30. Wrong. It IS sexism.

It can ONLY be sexism when the most unqualified person EVER to be nominated by a major political party is against the first woman candidate of a major political party in American history.

MILLIONS of Republican women will vote Clinton. It has nothing to do with your fantasy that the electorate is "divided" and that Republicans will vote party line.

Where have you been this election cycle? Your post is full of boilerplate nonsense that is spewed by so-called pundits.

Furthermore, Johnson and Stein will get very little of the vote.

Let me guess...you were a Bernie supporter.

You think he would have done better? I would like to have whatever it is you are smoking.

[karynnj]

33. I guess personal attacks are your mode when you disagree

You ignore that while Clinton is extremely qualified and competent, she has high negatives - mostly due to how she handled the questions on her email.

Not to mention, there are people voting against her because of abortion and Supreme Court justices and other conservative issues.

Consider Gore was far more qualified than Bush by any metric and he did not win by 20 points - and they were of the same gender.

you have not made the case that without sexism, she would be over 60 percent, a huge huge landslide! it is pretty weird to claim sexism as you claim that Republican women are voting for her.

[thejoker123]

42. You're leaving out..

Trump. We're not talking Hillary verse Romney or even Bush. We're talking about Trump, a man few people would even let near their daughters, a deplorable disgusting man. And that's not even touching on how comically unqualified he is.

Systemic, inherent sexism exists in our society, some of it overt (go look at a trump rally), some of it subconscious. The extreme double standard Hillary has had to deal with from day 1 is part of that. She needs to prove FAR FAR FAR more than any white man that she deserves this, that a woman can be president. I think you're crazy if you don't think a decent number of people think Trump is disgusting, but also don't like the idea of a woman president.

I think it's silly to assume this isn't effecting a solid 5-10% of the vote in this election of her verse trump.

[karynnj]

44. I actually am NOT as I think that Trump may actually end up defining

the floor for what ANY Republican nominee would get. I have listened to various PBS shows that have tried to get people to define why they are for one candidate or the other. Many who say Trump admit they have problems with him but go on to say they are voting for the Supreme Court and against abortion, for the "second amendment", against executive actions against carbon pollution ... etc.

The closest I have ever been in their position was as a NJ citizen in 2002. It was very clear that Torrecelli was pretty sleazy, but it was possible that fall that NJ could determine control of the Senate. Both my husband and I were prepared to vote for him - even though in a primary we would have gladly voted against him. Now, bad as Torrecelli was, he was not Trump level bad ... and this would have been a Senator not the President.

I honestly do NOT see that her being a woman could affect 5 to 10%. This would assume that as many as to 8 to 16.7 % of Democrats and Independents would be so against voting for a woman that they would vote for a male with the type of baggage Trump has. This assumes that Democrats are 40% and Independents 20%. (ie to lose 5 to 10% of the total, she needs to lose 8 to 16.7 % of the people who might have considered her and assuming that is 60% is generous.) Note this includes ALL independents including some who are right leaning. In addition, it does not account for a portion of normally Republican women, of whom even before Trump got the nomination, were identified as potential Clinton voters. It is possible that there are more normally Republican women that she wins because she is a woman than normally Democratic votes lost because she is a woman.

Telling me to "look at a Trump rally" ignores that it is highly likely that NONE of the people there were likely to vote for ANY Democrat. Look at twitter comments -- the people proudly calling themselves "deplorables" are not attacking just Hillary Clinton ... or just HRC and Elizabeth Warren. They are just as negative on Obama ... and if you think that is just based on race ... they are just as negative about Joe Biden (how white male can you get?) and John Kerry.

You need to look at the universe of even remotely reachable people. (Note HRC's deplorable comment openly speaks of this.)

[thejoker123]

46. The "reachable" people are the ones I'm taking about.

Moderate republicans, independents, blue dog dems, etc. - non-extremist generally reasonable people who should have no earthly reason to ever consider Trump over Hillary. Not just based on policy, but for plain decency's sake.

But unless these polls are wrong, most of these people are still going to vote for Trump. And this is what is making the whole world scratching their heads and trying to begin to fathom WTF is going on here.

I'm not saying sexism is all of it, but I think there's more of it driving people away from Hillary than we realize. As Obama just said today, there's a reason we've never had a female president.

[deathrind]

52. Agreed.

"However, I do not believe her problems are that she is a woman."

Some of what we are seeing is (I believe) but it is a small percentage a bigger part is that it is HRC. Republicans / The Rightwing has had a hatred for her and Bill for decades now. A more polarizing Dem does not exist for republicans/rightwing. They have built an entire industry off of going after the Clinton's from Whitewater in the 90's to the recent E-mails issue. Some want to think that it is all about sexism but it is not, that is not why Trump, perhaps THE most unqualified/insane candidate to ever run for president is still a serious candidate.


This would have been very good to see.

"I wish they would have polled Elizabeth Warren vs Trump -- and that result would help to answer how much is gender -- but no one did because she was not running."

[Lucky Luciano]

23. The media also give orangefuck a lot of big passes.

If orangefuck wins, it will be a ratings bonanza for his entire presidency - " omg, what will he say next?!" Will make the news more watched than ever before.

[GeorgeGist]

29. Bigotry. Republicans thrive on it.

[hfojvt]

34. I am sure we are gonna have to hear this nonsense

for the next four years.

We on the left just love our isms. Keeps the clicks going to Salon too. We love going there to get things Salonsplained.

[thejoker123]

35. Yeah....

And all the hate towards Obama had nothing to do with his color either.

LOL, I wish I could be so gleefully naive.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

37. That's definitely a factor.

The polling differences between men and women of the same ethnicity and similar education levels support that conclusion.

Funny story:
I worked with an old, retired veteran in early 2008 who told me that he didn't like Obama because of his "lack of experience." I asked him who he liked, expecting to hear a Republican candidate, and he replied, "I support the broad, Hillary! We need a broad running things for once!"

Him supporting a candidate that he called a "broad" made me chuckle.

That old guy passed away since then, by the way.

[Albertoo]

39. I'll be the lonely voice of dissent: sexism is a negligible issue in this election

None of the Republican web rhetoric is aimed at gender (even though 'Trump' Republicans are far heavier on machismo than mainstream/'establishment' Republicans)

The issues as seen from Trump Republicans are jobs, taxes, identity and guns.
- jobs (losses to China/Mexico or EPA standards) and taxes (the Reagan/Laffer mystique)
- identity (a feeling of being overwhelmed by the ex-minorities), includes guns (Wild West)
on both counts, far more than mainstream Republicans.

To claim the Trump loons have sexism as an agenda probably comes straight out of the imagination of a gender studies teacher in search for self-justification.

[thejoker123]

41. You misinterpreted my post

First, I never said sexism is the prime motivator for all Trump supporters, racism and xenophobia are. BUT...if you think there isn't furious sexism amongst Trump suppprters, you must not be paying attention. His supporters wear totally offensive sexist shirts. They love it when Trump calls women fat and ugly and so on. When he says Hillary needs a nap and so on.

Go to a Trump rally and you won't find a bigger group of raging sexist.

That being said, my point wasn't about the right wing base, it was that sexism its playing a big role in why this is only a 3% race right now, a race between a serious, accomplished, overly qualified politician and an evil cartoon villain who few Americans would let near their daughters.

I'm talking about moderates and independents. I explained that our society's inherent sexism is why Trump is given unprecedented latitude for the most outrageous behavior whereas Hillary is crucified if she laughs the wrong way.

It's no different than most corporate environments where while often the biggest white male idiots gets promoted, the females who get promoted are always the best performers. This is structural, inherent sexism, sometime it's overt, often it's subconscious.

It's the same reason Obama didn't crush McCain/Palin by 10%+ on the heels of the bush presidency no less! Because a certain segment of society "didn't trust" him. And we all know why that was. They'd rather risk more years of white republican rule than the black guy. And now it's the same with a woman.

To deny sexism doesn't play a role is like saying racism didn't with Obama. You're basically saying these things don't exist in our society, or that people just put that aside when electing their leaders.

Their has been the most extreme double standard we've ever see in this election. And a lot of that is because Hillary is the first woman. If you don't see that, you're kidding yourself.

[Albertoo]

54. I disagree with you, but we won't convince each other

We agree on the fact there is rampant machismo among 'Trump Republicans' (vs the ex-mainstream ones)

But it would be a safe bet to venture there are literally dozens of millions Democrats who also are sexist.

And in terms of weight of the factors in this election -and that's the key point where we disagree-, I'd say sexism doesn't register on the radar.

[thejoker123]

55. I totally agree that there are

Plenty of democrats who are sexist too. That's my whole point.

We'll respectfully agree to disagree, I'm just not seeing the logic is agreeing that sexism is rampant, but surely is having little to no effect on the first female candidate for president. It doesn't make a lot of sense, and mirrors what the right says when it comes to the racism that Obama faces.

[Albertoo]

56. There is a logic

Machismo can be rampant on both sides of the spectrum (R and D), just like many other things: playing table tennis, homosexuality, stamp collecting, lots of things.

These factors, while they might be important to this or that person, are not key factors in this election.

In the same way, I put it to you sexism is a very minor factor in this election.

But we already agreed to disagree on that point

[thejoker123]

57. Your consistent use of the word "machismo"

as opposed to "sexism", which is the subject at hand, is pretty telling. The two words are not the same, at all. The only times I've ever heard anyone try to write off sexism as "machismo" I was staring at a blatant sexist.

If that's not you, than you should choose your words more carefully.

Good day.

[Albertoo]

58. A distinction without a difference

And I'm not sure people who do not bother to analyze the fine print between the words machismo and sexism automatically qualify as sexist.

[Montauk6]

40. Oh there's an ugly unspoken truth alright...

The country just can't handle a male First Lady.

[Wounded Bear]

43. K & R ...... nt

[JonLP24]

59. As a country we have become more and more partisan

So no matter who the Republican is he is going to get 40% of the vote it doesn't matter who or who they're running against.