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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe CEO of Ford just perfectly summarized the biggest problem for electric cars
The reason is simple: consumers don't want electric cars. It's the D-word — demand. And demand isn't there.
...
Ford Motor Co. plans to lobby President-elect Donald Trump to soften U.S. and state fuel-economy rules that hurt profits by forcing automakers to build more electric cars and hybrids than are warranted by customer demand. “In 2008, there were 12 electrified vehicles offered in the U.S. market and it represented 2.3 percent of the industry,” Mark Fields, chief executive officer of Ford, said in an interview at Bloomberg’s Southfield, Michigan, office Friday. “Fast forward to 2016, there’s 55 models, and year to date it’s 2.8 percent.”
http://www.businessinsider.com/ford-ceo-biggest-problem-for-electric-cars-2016-12
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bravenak
(34,648 posts)So I think he should do nothinb
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)But it's not like everybody wants to use coal. Some are moving to other fuels. As long as demand is not high, so need no new coal mines. Besides, they don't even need the same amout of miners with the advent of technology.
TeamPooka
(24,221 posts)stockings.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)No governemnt vehicle outside of a public safety one should not be electric past 2020. Make it a mandate that to get any grants, assistance or other money a state or local government must have an electric fleet.
The GSA has almost a quarter million vehicles it manages for the Federal Government. This fleet needs to be as close to all electric as possible.
Are you trying to get a government contract that will involve the use of a vehicle? Mandate in the contract language the use of electric vehicles.
The US Postal Service is right now looking at the next generation of Postal delivery vehicles. There is no reason that they shouldn't be electric.
This will do several things. It will subsidize the market. It will pulp cash into companies so they can make the electrics better. It will give volume to the companies making them and the parts so the overall cost of making electrics drops. And it will expose more people to the electrics and give them familiarity with them, and that will help drive demand up.
If you dont want one, why should you be forced to buy one?
Obviously the market has rejected them to a great degree, which means that something about them does not appeal to the public. Find out what that is, change it, and let the consumer flock to the product.
If I dont like beef, why should government force me to buy steaks?
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]
Kilgore
(1,733 posts)Incentives work much better than a stick.
Plus somewhere around 50% dont beleive GW is happening, or we contribute to it. Want to alienate those folks or convince them to go electric?
Grey Lemercier
(1,429 posts)and the USA will be brought to heel on this one way or another. It's just a fact of life that petrol cars will go away.
Kilgore
(1,733 posts)Calling people names is a great way of getting them to understand. I can see the bumper stickers now "The only way they will take my petrol is from my cold dead fingers" or possibly the "Petrol Police" making people "heel"
Sorry, force is a dumb effing idea.
Grey Lemercier
(1,429 posts)It the climate change. Sorry, but mother natures wins out versus petrol greed.
TransitJohn
(6,932 posts)Otherwise, you might see that mandating government vehicles be electric would result in the cessation of the delivery of government services in most of the country.
Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)What if I live in an apartment where electric car charging does not exist?
Or an older house without the proper service amps to charge my electric car.
On the plus side, 2019 would be a record breaking year to buy new cars before that law took effect.
deaniac21
(6,747 posts)
global1
(25,241 posts)In order to become accepted they need to be priced right and promoted right.
Right now they are still being premium priced and promoted as premium.
If they are better - they need to be priced the same as a gas version. If they would be equivalent to a gas version - they need to be priced less expensive.
The American Cosumer also needs to be better educated in driving them. Right now as for the most part they are still considered foreign or strange than what we are familiar with.
Car makers should make them appealing price wise to car rental companies so that more Americans can drive them and get used to them and not he afraid of them.enough
If we let the auto industry off the hook on the fuel economy standards - they will take the easy way out and electrified vehicles will continue to struggle to become mainstream or will be abandoned.
The Oil Cos. are still too strong a lobby and that doesn't help either.
One thing we might be able to count on with the Repugs in power now is that gas prices will begin to rise again - making the economy of an electrified vehicle more appealing.
We also don't have bright minds like Henry Ford running these car companies these days.
Greed has taken over and they want to get deep into the pocket of the American Consumer.
doc03
(35,325 posts)years. I don't see that many of the hybrid version on the road.
global1
(25,241 posts)Again - if you want to make electric cars ubiquitous - they need to be priced affordably to mainstream consumers that shop for both cost and value.
Lincoln is a bad example here.
doc03
(35,325 posts)in gas or hybrid for the same price there wouldn't be many of them on the road either. Now if
gas was $4.00 again some people may buy them.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)
hamsterjill
(15,220 posts)To be able to charge it in my garage was going to be cost prohibitive. Would have had to do major electrical work as I live in an older home.
Do you think this is something that has kept demand down?
baldguy
(36,649 posts)And they wonder why the demand isn't there.
hatrack
(59,584 posts). . . which is about a 50% discount, depending on trim line.
So, in answer to your question, yeah, they're affordable. Some places and some days, more affordable than usual.
doc03
(35,325 posts)mythology
(9,527 posts)I live in a condo complex and there isn't a place I could install a battery charger. There isn't a charger at work I could use. I effectively can't get an electric car because while there is a gas station on every corner, there isn't an electric charger.
Sometimes the government has to provide incentives. Look at how we had solar panels for decades before people began to really use them.
branford
(4,462 posts)Also, even if there were charging stations, they take HOURS to charge while pumping gas take a few minutes.
drray23
(7,627 posts)The Tesla superchargers can do it in minutes...
https://www.tesla.com/supercharger
You can also get a very fast one for your home. The technology is there, whats missing is market penetration. There is not enough of those around to make it convenient. Its kinda like a chicken and egg problem.
branford
(4,462 posts)Herein lies another problem with the availability of charging access.
drray23
(7,627 posts)Tesla however is installing those for public use at restaurants, parking lots, etc... if you go to that link i posted and search for chargers near you i bet there is one close by. I know there are some at jfk.
Angleae
(4,482 posts)I don't know anyone who can even think of affording one of those.
dawg
(10,624 posts)We didn't wait for demand for unleaded gasoline to outpace demand for leaded. We mandated the one over the other because leaded gas was harmful.
It's literally the same sort of thing.
Zing Zing Zingbah
(6,496 posts)because we don't have the infrastructure to support wide spread use of electric cars in this country. That is something the government needs to invest in first before people will be willing to buy electric cars.
Raise the fuel tax until it becomes cheaper to drive an electric car or take public transit. Use the taxes to fund several charging options and fund more public transit. Hit the drivers in their pocketbooks and they will change, it's a win-win for the USA. This will get the gas hogging bad for the environment SUVs and pickups off the road. Drive down any suburban street and you will see a 4 wheel drive pickup or SUV in nearly every driveway, these are unnecessary and waste energy and pollute our environment.
I rarely use my car, it's a Prius and it burns hardly any gas, most trips around town I ride my bike or walk. I live in a mid size university town so I have good public transit and bike lanes.
We need to force these people (mostly repukes) out of their gas guzzling behemoths.
As a manufacturer Ford is one of the worst offenders as they build and sell he most trucks. I think trucks should be licensed for farm, business and government use only, no suburban or city dweller really needs a truck.
branford
(4,462 posts)First, America is big, and not everyone lives or wants to move to the city or suburbs, including the people who grow our food. Many people live in rural and exurban areas not served by public transportation and/or require vehicles like trucks or SUV's for work or because of difficult terrain.
Second, the wealthy who generally have the largest carbon footprint can afford increased fuel taxes. The middle class and working poor would be hardest hit by increased taxes. Further, a great deal of commercial delivery is done by truck, including from port or train to retail location. It would result in an increase in consumer prices from everything from luxuries to basic food staples.
Third, not everyone is physically capable of just riding a bike or walking (to the extent destinations are even a reasonable distance). The old, infirm and disabled would be disproportionately impacted just like the poor. Also, did you even consider families with young children, or is it every man for himself?
I'm glad you have so many options, as you clearly have sufficient funds to own a Prius and live in a nice suburb, and probably are not responsible for transporting young children, ailing relatives, etc., or require larger vehicles for professional use.
Ironically, it's exactly this type of implicitly elitist bubble policy suggesting that helped propel Trump into the presidency.
If you believe we're going to tax our way into electric cars, you're dreaming. Such policies would not pass even among most elected Democrats, and would most negatively affect minorities and other working poor that Democrats claim to represent (and wish to regain from Trump in upcoming elections).
FXSTD
(25 posts)
Cicada
(4,533 posts)The giant Tesla battery factory will drive battery costs to maybe $5000. Electric cars have maybe 20 moving parts so repairs will be crazy low. They don't waste two thirds of power on waste heat and braking so propulsion costs will be far less than half that of gas cars. So by 2025 total cost of an electric car will be about $500 per month compared to the current average of $1000 per month for a gas car. Gas cars are going to be a novelty. The huge cost saving will take care of demand pretty soon.
branford
(4,462 posts)without government intervention. However, who's going to build and when will we see charging terminals as ubiquitous as gas stations over the next nine years? Also, where will these terminals be in apartment complexes and will technology reduce charging times from hours to minutes in the same time frame. Will be also need more oil, coal and natural gas to power the electric grid to charge these millions of new electric cars?
Nevertheless, congratulations on making the capitalist argument against any government action in favor of electric cars.
Lurker Deluxe
(1,036 posts)20 moving parts?
Somehow suspension and steering systems are going to be gone? Heating and cooling systems are gone? The only difference between electric and gas is the propulsion system and possibly the braking system, but mechanical brakes will still have to be there for safety. And while electricity is efficient in some ways it is terrible in others, ask anyone who has electric heat. You think that gas "wasting" power on heat is bad? Wait until you have to heat that same vehicle with electric from a standing temperature of 20 degrees every time it stops for any period of time. The energy required to keep the sleet from freezing on your windsheild is free from a gas engine, it is a byproduct, take that away and the requirement becomes massive.
Not everyone lives in California.
Cold climates will be a killer for electric, the heat requirement for a 6 passenger vehicle is massive on a cold rainy/snowy day and power requirements for moving through snow will triple the required torque.
Electric may become viable in some areas of the country but to think that gas/diesel will become a "novelty" is not taking all conditions into account.
Cicada
(4,533 posts)Gas cars generate waste heat - the engine is hot, the brakes are hot, the exhaust and the exhaust pipe are hot. Most of the energy generated by burning the gasoline is wasted. Only a small part of the energy used to charge the batteries of an E car is wasted. Energy costs money. Wasting far less means money saved.
E cars have many fewer parts. So they weigh less, saving power to haul them around and fewer parts need to be bought initially. And E cars have many fewer expensive moving parts which break and need repair.
When making a car battery costs much less, E cars will cost far less to buy, operate and repair than gas cars. I figure about half as much.
That is the big picture on demand.
Not the precise number of moving parts.
Lurker Deluxe
(1,036 posts)You addressed nothing in my post, you just repeated the same thing.
The heat is not wasted if you need it, you know ... to heat the car up when it is cold. How do you address the energy that will be needed to perform this without combustion? You can not.
The only difference in moving parts is the difference between the engine/transmission and battery/motors, the rest is the same. There is no huge difference in moving parts unless you count the engine by individual parts of the assembly.
My commuter vehicle is a Kia Soul that gets about 30 mpg average and I paid 14K for it, that is pretty low cost. I do no more repairs to that vehicle than I would an electric. I looked at the Soul EV, it was 33K had 30 less effective horsepower, weighed 400 pounds more.
Price aside, the EV had a range of 131 miles per charge. The cost of that charge on the quick charge would be 50KW, at $.13KWH that would cost $6.50, giving a cost of $.05/mile. The gas Soul gets 35 MPG at 65 MPH, so it would travel 131 miles in two hours using 3.71 gallons of gas at $2/gallon for a cost of $7.40 or $.06/mile.
Those numbers change if you can charge it slowly and off peak, and they change pretty drastically. The cost to charge the car the long way is 10KW and off peak I can get power at $.12KWH making the numbers change dramatically. 10KW*$.12/131 = $.01/mile.
I figured I would probably average between the two, giving me a $.03/mile price, about half that of gas. Not a bad savings if the initial cost of the car is tossed out.
I live in Houston Texas and have a place in Conroe Texas about 40 miles to the north, I keep a boat on the lake (sail boat which is more efficient than anything) which is about 12 miles from my place in Conroe. So, if I get a day off and decide to go to the lake I will drive an easy 120+ miles for that trip ... the reason I have commuter car which is efficient. Everything is fine with that EV in that scenario as long as everything goes as planned, but it doesn't. If it is hot ... Hello, Houston, the effective range of that EV changes depending on how fast you are moving time/energy for air conditioning but as long as 40MPH can be averaged the range drop will be 20% ish, making my range now 105 miles. Not enough for that trip. No biggie I stop at my place in Conroe and do a quick charge, but the quick charge only gives me 80% capacity which drops my range to just over 80 miles, still enough to make it home, but certainly could be an issue with any kind of traffic nightmare or simply having to turn around because I forgot something on the boat. Going 10 miles out of the way to stop at a friend's house would require me to tap his electric bill for $6 ... sure, come over anytime!!
Is there savings there? Sure. The 120 mile round trip went from $7.40 to $3.60 (1slow/1quick charge) is that savings something I would justify to sacrifice the security and comfort of my 400 mile range in my gas Soul? No.
Until the electric car can resolve the issue of range and refueling issue they will not be popular with anyone except the person who has a daily commute of less than 50 miles, never goes anywhere over 40 miles from home, and never gets stuck in traffic in 100+ heat.
And of coarse that is assuming the price gets competitive, right now ... it is not even close.
Cicada
(4,533 posts)And braking in a gas car wastes the energy used to get up to speed. An E car recovers some of the energy used braking by recharging the battery. The average gas car costs $33000, not the $14,000 you paid. The Tessa 3 after rebate will cost about $35,000 with options most will chose. So now we have parity on initial cost. But batteries will get much cheaper and economy of scale of production of E cars will lower other upfront costs so that E cars will be much cheaper even with no rebates. I care about costs. I will prefer cars which cost less to buy, less to run and less to repair. I also prefer cars which cause less global warming. Gas cars are doomed to being pretty rare.
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)When will your electric car be able to haul 28ea 80lb bags of concrete, 28 ea 4"x4"x 10' poles, powered auger (gas powered, another problem) 60 gallons of water ( 8# per) sixty miles to a job site.
Till you can do that i will stick to my F-150 Crew Cab with a 3L Ecoboost engine.
Zorro
(15,740 posts)but consumers want Teslas.
Musk had the strategic vision to build a supporting infrastructure, something the other US car manufacturers still haven't bothered with.
The German manufacturers understand the future, and are making big commitments in electric car tech.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)It does sell more than other luxury sedans, such as the Mercedes S-class.
Zorro
(15,740 posts)Tesla doesn't have a demand problem, they have a supply problem.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)
Bucky
(53,997 posts)
kimbutgar
(21,130 posts)Thats the real reason. But why not a solar powered car with roof panels?
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)More or less depending on angle of sun, clouds, etc.
still_one
(92,138 posts)infrastructure isn't there yet. Both have been coming down, and it will get better.
Chevrolet's answer to the second issue is the Volt. For up to 45 miles per day it will cover you on all electric. Beyond that it will kick into gas, but for a lot of people's driving habits, they can drive for months on all electric without filling up with gas, so they get the best of both worlds.
The price is still higher than most would like though, around 35K, with tax credit incentives that comes down to 23 - 25K depending on your state. Federal tax credit is 7500. Still people need to view their tax situation to see if it is a viable option.
Toyota will be releasing a new Prius electric/hybrid plugin that will give them 20 miles of all electric. That is double what the current model Prius plugin gave.
It will get better, and prices will become better also
caraher
(6,278 posts)2013 model, and even paying the "certified pre-owned" premium it was about $14k
I used 3 gallons of gas in August and September combined. Then I took two long trips in October... even with that, over that same period I drove 67 miles for every gallon of gas I bought. (Yes, I know there are also environmental costs to the electricity...)
EVs and plug-in-hybrids are still very much for homeowners only. Sure, Tesla has fast chargers, but you're still tied to a pretty limited network for those. The Volt is pretty much ideal for where we are today - in daily use most drivers won't touch a drop of gas, but you can still take it across the country worry-free.
Also - cold weather matters a lot! Usually I get between 3 and 4 miles per kWh, but the other day I got in and saw my wife had been driving in electric mode blasting the heat full-force. The result? 1 mile per kWh! I told her she should stick it in "Hold Charge" mode while she's getting warm and switch to electric if she's taking a trip of any significant distance (i.e. more than 10 miles round-trip!).
still_one
(92,138 posts)the tax credits, 5K bonus, and a 2004 Prius trade in, the final price for me was about 21K. In addition, I received the HOV sticker, which are on hold in California for electric+internal combustion engine cars. Only all electric cars will still get the HOV sticker.
You won't get as much charge capacity during cold weather, but still around 30 to 35 miles on all electric. The back seat has been slightly improved with more leg room in the newest volts, but it still means more, and they replaced the awful instrument panel on the 2013, which was one of the worst ergonomic messes I have seen.
I don't have an issue with using the heater in cold weather as you mentioned, but then again I am in California, which gets cold, but not as cold as other regions.
I would like to see them incorporate that technology in other models. They have a version of the Cadillac, but it is too expensive. Around the same price as a Tesla S model. Tesla is not affordable for most people. Even the model 3, which they say will be 35K, won't be available until 2018, and by that time with the competition, and price of gas, that price may not hold. Chevrolet will release the Bolt his year for about 37K, and will have at least a year lead on the Tesla model III.
When the Volt first came out its SRP was 45K. Today, that price is about 35K before tax incentives.
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)
Calculating
(2,955 posts)They usually cost >$10000 more than a gas powered equivalent. With that kind of money you could literally buy gas for years. The other problem is limited range and battery charging times. They're not good for going on long trips, or driving in winter, so you almost need to have a second gas powered car on hand for such occasions.
CentralMass
(15,265 posts)Here are the 5 cheapest electric vehicle. With the Federeral rebates (e-incentives) these vehicles are all around $21k or less with some under $20k.
http://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/cheapest-electric-vehicles-available-2016.html/?a=viewall
Then you can factor in reduced maintenence. No oil changes. No belts or water pumps, catalytic converters or exhaust systems.,radiators etc.
Where I work (in Oregon) my employer provide quite a few parking spots with electric charging stations.
Using the Nissan Leaf as an example to compare against a car that gets 30mpg I would save $400/yr on my relatively short work commute. Even more adding in my recreational driving. Once gas climbs back up the saving will be proportionately higher.
A car like the Nissan Leaf or Chevy Spark woulf work for me.
WhiteTara
(29,704 posts)so high. $70,000 for a car is very steep.
still_one
(92,138 posts)infrastructure isn't in place yet. People are limited where they can go on a single charge without a recharge. The second is cost. All electric vehicles are 10 to 50 thousand dollars more expensive then their non-electric counter parts. All that is to be expected for this kind of technology, but since 2008, prices are starting to come down on them, just as prices on solar panels will come down, and as more charging stations become available, demand will increase.
I have a Volt which I bought in 2013. It gives me all electric within a 45 mile range, which in many peoples experience is more than enough, but if I am traveling greater distances beyond 45 miles, it will kick in a very efficient gas internal combustion engine, so I get the best of both worlds. There are negatives about the Volt of course, but those will be worked out.
As for the Ford CEO asking the U.S. to soften fuel standards, I wonder if it is because he is upset because they were caught falsifying fuel standards:
http://www.businessinsider.com/ford-is-being-sued-over-high-fuel-economy-claims-2013-3
They made fun of Toyota's Prius when it first came out, but they were the last ones laughing. I don't know if they are still doing it, but Ford was OEMing Toyota's hybrid technology in their hybrid line.
What are the one's who are whining about why we should lower the fuel standards going to do when Toyota and the competition meet or exceed those standards as they have been doing?
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)we are still not paying for the carbon pollution we are producing.
still_one
(92,138 posts)Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)
so much for the ecosystem.uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... that's stymieng the purchases of these cars
Build an infrastructure and get the prices around that of an SUV and minivan
These guys... like wow
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,338 posts)... and can recharge in five minutes at a corner station, then I'm interested.
Otherwise, electric cars will mostly be bought by well-to-do people as their second, tooling-around-town car. But rarely as someone's ONLY car.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)and yes they can go 500 miles if they burst power is gimped give them the cars burst of 40k watts for 3 seconds only seeing the driver wants to go longer and then keep the up speed below 10k watts.
This can be done BEFORE the implementation of a transmisison, if they tied a transimission into the drive train (like they were supposed to do years ago) then then cheap performance relative to current ICE is not an issue
These problems are already solved, there's less profit in the electric cars (they are half as complicated as ICE) and I've seen the CEO's do something similar with diesel engines in regards to saying the customers don't want them before the Bush era EPA fucked with their output
MichMan
(11,910 posts)So people think they should drop the price by another 10K? smh
On the other hand, if Tesla sold their car for $20K, I would buy one in a minute. Why don't they?
"General Motors stands to lose as much as $9,000 on every Chevrolet Bolt that leaves a showroom once the all-electric subcompact starts rolling out. Sounds crazy, but the damage makes perfect business sense under the no pain, no gain policy driving the electric-vehicle boom in the U.S.
California crafted the doctrine, with tough clean-air rules and a mandate that automakers sell some nonpolluting vehicles if they want to do business in the Golden State. Nine other states have adopted it, including Oregon, New York and New Jersey, and all told they make up nearly 30 percent of the U.S. market. Washington is not among them.
That helps explain why zero-emissions models from more than 10 brands are on the roads, with more on the way. Most are destined to be loaded with red ink for their makers, but they’ll be great deals for consumers as companies unload them to meet targets."
ttp://www.seattletimes.com/business/gm-is-ready-to-lose-9000-a-pop-on-chevy-bolt-as-it-chases-electric-car-boom/
They're still way more expensive than a similar gas powered car. If they can't get the price to that point, people aren't gonna buy them in large numbers. Right now the only people buying EV's are rich people who don't mind paying a bit more to reduce their emissions.
The conclusion here is that EV's still aren't ready for prime time if manufacturers cannot sell them at an affordable price, and make money doing so. The tech just doesn't exist to make these cars affordable. The main limitation is the Li-Ion battery packs which cost a ton.
tinrobot
(10,895 posts)That article is using start up costs as part of the cost of the vehicle. The possible $9K loss stems from the fact that they spent a billion or so to develop it. That means if the car doesn't sell, they will lose most of that billion (i.e. thousands per vehicle)
However, if the vehicle is successful, the start up costs will be amortized and they will profit. That's how most new products work.
The cost of the materials for the Bolt do not indicate that it will be sold at a loss. A similar sized gas powered car would cost around $20K retail, or about $10-12K to build. GM is spending $145/Kwh or about $9k per battery pack for the Bolt. That's the biggest cost. Add in cost of the chassis, drivetrain, etc, and the manufacturing cost would be in the $25K range (for a $37K vehicle).
HassleCat
(6,409 posts)Tax break for the manufacturer. Big tax break for the driver. For suburban commuting, it's the only car to drive. Trump loves tax breaks, so it might work.
hunter
(38,310 posts)Ha, ha...
Global warming is going to destroy this world civilization but people will be hanging onto their cars until the bloody end.
This thing we now call "economic productivity" isn't productivity at all. Rather, it's a direct measure of the damage we our doing to this planet's natural environment and our own human spirit.
Fuck cars.
Calculating
(2,955 posts)The freedom to go where you want, when you want, without needing to wait around on public transit and then do a bunch of walking. I don't see Americans ever giving them up entirely.
SubjectiveLife78
(67 posts)But a representation of the speed at which you can exercise your freedom. Well, not sure if freedom is the right word. Activity might be better. Anything you can accomplish with a car you can do with your own legs, it just takes longer. So maybe a representation of the speed and scale of activity that you can take part in would be even better. Plus you have to pay for insurance, and gas, deal with traffic, maintenance, etc.
MichMan
(11,910 posts)Are you saying I can walk 20 miles each way to the grocery store and carry back a weeks worth of food and a couple bags of water softener salt by myself by walking?
SubjectiveLife78
(67 posts)You're not really free to choose to walk for your groceries. It would be stupid to say move somewhere else, because moving isn't easy. You end up trapped in the culture of the car, with no viable alternative. Tough to call that freedom. So much of society has been built on the speed and scale that planes, trains, and automobiles can work at. That's what cheap energy does though. It produces, and allows for, a non-human scale of activity. Then it becomes impractical to do anything other than what you're doing, or anyone does, which is all anyone can do, because we're all just one small cog in the machine, and everyone tries their best to get through a day.
ileus
(15,396 posts)It's also hard to carry my kayaks to the river.
And hard to carry groceries...
and hard to...
SubjectiveLife78
(67 posts)Or live by the river. Or whatever people did before cars.
Like I said, it doesn't represent freedom, cars represent the speed and scale of activity that you can take part in. You can take part in the activity whether you have the car or not though. Just slower, or at a much smaller scale. You can't tow, or pull, a bass boat without a car. So that's not freedom. Now you have a big boat. You have to pay for it. Get gas. Have to use it enough to make it worth buying. Also have to get the car, fill it with gas, etc. Speed and scale of activity, not freedom of activity.
And I went over the grocery thing, and anything else that's hard to do, in one of the other posts I wrote in the thread. I'm not going to tell you to not use a car to carry your groceries, or that you can't use it, or that you shouldn't use it. That would be dumb on my part.
hunter
(38,310 posts)To be considered a fully functional adult in our society I'm expected to own and drive a car, similar to how women in some cultures are expected to wear burkas.
If car ownership was discouraged then walkable communities and public transportation would be the norm. I live within walking distance of a bus stop but the buses are scheduled by the hour, not the minute. If far fewer people in my neighborhood owned cars the buses would run every few minutes. Their routes might even be electrified, the buses recharged at each stop, or powered by a low-tech overhead wire as they are in San Francisco and other major cities around the world.
Many U.S. Americans spend the vast majority of their lives confined within a hundred yards of a road or parking lot. Cars isolate people from their neighbors, and from the world beyond roads. Cars restrict our freedom. We are forced to travel with identification papers and a unique license plate on our ass. Big Brother is watching. Car cultures enable, even require, a certain level of fascism.
I was just thinking about those caravans of cars headed to #WaterProtectors campsite in ND. What do you want to bet that someone is recording license plate numbers? It also seems to me incredibly incongruous that people are burning fuel to protest a means of delivering that fuel.
I don't have a real answer. A society that banned the use of fossil fuels would look nothing like the society we enjoy now. Electric railroads, delivery vehicles, and public transportation would be a big deal. Air transportation would require expensive "carbon neutral" synthetic fuels. So would conventional container shipping. Solar, wind, or nuclear power are not drop-in replacements for fossil fuels.
Walking and sailing are the traditional forms of human transportation. They are so effective that most of the world, even tiny islands in the Pacific, were inhabited by humans thousands of years ago.
Maybe the answer to global warming is as simple as walking more and driving less, by building our urban areas up to accommodate pedestrians and not cars.
MichMan
(11,910 posts)hunter
(38,310 posts)On the other hand, by some planning and greater good fortune, my wife and I have avoided the commuter lifestyle for many decades now. When we met we were Los Angeles commuters. Some days it would take me more than an hour, each way, for a commute less than twenty miles.
I drive an $800 mid-eighties car that has lost most of it's decorative trim. It has a Bondo patched bullet hole in it, innocent bystander of a gangland shooting. I never wash it but for the windows and headlights. I don't lock it because I've lost a few windows to break-ins. I leave windows open when it's parked, except when it rains, just to make it obvious. The catalytic converter is still functioning, it doesn't burn oil and the analog fuel injector system is still humming along, so I'm neither polluting any more than a newer car, or spewing any more CO2 into the atmosphere. It gets pretty good mileage. I fill the gas tank every couple of months whether it needs it or not because leaving the gas tank near-empty invites trouble with condensation and other miscellaneous gunk.
I hate my car and it hates me. It's not a positive relationship. Silver grey car lives to spite me.
My own children and a few nephews and nieces have moved away to big urban areas, maybe because they feel the opportunities and entertainments in our small city are limited. I think our cosmopolitan small city is magnificent. Sure it has serious gang problems, but I've lived in real small town brain-drain America where the major social activities for young people seem to be beer and sex, graduating to heroin and meth and black-eye abusive relationships. Run, run away!
When the city kids of our family need a car they rent one, maybe borrow one from friends and family. A place to park a car is a luxury in San Francisco and urban areas like it, and I've spent hours looking for parking places when I visit them. My youngest kid takes the Metro to work, a short walk at both ends. A nephew and niece of mine use BART.
Watching our kids navigate the big city is pretty amazing. Being tied to a car, worrying about where it's parked, is a nuisance. I've gotten tickets when I couldn't get back to my car in time to feed the meter, and I've also got burnt in parking garages by not exiting before the $20 an hour or more prime time rates kick in.
Rural farmers and ranchers actually do need their vehicles. My mom's cousin still owns her family's original 19th century homestead and it's a long way down occasionally winter impassible dirt and gravel roads, about as far as as one can get in 48 State U.S.A. from the nearest WalMart and McDonalds.
Everyone else is a pretender. My Wild West great grandmas would kick their sorry asses.
flvegan
(64,407 posts)Congrats regardless of when. You're right about global warming.
hunter
(38,310 posts)I ate some turkey for Thanksgiving too. I didn't cook that. I brought the hearty bean and vegetable salad. Foods made with olive oil are always awesome.
Yes, I was exposed to a lot of hunting and fishing culture as a kid, and I hunted and fished, but it's not something I passed on to my own kids. Hunter is also my name.
My ancestors were ranchers on my mom's side, and dairy people on my dad's. One of my nieces is really exited about goats as a meat and dairy animal.
Meat served at family gatherings is inevitable.
As a little kid I remember watching with fascination my great grandmas cutting up fish, poultry, and small animals, their hands moving faster than I could follow. I got pretty good at cutting up fish, but these days I think we should leave fish in the ocean for the animals who live there. I don't need to eat fish; animals like orcas and elephant seals do.
"Factory farming" of animals sucks.
Response to FarCenter (Original post)
Initech This message was self-deleted by its author.
Calculating
(2,955 posts)Both companies rely on Govt subsidies to sell their cars. Without said subsidies they would be losing money.
MichMan
(11,910 posts)GM loses $9000 on every Bolt. How much more do you want them to lose?
rgbecker
(4,826 posts)Google shows about 30 models (Stretching it) but Fields says 55? Oh, and don't you love the competitive costs?
Somehow electric cars without Exhaust systems, fuel tanks and pumps, starter motors, alternators, fuel injection systems, emission systems, transmissions and clutches somehow cost $10,000 More than similar sized and styled gas driven cars!!??!! I smell the hand of the petrol industry mixing it up with the invisible hand of the marketplace.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1080871_electric-car-price-guide-every-2015-2016-plug-in-car-with-specs-updated
Calculating
(2,955 posts)I think most EV battery packs cost something like $10,000. They're basically thousands of laptop style Li-ion batteries crammed into one big pack, and Li-ion batteries are expensive.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)...bthr Ford CEO is full of shit
It is like diesel cars ...their margin per car would be cut so they gimp the market for them
rgbecker
(4,826 posts)at about $200 per KWH, a Leaf with enhanced 30 KWH pack, would put the battery at $6000, not $10,000. I think there is more to the pricing than the batteries.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1103667_electric-car-battery-costs-tesla-190-per-kwh-for-pack-gm-145-for-cells
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)I want an electric car. I really do. but I do not want to spend $50,000 for a tiny car that I can only charge in a few places around town. I'd pay $25-30K for a decent mid-sized that I could charge anywhere. I want one, but I am not willing to pay a huge premium for one and live with additional inconvenience. WE need: More research and better infrastructure!
bhikkhu
(10,715 posts)And as a mechanic who has to diagnose and fix these things, I have to say Ford's gas engine cars don't impress. The incredible complexity they have wound up with in their engines and drivetrains to compete on mileage and emmissions is impressive, in a way, but way more expensive to build and maintain. Electric cars can be very simple, while there is no even remotely simple path forward for gas-engine cars. Either he's just talking out of his hat or his company may be headed backwards.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)You have to invest in the battery tech, in order to make it so they're not so expensive, and they can hold enough juice for at least 300mi of range. Make them fast charging. Tesla has done that. The next step is making them affordable.
On top of that, do what Tesla did - make the cars so fucking sweet that everyone wants one. Electric motors do have an advantage. A motor the size of a basketball can make enough torque (assuming you've got enough batteries) to make your electric car launch itself like a dragster. See Tesla's "Ludicrous Mode."
Next step for Tesla is the Model 3, the more affordable model, which will make use of increased battery production and reduced per-unit cost, thanks to the Gigafactory, and it will be cars like this that will make electrics really take off.
bhikkhu
(10,715 posts)back when the MP3 players weren't much good. People wanted them, but they weren't much good. So he built one that worked so well people really wanted it. Of course, he could have skipped the part about charging way too much for it...
tinrobot
(10,895 posts)Tesla is a great company, but the Model S/X only replaces high-end BMW-type cars. The Model 3 replaces mid-range BMW-type cars. Not everyone needs a BMW equivalent.
Most people just need a daily commuter or a minivan to haul the kids or a truck to use for work. When these types vehicles become available in EV form and are affordable, then you'll see mass movement towards EVs.
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)Donnie is opposed to alternative energy. Simple as that.
My family is done buying domestic cars.
lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)
Squinch
(50,949 posts)lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)
Generic Brad
(14,274 posts)The thought of being tethered to a small radius and never taking a long drive is abhorrent to me. The thought of taking 30 minutes or more to fuel up is ridiculous. I want to be able to drive cross country wherever I want and electric cars do not permit that.
Within the past 6 months I have driven cross country once and driven round trip 1000 miles six times. Much of that was done out of Tesla's range.
I prefer hybrids like a Prius. I want autonomy.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)No vision and being forced to sensible decisions.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)No sale.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)so I'll be sure not to mention, again, how much I can't stand American cars.
tinrobot
(10,895 posts)Who wants a car with less than 100 miles of range that takes hours to charge on chargers that are hard to find?
There is this thing called a tipping point. Once a new technology catches on, it takes over the old technology very quickly. We witnessed that with DVDs replacing VCRs, cell phones replacing land lines, and now digital TV replacing cable and broadcast. The same thing is going to happen with electric cars.
The next generation of vehicles from Tesla, GM, Nissan, and others will have 200+ mile ranges, faster charging, and cheaper prices. The charging infrastructure is getting better every year, so those objections are fading. Within 3-5 years, EVs will start to be equal or better than gas cars. Once EVs gain equivalence with gas cars, then gas cars will start to go away very quickly. I think you'll see EV's outselling gas cars by 2025, 2030 at the latest.
ReverendHeretic
(45 posts)Then I bought a 2016 sonata.
3x the gas mileage, far more comforting ride, and superb handling. Not to mention a 10 year warranty.
My next vehicle will be electric. Living in the burbs, there is almost no way to get around without a vehicle. With Bruce Rauner fucking up our state something fierce, I don't see public transport ever being reliably useful and fast, not here. Chicago? There you can easily survive without a car. In fact, traffic and parking make it tough for car owners.
JCMach1
(27,556 posts)50-65 mpg in Dallas traffic is normal for me. Ram got 13mpg in the same traffic.
TheBlackAdder
(28,183 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Not much demand for personal computers during their first commercial round of branding in the early eighties.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car
After its initial success, the electric car has never been able to regain significant market share.
drm604
(16,230 posts)Fuels can be produced by taking carbon out of the atmosphere, like plants do. It's not an energy source, since any such process requires an input of energy, but it could be done with bio-engineered photosynthetic algae, or maybe by purely chemical processes driven by solar power.
Kablooie
(18,626 posts)-Limited range per charge.
-Limited availability of public recharge stations.
-Long wait times to recharge.
-Price of car compared to an equivalent gas model.
I recently had to buy a new car and looked at electric but settled on a Prius because of these things.
But these issues are being addressed albeit slowly because of the newness of the technology.
Every year the range is increased for many models.
Charging stations are being installed all over the country.
Tesla has supercharger stations that take less time and are considering robotic battery swaps where your battery is quickly replaced with a fully charged one.
And prices of course will come down as the cars become more popular.
When you have a new category of product, of course there isn't a lot of consumer demand but once the limitations are decreased demand will go up.
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)And then Toyota came out with the Prius, and the rest is history.
