Can we please set one strawman on fire?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Last edited Sun Jan 1, 2017, 12:39 PM - Edit history (1)

Let me preface my remarks by saying none of us are perfect and one hundred percent free from the scourge of racism, sexism, misogyny, xenophobia, anti-semitism, et cetera, even members of groups can subconsciously or consciously harbor prejudices against members of their own group. It's how they deal with them that counts.

Now the strawman

There are folks who are suggesting that Donald Trump's opponents are claiming all of Donald Trump's supporters are racists, sexists, homophobes, misogynists, et cetera. That can not be further from the truth though some are. What we are claiming is that all Trump supporters were aware of his racism, sexism, misogyny, xenophobia, et cetera and voted for him anyway.

As Hannah Arendt famously wrote " The sad truth is that most evil is done by people who never make up their minds to be good or evil." Those form the lion's share of Trump voters.


ON EDIT- 8:35 PST. It is important to make clear I am not absolving of Trump's voters (DEPLORABLES) of responsibility. They, to a one were aware of his bigotry and hatred but overlooked it because there was something in it for them. Adolph Hitler and the National Socialists won a plurality in the 1932 German federal election and a larger plurality, almost a majority in the 1933 German federal election. They were well aware of Hitler's red hot hatred for the Jews. Did all of them want to incinerate the Jews ? Likely not, but they didn't care enough for them to oppose Hitler because they had other priorities.

[malthaussen]

1. I think it needs some modification.

You could say "should have been aware," since the information was plain to see, but the will to stupidity and blindness can erase awareness. Many of Mr Trump's supporters apparently viewed his antics in much the same way as they view their Bibles -- extracting from the smorgasbord what they chose to believe, and ignoring the rest, or claiming it to be humor, rhetoric, whatever. The difference is one of fact and perception, and perception does not always have anything to do with fact.

This is probably why there is so much pushback to this straw man. The majority don't consider themselves racist, nor supporters of racism. They don't appreciate it when confronted with the reality that the facts differ from their perception.

-- Mal

[guillaumeb]

25. Well said. eom

[bettyellen]

27. The criteria for being a racist does not include whether you see yourself as one or even understand

That your actions or behavior are inherently racist.

[pbmus]

49. Very good...

[LaydeeBug]

2. Nope. Absofuckinglutely not

And this OP succinctly says why: Stop pleading for understanding and kindness for Trump Voters
Stop.

Yes they are - even your sweet little old Auntie - racist and hateful.

All of them

I mean - All. Of. Them. - even the theoretical "kind and loving" Trump voters I keep hearing about here on DU:
Acted to support a racist campaign.
Voted for a racist agenda.
Accepted a lying sexually predatory con man, willingly.

They acted to harm my children harm my friends and put the country at risk.

If your kindly little old lady Aunt poured cyanide in my children's water, I wouldn't give a shit if she had been told it was cool aid.

So, I am not moved by the argument that we shouldn't judge as racist people who have done an obviously racist act.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028411453

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. I certainly am not defending Deplorables.

His voters were aware of what a fundamentally bad guy he is and voted for him anyway because they think there is something in it for them or there was a (R) after his name.

The strawman is that Trump's opponents think all of his supporters are bigots. The truth is worse. They knew he was and didn't care.

[LaydeeBug]

8. Yes. You are.

You don't get to extrapolate his racism from their endorsing it, and it is an example they cannot unset for society.

Your assertion that "the strawman is that Trump's opponents think all of his supporters are bigots. The truth is worse. They knew he was and didn't care." belies your premise.

The truth is NOT that they didn't care. The truth is, they are too...and they expect you to tolerate their intolerance.

Fuck that. It's not a fucking strawman. It's the truth

[Alekzander]

11. You are defending them with your post or trying to.

You cannot tell me that & I know some his supporters did not understand or did not know, see & hear the things Trump has said & done. My God, go back & look at the lawsuits he settled because he did not want to rent to Blacks. You say that is not racism.

When you endorse, enable or support someone like Trump, you are supporting his policies the same as David Duke, KKK, White Supremacists are & look who they are supporting.

The people who voted for Trump, supported him did so on these things that Trump said, he gave them hope in a very despicable way.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. To put it simply they knew he was a bad guy and voted for him anyway because...

To put it simply they knew he was a bad guy and voted for him anyway because they saw something in it for them. That is deplorably selfish behavior that I would never begin to defend.

[LaydeeBug]

19. You don't get to extrapolate one from the other.

This is ON them. No bones about it.

It ain't a strawman, sweets. It's the truth.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. My whole point is they own this mess./nt

[LaydeeBug]

23. Your OP betrays that response.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. In light of this how?

ON EDIT- 8:35 PST. It is important to make clear I am not absolving of Trump's voters (DEPLORABLES) of responsibility. They, to a one were aware of his bigotry and hatred but overlooked it because there was something in it for them. Adolph Hitler and the National Socialists won a plurality in the 1932 German federal election and a larger plurality, almost a majority in the 1933 German federal election. They were well aware of Hitler's red hot hatred for the Jews. Did all of them want to incinerate the Jews ? Likely not, but they didn't care enough for them to oppose Hitler because they had other priorities.

[LaydeeBug]

29. Because you are trying to have it both ways.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. Have what both ways ?

Even if you aren't a bad person yourself you are just as bad if you empower one.

The Germans who knew of Hitler's genocide against the Jews were as morally culpable as the SS soldiers who rounded tham up and sent them to the gas chambers. That's Hannah Arendt who was an expert on totalitarianism's whole point when she opined that " The sad truth is that most evil is done by people who never make up their minds to be good or evil."

[LaydeeBug]

43. Yes. Exactly. Your OP says to put the strawman out

that these are not good people. That just because they voted for a racist, not to call them racist.

I say bullshit. I still do.

I am not alone in this. Just read this thread.

[LaydeeBug]

45. Right HERE is where you try to have it both ways:

There are folks who are suggesting that Donald Trump's opponents are claiming all of Donald Trump's supporters are racists, sexists, homophobes, misogynists, et cetera. ************That can not be further from the truth though some are.*************** What we are claiming is that all Trump supporters were aware of his racism, sexism, misogyny, xenophobia, et cetera and voted for him anyway.

That part is bullshit. It *is* the truth.

[LaydeeBug]

30. post #13.

[Alekzander]

10. Absolutely agree with you LaydeeBug.

The poster says:

"There are folks who are suggesting that Donald Trump's opponents are claiming all of Donald Trump's supporters are racists, sexists, homophobes, misogynists, et cetera. That can not be further from the truth though some are. What we are claiming is that all Trump supporters were aware of his racism, sexism, misogyny, xenophobia, et cetera and voted for him anyway"

Well, for me if I know someone was clearly aware of a racist & he preached hate, lies constantly then they are endorsing what he is saying as well as what he is doing. That is being a racist because you are enabling him as they have done. Now, we have a WEhite Supremacist who will work in the WH (Bannon from Breitbart) because of Trump.

You can split hairs on this all you want but it is what it is & trying to

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. I am not absolving them of moral responsibility for what is being done to us.

In fact I think they are worse than actual racists.

The people who provided the rope are just as culpable if not more than the people doing the lynching.

[Alekzander]

15. Well, I have to say I don't understand what you are saying them because with your post, you are

absolutely trying to absolve them of their moral responsibility. Now you say they are worse than actual racists.

When you enable, defend or make racist remarks "or" you knew this, you heard them & yet you supported the person who said & did them, you are one & the same. If I had a friend that supported anyone or I found out that person was a racist, I would walk away & have nothing to do with them.

I refuse to make any excuses for any of Trump's voters or supporters because to me when they voted for him, they made it quite clear about their beliefs.

[LaydeeBug]

14. Exactly. I live in a red area of a blue state...For *one* recent example

Two nights ago, I was having a couple drinks and my friend brought his lifelong friend with him. (I didn't know the old buddy, but him and my friend go way back, so there we all were).

The guys gets a couple in him and banters the n word about a few times (this is testing the water). Then he said that 'all these white women are getting with these niggers, and having little niglets, and then they're RUINED.' NOT EVEN TWO MINUTES LATER, and I mean this, not even TWO minutes later, he said, "Hey, look, *I'M* not prejudiced. I don't have a prejudiced bone in my body"

We just laughed at him. He was too drunk to be reached.

Another example, and this one *hurts*: A dear bestie of mine (I said it hurts) has a tea bagger sister, who worked in VA for the KGOP. My friend, prior to this election, it was few years ago, but the background was important, actually told me that if I am a liberal and tolerant, I should tolerate someone's preference to be racist. Because I should TOLERATE their feelings.

She really meant it. She really thought she had made some amazing point.

These people think this...and they don't want to be reasoned with. They want to be TOLD. I promise this.

[SharonAnn]

17. I can't forgive people's actions - they voted for a racist, a bigot, a misogynist, a liar, a cheater

This is what they voted for. I do not forgive their action.

[LaydeeBug]

33. this. nt

[HopeAgain]

52. They dont want your forgiveness...

we have to change attitudes, keep marching forward by educating and setting examples. Attitudes are changing, gay marriage, for example, is now legal. I think we are in the middle of a backlash.

Socialization, not just condemnation is where we need to focus. We have the means to change attutudes, do we have the patience and persistence to do it?

Hate is a destructive emotion that destroys the haters.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

55. Could.Not.Agree.More!

[randr]

3. It is difficult to determine who the millions souls who died in Nazi death camps

would blame more. The fiends who put them to death or the people who stood by and allowed it to happen.

[NightWatcher]

4. I disagree. We knew enough about him this summer to make this call.

Last edited Sun Jan 1, 2017, 01:45 PM - Edit history (1)

It's not like he's a real nice guy who slipped and said the n word once at a party. This is a guy who has a pattern of sexist, misogynistic, xenophobic, ......

I'm also tired of the news stories that say "breaking news: trump has conflict of interest in..."

We knew this man last Spring. To vote for him is to endorse his actions, or at the least say that they don't matter to you. If what he does doesn't matter to you, you are just as bad as someone who fervently endorses him. His voters picked hate over love, mean over nice, sexism over equality, xenophobia over fairness, Russia over America.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. That's what I said.

We knew this man last Spring

What we are claiming is that all Trump supporters were aware of his racism, sexism, misogyny, xenophobia, et cetera and voted for him anyway.

[LaydeeBug]

34. Love this, but slight correction if I may...

You said..."...hate over love, mean over nice, sexism over equality, fairness over xenophobia, Russia over America."

It should be 'xenophobia over fairness' to keep it congruent.

[NightWatcher]

36. Late night, you're right, lemme fix

[Solomon]

7. I'm sick and tired of people whining on behalf of the hateful assholes who voted for Trump. No we

do not need to kiss their asses. No we do not need to make excuses for them. No we do not need to cut them some slack. No we do not need to beg them to support our views and democrats did nothing wrong that caused Trump to win. Fuck 'em. A lot white people have serious psychological issues with race. Stop trying to make excuses for it and come to grips with it.

[smirkymonkey]

9. I have family members that I love that voted for him. I really don't think they are horrible people

but they don't like "liberals" or Democrats. It is sometimes hard to separate the Trump voter from the human being. I refuse to discuss politics with them, so I don't know their motives, but I can't outright dismiss them as bad people.

[True Dough]

18. Hold your ground on that front, smirkymonkey

To automatically think the worst of the worst about ALL Trump supporters isn't fair. It isn't consistent with what Hillary, Obama or Bernie Sanders have said.

[smirkymonkey]

21. It's strange to say, but somewhere in their muddled heads they actually thought they

were doing the right thing. I will never understand the mind of a republican. They are the kindest people you would ever want to meet if you had never known their political views.

[Bayard]

35. I agree with you Smirkmonkey

I'm not about to drop people I love because they were misled into voting for Trump. For whatever reason, they just plain hated Hillary. There were plenty of Dem's that felt the same way.

This goes for my brother, as well as, the little old religious couple that used to work for me and retired to Florida. Sweetest people you'd ever want to meet. But felt that, no matter their misgivings, they had to vote for a Republican no matter what. We felt we had to vote for the Democrat, no matter what.

Flame away.

[smirkymonkey]

42. No flames from me. Welcome to DU Bayard!

I understand the conflict and it's upsetting so many families.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

56. Some were misled... maybe. But, most were acting deplorably, no question!

[baldguy]

16. Trump voters voted for a guy endorsed by actual fucking Nazis, supported by actual fucking Klansmen

and other white supremacists, and backed by actual fucking Russians employed by the fucking Russian govt.

Sorry. There's no ignoring that, or walking that back.

[uponit7771]

22. AMEN!!! Supporting the racist isn't that much better than being one !!!!

[MrModerate]

26. Actually, even though it's political poison . . .

I don't think you can ignore the fact that many Trump supporters are, in fact, deplorable.

[Chemisse]

28. I think it is a mistake to aid Trump in dividing us by calling Trump voters racists, deplorables, et

These people need to see the error of their ways and vote Dem in 2 and 4 years.

Bashing them is only going to help Trump keep their anger focused on us (the 'enemies') so it doesn't turn against him. That's why he wants to keep doing rallies!

[pintobean]

32. Good post.

For some, the desire to hate overrides common sense.

[Iggo]

31. But if you think racism, sexism, misogyny, xenophobia, et cetera are a-okay...

...then what are you?

Fuck those motherfuckers.

I'm done playing nice.

[jack_krass]

37. I believe that only a small fraction of his voters are racists. The notion that

We live among 60 million racists is ludacris, and that term is so over used now that there is a grave danger of it losing its potency, which would be tragic.

I also believe that there is a self-fullfilling aspect to this... Call 60 million people racists enough times and *some*, (especially neophytes new to politics) of them will resent this, gravitate to the Rush Limbaughs and maybe actually become racists.

[ronnie624]

38. They only *think* there is something in it for them.

What they will find, is lower wages, a greater disparity in wealth, the elimination of social services they depend on, and even more economic insecurity. Not to mention the ever-increasing disruptions to the climate that are sure to come.

But I don't think they will ever make the connection.

[Ms. Toad]

40. Seriously?

There are folks who are suggesting that Donald Trump's opponents are claiming all of Donald Trump's supporters are racists, sexists, homophobes, misogynists, et cetera. That can not be further from the truth though some are. What we are claiming is that all Trump supporters were aware of his racism, sexism, misogyny, xenophobia, et cetera and voted for him anyway.

Have you been reading DU? It is not a strawman.

Stop pleading for understanding and kindness for Trump Voters

Stop.

Yes they are - even your sweet little old Auntie - racist and hateful.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028411453
(Just one of many that can be found without much difficulty)

I don't agree with the sentiment. Personally, I believe many of them are not racist, misogynist, etc. BUT they knew full what Trump stood for. Even though they voted for Trump for reasons OTHER THAN bigotry, they heard his hateful rhetoric, and in voting for Trump they were willing to sacrifice my Native American siblings, my Muslim friends, my marriage, etc. to elect Trump (or to elect non-Hillary).

But the fact that I don't personally believe they were all racist, sexists, etc. is irrelevant to the reality that many Trump opponents are, "claiming all of Donald Trump's supporters are racists, sexists, homophobes, misogynists, et cetera." Calling that reality a strawman, and saying "nothing can be further from the truth" is disingenuous.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. My differences with the poster you cited are subtle.

He is saying all Trump supporters are hateful people. My point is it doesn't matter whether they are hateful people themselves because they knowingly empowered a hateful person. To Trump's victims it will not matter.

[Ms. Toad]

47. You're missing the point.

You are calling a specific allegation a strawman (and an allegation that cannot be further from the truth): that Trump opponents are claiming all Trump supporters are racist, etc.

There are many Trump opponents who are expressly saying that all Trump supporters are racist, etc.

It cannot be a strawman if it is actually what a significant number of Trump opponents are actually saying - and since the actual truth is about as close to the truth as you can get, it is certainly silly to say that it cannot be farther from the truth.

I'm not addressing how far apart your substantive opinion is from the one I quoted. What I am addressing is your assertion that things that a substantial number of Trump opponents are actually saying a strawman, and implying (cannot be further from the trutht) that Trump opponents aren't actually saying that.

[ananda]

41. No.

It was pure hate that drove Trump and his deplorables ..

and that includes all the isms and phobias.

Just because you might not admit to being a racist
or hater doesn't mean you're not one.

[Historic NY]

46. Dog whistle voters.....

[vlyons]

48. From a Buddhist perspective

The 3 poisons of the mind are ignorance, greed, and hatred. Unless you are a completely and perfectly enlightened being, your (and my) mind are to some degree contaminated with one or more of these poisons. Ignorance is not the same as low IQ. Ignorance being the greater poison with greed and hatred being subsets of ignorance. Ignorance means that we don't recognize that we are all connected. So the ahimsa rule of "do no harm" and the "golden rule" are ultimately in our own best interest. Trump supporters are very very ignorant people. I could say a lot more on this subject. Somewhere, somehow, the run-away capitalism of modern society has neglected to teach the golden rule has the baseline standard of morality. I see Trump supporters as not caring much for other people or being mindful of how their actions impact others.

[BigDemVoter]

50. Agreed. . .

Did all of them want to incinerate the Jews ? Likely not, but they didn't care enough for them to oppose Hitler because they had other priorities.

I believe you've made a good point here. Although anti-semitism was prevalent in Germany, not all Germans were anti-semites.

Nonetheless, they were more concerned about their own, shall I say, "insignificant" comforts than they were in the lives and safety of their Jewish co-citizens. . .Ergo. . . they were equally responsible for the brutal murder of 6 million Jews, as THEY put the monsters in a position of power, KNOWING their predilection for violence.

I hold the tRump voters responsible in the same way. No, perhaps they're not blatant racists per se, but they are just as responsible as those who are.

[onecaliberal]

51. You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything.

At the bare minimum these people don't give a rats ass for the least of us. Trump is clearly a pathological liar and has already changed position on almost everything he promised them. He's mentally unstable, lacks intellect and cannot be trusted with state secrets let alone the nuclear arsenal. This isn't a Fucking game of wait and see, millions of lives will be destroyed and to pretend it's okay that anyone would entrust the United States in his hands is unfathomable.

[3catwoman3]

53. If they are not ALL...

...overt racists, bigots, mysogynists, etc, etc, etc, then they are enablers of all those reprehensible mindsets.

A shade of theoretical difference perhaps, but not much practical difference. Whatever their rationale, this is what and who they voted for.

[pansypoo53219]

54. beware the riechstag.