Krugman: We're in much deeper and more treacherous waters than even the pessimists are saying

[highplainsdem]

Krugman, posting on Twitter in the last half hour:


https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/817447039273467904

Some musings on the next few years: We are, I'd argue, in much deeper and more treacherous waters than even the pessimists are saying 1/

It would be one thing if voters had freely chosen a corrupt authoritarian; then we'd be following a terrible but familiar path 2/

But as it is we had a deeply tainted election, and everyone knows it; in truth the FBI was the biggest villain, but Russian involvement 3/

is just so startling, and so contrary to the usual GOP flag-waving, that 2001-type whitewashing of illegitimacy isn't taking hold 4/

A clever, self-controlled Trump would be careful now to preserve appearances and wait for revenge; but instead he's confirming his status 5/

as Putin's poodle/stooge with every tweet. Pretty soon everyone will think of him as a Manchurian candidate, even those pretending not to 6/

Yet there is no normal political mechanism to deal with this reality. So what happens? The GOP decides to impeach to install Pence? 7/

Mass people-power demonstrations? He orders the military to do something illegal and we have disobedience by the national security state? 8/

Or, alternatively, overt intimidation of critics by Trump gangs? Don't call this silly -- tell me how this ends. 9/

[Zoonart]

1. TRUTH

When a guy like Krugman is rattled, we should all pay attention.

[lastlib]

41. "Tell me how this ends." Well, next is a fire in the Reichstag........

Then there is a bloody, violent midnight purge of enemies of the Reich, and... (I think you know how the rest of it goes.....)

. . . . . . .

[BobTheSubgenius]

43. That is EXACTLY what I thought.

Krugman is usually such a calming influence on discourse. However progressive or even aggressive his views are, his words are well-chosen and moderate - in tone, not necessarily content.

To hear him suggest that things aren't as bad as they seem, but actually much worse, is alarming.

[progressoid]

2. "A clever, self-controlled Trump"

no such thing.

[TreasonousBastard]

3. First, remember that no matter how Russia played with us, it was still we, ourselves..

who elected this guy. Ultimately, we have no one to blame but ourselves-- we ignored the obvious warnings and voted our emotions, not our brains.

Yeah, I know, "we" elected Hillary, but that's not how the game is played, Almost half the country supported what might become our destruction, and the EC worked as expected so we as a nation, have to own up to it.

I voted for Hillary in the primary and the general, but as an American I still have to wear the sackcloth of shame. As do all of us.

[Generator]

7. Half of those that voted

That isn't half the country. No one under 18-no one that is not a citizen. All those non-voters. So I need to remember that. He got 25% of the people like our old Buddy Hitler-isn't that about right? Most people can't or don't participate. That is part of the tragedy. And when you consider what the hell Hillary was up against-Russia and people calling her a pedophile and murderer and fake news and Jill Stein AND the FBI and her 30 years of bad press AND her husband's past AND... it's amazing that it's only that 1 percent difference in those three states in the rust belt isn't it that made the difference.

[TreasonousBastard]

34. So? That's pretty much the way it is with every presidential election, and...

those eligible to vote who don't vote are every bit as responsible for the result as the rest of us who do. Infants and imbeciles do not share the blame-- the rest of us do.

We, as a nation, are still responsible for this travesty.

[kytngirl]

21. Spot On!

Thank you. You said it much more eloquently than I ever could.

[TheFrenchRazor]

23. NO, not if they hacked the vote. yes the EC sucks and far too many people actually voted for Trump,

but if the russians hacked the vote, then NO, we did not elect him.

[TreasonousBastard]

35. THEY DID NOT HACK THE VOTE...

they did a lot of things, but they did not get into the thousands of precincts in 50 states plus Puerto Rico, foreign military bases and embassies and the myriad other places people voted. It's simply impossible for anyone to "hack the vote".

[hedda_foil]

68. True, but it's not that hard to hack the central tabulator in select counties or states.

I'm not saying they did, but it's been done before. Think Ohio 2004.

[triron]

28. No the election was stolen!!!

[TreasonousBastard]

36. It was not stolen-- we all went in with eyes open and voted...

just some voted stupidly.

[Blue_Roses]

46. Disagree...

While I agree that a lot of stupid people voted for Trump, the fact remains that there are mathematical anomalies that are inconsistent with the election results. Time will tell.

http://www.cpegonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Unexplained-Patterns-in-2016-and-Earlier-U.S.-Elections.pdf

[Hoyt]

52. Yeah, like the anomalies that ended giving Trump more votes in Wisconsin with the recount.

It's hard to believe, and harder to accept, but Trump won under the stupid rules.

[brush]

77. Not so fast. 75000, mostly AA votes weren't counted in MI.

The recounts weren't really reflective of what the voters wanted

[Brainstormy]

61. I agree!

The election was stolen!

[onetexan]

49. no doubt

[CrispyQ]

65. I don't think it was stolen - heavily influenced, yes, but stolen no.

Even if it had been stolen, the dems have done nothing about two previous stolen elections, why would they do anything now? This is even more nebulous than 2000 & 2004 & they rolled over then. They will not even bark this time. The dems have been neutered. This is what playing nice & drifting to the right for 35+ years has done. Our government is under the control of a rabid group of psychopaths & the democrats are partly to blame. We'll be lucky if we get our country back. I've never felt so negative about the future in my life.

[GliderGuider]

70. The belief that the election was stolen

is simply a psychological self-defense mechanism against shame.

The problem with that belief is that there are (for the moment, at least) no facts that support such a sweeping conclusion. Yes, there are anomalies, dark suspicions and inferences. But no hard facts.

We'd all prefer the idea of a stolen election to one in which much of the electorate was duped, hoodwinked and manipulated into voting against democracy. But that seems to be exactly what happened.

So, as Paul Krugman asks, now what? Another Civil War? A replay of the French Revolution? A trip through time to Germany in 1933? A military coup? WWIII? None of the options seem terribly appetizing.

[Hortensis]

33. I agree. America "owns" this scary-clown president,

and we will be responsible for everything he does. I feel like Child Protective Services should be called to investigate all the parents and grandparents who voted for him. Even if they don't care about endangering other people's children overseas, how could they be so incredibly irresponsible with their own?

[CrispyQ]

66. In a blog I read recently, the man wrote:

"We are about to put a man in the Oval Office who I would not leave alone with my twelve year old daughter."

[Hortensis]

81. Wonder how many have thought that... I certainly have.

[thegoose]

4. It's too late for a pivot or modulation

As if he could do that. This orange POS has dragged an entire country into a cesspool of hatred and lying as a way of life.

[Generator]

5. Tell me how this ends

This is the line I'm thinking. I can't really imagine or don't want to imagine the world past 1/20-what will Trumpfraud's reaction be to the protests all over the country-the protests of the women's march? He will only make people more angry and desperate and then he gets weirder and more crazy and then what will he do? He will have unimaginable power to retaliate. I feel unsafe and unsure of ANYTHING.

[Vogon_Glory]

6. All too likely scenarios

I remember lots of right-wing Christian Fundies claiming that G*d had extended some sort of special protection over the US from the political and social upheaval that convulsed Europe and Latin America from 1870 to the present.

If I had more Fundy mindset, I'd say that our exemption got yanked when the voters blew off Biblical exhortations to practice love, kindness, charity, and good works to elect an exemplar of Mammon-worship like the President-elect.

My mindset is more secular, and the Magoos that listened to talk radio, like the rest of us, are in for a rough ride. We're going to experience much of the cr*p we'd missed.

[Hum]

8. Isn't Manchuria in China?

Personally, I would call Trump the Siberian Candidate.

[Hekate]

19. It's a reference to a book and movie called The Manchurian Candidate

But if you already knew that, your point is taken

[maddiemom]

24. Two movies actually (1962, with Frank Sinatra; remade in 2004 with Denzel Washington).

The 1959 novel was by Richard Condon. Originally several soldiers in the Korean war were captured and brainwashed by the Chinese Communists, with no memory of their ordeal when released: just had some strange nightmares and flashbacks. The stepson of a McCarthy-like senator, actually a Communist, was the primary target. The term has become a familiar one over the years. I saw the original as a kid, and still feel Angela Lansbury as the original evil mom, actually outdid Meryl Streep in the remake. Updating took something away from the original, which was very much of its time.

[Crunchy Frog]

45. I thought the original was by far the better movie.

[Hum]

25. The Sinatra Version was Great

Didn't even bother with the sequel.

[longship]

29. Donald, why don't you play a game of solitaire?

[Stand and Fight]

55. It wasn't a sequel. It was a re-imaging. Very good actually.

[Hum]

69. My Bad

It was, indeed, a remake. But I still have no interest in seeing it.

[longship]

32. Here:

"Donald Trump is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life."

Film fans will know that quote.

[lark]

9. I think it could be even worse than that.

I can think of so many worse scenarios, like he devastates the world's economy to the point that banks close and lights to go. OR, what if the military, lead by his hand picked goons, do a coup to take over the government, the constitution is abrogated and we are declared Trumpland with Drumpf being dictator for life?

[CrispyQ]

67. He's already implied he'll be prez for 8 years.

His explanation for not sitting in on the PDB: “I’m, like, a smart person. I don’t need to be told the same thing and the same words every single day for the next eight years.”

Not even a hesitation or backpedal on that - just I'm gonna be here for 8 years.

We're fucked.

[pangaia]

10. All of this has worried me for weeks.

Especially the last 2 points--

Mass people-power demonstrations? He orders the military to do something illegal and we have disobedience by the national security state? 8/

Or, alternatively, overt intimidation of critics by Trump gangs? Don't call this silly -- tell me how this ends. 9/

Plus his own private Waffen SS and all the violence-loving, self-hating, ignorant gun-toting assholes. (Not the law-abiding, sane gun owners - the other guys!)

[CrispyQ]

11. I believe this election was a turning point for this country - one we may not come back from.

Certainly not in my lifetime. The GOP is set to do unthinkable damage - to our safety net, our rights, our Commons, everything good & fine in this country, they are going to take a wreaking ball to.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

14. I pretty much am doing what I can to spread info...and trying not to think about

the Big Dark Coming.

[True_Blue]

53. Decades & decades of progress destroyed

Once the safety nets are slashed, we'll be in the next great depression within a year or 2. Very possibly in the 4th reich as well.

[bdamomma]

12. we cannot let this happen

we need to call our senators no matter what we think they will do, we are defending our own country from a madman. We must not remain silent or do this

[NewJeffCT]

13. I don't think the GOP has the guts to impeach Trump

He could give Putin a blow job during the State of the Union on live TV and the GOP would just issue some harshly worded statements and do nothing.

That said, if they do find a spine and impeach Trump, I'd be OK with President Pence. Trump, for all his faults, is a ratings bonanza for TV and the media fawns all over him. Pence has far less charisma and he won't be able to captivate the media outside of Fox News and RW talk radio like Herr Trump. So, Pence would likely go down to an ignominious defeat in 2020. I would just hope that Ruth Bader Ginsberg can make it through another 4.5 to 5 more years.

[bdamomma]

37. State of the Union???

Do you really except that from this POS? That is over.

[mopinko]

62. he'll be tweeting it.

[MountainFool]

15. This is how it ends ...

It ends with ...

- Trump doing something over-the-top stupid that scares all of the big money.
- Wall Street goes into a total PANIC and the market drops ... a lot.
- Republicans remove him from office. Either by 25th amendment or impeachment.

The GOP will not act until after a market crash, no matter the provocation.

If Trump protects himself first (e.g. martial law), we're hosed.

[BainsBane]

16. I do hold voters responsible

Because they did vote for him and in effect did choose authoritarianism.

[Javaman]

17. I think if trump was impeached and pence was crowned king...

pence wouldn't have any credibility either.

he's just as think into this bullshit as the orange jerk.

[northoftheborder]

18. Thank God for Professional Tennis....

.....to take my mind off this insanity....the news just gets worse and worse.... I'm already not watching any cable channels except Tennis Channel....NOT being sarcastic

Sorry - but my blood pressure can deal with the latest news about once a day only...

[WiffenPoof]

56. Being a tennis fan myself...

...the Tennis Channel is my saving grace.

[Hekate]

20. Krugman has been my Voice of Sanity and Reason since I discovered him during Dubya's admin

When HE starts sounding the trumpets of doom, we are indeed in deepest shit.

Ugh. I went to the link and saw all those hostile posts against Krugman. It's going to be a long time, if ever, before the MAGA-hats see Trump for the con man he is.

[highplainsdem]

72. Agree completely about Krugman.

[Desert grandma]

22. Be prepared to leave the country if necessary...

Spouse and I renewed our passports and are getting kids passports now. We will go to Panama or Mexico. In addition it is possible to purchase citizenship in Dominica for 100K per person I understand. They allow you to keep US citizenship so you would have dual citizenship. It is also possible to do the same in Malta, but costs more. Senior citizens can take advantage of very generous retirement visas for Panama and Mexico. Those who can afford to purchase this kind of insurance will undoubtedly do so. Very scary to think about the darkness approaching our country.

[47of74]

30. Yeah mine's due next year

I'm going to renew as soon as possible.

[ymetca]

39. If you are unable to fight for your country

then I'll give you a pass. But otherwise, you appear to be just a coward.

This isn't going overseas to fight in some misbegotten war to enrich the ruling class. This is right here in my own backyard. I was born here, and I plan to die here. And die fightin' if I have to.

They can pry my country from my cold, dead hands...

[Lucky Luciano]

42. Trouble is if we eventually win, we still have to live in the same country as all the white trash.

[sarah FAILIN]

50. white trash?

Might as well leave now, right? I used to hear that term a lot, but I've stopped associating with people that think like that.

[Lucky Luciano]

51. Hard not to think that way about trumpers.

I have judged them and I do look down at them. Truly.

[sarah FAILIN]

59. Where I'm from that is just like the N word

You can judge Trump supporters without bringing race into the equation. Trumpers, Trumplodytes, Trumpettes...

It's not just offensive to poor white people, using that term is a red flag to all races because if one would call someone white trash in front of a person of a different race, what would one call a black or Asian person they didn't like behind their back ?

JMO

[Hekate]

76. Really really spot on

[Hekate]

75. wtf?

[Lucky Luciano]

78. trumpers are garbage.

[MarvinGardens]

47. I am with you! (nt)

[Loge23]

64. What country?

The one that incarcerates more of it's own citizens than any other developed nation?
The one with infrastructure unimproved from the 1950's?
The one with that denies health care for it's own citizens?
The one whose education systems ranks 29th in the world?
Shall I go on, comparing the richest nation in the world to others?

If we take to the streets, they will kill us. That is if the lunatics with guns don't get us first.
I applaud your passion for what we were, but it's difficult to see a way out of this with the populace so totally brain-numbed.

So many of us are simply too old and too tired to fight. We expected a progressive country of people truly united to be the best and to restore the better elements of a true democracy. But hatred and racism are rampant. Stupidity and ignorance are the nation's virtues now.
A coward and a pragmatist are separated by who is too scared to learn the truth and who is truly terrified by the truth.

[Hekate]

74. What part of "grandma" don't you understand? Who are you to call any one a coward?

How dare you?

[CanonRay]

26. I'll tell you now it ends; badly.

I see no good outcome. Best hope; they impeach Trump and install Pence (interrupted by extreme vomiting) before Dingbat can start a war.

[brush]

79. Don't know where the impeach trump idea came from, but that's not going to happen

Last edited Sun Jan 8, 2017, 02:04 PM - Edit history (2)

McConnell and Ryan are plotting right now to work around him.

They'll let him "play" president, get Putin to keep complimenting him, make ceremonial appearances, be content with tweeting stupid shit about Arnold and arm-twist him into a dumbed-down presidential briefing every week or so while they proceed to dismantle the safety net in place since FDR and LBJ.

No, they have no need to impeach him — it'll be kinda like the last Reagan years when he was fading into dementia and Nancy and Baker and Schultz were running the country.

Ivanka will be the new Nancy.

Melania will stay in NYC because it's become pretty apparent that she welcomes the separation from his Orangeship. I mean think about it, what woman wouldn't want the prestige of living in the White House with First Lady status and a staff and everything that goes with it? Something is definitely up in that relationship. Or should I say something is down in that relationship?

[CanonRay]

82. I agree, it's 100-1 or worse

that was my "best" case scenario.

[BSdetect]

27. Any "impeachment" may be impossible given the drivel written process

With "writing letters" to and fro taking 7 days (from the days of horses) etc

Its a deeply flawed Constitution re impeachment.

It would end up dragging through courts as that is a drumph specialty. No doubt he would sue Congress too.

[McCamy Taylor]

31. "Tell me how this ends"

Bill Gates knew how it will end when he said that Trump reminds him of JFK. There is only one possible outcome at this point.

[phoneman38]

38. He still doesn't acknowledge the obvious!

Even after being briefed by the greatest intelligence minds we have in this country, he STILL cannot bring himself to say, "These guys are right and I've got it wrong." The best he can do is say everyone from everywhere is always trying to hack into everything in this country. THIS is so very, very scary when our future C-in-C will not believe the conclusive evidence that our intelligence agencies are showing him. I don't know if he realizes that the CIA's primary mission is to advise the President on matters of national security and he chooses to insult them. He is a corrupt and morally bankrupt individual. One cannot believe a word that comes out of his mouth starting with the birther nonsense up to and including not following through on disclosing "what-he-knows-that-no-one-else-knows." What I am wondering is when will his duped supporters finally see him for what he really is, a con man. The likelihood of him resigning is probably slim, the likelihood of him being impeached is a better bet with Pence becoming president. None of this gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling or helps me sleep at night.

[bdamomma]

40. K&R

[Ilsa]

44. My fear is most people will give up

on government, leading to chaos, crime, and eventually, the destruction of the US as a united country.

[SylviaD]

48. There MUST be a way...

...to delay or postpone the inauguration until this can be more closely investigated. There has to be something that can be done, some procedural handbrake we can apply!

[colorado_ufo]

54. Trump already has a lot of generals in place

in case of any civilian uprising.

[oasis]

57. Krugman has got it right. nt

[DLevine]

58. Our country is under attack, from without and within.

The election of Trump is a threat to our very existence. This is not business as usual.

Btw, I encourage DUers to consider using the upside down flag as an avatar as long as we are under this threat. It is not a sign of disrespect, it signals distress. I think it sends a strong message acknowledging the danger we face as a country.

[bdamomma]

73. An upside down

flag should not only be an avatar it should be displayed out in the open!!!

That would get attention.

[BSdetect]

60. K&R

[colsohlibgal]

63. This Is Uncharted Water

So it is really hard to get a handle on how this plays out.

I remain stunned that enough people willingly voted for this immature bully to make it close enough that Crosscheck and Putin could put him over the top....at least electorally. Of course there is another problem namely that Wyoming has more clout than places like Califirnia with way, way more folks. Someone who wins by about 3 million votes and loses.....only in America.

We need to stay vigilant and engaged, maybe mixed in with heavy drinking.

This could go a number of different ways let's hope it goes one of the good ways.

[GliderGuider]

71. How this ends...

Another Civil War?
A replay of the French Revolution?
A trip through time to Germany in 1933?
Assassination?
A military coup?
WWIII?

None of the options seem terribly appetizing.

This ends very, very badly.

[marybourg]

80. A military coup would not surprise me. nt.