Killer Is Proud American Gun Owner

[SoCalMusicLover]

Just look at the picture with his finger sticking out to resemble a gun. How American of him.

[yallerdawg]

1. Just another American gun owner...

showing us exactly why they want guns!

[sarisataka]

8. So all American gun owners

are just like this turd?

[yallerdawg]

10. The problem is...

how am I to know which gun owner is the next turd?

You can give me no assurance, there is no form, there is no test, there is no guarantee.

[sarisataka]

11. No one

can give anyone any assurance on anything.

To take yesterday's story, can you assure me an AA acquaintance is not planning to kidnap and torture me? Since I cannot be sure of that extremely unlikely occurrence should I treat all POC as potential torturers?

Judging any group by the actions of a minute subset of the group is ludicrous.

[yallerdawg]

14. I live in the Deep Red South...

and you just trotted out about the most racist shit I have ever heard lately.

Did you think that up yourself or is it already a rightwing/NRA talking point?

And - I'm through with you now.

[sarisataka]

16. Not sure how you make that connection...

the point is I do not fear any POC. I do not believe those four represent ANY community of people besides themselves. The color of their skin did not cause their actions, it was some rotting potion of their brains.

I fought two wars in the Middle East. I have no fear of people born there, nor any followers of Islam. They did their duty, I did mine. The radicals among them are just that- radicals.

Similarly as this person was a gun owner, he represents himself, no other person, race, creed, color, religion...

Therefore I do not fear anyone based on the actions of an individual

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

33. This

[Hortensis]

35. This.

[pablo_marmol]

72. YUP! THIS! NT

[NutmegYankee]

73. Best response in this whole thread.

[HAB911]

82. wrestling with a pig, you gonna get muddy..........n/t

[Marengo]

20. Just like you can give us no assurance any vehicle operator isn't the next Mohamed Lahouaiej-Bouhlel

[yallerdawg]

22. False equivalencies are rightwing talking points.

I truly expect better on a Democratic blog, but it is the internet...

[Marengo]

26. Collective indictments, such as you articulated in post #1, are a right wing characteristic.

Might want to reflect on that before continuing this exchange.

[Hortensis]

37. Right wing and radical left.

Yallerdawg, Marengo's basically right. The big-brush hostility and intolerance of your posts are typical of both the hard-core right and the radical left, not liberals. Sorry to say such a shocking thing to any DUer, but true.

[yallerdawg]

46. You should check out our 2016 Democratic Party Platform.

The hardcore right represented by the Gungeon views here at DU are not liberal Democratic values.

My argument is we need to establish vigorous standards on gun ownership. and what kinds of guns we want our fellow travelers to possess, and where they can possess them.

These DU'ers here oppose any limits or criticisms of gun rights and gun ownership responsibility to the rest of us.

I question anyone's desire to own a gun - I don't have that right, or the right to say so?

[Hortensis]

49. You can question courteously.

[Marengo]

52. The Party platform condemns every American gun owner as desiring to be mass killer?

[yallerdawg]

56. When you go to buy a gun...

tell me you don't have a desire to shoot something - and deep down inside you know, if the situation justifies it, you will shoot people with that gun.

That is where we start.

And on occasion we have individuals who have nothing but the desire to shoot people, and we can't stop them from legally purchasing a gun to do exactly that.

And that is just tough luck?

The Party Platform supports steps to make us safer.

[Marengo]

63. The majority of American gun owners have a desire to shoot people?

[yallerdawg]

64. The majority of Americans own guns for protection.

If they had no desire to shoot someone, they wouldn't buy a gun (or guns).

They buy them for protection, self-defense, general fearfulness, stand-your-ground principles. Any old reason...

[Marengo]

83. They have a strong feeling of wishing for that to happen?

[Marengo]

103. Post #83 is patiently awaiting an answer.

[cwydro]

105. I live in the country.

We have guns for a reason.

Some varmint comes after my chickens, it will be shot.

[EX500rider]

34. How is a mass killer in a truck a "false equivalency" to a mass killer with a gun?

They both used widely available items for their rampage, the truck was more deadly of course..

[yagotme]

39. Doesn't fit his narrative.

The gun itself is evil, not the truck. The owner of the gun absorbs the evil from the gun, and does heinous acts. The truck driver, well, he probably had his reasons.

[yallerdawg]

43. Yeah, we need to have "Truck Violence" websites...

keeping track of all the truck violence in America.

You can start.

[yagotme]

45. Thanks for the permission. Can cars count, too?

http://articles.latimes.com/1999/may/04/news/mn-33798

[yallerdawg]

61. I can beat that!

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/past-tolls

Not counting suicides, since "so many" don't consider shooting yourself to be "gun violence."

[yagotme]

112. Don't see any US vehicle assaults there.

Thought that's what we were counting, per your upthread post.

[yallerdawg]

41. You seriously consider guns and vehicles to be equivalent?

[EX500rider]

44. No I do not, I think trucks are more dangerous in the hands of a mass killer.

[guillaumeb]

51. Guns are specifically designed to kill.

Not so with vehicles.

[Marengo]

54. And yet a vehicle, used as a weapon, killed 86 in a single event. Fairly effective for something...

Not designed specifically to kill.

[guillaumeb]

87. Which says nothing about intended use, and design intent.

Which was my point.

[Marengo]

104. Design intent is irrelevant from a public safety perspective. Now that has been established that...

Heavy vehicles are an effective choice for committing acts of terrorism, would you support measures to minimize that threat?

[guillaumeb]

109. Again, design intent is the only relevant issue from a public safety perspective.

Guns are designed to kill and to facilitate killing. Any other purpose is subsidiary to that purpose. Target shooting is simply a sublimated form of killing.

[Marengo]

115. And yet 4 more were just killed by something not designed as a weapon being used as a weapon.

I will ask you again, do you support measures to reduce the threat? If so, what kind of measures do you believe would be effective? I noticed you avoided the question last time.

[guillaumeb]

119. You are ignoring my point.

I understand why, but while you are ignoring the point, another 30,000 or so will dies this year due to a firearm being used for its intended purpose. And bought and paid for (by the NRA) politicians will make pretty speeches and do nothing.

[Marengo]

120. How about answering my question? What am I to infer from your refusal to do so?

[guillaumeb]

121. You might infer whatever you wish to infer.

And I might infer from your NRA-style responses that you are opposed to any regulation of firearms.

[Marengo]

122. And now you may post a link to where I've said such a thing, or retract. If you have the integrity.

[guillaumeb]

123. Your posts in this thread attempting to equate vehicles with firearms

are ample evidence.

I have both integrity and reading ability.

[Marengo]

124. You have neither apparently. I'll ask you again for a link to where I have indicated I am...

"Opposed to any regulation of firearms".

[guillaumeb]

125. Perhaps this will help?

When I said:

And I might infer from your NRA-style responses that you are opposed to any regulation of firearms.

I used the conditional might, rather than a declarative sentence.

[Marengo]

126. Not accepting that, it's too specific and cannot be reasonable deduced from the content of my...

Posts in this thread. I'll ask you once again to post a link or cite to a post I've made on DU in which such a position can be reasonably deduced.

[guillaumeb]

127. You may accept or not, but my use of the conditional clearly

refutes your attempted point.

[Marengo]

128. No, it does not for the reason I articulated. There is no probability that such a position can be...

Deduced from my posts in this thread. Link, cite to where it can be or retract.

[malaise]

116. That simple n/t

[pablo_marmol]

74. Cheapest of "arguments".

Guns are specifically designed to kill.

Right. Let's not look at what guns actually do. Let's carp about what they're designed to do......when the truth of the matter is that the vast majority of guns are used to punch holes/ping targets. Appeal to emotion is all you have, and all you'll ever have.

[guillaumeb]

88. Obviously your emotions were triggered.

Actually, 30,000 people die from gun usage each and every year. And the mania with which the NRA pursues its apparent aim of allowing guns to be literally everywhere in the country means that there are far more opportunities for guns to be used in public places.

And this push for more guns in more places does not make anyone safer, the claimed motivation, but it does ensure large profits for the weapons manufacturers.

Perhaps you could explain to the 30,000 families that they are simply being emotional. I am certain that they would appreciate your argument for what it is.

[pablo_marmol]

92. More childishness and dishonesty. Such a surprise!!!

Obviously your emotions were triggered.

Uh huh. A simple counter is evidence that "my emotions were triggered". Yet your response doesn't indicate that your emotions were triggered.

Actually, 30,000 people die from gun usage each and every year.

Always with the 30,000! 30,000! 30,000! – while dishonestly/childishly suppressing the fact that gun violence is HALF of what it was in 1993 and the number of guns in the country has risen dramatically – along with the prevalence of concealed carry.

And the mania with which the NRA pursues its apparent aim of allowing guns to be literally everywhere in the country…………

Oregon and Washington, and perhaps some east coast states allowed their citizens the right of concealed carry long before the “gun happy” states of Texas and Arizona did. This childish shrieking about the NRA at every turn just makes us look stupid. But hey, I’m sure you’re thrilled about the fact that Chuck Schumer wants to keep losing elections by keeping “gun control” <SNORT> front and center!

And this push for more guns in more places does not make anyone safer…….

Dishonesty via shifting the burden of proof. Regardless of whether or not anyone is safer, it’s up to the gun restriction supporters to demonstrate that mo gunz makes the nation less safe. And that will never happen. Texas and Florida keep track of the behavior of concealed carry permit holders – and the numbers are not good for The Controllers. Not to mention the fact that concealed carry has swept the nation, and street-level police officers who support the practice vastly outnumber those who don't.

Perhaps you could explain to the 30,000 families that they are simply being emotional. I am certain that they would appreciate your argument for what it is.

And again with the childishness. Perhaps you’d like to explain why a “progressive” such as yourself would deny the right to self-defense to women and senior citizens. Explain to people who have been protected by guns why you want to deny them protection in the future. Explain why a number of liberal criminologists don’t sign off on the Democratic Party platform on gun violence. And explain why even your almighty CDC now concedes that defensive gun use is common.

[guillaumeb]

94. "Childish shrieking"? More evidence that your emotions have been triggered?

Your points:

Actually, 30,000 people die from gun usage each and every year.

Your only 30,000 argument is perhaps something you could explain to the 30,000 families that are devastated by gun deaths each year.

And the mania with which the NRA pursues its apparent aim of allowing guns to be literally everywhere in the country…………

You conceded this point by not even attempting to debate it.

And this push for more guns in more places does not make anyone safer…….

An obvious point that, again, you do not attempt to debate.

Perhaps you could explain to the 30,000 families that they are simply being emotional. I am certain that they would appreciate your argument for what it is.

You offer the mythical guns are protection argument, but if guns were protection no gun carrier would ever be killed. This argument is related to the good guy with a gun argument that the NRA loves to advance even though mass shootings continue even in areas like Dallas where there actually were numerous citizens carrying. In Dallas, the many armed citizens ran from the shots and obstructed police efforts because the police were obliged to check out all of these so-called armed patriots to see if they were, in fact, the shooter.

[pablo_marmol]

96. Dodge, dodge, and more dodge.

Your only 30,000 argument is perhaps something you could explain to the 30,000 families that are devastated by gun deaths each year.

You had no response to my statement that gun violence has dropped while the number of guns in the nation has increased. Shocker. Appeal to intellect is impossible with you folks.

You conceded this point by not even attempting to debate it.

Logic fail. Some "points" don't even dignify a response. The NRA does not believe that guns should be "literally" everywhere. Literally? Really? Cite to evidence. I'm no fan of the NRA, but telling stupid, obvious lies doesn't win us elections.

You offer the mythical guns are protection argument.......

And you dodged my comment about the CDC acknowledging that they're not mythical at all:

Defensive uses of guns are common:

“Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year…in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008.” (emphasis added)

http://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/1

If I'm of the mood to play more dodgeball with you later, I'll do so. Right now I've got better things to do.

Edited to correct copy/paste fumble.

[guillaumeb]

97. More surveys about defensive use?

Given the absence of actual evidence, I suppose your surveys are the best you can do.

Again, a nice repetition of NRA talking points but that is no comfort to the 30,000 gun death victims each year.

Perhaps the CDC could investigate gun violence and the link to more shootings and the proliferation of guns in public? Well no. Actually, courtesy of the NRA, it is illegal for the CDC to do so.

Do not believe me?

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-gun-research-funding-20160614-snap-story.html

After you do your better things, perhaps you should read a bit of the above link and do a bit more research. Actual facts would serve you better than insulting language.

[ileus]

55. You're right....it's goofy, guns are supposed to save lives.

[samir.g]

101. They all have the potential

[sarisataka]

106. Your point?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. Who? What killer?

[TrekLuver]

4. The Ft. Lauderdale Airport Shootings...happened today

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

6. Thanks - been out all day; just heard about it.

Which is why it's helpful to have context...

[Iggo]

3. Gunfuckers unite!

[malaise]

5. listen that kid was in the National Guard

Last edited Fri Jan 6, 2017, 07:35 PM - Edit history (1)

He was military - his family says he has mental issues - I suspect PTSD. I don't know how many tours he was sent on - do you?
maybe the time has come to address the neglect of people serving and veterans rather than the privatization of Veteran's Care.

[AC_Mem]

18. Smartest post I've seen in awhile

The answer is to HELP the VA, not gut the VA. The majority of the issues stem from underfunding.

[malaise]

19. Precisely

I have a nephew who was in Iraq - they ignore the damage done to so many while pushing their meme of the moment

[yagotme]

47. Here's to hoping he does well and comes back safe. n/t

[pablo_marmol]

75. Yup. But blaming guns is what we do best. NT

[ElkeH]

25. I think I heard ten months in Iraq

Combat engineer. But who knows how many horrible things he saw and experienced in those ten months. Of course things might have turned out differently with a knife rather than a gun, that does not change the fact many veterans are not receiving the care they deserve.

[malaise]

78. One of my nephews was in Iraq

He will never be the kid he was before

[ElkeH]

79. Yet the chickenhawks

Will never have to suffer the consequences

Sending kids to war is alright as long as they aren't their kids.

[oneshooter]

89. My nephew did 5 tours in Iraq, my son did one in Afganistan and one in Kuwait.

I did two in the RVN. My father served 3 years in Korea. Speak not of things you know nothing about.

[ElkeH]

90. I don't understand

I was talking about conservative politicians who push for war but have nothing to lose from that war while regular people have to put their lives on the line.

[oneshooter]

118. That is not how I read it.

[samir.g]

102. A ticking time bomb that went off

[Hoyt]

7. Responsible gun owner until they kill a bunch of innocents.

?

[yagotme]

40. Responsible truck driver,

until he crashed into bunch of innocents.

[Hoyt]

48. Gun fanciers train to shoot and intimidate people.

[yagotme]

50. Cite on both? n/t

[Hoyt]

57. LMAO -- Here are a few out of thousands.

[yagotme]

111. I see people training to shoot,

but where are the ones being intimidated? I did ask for a cite for both, remember.

[Hoyt]

113. Gunners stick a gun on their hip for it's intimidation value, well and as a compensator.

[yagotme]

114. Nearly all states started with concealed carry. Concealed means concealed.

Last edited Sun Jan 8, 2017, 06:03 PM - Edit history (1)

If it's being done for intimidation, then it wouldn't be concealed. Logic fail.

[Maine-ah]

9. a friend of mine was at the airport

standing next to a man who got shot in the head. She, her husband, and kids, are on vacation.

http://knox.villagesoup.com/p/updated-warren-family-safe-after-florida-airport-shooting/1612394?cid=3575728#.WHADxs-zm8o.facebook

[haele]

12. Horrible. Peace to your friend.

It's something you never forget.

Haele

[malaise]

117. Just like the kids we send to war

They don't forget either

[madinmaryland]

13. Another responsible gun owner until he wasn't. nt

[pablo_marmol]

95. Another cliche that does **nothing** to advance the dialog. NT

[madinmaryland]

99. Oh, FFS. How the fuck am I supposed to determine who is responsible and who

could become irresponsible. If I see a guy wandering around in a grocery store with his assault weapon slung over his shoulder, what the fuck am I supposed to think? If he's white he's a good guy, and if he's not white...

[friendly_iconoclast]

108. It's not up to you to 'determine' anything- if it's legal, MYOB. If not, leave and call 911

[melman]

15. Yeah

I don't think that's what that finger is meant to convey.


[img][/img]


That's an ISIS salute.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISIS'_index_finger_signal

[yallerdawg]

59. The 'Finger gun' salute.

Trigger pulled and on the hammer. Seems apropos.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger_gun

[melman]

67. Right

lolol

[yallerdawg]

68. i know where you got this ISIS thing.

But the story is changing now.

The man accused of shooting five people to death Friday at Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood International Airport walked into an FBI office two months ago in a "very agitated state" and told agents the government had taken over his mind, law enforcement sources said.

Esteban Santiago, 26, came to the FBI's Anchorage, Alaska, office and was "acting crazy," telling agents he was being subjected to mind control. He was committed to a psychiatric hospital as a danger to himself or others, the sources said.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/details-emerge-of-suspect-in-fort-lauderdale-airport-shootings/ar-BBxZ21z?li=BBnb7Kz

[melman]

69. The picture shows what it shows

You want it to show something else, this is DU so that is expected, but it shows what it shows.

[putitinD]

17. Registered Republican, I bet!

[SQUEE]

21. "sticking out to resemble a gun"

take that up with Islam. It is to symbolize the single one true God.

A shorthand for the Shahada, and specificly the first line, the Tahlil.
"There is no god but Allah. Muhammad is the messenger of Allah."

[grossproffit]

30. Good luck with that one around here.

[HoneyBadger]

58. Or he is saying that he really needs to pee

[ChazII]

86. I heard that as well. Islam does not have

the trinity. Thank you for sharing this information.

[sarah FAILIN]

23. He is a mentally ill war vet

I want gun control for the mentally ill, but it kinda makes me mad to see a mentally ill person being politicized in this way, even though what he did was terrible. Why not take the time to encourage mental health help for people instead of the comments about him being American? I almost feel like it's a dirty word the way the post sounds. This guy went to the FBI himself and told them he was being forced to fight for Isis. If that isn't a cry for help, I font know what is.



http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2017/01/ft_lauderdale_airport_shooting_suspect_he_went_to.html

[MineralMan]

24. And here I thought he was a mentally ill

former military member. Oddly, were it not for many, many Americans with guns, you might have grown up speaking Japanese or German. Many millions of Americans own firearms. Only an incredibly small percentage of them ever use them in violent ways against others.

We need much better control over who owns firearms. No question. But your blanket damming if those who do is misplaced, I think.

[Crunchy Frog]

36. It's my understanding that those Americans with guns were in well regulated military units.

I may be wrong about that.

[MineralMan]

38. And very many of those are firearms

Owners in civilian life, too. Some are even proud if being veterans an firearms owners, too.

[Crunchy Frog]

42. I'm sure they are, but I doubt that their being gun owners in civilian life

Has anything to do with my not speaking Japanese or German.

[X_Digger]

27. Swing and a miss. Try isis salute. n/t

[ck4829]

71. Try confirmation bias.

[X_Digger]

80. Google "isis finger sign". Derp. n/t

[grossproffit]

28. His finger is representative of The one, There is no god but Allah.

It's not a gun gesture.

[Warpy]

31. He's also a nutter who hears voices in his head

The man has been screaming for help since he got out of the service.

Maybe if he'd gotten it, five people would still be alive.

[HAB911]

84. That will never happen with the VA dismanteling......n/t

[REP]

32. American??

Yeah. Sure.

[ileus]

53. When will we finally admit guns kill people!

[HoneyBadger]

60. a few do

99.99% do not....

[jonno99]

65. Has someone stated otherwise?

Of course without a willing human being, a gun is another inert tool.

The killer today? Another ISIS recruit it appears. And guns or no guns they are keen on killing.

When will we finally admit that?

[HAB911]

85. Guns don't kill people

toddlers kill people

https://mic.com/articles/142348/in-2016-toddlers-have-killed-more-people-in-the-us-than-muslim-terrorists-have

[jonno99]

66. Simply Google: 'ISIS one finger salute pictures' - and see if anything looks familiar.

Warning - the results are disturbing

[ck4829]

70. Oh my God... Margaret Thatcher is a secret Muslim fundamentalist!?

Was she the first Daesh operative?

https://www.google.com/search?q=margaret+thatcher+finger&biw=1366&bih=657&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiTz9i6zq_RAhXLwVQKHYgpA2UQ_AUIBigB

That does look familiar.

[spin]

77. Yes you are right some of the results are disturbing. However ...

the airport shooter does look like he is giving the ISIS one finger salute in the picture in the OP.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

76. Not all gun owners are bad people, obviously, but I wish we had stricter gun regulations...

like Germany. (I like their universal free healthcare too! An 8% tax on income, as I understand it.)

https://www.thelocal.de/20160616/five-things-to-know-about-guns-in-germany-us-gun-control-laws

(snip)

To get a gun, Germans must first obtain a firearms ownership license (Waffenbesitzkarte) - and you may need a different one for each weapon you buy - or a license to carry (Waffenschein).

Applicants for a license must be at least 18 years old and undergo what’s called a reliability check, which includes checking for criminal records, whether the person is an alcohol or drug addict, whether they have mental illness or any other attributes that might make them questionable to authorities.

The also have to pass a “specialized knowledge test” on guns and people younger than 25 applying for their first license must go through a psychiatric evaluation.

One must also prove a specific and approved need for the weapon, which is mainly limited to use by hunters, competitive marksmen, collectors and security workers - not for self-defence.

Once you have a license, you’re also limited in the number of and kinds of guns you may own, depending on what kind of license you have: Fully automatic weapons are banned for all, while semiautomatic firearms are banned for anything other than hunting or competitive shooting...

(snip)

But even given Germany’s strict gun policies, the country was still home to the fourth-highest number of legal guns per capita in 2013, falling behind just the United States, Switzerland and Finland...

(snip)

But even given the relatively high amount of guns in the country, Germany has one of the lowest rates of gun-related deaths each year, according to international GunPolicy.org research by the University of Sydney.

Over the past 20 years, “crimes against life” - which include murder as well as negligent manslaughter - that involve guns have dropped from 783 in 1995 to 130 in 2015, according to the Federal Criminal Police Office (BKA).

Of those crimes last year, just 57 were intentional murders.

This of course pales in comparison to the rates in the US, where firearm homicides surpass 11,000 people killed each year or roughly 3.5 deaths per 100,000 people, according to GunPolicy.org.

[Calculating]

98. You're not allowed to own a gun for self defense?

How the hell are you supposed to defend yourself then?

[Buckeye_Democrat]

100. I assume that Germans who want a gun for that reason...

make up an excuse to get one, like hunting.

[ck4829]

81. This thread is one of the most confusing things I have seen on the internet

And quite possibly the most disheartening thing I have on this site.

It's surreal though, it's as though there are two threads here in one. One where people suggest he was mentally ill, that he was hearing voices. I'm not doubting it, but it's becoming a dime a dozen. The other thread in here, people are suggesting he's a Daesh operative with him pointing a finger being some sort of salute. The other places making a big deal about him... pointing a finger also suggest Obama is a secret Muslim... for pointing a finger. Do these two sides see each other?

As to the OP about it being "How American of him", I want to disagree, I really do, but I am starting to think mass shootings and even terrorist attacks are becoming our running of the bulls, except they're random and you can't opt out of them.

[aikoaiko]

91. Yeah, that what proud American gun owners do. Point fingers!

:rolf:

I can't believe you haven't deleted your OP let.

[B2G]

110. Trolling

Not one response since the OP.

[loyalsister]

93. Or, America is a proud killer

So much that people cling to killing as a right. Between stand your ground laws and pervasive gun fetishism, it's clear that a significant number of my fellow citizens feel entitled to kill people as a matter of course in their civilian lives.