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Sun Jan 8, 2017, 11:05 AM

Poor hardworking miners, their troubles are great

After their pathetically jubilant support of Donald Trump and his promises to bring back coal mining jobs, miners are slowly wakening to the fact that a repeal of ACA will make it much more difficult for them to receive black lung benefits and treatment. Before 2009, the burden was on the miners to prove that their carbonized lungs were the result of working in the mines. With the Byrd amendment to the ACA, miners diagnosed with black lung who have worked 15 years or more in the mines are assumed to have contracted their disease through their work, a common-sense provision that greatly eased obtaining benefits. Buyer's remorse, the most common side-effect of voting against your own best interests. Poor miners.

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Reply Poor hardworking miners, their troubles are great (Original post)
cyclonefence Jan 2017 OP
InAbLuEsTaTe Jan 2017 #1
Horse with no Name Jan 2017 #21
InAbLuEsTaTe Jan 2017 #84
AgadorSparticus Jan 2017 #2
femmocrat Jan 2017 #4
cyclonefence Jan 2017 #11
Coventina Jan 2017 #13
cyclonefence Jan 2017 #16
Coventina Jan 2017 #17
cyclonefence Jan 2017 #20
Coventina Jan 2017 #24
SlimJimmy Jan 2017 #32
Coventina Jan 2017 #33
SlimJimmy Jan 2017 #61
Coventina Jan 2017 #63
SlimJimmy Jan 2017 #64
Coventina Jan 2017 #65
SlimJimmy Jan 2017 #68
Coventina Jan 2017 #69
SlimJimmy Jan 2017 #70
Coventina Jan 2017 #72
SlimJimmy Jan 2017 #73
AgadorSparticus Jan 2017 #80
SlimJimmy Jan 2017 #92
AgadorSparticus Jan 2017 #95
Coventina Jan 2017 #96
AgadorSparticus Jan 2017 #98
SlimJimmy Jan 2017 #101
Dark n Stormy Knight Jan 2017 #89
cyclonefence Jan 2017 #103
Dark n Stormy Knight Jan 2017 #107
cyclonefence Jan 2017 #108
Dark n Stormy Knight Jan 2017 #111
Horse with no Name Jan 2017 #23
Kahuna7 Jan 2017 #58
cyclonefence Jan 2017 #75
potone Jan 2017 #81
cyclonefence Jan 2017 #85
JustAnotherGen Jan 2017 #99
SammyWinstonJack Jan 2017 #26
cyclonefence Jan 2017 #74
montana_hazeleyes Jan 2017 #90
Coventina Jan 2017 #97
cyclonefence Jan 2017 #100
Coventina Jan 2017 #104
DonCoquixote Jan 2017 #27
cyclonefence Jan 2017 #76
hatrack Jan 2017 #29
putitinD Jan 2017 #88
Ilsa Jan 2017 #36
a la izquierda Jan 2017 #40
physioex Jan 2017 #42
LenaBaby61 Jan 2017 #52
a la izquierda Jan 2017 #54
cyclonefence Jan 2017 #77
atreides1 Jan 2017 #46
cyclonefence Jan 2017 #78
femmocrat Jan 2017 #48
treestar Jan 2017 #51
TheDebbieDee Jan 2017 #71
AgadorSparticus Jan 2017 #82
AgadorSparticus Jan 2017 #83
RKP5637 Jan 2017 #37
Bettie Jan 2017 #3
Drahthaardogs Jan 2017 #15
cyclonefence Jan 2017 #18
Horse with no Name Jan 2017 #25
femmocrat Jan 2017 #49
SlimJimmy Jan 2017 #93
Bettie Jan 2017 #28
Coventina Jan 2017 #30
Bettie Jan 2017 #34
RKP5637 Jan 2017 #38
Drahthaardogs Jan 2017 #43
physioex Jan 2017 #44
Drahthaardogs Jan 2017 #47
hatrack Jan 2017 #60
montana_hazeleyes Jan 2017 #91
Drahthaardogs Jan 2017 #94
montana_hazeleyes Jan 2017 #109
Drahthaardogs Jan 2017 #110
cyclonefence Jan 2017 #106
Thinkingabout Jan 2017 #5
physioex Jan 2017 #45
Thinkingabout Jan 2017 #55
Squinch Jan 2017 #6
OrwellwasRight Jan 2017 #7
truebluegreen Jan 2017 #8
cyclonefence Jan 2017 #10
OrwellwasRight Jan 2017 #12
cyclonefence Jan 2017 #19
BSdetect Jan 2017 #9
Vinca Jan 2017 #14
Horse with no Name Jan 2017 #22
onecaliberal Jan 2017 #31
JDC Jan 2017 #35
RKP5637 Jan 2017 #39
JDC Jan 2017 #114
DonCoquixote Jan 2017 #41
Coventina Jan 2017 #50
DonCoquixote Jan 2017 #59
Coventina Jan 2017 #62
Warpy Jan 2017 #53
Buckeye_Democrat Jan 2017 #87
leanforward Jan 2017 #56
Coventina Jan 2017 #66
Squinch Jan 2017 #102
Jake Stern Jan 2017 #57
oasis Jan 2017 #67
fescuerescue Jan 2017 #79
larwdem Jan 2017 #86
Historic NY Jan 2017 #105
Jetboy Jan 2017 #112
cyclonefence Jan 2017 #113

Response to cyclonefence (Original post)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 11:15 AM

1. Wakin' up to morning in America... the nightmare that is the Nazi-Elect has only just begun! (Just want to scream and cry.)

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Response to InAbLuEsTaTe (Reply #1)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 05:34 PM

21. Mourning in Amerikkka. n/t

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Response to Horse with no Name (Reply #21)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 12:56 AM

84. Yep, pretty much sums it up.

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Response to cyclonefence (Original post)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 11:17 AM

2. No crying or whining allowed. They were fully warned.

Now they will have to take responsibility for their actions AND they will need to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps.

They are getting EXACTLY what they wanted.

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Response to AgadorSparticus (Reply #2)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 11:33 AM

4. I agree. nt

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Response to femmocrat (Reply #4)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 04:21 PM

11. So you guys are not interested in trying

to win over these people? I think we dems are better than that.

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Response to cyclonefence (Reply #11)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 04:38 PM

13. Nope. They voted for a lying, racist, misogynist pig. They get what they paid for.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #13)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 05:17 PM

16. I'm afraid a lot of people

feel as you do. I don't see how we are going to take back the government unless we find a way to convince these folks--and racism is imo behind the majority of Trump votes--that we dems care about what they (should) care about. Isolating--shunning--people is not a way to bring them to our way of thinking.

The racism of Trump supporters is appalling and beyond difficult to encounter, but I think we must find a way through conversation, not shouting and condemning, but *talking*, to help them see how wrong they are. The fact that multiracial couples are an everyday sight in TV ads is helpful to our cause; the normalization of interacting as equals with people whose skin color is different from your own ought to be a prime goal of our party.

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Response to cyclonefence (Reply #16)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 05:25 PM

17. I am not *shunning* anyone. THEY are the ones doing the shunning.

They voted for a person who was SHOWN TIME AFTER TIME to be a liar, a sex criminal, a racist, and someone who every day demonstrated that he was stunningly unqualified for the job.

Both Hillary and Bernie were out there EVERY DAY proving him wrong, unqualified, perverted, racist, a misogynist, and putting forth a positive, strong program to move American forward.

Trump was out there every day spouting hate, racism, misogyny, ignorance, filth, and blatant lies. And they flocked to him.

I'm done with those folks. Done. If you can reach them, awesome. I will gladly admit I was wrong that they were unreachable.

But right now, I am too exhausted, frightened, and angry to even think about "reaching out" to people who voted for the KKK's endorsed candidate. They have given every indication that they are after ME and either deporting me or depriving me of my rights as an American citizen.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #17)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 05:33 PM

20. I feel as you do

in the exhausted, frightened and angry department. But I do think that while "shunning" may be a little harsh, when you speak of "I'm done with these folks," it sounds a lot like giving up on them instead of trying to help them see the light.

They did have the opportunity to know how bad Trump was, and they did vote for him regardless. As I see it, our problem is that we have to find a way to reach these people--who ought, save the racism, by all lights to be Dems--rather than refuse to engage with them.

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Response to cyclonefence (Reply #20)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 05:39 PM

24. No, I don't want misogynists, ignoramuses, and gun-humpers in the Democratic party either.

If you are fine with throwing women (more than half the population, BTW) under the bus along with ethnic minorities and Muslims you are going to see a huge exodus from the Democratic party by women.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #17)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 05:51 PM

32. Hyperbole or real fear?

How would they deport you as an American citizen?

They have given every indication that they are after ME and either deporting me or depriving me of my rights as an American citizen.

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Response to SlimJimmy (Reply #32)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 05:54 PM

33. Well, they shouldn't be able to do so. But if you've ever read those mouth-breathers on line, they

want to deport every "treasonous liberal", non-Christian, non-white, uppity woman, etc. etc. to make America "what it was."
(Which it never was, except in their imaginations).

PS: edited to add: and when they find out that Trump CAN'T deport all such people, violence will break out. Of that I am sure. Not widespread civil war or anything, I'm not saying that. But street attacks against non-whites, women, non-Christians, etc. will happen with ever increasing frequency.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #33)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 09:50 PM

61. Well, they can talk about it on line all they want, but reaity is that it can't and won't happen.

I wouldn't worry about them so much as to have it affect your personal life. They are nothing more than background noise, and should be given the amount of concern they deserve. None.

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Response to SlimJimmy (Reply #61)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 09:55 PM

63. I hope you are right. But I really believe their frustrations will boil over into street violence.

Maybe I'm being paranoid, but when I was in high school, a man tried to abduct me on my way home.
When I was in college, I was molested on the street.
Two years ago, a single neighbor of mine was murdered in her house, that crime has yet to be solved.

In past history, my community has seen murders of Sikhs and Buddhists, so.....

An emboldened Trump electorate scares me, quite frankly.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #63)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 09:59 PM

64. Well, I won't dismiss your concerns, but since I'm armed nearly everywhere I go, I might have

a different perspective. I generally don't worry about such things.

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Response to SlimJimmy (Reply #64)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 10:06 PM

65. Gotcha. A gun is a magic wand that erases all potential for harm.

You know, the America we SHOULD be striving to build shouldn't require ordinary citizens to have to carry deadly weapons "everywhere they go."

I suppose that Sikh shopkeeper should have just aimed a gun at every customer coming into his store, because he could never be certain if the next guy coming into his store was coming in intent to kill him because he was "Muslim."

I'm really tired of gun owners having an attitude that at least implies, if not explicitly states, that unarmed people have it coming.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #65)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 10:40 PM

68. I'm a retired law enforcement officer. I've been carryng a weapon for more than 40 years.

I'm not about to stop. But feel free to complain about it.

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Response to SlimJimmy (Reply #68)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 10:50 PM

69. I don't mind you carrying it. What I mind is the attitude that as a 16 year old, biking home from

HS, I should have been packing heat when that guy tried to force me into his truck.

It is not safe nor realistic to think that everyone should be armed at all times, or it's their fault if something happens to them.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #69)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 10:57 PM

70. I get it. I really do. I didn't carry a weapon when I was 16 years old either.

Nor should I have. But I presume you're old enough now to purchase a weapon, train with it until you're proficient, then apply for a permit to carry it. It's not the magic that will always make you safe, but it will certainly give you some options if you're ever confronted. Just my 2 cents.

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Response to SlimJimmy (Reply #70)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 11:12 PM

72. Again: My point is, not everyone is suited to be a warrior. And that's what you have to be to

effectively handle a deadly weapon.

I know what I am, and what I am not.

Another example: A dear friend of mine was married to a prominent politician in another country. Threats were made against her life and his. She applied for a gun, in a country that has much stricter gun control laws. Before they would issue her a permit for a handgun, she had to be interviewed and psychologically profiled. When she was asked point blank if she could kill someone, she answered honestly, "I don't know."

They would not give her a gun permit because she was not absolutely certain she could kill someone else to save her own life.

THAT IS NOT A CHARACTER DEFECT!

This is what irks me so much about attitudes like yours. So many of the "pro-gun" people in my life have an attitude that (as I said earlier) either implies or explicitly states that people who do not carry are at fault if they are victims of violence.

I would think that 40 years in LE would have helped you to understand that.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #72)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 11:35 PM

73. I never said you had a character defect, or even implied it.

I never said or implied that you are at fault if you were/are a victim of a crime of violence. What I did, was give you viable options. It's up to YOU to evaluate them, and then make an informed decision. Don't lay motivations on me that were never there. It's the easy thing to do, but it doesn't help you make a decision based on the facts in front of you.

One thing that you don't seem to understand. Not a single person applying for a permit will be asked if they are willing to "kill" someone. They will be asked if they are willing to use the firearm to defend themselves or another who is in immediate danger of being seriously injured. When a LE officer testifies in court, they never, I repeat NEVER say that they intended to kill anyone. Do you know why? Because their goal was not to "kill" anyone, it was to stop that personal from either harming them or someone else. And THAT is what they testify to. "I fired my weapon to stop that person from seriously injuring me, or I fired my weapon to stop them from seriously injuring someone else."

I'll tell you what "irks" me about attitudes like yours. When someone tries, in a very polite manner, to give you protective options, you go off on an anti-gun rant instead of trying to evaluate the advice.

Well, good luck. I sincerely hope you are never the victim of further physical harm. But based on what appears to be a pretty irrational fear, you might consider staying indoors for the foreseeable future.



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Response to SlimJimmy (Reply #32)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 12:09 AM

80. Being "legal" actually means being white.

I work worth someone who actually thinks that the U.S. needs to deport EVERY non white person because AMERICA needs to go back to its white roots.

I. Shit. You. Not.

So, today they may not go after me because I am a citizen. But who knows what will happen when we go down that slippery slope.

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Response to AgadorSparticus (Reply #80)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 07:37 AM

92. Wow, that's a scary thought. Not that they will actually deport citizens, but that

you think it could eventually happen based on the opinion of some random white bigot.

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Response to SlimJimmy (Reply #92)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 08:37 AM

95. You think she is the only one to think like this? How do you think trump got to where he is?

Look. Around. You. You think this is normal? The PEOTUS tweets his agenda. The PEOTUS has how many millions in debt to how many companies. He is known to be connected to the mob. He is named in an actual pedophile case. He had not released his tax returns. He wants to build a wall to keep out Mexicans, deport all Islams, and feels he can grab whatever pussy he wants. He is in tight with our enemy, the Russians. He uses Hitler's play book. The list goes on and on and on.

He is a racist, xenophobic, misogynistic, greedy, pathological, fascist motherfucker.

And yet, you think I am crazy for thinking they will deport citizens.

It says A LOT about you, though...

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Response to AgadorSparticus (Reply #95)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 09:43 AM

96. Don't waste your time on that one. Because I pointed out that guns are not the answer,

I was accused of going on an "anti-gun" rant.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #96)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 09:47 AM

98. Thanks for the heads up, coventina.

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Response to AgadorSparticus (Reply #95)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 11:34 AM

101. Calm down and listen carefully. He will not deport citizens.

He has no legal right or power to do so. Only Congress my enact legislation that would allow that. Not.going.to.happen.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #17)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 03:32 AM

89. I think you left out "liar and cheat."

Of course that didn't bother them as long as they thought it was other people he was lying to and cheating.

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Reply #89)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 11:41 AM

103. I am genuinely stunned

by what I found when I searched Obamacare/Affordable Care confusion. Apparently the Republicans successfully allowed voters to believe that Obamacare was *bad* and the ACA, through which they got their insurance, was *good.*

How did we Dems drop the ball on this? They didn't even have to lie about anything, just consistently talk about "Obamacare (bad)."

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Response to cyclonefence (Reply #103)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 03:38 PM

107. The RW are consummate masters of propaganda and we have not

done even a half-decent job of counteracting the lies they put out there. This is a bull that must be taken by the horns unequivocally.

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Reply #107)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 06:20 PM

108. Yeah, but how?

I'm with you 100%, but how to convince people that what they believe is a pack of lies? Studies have shown that it does no good to present them with the facts; they still believe the lie. I think that maybe there's a clue about one way to go about this in the FB thread posted--the guy was sent to a website, and he had a vested interest in finding out the truth. I know one way that doesn't work--to insist that people are wrong, misled. The correction has to somehow be positive, not negative. Maybe focusing not on the lie but pushing the truth, with urls?

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Response to cyclonefence (Reply #108)

Tue Jan 10, 2017, 01:48 AM

111. I don't have those answers. What I'm suggesting is that the anti-RW forces must

ASAP invest the time, effort, and money needed to study the issue, find out what works, and do it. The RW propaganda masters have done just that.

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Response to cyclonefence (Reply #16)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 05:37 PM

23. oh they will be convinced when they are suffering

we tried to warn them before the suffering commenced.
Now they are going to get what they voted for.

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Response to cyclonefence (Reply #16)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 08:40 PM

58. They should know that Dems care about them, because of our platform and policies..

versus what the republicans have to offer which is nothing.

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Response to Kahuna7 (Reply #58)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 11:50 PM

75. Absolutely

but how do we get them to listen to our message, to really and truly hear and believe us?

I am convinced that racism is the roadblock we have to overcome; I don't think Trump voters will trust us so long as their minds are full of bigotry. I know that racists can learn, that they can change their attitude toward people of color, but the cases I know about are time-consuming processes, one-on-one, that require superhuman forbearance. What we need is a way to help large masses of people to change their way of thinking about racial issues.

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Response to cyclonefence (Reply #75)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 12:14 AM

81. Racism is not the only roadblock.

A study was done recently (and I'm sorry that I don't have the citation) that revealed that misogyny was an even greater predicter of voting for Trump than racism was. We've got a long way to go to reach those people.

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Response to potone (Reply #81)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 01:01 AM

85. I believe misogyny is a problem, too,

particularly in the 2016 election, but I think racism is more deeply ingrained. Both issues must be addressed, of course, and in each case the problem is how.

Pure unadulterated ignorance underlies most of what divides us, I think. For starters, I'd like to see Civics returned to the high school curriculum. In my day, it seemed dry and useless to me, but now, especially with the death of print journalism, Civics or some kind of course in democracy would be an efficient way to educate young people about how government works.

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Response to cyclonefence (Reply #16)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 10:02 AM

99. It would be easier to flip red districts in blue States blue

Than to convince many of those in West VA - or Coal Miners in General - that Beyonce and Jayz aren't on welfare and didn't single handedly destroy the ACA.

My guess - the RNC is going to shiff all of the blame onto the Democratics (and their favorite whipping girl above) and these coal miners? They are going to eat it up. They will believe it.

Nope - let's flip every district in the blue states from red to blue in 2018. We have room to do this in the NJ7th in 2018. Let's go for a 100% blue state house and senate in blue states. Let's at least try.

There are other elections than the President and the next few years need to be spent ensuring good people who don't hate based upon gender, skin color, religion, sexual orientation, etc. etc. aren't harmed or experience as little harm as possible by this Administration.

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Response to cyclonefence (Reply #11)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 05:39 PM

26. Not possible....they knew better and voted away their health care benefits anyway.

I'm not interested in anything pertaining to these people. Sorry, no

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Response to SammyWinstonJack (Reply #26)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 11:43 PM

74. I'm not sure they did know better

I just learned about a woman who voted for Trump and was told by a friend that she had voted to end health care for her and her family. The Trump voter said, "No, you just go to this website and sign up, and you get health insurance." After a long, convoluted conversation, it emerged that the Trump voter did not know that the Obamacare that she wanted Trump to end was the same thing as the Affordable Care Act that she used to insure her family's health.

It never occurred to me that there could have been any confusion about this. I think the Repub refusal to use the term "Affordable Care Act" was an important part of their campaign strategy, and I wonder how widespread the confusion among Trump voters was.

ETA Apparently, confusion around the fact that Obamacare and the ACA are identical is widespread enough to warrant websites to help advocates educate consumers that they are the same thing.

http://healthpowerforminorities.com/confusion-about-affordable-care-act-vs-obama-care-names-and-arguments-for-supporters/

https://www.bustle.com/articles/6092-obamacare-vs-the-affordable-care-act-jimmy-kimmel-video-points-out-confusion

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/9/19/1239651/-Calling-the-Affordable-Care-Act-Obamacare-Just-Exacerbates-Public-Confusion-So-Stop-Doing-It

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Response to cyclonefence (Reply #74)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 03:55 AM

90. So she just wanted the insurance for other people to go away,

but not for her family. They were selfish ass people who voted for trump knowing he was racist and in very other way a hate mongering vulgar monster.

I'm sick to death of this crap of reaching out to the poor white people who only care about themselves. What about all the people of color and others who are now in far more danger than they already were?

Why are all you folks just caring about them and wanting to reach out to them? I'm seeing more of this every day here.

People are now just hoping to survive this disaster.

This shit is getting old!

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Response to cyclonefence (Reply #74)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 09:45 AM

97. That is simply willful ignorance. Like the idiots who hold signs that say "Keep gov't out of

Medicare"

These people don't WANT to be troubled by facts.

Fuck Them All

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Response to Coventina (Reply #97)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 11:26 AM

100. Well, you're going to have a "pure" party

if we follow your lead, but I doubt that we'll have a party that can win elections, or what is more important, a party that can make lives better for everyone, even the ignorant bigots we have no interest in including.

That's not my Democratic party, and if we were to go down that path, I'm afraid I'd have to drop my affiliation.

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Response to cyclonefence (Reply #100)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 11:44 AM

104. They were offered a better way and refused it. They were offered the information and refused to

learn.

They are a waste of our time, energy, and resources.

We have to recruit those who did not vote.

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Response to cyclonefence (Reply #11)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 05:42 PM

27. we will try to win them over

but we also know that they will not listen to us until the black dust starts coming from their lungs, and even then some preacher is going to tell them Jeee-slush wants them to still vote trump. It will be a fight, but not one we win by yielding what we know to be the truth.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #27)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 11:53 PM

76. I like the cut of your jib

I am distressed by the readiness to flush these thousands and thousands of misguided people away. We do need them, and god knows they need us.

You're probably right that they need to suffer, really suffer, before they will be open to our message.

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Response to cyclonefence (Reply #11)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 05:46 PM

29. We don't need them - we need 50k swings in MI, WI, PA

278-260

Nothing personal - just math.

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Response to hatrack (Reply #29)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 02:40 AM

88. 75K Hillary votes went uncounted in MI

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Response to cyclonefence (Reply #11)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 06:05 PM

36. While I'm loathed to be in the same party as these people right now,

Yes, I think we should win over their votes.

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Response to cyclonefence (Reply #11)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 06:22 PM

40. I live in coal country...

there's no converting these folks.

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Response to a la izquierda (Reply #40)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 06:35 PM

42. Agreed....

Their hatred of a multi-cultural society supersedes their own good...

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Response to a la izquierda (Reply #40)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 07:33 PM

52. There's no converting these folks.

Yes, many are done and living in a fantasy world.

I have friends from WV and to a person, they all say that they're never going back to visit family/friends still remaining there because they tell me that they're family members are racist and sexist--all that "good" stuff My friend told me that her uncle told her just 2 years ago that "Mexicans are taking their coal mining jobs." I don't live in WV, but are Mexicans responsible for taking coal mining jobs in WV? Again, My friend told me that her uncle whose a coal miner told her that just 2 years ago. I asked my friend earlier this week if her uncle knows that coal miners ARE going to be losing their health insurance (Thanks to thuglicans who they love and vote for without FAIL) and she told me she has NO intention of calling down then to check in on him or her other coal-loving family members post Nov. 8th, and that she really doesn't CARE what the hell happens to them.

I also have a very good friend from Ohio (Lucky that her parents got her & her brother out of Ohio as kids in 1970 and moved them to Ca.), and she said that as of this past summer's last family reunion (Her last family reunion), that she's never going back with her husband/children to visit her family members in Ohio. She "blessed" her racist family members out and told them to kiss her California-dwelling, Democratic ass. She said she does feel for a 67 year old Aunt who isn't racist or a dummy and who agrees with her ideologically, but is stuck living with her racist 47 year old POS son and his extremely racist POS wife and she has to go along to get along.

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Response to LenaBaby61 (Reply #52)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 07:54 PM

54. There are like 5 Mexicans in the damn state.

i know because I'm a historian of Mexico.
This place is for the birds.

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Response to a la izquierda (Reply #40)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 11:56 PM

77. My Aunt Rose in Minden

had a big picture of Jesus on one wall and a big picture of FDR on the other. FDR swooped into WV with jobs and won the state for Democrats for decades to come. WPA jobs didn't pay as well as coal mining, but they were jobs when jobs were pretty much non-existent.

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Response to cyclonefence (Reply #11)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 06:46 PM

46. Sure

I say we wait until several of them are dead, that way we'll have evidence they'll actually pay attention to! If we just try to talk to them, it won't make a difference...they'll continue to support Trump and the Republicans...mainly because these people are diehards!

Now, after a family member or friend dies...hard, then we have a better chance of convincing them to change their views...people like that don't care until it happens to them or someone close to them...

It sounds cruel, but they decided to piss on my family and friends who depend on Medicare and Social Security...and the VA, which the Republicans want to privatize!

When they have suffered, then we go after them, when they are weak and their defenses are down!!!!

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Response to atreides1 (Reply #46)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 11:58 PM

78. The sarcasm is strong in this one

but I think there's a lot of truth in what you say. Trump voters will have to hit rock bottom, and we need to be there to offer them solutions when that happens.

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Response to cyclonefence (Reply #11)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 06:48 PM

48. I don't think it is likely.

I live in the middle of trumpistan, and these backwoods types seem very set in their ways. What is disturbing is that this used to be a democratic stronghold.

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Response to cyclonefence (Reply #11)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 07:02 PM

51. How is that to be done?

They voted for Orange knowing he would repeal ACA and voted for Republicans in Congress, etc. knowing that.

How do you win them over without getting them to admit they made a mistake?

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Response to cyclonefence (Reply #11)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 10:58 PM

71. How can we win these people over? They believe Pres O shut down the mines,

 

They won't listen if you tell them about a reduced demand for coal and they are unaware that many of their jobs have been replaced by automation...

Those miners and their families need help relocating to cities where they can be re-trained or they need their congressmen and Senators to fight for vocational/tech schools to be built in coal country where these miners and their families live...

But all these miners want to do is vote in the hopes of depriving black and brown people of something...

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Response to TheDebbieDee (Reply #71)


Response to cyclonefence (Reply #11)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 12:28 AM

83. None. You can't teach everyone. And some people have to learn the hard way.

And with such deep racism, they are guaranteed a big fall. Which isn't a bad thing. Some of our biggest growth comes from our deepest pain and suffering.

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Response to AgadorSparticus (Reply #2)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 06:10 PM

37. I have to agree. They were told and told and told, and they are not only dragging down themselves

but millions of others, because they were too stupid to listen and were proud of their ignorance. I am really pissed at the fact they are also dragging millions down with them in a multitude of ways that will extend far beyond health. They have released a doomsday machine on this nation and in the long run, this might even be the least of their worries as the Trump Regime kicks into full gear.

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Response to cyclonefence (Original post)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 11:24 AM

3. They knew what they were getting

there was no bait and switch here.

They, no one else, decided that supporting hate in many forms, was much, much more important than their own lives.

Well, if that is what they chose, I can not feel sympathy for them when it comes to pass.

They literally asked for it. Demanded it.

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Response to Bettie (Reply #3)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 05:07 PM

15. They voted out of desperation.

Trump told them he was bringing back their jobs, thus their towns, and their way of life. They took a chance because he was the only one offering hope. Granted, it's all bullshit, but Hillary offered nothing.

The fact is about twenty percent of the country has an I Q below 100. There are fewer and fewer ways for these people to live. We really need a solution.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #15)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 05:26 PM

18. What Hillary offered was worse than nothing.

She didn't know how to talk to the coal miners and their ilk. She should have sent Jay Rockefeller as her surrogate to WV; he at least knows how to communicate with them. Hillary's message was fine; nobody would listen to it because she started out with "we're going to lose a lot more jobs in the coal fields."

I think there's been an enormous amount of resentment toward the Obamas among the uneducated, and I think a significant portion of Trump support was to "show" the democrats that they had had enough of being lorded over by an uppity black man. I think racism among Democrats also helped dampen voter turnout.

I heard an interview on NPR some time ago where a journalist said he had had no patience with people like coal miners who refused to consider retraining for other work. But then he thought, "what if *my* industry suddenly disappeared, and *I* was urged to stop what I had been doing for thirty years and be retrained to do something else, something that certainly would not pay me as well as I had been paid, something that would require me to start at the bottom and work my way up." He says his eyes were opened at that point.

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Response to cyclonefence (Reply #18)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 05:39 PM

25. people need to educate themselves outside of the rw bubble

We can't fix stupid.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-clinton-coal_us_57310338e4b016f37896bf10

>>>>snip
Hillary Clinton has a $30 billion, 4,300-word plan to retrain coal workers that covers everything from education and infrastructure to tax credits and school funding.

Donald Trump’s coal plan is a duckface thumbs-up in a miner’s hard hat and a rant about hair spray, President Barack Obama and China. The specifics of his plan to put coal miners back to work, David Gutman reported in the Charleston Gazette-Mail, are that he’d put coal miners back to work. That’s it.

And Trump is the candidate who won the West Virginia Coal Association’s endorsement ahead of Tuesday’s West Virginia presidential primary.

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Response to Horse with no Name (Reply #25)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 06:52 PM

49. Thank you!

I knew Hillary had a plan to retrain displaced miners and was offering training for jobs in renewable energy. Thanks for looking it up. They would rather cling to the pipe dream that coal and steel jobs are coming back.

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Response to Horse with no Name (Reply #25)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 07:50 AM

93. Apparently you didn't read the response above you.

Like it or not, the coal miners did NOT want to be retrained for ANY job other than mining. Hillary's plan just served to piss them off. Her approach was wrong, and it cost her a lot of votes.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #15)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 05:43 PM

28. And no matter what happens, they will blame Obama, Clinton and the "libruls"

rather than the guy who will utterly destroy them.

It wasn't desperation. It was racism, hatred of women, hatred of educated people, etc.

The really funny thing is that they think that Mr. Golden-spoon-in-his-ugly-orange-face actually cares if they live or die.

He doesn't. Democrats generally actually do care. Obama actually HELPED them with the ACA and they chose hate instead.

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Response to Bettie (Reply #28)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 05:47 PM

30. Thank you. "They chose hate." That is it, pure and simple.

It wasn't desperation.

It was hate. Nothing but hate.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #30)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 05:55 PM

34. I am so tired of hearing

"we have to reach out to these people".

No we don't.

We need to reach the people who don't vote, they can be reached.

We need to work against suppression efforts, that can make all the difference.

We need to ensure that if states have draconian voter ID laws, we work to ensure that people have those ID's even if it means taking a busload of people to the DMV once a month and helping them through the process.

Nothing is going to get Cletus to vote for a Democrat when he can vote for someone who talks about hating the same people he hates.

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Response to Bettie (Reply #28)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 06:13 PM

38. They just don't get it that THEY are the LOSERS he was talking about the entire time. F, I'm so

Last edited Mon Jan 9, 2017, 11:44 AM - Edit history (1)

fed up with their stupidity and whining, and being proud of their ignorance.

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Response to Bettie (Reply #28)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 06:37 PM

43. I doubt that. These are mostly union people who

Are not friends of the Republicans. They expect results. These are not idiot red necks voting gays, guns, and God.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #15)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 06:40 PM

44. I have a secret they might not know....

It's called books, if they took the time to read it is pretty easy to figure out coal has no future. Not simply because of environment laws but because other sources like Natural Gas and Solar are becoming more competitive (not to mention mining automation)....Ironically I don't live in coal country but know this.

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Response to physioex (Reply #44)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 06:47 PM

47. I agree, but we have to do something

For these people to live middle class lives. That is what Trump was selling, a way of life.
.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #47)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 09:17 PM

60. He was lying - Trump wasn't selling anything but smoke . . .

And they inhaled, didn't they?

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #47)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 05:02 AM

91. There are plenty of people in this country who don't

live middle class lives. Far from it. Many people on the streets too. Why are you folks only concerned about these racist trump voters.

I'm seeing something really disturbing happening here on DU. Why are all these new people coming here with this crap.

I saw one say trump may be the best thing that ever happened to Democrats! Yes that is what was said! When I confronted them about it they said because it will energize the Democrats! I'm not stupid. I know who is saying this.

Just where do you think this is coming from?. I may get my first hide or removed post after 14 years of being a member, but I will say this. You are not getting your damned ass revolution.

Please get together and quit bothering people who are mortified about this and yes, you all helped it happen! Hillary was so bad huh? Well are you happy now? trump is just loaded with all the bullshit you tried to throw on Hillary.

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Response to montana_hazeleyes (Reply #91)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 07:50 AM

94. First of all

I have been here since the beginning. I was here when Kephra died, Andy essentially killed, and the old DU Panic Room on yahoo.

Secondly, I am a grandson of Ludlow so my ties to coal, unions, and social justice run deep.

Third, in case you did not realize it, unions have been the heart and soul of the Democratic party. You think we should just abandon them?

I find your position ridiculous and a way to ensure we lose every election going foward

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #94)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 08:08 PM

109. I'm sorry I spouted off from your post. It's not towards you.

I am talking about many new posters here who are celebrating trump winning because they feel it helps their agenda.
I responded earlier to a poster who actually said trump may be the best thing that ever happened to the Democrats! I was told it will energize the democrats. Do they not see how horribly serious this is!?! These people are evil and drunk with power. We may not have a country because of this. I don't know if we will ever have another election with them in power.

I haven't been here as long as you, but I was here when Kephra suddenly died and I donated to help his mom. And I remember Andy. I have been here long enough though, to feel DU is not for people who are happy we lost.

I want a good life for everyone in this country. Every group. I do feel for the miners. And I am in total support of unions! Lots of people don't even realize without unions we would have never had 40 hr. work week, sick leave, vacation time, worker disability and so much more.

This administration wants to abandon all that, not me. Not Hillary.

As I say, I have stood up for social justice all my life, but I cannot ever support racists. Period.

I am white, my husband black. Some of our children are now buying guns for the first time in their lives. They are in their forties. And these are the ones in our blue state who have suffered from racism all their lives. They are scared. I'm thinking of getting a gun myself. I have two kids in very red states I'm scared for.

Why is there no care for them or all people? Just this one group?

I am sorry if I offended you. Maybe I was too upset to get my point across. Maybe I'm not now.

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Response to montana_hazeleyes (Reply #109)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 08:17 PM

110. You did not offend

It is am emotional time. I will let you in on a secret....

As a history buff remember that most modern European countries had a fascist phase. It fails, as fascism must. Then they truly vote in a progressive agenda.

This may just be the natural evolution of politics in a modern country.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #47)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 12:27 PM

106. What has become of us

Democrats that we--at least the vast majority of the Democrats responding in this thread--are so ready to throw away people because they are stupid? This is not what our party is about. Forget about the very practical need to win elections; we are the party of inclusion, and that doesn't mean just inclusion of minorities. These ignorant racists need us; we have to find a way to reach them.

I can't let go of my shock over learning that so many Trump supporters did not understand that Obamacare *is* the Affordable Care Act.
These are desperate people, clutching at any will-o-the-wisp that offers a glimmer of hope.

And what I haven't seen addressed is the fact that deep shaft mining has been moving toward extinction for at least 40 years. It's all big machines with a few operators scraping a mountain from the top down and shoveling up the coal. No "mining" involved.

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Response to cyclonefence (Original post)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 11:37 AM

5. Trump lied to more than the miners, he is full of lies. The demand for coal is going down.

Hillary wanted to provide retraining, miners are hard working people, they will work hard though it will be a different industry.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #5)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 06:41 PM

45. Exactly...Please see my post above. EOM

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Response to physioex (Reply #45)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 08:03 PM

55. I doubt Trump cares about retraining the coal miners for other occupations

Because of technology my career also ended. We have to make. A way in the world we find ourselves. The miners are hard workers, it would n s a great location to have manufacturing jobs open but I doubt Trump cares.

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Response to cyclonefence (Original post)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 11:39 AM

6. That was part of the small print they didn't notice under the "white supremacy" headlines of Trump's

speeches.

The con man conned them. Shocked. Shocked I tell you.

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Response to cyclonefence (Original post)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 12:19 PM

7. The milk of human kindness

and brotherly love is apparent in your thread of hate against coal country. Thank you for that.

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Response to OrwellwasRight (Reply #7)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 12:39 PM

8. +1

 

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Response to OrwellwasRight (Reply #7)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 04:20 PM

10. I don't understand what you mean about my thread of hate

against coal country. I am from WV and spent a lot of time with my Aunt Rose in Minden, a genuine company town.

It breaks my heart that people though of course they were warned would so consistently vote against their own interests. We dems have got to find a way to speak to folks like these miners so they can hear and believe what we tell them. Their racism is real and virulent, making them easy to dismiss. But unions, including the UMW, were once the backbone of our party, and while their racism is totally unacceptable, writing all these people off without trying to enlighten them seems wrong to me. It is to the benefit of the republicans to keep us apart, when so much of what we stand for ought by rights to be what blue collar workers desire.

To dismiss blue workers as racists is like using torture to extract confessions. It's easy for us and may even make us feel virtuous about our own beliefs, but in the end it does not change minds.

"Poor hardworking miners" is a beautiful old song. I was quoting. http://www.folkarchive.de/miner2.html

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Response to cyclonefence (Reply #10)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 04:37 PM

12. Taking my cue from your use of the word "pathetic"

I took your tone as completely sarcastic, meaning where you had "poor miners," I read "poor miners (eyeroll)." The post seemed very derogatory and not very supportive to me.

If that isn't what you meant, then I completely misunderstood your post. My apologies.

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Response to OrwellwasRight (Reply #12)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 05:28 PM

19. Thanks

for explaining. I wasn't being sarcastic. Nor very clear, apparently.

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Response to cyclonefence (Original post)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 01:59 PM

9. Its all too easy to dupe people in election run ups

Especially over 4 years.

And the attacks on Hillary lasted decades.

Just expect more black PR over the next decade. The GOP is under the thumb of Putin now.

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Response to cyclonefence (Original post)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 04:43 PM

14. No tears from me. If you vote against your own best interest you live with it and shut up.

It's a shame about everyone else, though. If only the dim bulbs would just damage themselves and leave us out of it.

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Response to cyclonefence (Original post)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 05:35 PM

22. My last give a damn left when they voted against what they needed

Democrats have been protecting these people from themselves for a long time.
republikkkans have figured out how to cheat enough to win...but without their support, it wouldn't have been possible.
I hope their deaths aren't too miserable.

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Response to cyclonefence (Original post)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 05:50 PM

31. They voted against themselves and we're all going to suffer for it. Hard to feel sorry.

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Response to cyclonefence (Original post)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 06:04 PM

35. And wait til their Union is crushed under heel

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Response to JDC (Reply #35)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 06:17 PM

39. And their kids get sent off to likely one of Trump's stupid wars to come along. n/t

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #39)

Tue Jan 10, 2017, 11:34 AM

114. mine too.......

we are screwn

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Response to cyclonefence (Original post)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 06:29 PM

41. I am actually interested in making sure these folks have a fair shake

it doesn't matter whether you are a coal miner in West Virginia or one of millions throughout the country in the working class who genuinely, beyond any dispute, get the raw end of the deal. Most people in the working class do you have to deal the system that will shorten your life, stress from out and on top of that thanks to America's myth that anyone can make it if they try, wind up having whatever dignity and respect they have stripped from them. It is also a long time coming that whites in the working class realize that no, the wealthy really have no compulsions about grinding them in to meet, nor will they even pretend to understand that their greatness is due to the efforts of a lot of people who do a lot of self-sacrifice that most in the industrialized world would not put up with! Think of how many people wound up working Christmas and the evidence is clear.

However let me be also clear about something else, that does not give the "white working class" to fill their mouths and minds with the same racist, sexist, and let's call this for what it is, religious chauvinism which will be directed against anyone not them. It is one thing to offer to share your bread, your time, and your effort. It is another to allow them to lie about you, degrade you, and to smile as with the aid of clergyman and robber baron they drag you to the hanging tree, where they will spend the whole night drunk on the cheap beer and hot dogs their employer provides as a means of cheap morale. Cheap morale, the sort of thing many of these folks have been very willing to settle for, and indeed, what they will gladly beat and kill others to maintain.

Yes I would rather go ahead and make these folk allies eventually as they certainly have the means to work towards a goal, but if they maintain their drunken stupor, especially the sort that is easily manipulated by those who want every one under their Thumb, then no thanks. What we have to remember is that yes, reality does indeed have a liberal bias! Just like these folks voted for George W. Bush, only to realize that he was neither competent nor moral enough to fight off the plutocrats, so will these people see what happens the same people that provided all that cheap beer and hot dogs turn on them. They will hear the laughter of frat boys and business execs when their mama dies because she can't get medicine. They will be yelled at by the clergy when their daughter can't get an abortion from when her boyfriend, inspired by the likes of Milo Yannupolis and all those " men's rights" articles they publish on the right wing, decides he can take whatever he wants from her. as file gasping, realizing that all they thought was just pure garbage, then they will listen, and if they don't, then instead of wasting time pleading while some relative is telling her right-wing friends that there is a liberal in the house just ready for the beating and taking, we will go to someone who will listen.


And I've got news for you, Trump can offer to build a wall that makes the Great Wall of China look like a doggie fence. It will not stop the demographics that the GOP really fears, and those demographics will peak just as the long bill that has been run up by every Republican since Reagan finally becomes due. Although I am very sure that as the cities get filled with water, trumps disciples will see a real estate opportunity, and the churches will see a chance to lessen coastal influence. Heck you been here some self-described liberals talk about how much they hate cities anyway. But that will not change the demographic waves, nor the actual tidal waves that will make the GOP and all those who follow them obsolete and washed away.

And no, that does not mean I am eager for whites to become some minority, what it does mean is that for those who wish to go ahead and keep imbibing that combination of racism, sexism and religious chauvinism, they will find themselves on the wrong end of history, and if we stop arguing amongst ourselves, we might be able to position ourselves to take advantage. Or, we could just wait for the Chinese to come, laugh at how all the West, Russia included, self-destructed. Now that they have anything to win, because by that time the door will be closed on civilization, all varieties of civilization, and any life that is anything but what Bertrand Russell called "mean, brutish and short ."

Then again what do mean brutish and short days come around some people will undoubtedly call this new state a restoration of balance. Those folks, regardless of party, are the enemies of mankind. That is why even though many Trump voters are indeed untrustworthy at best, evil at worst we will reach out to them, albeit not to be extent we sink with them, because it will take all hands to stave off the dark ages that have been coming our way for at least 50 years.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #41)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 06:58 PM

50. Hillary offered them a fair shake, and they bit her hand off.

You want to extend a hand to them?

Go right ahead, my friend.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #50)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 09:15 PM

59. True that

but on the other hand, the question arises, if we cannot get them on board, who do we replace them with so we can win?

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #59)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 09:51 PM

62. The millions who stayed home and didn't vote either way.

I'd much rather try to persuade them that voting matters and their voice needs to be heard.

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Response to cyclonefence (Original post)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 07:53 PM

53. Talk about not getting it!

Disenfranchised people, miners among them, voted for Trump because he's a human Molotov cocktail thrown at the completely rotten edifice erected by establishment types who have been selling us out for decades in the name of keeping the peace, keeping order, keeping the economy that benefits so few of us "strong," and basically standing up for no one who works for a living.

What they don't realize about Trump is that he's part of their problem and can't be any sort of solution as he, too, has a vested interest in keeping things as they are. After all, one of his first appointments was to have Goldman Sachs continue running the economy.

To their credit, they are slowly starting to figure out they were duped. They still haven't realized how completely off the rails he is.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #53)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 01:32 AM

87. This.

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Response to cyclonefence (Original post)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 08:08 PM

56. God forgive them for their vote.

But, I do believe we need to help them. It might be possible to give them a hand up and maybe a convert. It seems we need a lot of community outreach with our side. The workers with black lung and their families need all the support they can get.

The DNC and the State Democrats need to kick up the message.

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Response to leanforward (Reply #56)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 10:09 PM

66. No effing way. Not now, not ever.

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Response to leanforward (Reply #56)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 11:34 AM

102. No.

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Response to cyclonefence (Original post)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 08:33 PM

57. Prediction for the ACA:

They will "repeal and delay" it just long enough for them to make a few fixes that Dems would have likely made anyway, slap a new label on it and introduce their "better" plan.

Know what? All the rubes will really believe it's a brand spanking new plan and not retread Obamacare.

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Response to cyclonefence (Original post)

Sun Jan 8, 2017, 10:13 PM

67. They refused to educate themselves about anything at all.

Now they can go kick rocks.

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Response to cyclonefence (Original post)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 12:08 AM

79. Fuck the miners

They can choke on the coal dust after their treason.

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Response to cyclonefence (Original post)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 01:23 AM

86. poor my ass

Fuck them! and fuck The next end the war partition.

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Response to cyclonefence (Original post)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 11:48 AM

105. Elections have consequences....

apparently the plan Trumps opponent had to modernize and bring in high tech jobs wasn't good enough.

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Response to cyclonefence (Original post)

Tue Jan 10, 2017, 02:03 AM

112. When hardworking people are poor that is a problem that the Democrats

need to fix whether they vote for us or not.

It's not about winning, it's about doing the right thing even when it's not acknowledged or appreciated.

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Response to Jetboy (Reply #112)

Tue Jan 10, 2017, 10:07 AM

113. Jetboy, I want to bear your children

I was feeling pretty alone out here, waiting for an inevitable accusation of "holier than thou" and here you are.

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