This is now a full blown Constitutional crisis and needs to go to the SCOTUS

[Hekate]

Last edited Wed Jan 11, 2017, 02:11 PM - Edit history (2)

We've been nitpicking at DU over things that aren't even in the Constitution (like "free and fair elections&quot and so far have managed to overlook the one institution that can actually stop the swearing-in: the Supreme Court.

The precedent is recent: their interference in Bush v. Gore.

Someone with standing has to bring a suit for them to consider. They can't do it without someone coming to them.

Hillary could, but she would be reviled. Hell, she's already reviled, the GOP was already drafting articles of impeachment to take place if she won. So, would she have the stomach to go through with it?

I don't think Obama can go to the Supremes to extend his own presidency --?

The Senate may be an avenue. They are different from the House, and fewer of them would need to be swayed. Graham and McCain, probably Collins.

Look what Benedict Donald has in store for his first day in office: firing every one of the diplomats without a single replacement. Firing the head of the National Nuclear Security Administration and his deputy, likewise, plus hordes of others who are appointees.
http://gizmodo.com/trump-just-dismissed-the-people-in-charge-of-maintainin-1790908093

He's throwing open the doors to our national security and leaving no one in charge. Never mind his disgusting sex habits -- this is a clear and present danger.

I could go on and on about what Trumpco is already doing to our country, things we've already chewed over thoroughly, but this just tears it.

There's actually time to stop the inauguration, but is anybody working on it? If the inauguration is delayed while Trump is investigated, Mike Pence could not be made president. If Trump is indicted before being sworn in, Pence doesn't get to be sworn in as President. Pence's only avenue to the Presidency is to be VP first, so from his POV (and no doubt others in the GOP) it's better to make Trump President first, by hook or by crook.

But while not sleeping in the slightest (it's now after 4am here) these thoughts are churning -- there might be a way to stop DT's if the right people in Washington have the ethics and the balls to put country over party. The spooks have brought all this out in the open with their leaks -- finally. According to Newsweek, rumors were all over DC last summer, but nothing concrete came out. Well, we have it now.

Now what? Anybody have any ideas about what is coming up in the next few days?

[madaboutharry]

1. It would take people with courage

That is hard to find in Washington.

[Hekate]

2. I have been feeling like we are walking off a cliff and just haven't gone splat yet

I thought: this fraud is going to be sworn in and nothing can be done about it.

Except as of tonight (well, last night) things just got exponentially worse. This is unmistakably a Constitutional crisis. So who will step forward?

[global1]

3. What About Us Voters - The American People?....

Is there anyway we can take it up with SCOTUS. You know if we become 'Citizens United".

[KewlKat]

5. I told my husband yesterday that the nation to sue the bastard, take him to court, to stop this

inauguration.

Can we contact some lawyers today and have as many citizens as we can file a suit for the SS to hear? SERIOUSLY!

[KGBot001]

4. I for one...

I am ready to protest. Ive never protested in my life but will start for this. I feel like my vote didnt count, and i feel like our country is being sold. I will go protest.

[FailureToCommunicate]

6. Welcome to DU! Take it from a longtime protestor: wear sturdy shoes, bring a towel and

possibly a bicycle helmet.
And these days, have the ACLU justice app on speed dial on your cell.

Cheers

[Fritz Walter]

13. ...and a smart phone

or other web-enabled digital photo/video recording device to immediately capture and upload images of disproportionate response on the part of law enforcement. (They may be able to seize and destroy a small number of phones/cameras, but not hundreds).

The whole world is watching!

[KewlKat]

7. Based on the accusations in the report released yesterday, we need to protect out nation.

I swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; and that I would bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I took that obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I would well and faithfully discharge the duties of my office on which I entered.

I think we need a class action lawsuit on the above basis given what is known about this election.

Obama should be asked to stay on until this is sorted out. Why put the psycho in the hen house to destroy our nation?

[HockeyMom]

18. More likely in a scenerio like this with Trump, and Pence never sworn in,

wouldn't the line of succession in an interim Presidency go to the Speaker of the House? Paul Ryan???? Oh, no.

[BainsBane]

8. I think the best bet

Is for the GOP to threaten him with imprisonment unless he resigns. I know that depends on their acting out of patriotism, and they may not be capable of it.

Maybe there is some route through Scotus, but I don't know what it might be. I don't see how Bush v.Gore establishes legal precedent in this situation. The circumstances are very different.

I don't know who would be president if not Pence. The priority has to be getting Trump out because his being compromised to the Russians means he represents a danger to the country, and I don't mean politically. The only way the GOP might get on board is if they believe they will still control the White House. Pence is a rabid right winger, but at least he's not a Russian agent.

[Cha]

9. Thank you for your thought provoking OP, Hekate..

I have nothing now.. just reading and getting sicker and sicker.

I hope there's a way to stop him.. sounds like comey is still trying to protect trumpee's ass.

[n2doc]

10. The 4-4 SCOTUS?

You and I both know that Roberts, Alito, Thomas would all vote to keep Trump. The only wild card is Kennedy, and he voted to install Shrub in 2000.

[jaxind]

11. Obama

I would love nothing more than to have Obama hang on until it all gets sorted out, but then the rethuglicans would say that this was a scheme on Obama's/Democrats' part.

[Girard442]

12. The R's could invoke the 25th Amendment seconds after he's sworn in.

Section 4. Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

Full text at:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

and a bazillion other places.

Yeah, I know. Flying pigs and ice skating in Hell.

[NYC Liberal]

14. There isn't any Constitutional issue.

- Trump was elected by the Electoral College. Those are the only votes that matter and there's no legal or Constitutional method to invalidate them, particularly since they've also been certified by Congress.

- The only way Trump could be legally disqualified from taking office is if he were found to have failed to meet the Constitutionally specified requirements for the presidency (age, residency, citizenship, etc).

- Breaking the law - whether just indicted or even convicted - does not disqualify one from the presidency, no matter how serious the crime is. The Constitutional remedy in that instance would be impeachment and/or the 25th Amendment.

- If he were to be disqualified, then per the 20th Amendment, the Vice President-elect, Mike Pence, would take office on January 20. If Mike Pence were also legally disqualified then Congress decides (by law) who acts as president until someone qualifies. I believe the current law is just the regular line of succession, so that would mean President Ryan.

If, at the time fixed for the beginning of the term of the President, the President elect shall have died, the Vice President elect shall become President. If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified.

http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_Am20.html

- There's no way to extend a president's term past its end date -- nor should there ever be.

All of that isn't to say that Trump isn't a complete and total travesty who is going to do grave harm to our country. He is and will. He's a maniac, a lunatic.

[WillowTree]

23. THANK YOU!

It's really shocking to me how many politically active, voting citizens have no idea what our Constitution says or how our government works. The aftermath of this election has been a real eye-opener in that respect.

[Amishman]

27. Yup, that is the sad truth of the matter

There is no magic way out of this

[FSogol]

28. Exactly. Some folks need to brush up on the Constituiton. n/t

[onenote]

15. I understand the sentiment, but there is no basis for the SCOTUS to intervene

First, by its own terms, Bush v. Gore is not precedent for anything. The decision says so on its face.

Second, although I, along with millions, think the court should never have taken the case under the political question doctrine and, in any event, misinterpreted the Constitutional provisions at issue), in that case there was an actual legal theory, based on actual Constitutional provisions (the Equal Protection Clause and Article II, clause 1, Section 2 of the Constitution , on which the parties made their case. The Supreme Court isn't a free agent that gets to intervene in cases where there is no Constitutional basis.

Third, there are issues of standing -- who has standing to bring the suit? We know from the birther suits that not just anyone can challenge whether someone should be president.

Finally, one can't sue for speculative harm. Reports that Trump may do this or may do that starting January 20 aren't going to provide any basis for taking any form of judicial action against him. While not extending either the NNSA administrator or the Principal Deputy would be foolish, it's not illegal and, until January 20 we can't know whether or not they actually won't be extended or whether, if they're not, an acting head hasn't been named from within the agency to replace them. (The NNSA has gone without a confirmed Administrator in the past, with an acting administrator assuming the role during the interim).

I'm in no way defending anything Trump and his band of evil have done or may do. I'm just pointing out that dreaming of a Supreme Court intervention is just that -- dreaming. Contrary to your statement, short of Trump himself deciding not to take the oath of office, there actually is not time -- or the means -- to stop him from doing so otherwise.

Finally, even if Trump was indicted between now and the 20th, which seems highly improbable, it wouldn't prevent him from taking the oath of office. And even if Trump doesn't take the oath of office, Pence still could and presumably would, and would be the president per the Constitution.

[Hugin]

16. I'd think any US Citizen who voted would "have standing".

Especially delicious, if it were a Republican...

[dumbcat]

17. No US Citizen voted for the President of the United States

other than the Electors of the Electoral College.

[onenote]

22. I doubt even electors would have standing.

It would depend on what the legal basis of the case being brought was.

[NYC Liberal]

26. The only real legal basis would be that he's Constitutionally unqualified,

which means he's too young, not a natural-born citizen, not been a US resident for at least 14 years, or has already been elected twice. If he qualifies, then the legal remedies are impeachment or Section 3 of the 25th Amendment.

Unless the Electoral College vote were found to be somehow invalid. Even then, the only real possibility of a challenge on that basis is proving that electors were unqualified. And the only qualification for electors is that they not be members of Congress or hold any other federal office. Even there, you'd have to disqualify enough of them to change the outcome (almost 40).

[onenote]

30. Even then, the courts might decide such a claim not to be "justiciable"

Leaving aside who if anyone has standing to bring it, and recognizing that the SCOTUS completely ignored the justiciability issue in Bush v. Gore, it is likely that the court would find that the issue of the president's eligibility is a "political question" -- a matter that has been textually committed to another branch of government (i.e., the Congress, which is the arbiter of electoral college voting).

[NYC Liberal]

32. Right. And a candidate who is ineligible to be president

would almost certainly not be allowed to appear on any state's ballot.

[onenote]

21. No. That was settled in the birther cases. Individual voters don't have standing

to challenge the eligibility of someone to be president.

[Ligyron]

19. I'm afraid that the only chance we had at keeping this traitor out of office was

at the ballot box and that just didn't happen.

IDK if a suit could be brought in time enough to make it first through the lower courts and then to the SCOTUS by the date of his
installation. I kinda doubt it.

Plus, right now these most recent (well, recent for the public) allegations have not been even 80% vetted or investigated to the point
of being able to say they are true or likely to be so. Without some rather hard evidence, like wires back and forth from Alpha Bank to
the Russians from agents acting for Trump, we have nothing really. Even then, Trump has plausible deniability unless one of his toadies
turns on him.

On a more personal note Hekate, don't let this mother fucker in your brain to the point where you're losing sleep over it. He's not worth
it and what can be done will be done. Easy to say I know but...

[citizen blues]

20. At the very least, we can call key key GOP Senators' offices.

We can do this immediately, and phone calls have the greatest impact.

Trump had nothing to do with the reversal on getting rid of the ethics committee. That was due to the public outcry and the flood of calls that congress received. We did it then, we can do it again. Let's start with Graham, McCain, Collins and McConnell.

[RedEarth]

24. That's exactly what I've been thinking...phone #'s for McCain, Graham and Collins in message

McCain 202 224 2235
Collins 202 224 2523
Graham 202 224 5972

[lou ky dem]

25. Call your senator

And demand that trump release his Tax returns to prove he has no financial ties to Russia.

[csziggy]

29. His tax returns will not tell us if he has ties to Russia

We would need a full audit of all of his business holdings to see where his obligations are and where he is getting money. Unfortunately there are no laws and no tradition - as there has been for tax returns over the last several decades - that force an audit. That is mostly because past presidents have put their assets into true blind trusts to remove the possibility of any conflict of interest. Trump will never do that and there are no laws forcing him to.

If the US survives a Trump presidency, I would not be surprised if there are moves to force financial disclosures and to compel placing all assets into blind trusts for ALL federal officials all the way to the president. No one should be above the law, especially our chief executive!

Welcome to DU!

[EL34x4]

39. And Trump says, "go pound sand!"

Then what?

[libtodeath]

31. Somehow this is what needs to happen.

This is a situation no one ever thought of so fuck all the there is no mechanism bullshit.
The 4 liberal leaning justices should issue a ruling and let them fight it out while President Obama stays on or Vice President Biden takes over until it is made right.

[onenote]

33. The four liberal leaning justices have too much respect for the constitution to do any such thing

The idea is, quite honestly, laughable.

I hate that Trump is going to be inaugurated next week. I hate that his basket of deplorable are going to heading up the departments of our government.

But that's what's going to happen and the sooner we stop dreaming about it not happening and start organizing and working to impede them from carrying out their agenda, the better.

[libtodeath]

34. Then welcome to the end of the country and likely the civilized world

as we knew it.

[onenote]

36. Y'know, I thought it was the end of the world when Nixon was elected. And Reagan.

Last edited Wed Jan 11, 2017, 05:13 PM - Edit history (1)

Nixon was a virulent racist and anti-Semite who waged a secret war in Cambodia, maintained an enemies list, tore up the Constitution whenever he could. He was elected in 1972 by a nearly 20 million vote margin. For those of us around who remember those time, it certainly felt like the end of the world.

And Reagan's two elections, by 8 million votes in 1980 and 17 million votes in 1984 left many of us feeling as isolated and desperate as we had in 1972.

But we recovered.

And we'll recover again. But only if we don't give up by accepting the doomsday scenario as inevitable. Compared to 1972, 1980 and 1984, we have one significant advantage -- we have numbers. More people didn't want Trump to be president than did. And based on current polling, his limited popularity continues to fall like a rock == unprecedented for a president elect.

It may feel like all the political norms have been shattered, but they haven't been. And as Trump continues his erratic behavior, it will become more and more imperative for Repubs to distance themselves from him and more and more imperative, particularly in 2018, to tie repubs to him. People seem to forget that a lot of voters in the country switch from one side to the other based on how they feel the president is doing, which is why we did well in the later Bush years.

I see way too much "give up, we're doomed" sentiment on this board these days.

[libtodeath]

37. Were either of them open to blackmail from the kremlin with the nuke button as a counter?

[onenote]

38. Could be. McCarthy said there were 200 commies in the State Dept.

Obviously I don't think there were 200 commies in the state dept during the McCarthy era. I"m trying to make a point.

Putin is a bad guy. Really bad. A major threat to Eastern Europe, which makes him a threat to Western Europe. He regards the US as a friend of his enemies.

But when the right wing was running around fueling hysteria that the Commies were coming to get us, when McCarthy was finding Russkie sympathizers under every bed, a bunch of folks correctly recognized that the right-wing's reaction was over the top.

Well, I'm not going to stand in the shoes of the right wing of the past and go all hysterical about Russian being an existential threat to the US. They're a significant threat to some of our allies, just as they were back in the day. They need to be pushed back against. But I'm not losing my shit worrying about doomsday scenarios now, just as the smarter folks didn't lose their shit worrying about them back in the day.

[EL34x4]

40. Maybe President Obama could block the White House front door with his outstretched arms

And refuse to hand over the keys. This would be about as effective as SCOTUS issuing a ruling.

No matter what, at precisely the stroke of noon this January 20th, President Obama is no longer the President of the United States and President-elect Trump becomes the President of there United States. The Oath of Office can be given by any judge.

The Supreme Court don't even have to attend and no inaugural ceremony needs to take place. It all happens by the simple passage of time.

[Hekate]

35. *