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pennylane100

(3,425 posts)
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 06:26 PM Jun 2012

I was googling on the reasons that led to Germany's slide into facisim.

I found a site that seems to be the class lesson taught by a Mrs. Burns in a school in Virginia. I am not posting this as an endorsement of the lesson although it seemed quite good. However, there was a page that listed the reasons why so mean people fell for fascism. The last reason listed on that page seemed to be tailor made warning about this country's future if we do not stop the corruption of our politicians and courts by corporations and groups like the Tea Party.

It is referred to as "The Boiled Lobster Theory" It is said that a lobster dropped in a pot of very hot water will immediately jump out. A lobster put in a pot of cold water, which is then heated, will not notice the problem until it is too late. Most Germans, Italians, and Japanese who watched the rise of fascism in the early 1930s did not notice or know how bad it would all turn out. By the time they did fully understand, those who objected knew perfectly well that to speak out would mean arrest and maybe death.

This may be a well known theory to the many well read members of DU but I had not read of it before. I saw it as a perfect way to describe what I fear will happen here if we elect people like Romney to run our country.

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I was googling on the reasons that led to Germany's slide into facisim. (Original Post) pennylane100 Jun 2012 OP
more commonly known as the Boiled Frog Treatment banned from Kos Jun 2012 #1
Or Pavlov's Frog by people who flunked Psych 101 slackmaster Jun 2012 #26
Exactly!!! n/t RKP5637 Jun 2012 #2
For a good insight by someone who lived it The Blue Flower Jun 2012 #3
Sounds eerily familiar. nt awoke_in_2003 Jun 2012 #22
Thanks, I will check it out. pennylane100 Jun 2012 #24
While it is descriptive, it has been proven false. they will jump outta lukewarm water too. WingDinger Jun 2012 #4
Lobsters jump? Who knew? AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2012 #21
the fact CleanLucre Jun 2012 #5
+ 1. n/t truedelphi Jun 2012 #38
This message was self-deleted by its author bupkus Jun 2012 #6
Do you have a link for the ebook, because I can't find one. dmr Jun 2012 #12
This message was self-deleted by its author bupkus Jun 2012 #14
This message was self-deleted by its author bupkus Jun 2012 #16
It is one of the most important books written for truedelphi Jun 2012 #41
Rev Moon admitted in some of his speeches that the goal was to overthrow constitutional democracy blm Jun 2012 #13
Thanks, I have received a lot of good suggestions and will check them out. pennylane100 Jun 2012 #25
There is also the crab pot phenomenon dixiegrrrrl Jun 2012 #7
"They Thought They Were Free" is an excellent book. rhett o rick Jun 2012 #8
Well I do not like frogs very much but at the risk of sounding dumb, pennylane100 Jun 2012 #23
the trauma of WWI made people in those countries question democracy BOG PERSON Jun 2012 #9
Pretty sure France and England were the only democracies..... Wounded Bear Jun 2012 #32
no, they more or less had universal male suffrage prior to ww1 BOG PERSON Jun 2012 #34
War and democracy FarCenter Jun 2012 #40
I don't buy that, actually Scootaloo Jun 2012 #10
So the history in this article is incorrect? jtuck004 Jun 2012 #35
Why do you think GHWBush tapped neo-fascists like RevMoon and Rupert Murdoch to expand their media blm Jun 2012 #11
Didn't Mussolini promise jobs to the masses? chknltl Jun 2012 #15
You are correct JustAnotherGen Jun 2012 #18
Confirms what I heard, thanks. Likely heard all from Thom Hartmann. chknltl Jun 2012 #31
I'm going to apply JustAnotherGen Jun 2012 #33
Fascinating, so he was an early flip flopper! chknltl Jun 2012 #36
Define programs JustAnotherGen Jun 2012 #39
misread platform for programs, sorry chknltl Jun 2012 #43
What you say is correct, but your timeline is off: truedelphi Jun 2012 #42
Do you have any suggestions? Doctor_J Jun 2012 #17
I wish I knew the best answer to that. pennylane100 Jun 2012 #30
Ah also known as the boiled frog theory nadinbrzezinski Jun 2012 #19
I'm not sure it applies to the Nazi's stupidicus Jun 2012 #20
And what about those Nazi's damnedifIknow Jun 2012 #27
They did not think it could happen here. I think that is the name of a book. But it is also a jwirr Jun 2012 #28
I remember when I lived in Germany I worked at the American base hospital that Patton southernyankeebelle Jun 2012 #29
I could write an article of the rise of Nazi Germany Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2012 #37
Fascism arose in the main part cwydro Jun 2012 #44

The Blue Flower

(5,419 posts)
3. For a good insight by someone who lived it
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 06:32 PM
Jun 2012

I highly recommend the novel The Oppermans by Lion Feuchtwanger, published in 1932. People simply didn't believe the crazies and the thugs could take over. Good, intellectual, decent, and moral people were shocked into submission by naked brutality, applied to anyone who disagreed. The laws were changed by the crazies and thugs to make uncivilized behavior legal and acceptable. We cannot take the veneer of civilization for granted.

 

WingDinger

(3,690 posts)
4. While it is descriptive, it has been proven false. they will jump outta lukewarm water too.
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 06:34 PM
Jun 2012

Didnt stop me from using it though. See pic.

Response to pennylane100 (Original post)

Response to dmr (Reply #12)

Response to dmr (Reply #12)

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
41. It is one of the most important books written for
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 10:37 PM
Jun 2012

Our era.

And remember, for most Germans, the fact is: Hitler brought many improvements into the average German's life. if you were not Jewish or a union leader, or a dissident, things got better for you. The worker was offered honor and decency. Families that had never had a vacation soon had two weeks each year and spending money. Hitler saw to it that the Volkswagon was affordable, so people could have cars.

Unemployment became a thing of the past. The German citizens may have understood war may be coming, but they also were being told you'd get something in return for that war.

We the American People have been led into fascism, while all around us our lives have been destroyed. Unemployment is way up. Our homes are being foreclosed. Our chance of seeing our retirement monies is lessened every day. The writing is on the wall: unless you occupy a position of power, you are out of luck.

blm

(112,919 posts)
13. Rev Moon admitted in some of his speeches that the goal was to overthrow constitutional democracy
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 07:19 PM
Jun 2012

It's amazing to me that so many people believe that it was just coincidence that fascist pals of GHWBush like Rev Moon and Rupert Murdoch were urged to expand their media holdings into the US and England over 30 years ago - and focusing on protecting the GOP and dividing the country along social, religious and cultural divides.

Read the article posted below warning about Moon's neo-fascist agenda some years ago. Doesn't point fingers at the Bushes as it should, though. There ARE no coincidences when it comes to Bushes.

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
7. There is also the crab pot phenomenon
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 06:38 PM
Jun 2012

apparently when you haul in crabs and put them in the deep baskets that are used,
a crab that tries to crawl up and out of the basket will be pulled down by the other crabs.

I see that concept in a lot of comments here whenever anyone points out the political/financial issues we are having.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
8. "They Thought They Were Free" is an excellent book.
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 06:44 PM
Jun 2012
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html

I have heard the theory as the Boiled Frog. But the Brits may be leary of using the term "frog". Just sayin.

pennylane100

(3,425 posts)
23. Well I do not like frogs very much but at the risk of sounding dumb,
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 08:10 PM
Jun 2012

I am not sure why we would would avoid that term, unless it has something to do with the French. I know that it used to be a term to describe them used bv many English people, except they add "ie: at the end. I think it is because they enjoy a dish of frog legs (Ugh). I have never thought of it as being a really bad insult, but maybe it is.

I will definitely check out the book you recommend. Thanks.

BOG PERSON

(2,916 posts)
9. the trauma of WWI made people in those countries question democracy
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 06:48 PM
Jun 2012

they asked themselves and each other, if democracy was such a wonderful thing, how come it couldn't prevent millions of young men slaughtering each other for no good reason ? and then a lghtbulb went off in their heads... fascism !

Wounded Bear

(58,437 posts)
32. Pretty sure France and England were the only democracies.....
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 08:36 PM
Jun 2012

prior to WWI. Germany was definitely a monarchy, as was Autria-Hungary, and I think Italy.

Democracy didn't get there until after WWI, and the fact that it was more or less imposed from outside made it unpalatable to many. Plus the Depression was liked to the Weimar Republic in Germany, so the Nazis had a ready made scapegoat for the early years. They were always anti-Semitic, but didn't really go after the "Final Solution" of killing all of the Jews until after WWII had begun.

It is important, though, to monitor the situation here very closely. Corporatists become Fascists pretty easily.

BOG PERSON

(2,916 posts)
34. no, they more or less had universal male suffrage prior to ww1
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 09:19 PM
Jun 2012

according to the internet. germany since 1871, austria-hungary since 1907 for austrian half, italy in 1913

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
40. War and democracy
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 10:37 PM
Jun 2012
In 1901 Britain had a constitutional government, but it was not a fully-fledged democracy. In 1918 it became a democracy, with the introduction of universal adult male suffrage and votes for women aged over 30.

What mattered more by then was the fact that the country was engaged in the greatest war of modern times, one in which Britain's military deaths were more than twice those it would suffer in World War Two.

World War One may not have initiated democratic change, but it determined its timing. Ironically, the war's demands also weakened the exercise of constitutional government, albeit temporarily.

Freedom of speech was curtailed by the Defence of the Realm Act in 1914. Elections, due in 1915, were deferred until the war was concluded. And the formation of a coalition government in the same year all but silenced parliamentary opposition.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/britain_wwone/overview_britain_ww1_01.shtml

Sufferage was limited and the hereditary members of the House of Lords still exercised some power.
 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
10. I don't buy that, actually
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 07:04 PM
Jun 2012

The "rise to fascism" was pretty darned quick, especially when considering the glacial pace of political change. For comparison, the ideals of Democracy took nearly two hundred years to percolate into a meaningful series of revolutions. Communism didn't rise to a national philosophy until six decades after the basics were outlined, and even then it was done incorrectly. Fascism, by contrast, rose to primacy in less than a single decade.

Applying the "boiled frog argument" to this situation is simply an attempt to absolve the people of these nations of any wrongdoing or bad thinking. Watch the videos of the Nazi rallies. Tens of thousands of people - all of them completely and utterly clueless? Millions of Germans had seen the damage caused by the brownshirts and their allies PRIOR to Nazis rising to power. These same Germans heard time and time again how the state was turning against the "lesser people" - and the Germans continued their unwavering support. Your average German SUPPORTED the Nazi regime, wholly and honestly.

Over in Japan, the Japanese were riding high over their having just kicked the ass of a world power (Russia) and were fast on their way to a full takeover of what, for two thousand years, had been the epicenter of political, military, and economic power in all of Asia. Basically, from the Japanese perspective, their nation was fast on its way to becoming the most powerful empire on Earth; And truthfully, they weren't wrong. They had kicked Russia out of their sphere of influence, taken over Korea and northern China, and were making successful moves against the colonial French and British. And the Japanese people loved it. New power, new wealth, and new prestige were flooding into those islands, and there was absolutely no reason for the Japanese people to NOT support their government... And unlike the Germans, it's not as if the Japanese political system had even really changed. You still had your Emperor, in his pretty house in Kyoto. You still had your Shogun, though now he was called a "general," and commanded planes rather than cavalry.

Nobody in Germany, Italy, Japan, or their allied nations went into this unaware and deceived. Hitler promised to beat the fuck out of Europe and kill lots of Jews. There were no surprises when he did exactly that.

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
35. So the history in this article is incorrect?
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 09:43 PM
Jun 2012


here



"... the Nazi Party, was a political party in Germany between 1920 and 1945. Its predecessor, the German Workers' Party (DAP), existed from 1919 to 1920. The term Nazi is German and stems from Nationalsozialist,[7] ...

The party was founded out of the current of the far-right racist völkisch German nationalist movement and the violent anti-communist Freikorps paramilitary culture that fought against the uprisings of communist revolutionaries in post-World War I Germany.[8] The party was created by Anton Drexler as a means to draw workers away from communism and into völkisch nationalism.[9] Initially, Nazi political strategy focused on anti-big business, anti-bourgeois, and anti-capitalist rhetoric, although such aspects were later downplayed in order to gain the support of industrial entities, and in the 1930's the party's focus shifted to anti-Semitic and anti-Marxist themes....


I think you are giving too much credit to the masses. There were large numbers of people in their parties and armies. But outside of that we know people must have figured some things out, but their news was far more controlled by others than it is today. As late as a two or three years ago we were still reading reports from Afghanistan of people who still had no idea of the attack on the World Trade Center. Survey Americans and find out how much they really know about our attempts to control whole governments and economies just to our South, much less overseas. Heck, many here can barely speak one language, what could they really understand about foreign affairs?

I'm not even sure about their "literacy rate". Education being for everyone is a relatively recent idea, and I am not sure it had filtered through their whole society by then, which would further impede understanding.

I say this because countries have been known to attack and kill hundreds of thousands of people in a foreign country based on the lies of their leaders, so perhaps the people don't "know" what we would like to attribute to them.

blm

(112,919 posts)
11. Why do you think GHWBush tapped neo-fascists like RevMoon and Rupert Murdoch to expand their media
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 07:08 PM
Jun 2012

holdings into the US and England over 30 years ago. Propaganda would be essential to the fascist agenda. Bush knew exactly what he was doing when he put committed fascists like Roberts and Alito on the SC - they maneuvered to make Citizens United case into a ruling that would put this nation on the fast-track for a complete fascist takeover.

This is why I point to GOPs moonie voter base as duped traitors - they don't even realize they were DELIBERATELY targeted over 30 years ago for propagandizing with the goal to get rid of constitutional democracy in this country. And, sadly, Rev Moon and his fascist cronies have been proved right.

READ THIS older article about Moon and see how much of his agenda came to pass.

"Master Speaks is a collection of speeches by Moon which further reveals Moon's political ambitions."My dream," according to a l973 speech,"is to organize a Christian political party including all the Protestant denominations, Catholic, and all the religious sects. We can embrace the religious world in one arm and the political world in the other... . The whole world is in my hand, and I will conquer and subjugate the world.&quot 62) In one of those speeches, Moon advocated "an automatic theocracy to rule the world." Such a theocracy, he declared meant that .".. we cannot separate the political field from the religious... . Separation between religion and politics is what Satan likes most.&quot 67)

Moon has been explicit about his plan to "unify" the world under a global theocracy and his opposition to constitutional democracy. (46,58) Alan Tate Wood, a former high official in the church, quoted Moon as saying that "God is phasing out democracy.&quot 67) Wood testified to Congress that Moon told followers in 1970 that the U.S. was to come under UC dominance."Part of our strategy," Moon said,"must be to make friends in the FBI, the CIA, and the police forces, the military and business community... as a means of entering the political arena, influencing foreign policy, and ultimately of establishing absolute dominion over the American people.&quot 46) The same holds for the Soviet Union. As Moon's top lieutenant, South Korean Col. Bo Hi Pak, told Conservative Digest, the Rev. Moon "would like to liberate Moscow by the year 2000.&quot 61)

In an interview with Ken Ellis, a producer for KQED-TV in San Francisco, Bo Hi Pak demonstrated the siege mentality and political strategy of the church leadership."We want to awaken the world," Pak said."We want to turn the tide [so] that this totalitarian, godless system must go... . It is a total war. Basically a war of ideas. War of minds. The battlefield of the human mind. This is where the battle is fought. So in this war, the entire things [sic] will be mobilized: political means, social means, economical means and propagandistic means.&quot 37)

The UC has been described as a "multinational conglomerate of business, political, and cultural organizations.&quot 34) This is in keeping with Moon's prescription for global consolidation. In June 1983, he told a church group that four things were needed for such a Unification to take place: ideology, economy, science and technology, and journalism.&quot 34) As a consequence, UC's many affiliates, offshoots, and fronts reflect these priorities and include the organizations and enterprises listed below. In 1982, the Moon-owned New York Tribune said that there were more than 100 Unification Church front groups. "
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/Unification_Church

chknltl

(10,558 posts)
15. Didn't Mussolini promise jobs to the masses?
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 07:21 PM
Jun 2012

Not sure where I heard it but :following the Great Depression, Italy was slow to regain jobs. Mussolini railed against the government claiming it to be ineffectual in resolving the jobs problem. When he took office, he fired the entire Italian congress replacing it with members from Italy's major corporations. This new type of government was named 'Fascism' by one of Mussolini's cabinet members, (Giovani Gentile (sp?)), I think was his name. Again, I do not know where I heard this, some of it was from Thom Hartmann but the time prior to Mussolini taking power may be a bit sketchy...

When we think of fascism we first think of the Nazis. It would make an interesting read the story of how fascism took root among other nations, how it became accepted by the citizens of those nations and how eventually those nations became free of fascism. (Hint hint fellow DUers who follow history)

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
18. You are correct
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 07:32 PM
Jun 2012

My husband's uncles still have pics of themselves with Mussolini hanging in their homes. His parents are the odd ball Socialists in his father's side of the family.

Mussolini had the door opened for him by promising jobs - with jobs three meals a day.

chknltl

(10,558 posts)
31. Confirms what I heard, thanks. Likely heard all from Thom Hartmann.
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 08:36 PM
Jun 2012

He has spoken quite a bit on the topic of fascism in Italy. It'd be nice if word got out to the American electorate exactly when and where the name 'fascism' got its name and the details behind this history.

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
33. I'm going to apply
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 09:08 PM
Jun 2012

For citizenship there so doing a deep dive into Italian history and doing my best to learn the language. Started reading a lot of history after meeting these 80 something year old men.

One thing that is eerie - Benito's early platform and speeches are similar if what they reach for - to those of FDR. Somewhere along the way it got wonky . He picked the wrong side. He threw his hat in the ring with Hitler.

chknltl

(10,558 posts)
36. Fascinating, so he was an early flip flopper!
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 09:56 PM
Jun 2012

Throwing out congress and replacing them with corporate reps is decidedly right wing! Otoh, government sponsored programs which support the citizenry against the corporations are decidedly left wing. Did Benito, support left wing programs in fact or did he just do so in his speeches?

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
39. Define programs
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 10:30 PM
Jun 2012

Thats the difference - Italy first, jobs first, shake off the heavy iron coat of continuous poverty, one citizen one slice of bread, one man putting in a hard days work getting a good life. . .

Then it goes off te rails - Italians first, stop the outsiders, eject the others - sound familiar? I'm talking about present day America with therught wing mentality about "the others".

If we jump the shark - if Romney is President - when he sells us to the Kochs (Hitler) - will we have it in us to hang him? Because not a single country will raise a finger to help us.

We're on our wn here . . .

chknltl

(10,558 posts)
43. misread platform for programs, sorry
Mon Jun 25, 2012, 12:31 AM
Jun 2012

Listening to progressive talk radio while typing questions to a fellow DUer can sometimes be problematic for me. Still, it sounds like Mussilini was saying whatever he thought would get him into power. Being unfamiliar with Italian history myself, I hope you don't mind my picking your brain for information. Prior to Mussilini, what political system did Italy employ....was it a democracy?...was Benito actually elected? Another question if I may, how did the populace react to his abolishing of their congress?

Regarding the US situation under a romney administration, I believe the nations of the world would be hard pressed to stand against us militarily but economically is a different option. Screwing the USA economically isn't exactly new, the Chinese are doing so right now. Watching the American economic decline is likely bringing great joy to many of our enemies as it fulfills the very prediction Obama Bin Laden made after 9/11.

Anotherwords, I suppose I agree with you, we may indeed be on our own should we be unable to block the hostile takeover of our government by the corporatists who are spending billions on doing just that.

That said, it is rather worrisome thinking what the corporatists could do/are doing with the biggest most powerful military this planet has ever seen....with hindsight, it might have been better had the fascists been stopped by their respective citizenry before the need for WWII.....which is where, imho, we are today.

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
42. What you say is correct, but your timeline is off:
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 10:41 PM
Jun 2012

Italy suffered economic catastrophe long before the Great Depression.

So things you mention actually happened years earlier than that. Although Mussolini had been an ardent and poetic figure for people around the world, who flocked to meet him and visit with him in the Nineteen Teens, by the early Nineteen Twenties, he had become tyrannical and a fascist.

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
17. Do you have any suggestions?
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 07:29 PM
Jun 2012
if we do not stop the corruption of our politicians and courts by corporations and groups like the Tea Party.


How would you do this?

pennylane100

(3,425 posts)
30. I wish I knew the best answer to that.
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 08:30 PM
Jun 2012

What I do know is that we must do all we can. Regardless of what Obama has done to disappoint some of his supporters, it is important to do all we can to make sure he is elected. Volunteering at a local level and donating are the only things I can do.
We must also support organizations like Act Blue and Move On, which I also do. I am not sure it makes a difference but I also sign petitions at Change.org and a couple of others.

I know there are so many things wrong with the direction this country is going but, in my opinion, if we lose the presidency, we are well on our way to losing the war. There will be Supreme Court nominations coming up. There are so many vacancies on the federal courts that the republicans have blocked. We may not be able to do enough but we owe it to our country to try.

If all that fails, and we lose the White House, and both houses of congress, the second amendment will start looking good to liberals. Then everyone would lose.

 

stupidicus

(2,570 posts)
20. I'm not sure it applies to the Nazi's
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 07:39 PM
Jun 2012

but as one who has been writing about it happening here for more than a decade now, we're a good example of the process imo

damnedifIknow

(3,183 posts)
27. And what about those Nazi's
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 08:20 PM
Jun 2012

who were let into the US after world war two hmmm? Not saying there's a link, just saying.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
28. They did not think it could happen here. I think that is the name of a book. But it is also a
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 08:28 PM
Jun 2012

warning that we need to keep alert to the signs of the times.

 

southernyankeebelle

(11,304 posts)
29. I remember when I lived in Germany I worked at the American base hospital that Patton
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 08:29 PM
Jun 2012

died in. I worked in the office of civilian personnel. I was the only american and the rest were Germans working for the Americans on the base. I really liked working with these people. They worked and processed alot of civilians working at the hospital. We often talk about WWII. The one man said he was in the Youth Corp. He said you didn't have a choice. Everyone was afraid. It was very interesting.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
37. I could write an article of the rise of Nazi Germany
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 10:09 PM
Jun 2012

Starting with the fact that it was mostly their redneck population in the countryside that started it over resentment of the Liberals and Jews in Berlin who they feel betrayed them by surrendering in WWI.

Hitler got in by lying however Mussolini was quite open about the idea that corporations should not only run the government but BE the government. Keep in mind that during the 20st century Italy went through 70 different types of government.

Wanna talk "uncertainty"?

The only thing consistent is that none of the governments cracked down on the mafia and the people mostly ignored their government.

 

cwydro

(51,308 posts)
44. Fascism arose in the main part
Mon Jun 25, 2012, 02:44 AM
Jun 2012

because of the harsh treatment of Germany after the First World War.

The Allies handled it better the second time around.

Very sad there had to be a second time, and very sad that, even now, we are creating new enemies.

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