We should not support the impeachment of Trump

[LisiFFXV]

without the impeachment of Mike Pence as well. Although it is (remotely) possible that he is genuinely innocent of any wrongdoing, given his entanglement with Trump, it is too dangerous to allow him to potentially continue as president given that he may be just as complicit as Trump in all of this. There is every reason to believe that he may:

1. Take orders from Trump after Trump is impeached.
2. Independently continue in the same direction as Trump.
3. Allow Trump's actions and appointments to stand after Trump's impeachment.

Furthermore, if Russia did indeed manipulate our election, then his tenure as either vice president or president is just as illegitimate as Trump's.

Ultimately, the risk is too great not to impeach him as well if we want to assure that this madness comes to a complete stop.

Although we are still too far away for realistic chances of impeachment, there is every reason to believe that impeachment could be on the table in the coming weeks and months. When the time comes, congress must impeach and remove both of them concurrently.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. Do you want Paul Ryan to be president?

[LisiFFXV]

3. It is the better and safer option

until the next election. After the impeachment of Trump and Pence, Ryan would politically be a lame duck at best who would likely maintain the status quo until the next election.

[Hekate]

33. Am I the only person here who remembers Spiro Agnew?!

He was Richard Nixon's VP, and they got rid of Agnew first. There were no double vacancies because as soon as they got rid of that bribe-taking crook Agnew, the House picked Jerry Ford to be VP. Then they went after Nixon.

Stop worrying about Paul Ryan. Paul Ryan has a powerful career, and he doesn't want to wreck that by stepping in to the kind of mess this bunch will leave. He'll run for POTUS in his own good time.

Also, as far as Pence goes, what has he done that's actually illegal? I would love it if someone, anyone, would come forward with some genuine dirt on the guy, but no one has.

[MadBadger]

2. Pence would be better

I'm at that point.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

9. Yup. Pence is very dangerous, but at least is professional, important internationally.

And Pence is too ultra-right to avoid creating big problems for the Republicon Party in 2018 and would not be re-elected in 2020.

[TeamPooka]

23. at least Pence is a pro who knows where the thirds rails are. He would want to run for re-election

and knows what you can and can't do and not kill your political career.

[ginnyinWI]

4. As long as Bannon goes with DT,

I could probably stand Pence. Bannon is a serious threat to this nation.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

10. Ban Bannon

[center][font size = "+2"]Ban Bannon[/font][/center]

[Jim Beard]

34. Bannon is the most evil. He does not want to make right,

he wants constant tourmoil until his opposition is defeated.

[moonscape]

35. To the world n/t

[mvd]

5. Well, whatever idiot that would take over in his place should be weakened

Also, we need to remind the Repukes of what they said about President Obama's EOs. Trump's are far worse! Impeachment should be mentioned.

[WheelWalker]

6. If we get to the impeachment and removal of the Loser President, I suspect

there would be so much collateral damage to the administration that Pence would be for practical purposes pretty much emasculated for the remainder of the presidential term and the subsequent election would deal with him more cleanly.

[LisiFFXV]

11. Isn't this kind of like saying...

"After the removal of Adolph Hitler, I suspect his successor Hermann Göring will be emasculated"?

Trump clearly is purging all those who are not loyal to him and his ideas. Obviously, Pence meets that criteria, or he would never have been chosen to be his running mate. Just because he puts on a better public image, doesn't mean he isn't fully complicit in all of this.

If we want this to stop, all of Trump's inner circle have to go.... just as all of the inner circle of any fascist strongman anywhere else has to go to truly stop the tyranny.

[TeamPooka]

24. Remember, trump didn't want Pence in the 1st place.

its a marriage of convenience

[WheelWalker]

29. I don't think there's a real similarity. By "collateral damage" I mean his inner circle.

I don't count Pence as his inner circle in the same way HG was to the little corporal. Also, we are talking a constitutional remedy in our case v. a probable violent remedy in the Third Reich. There were no non-violent remedies for removal of Der Fuhrer. Third, all power is not (and if impeached/removed) nor will it have been centrally controlled, so in a transfer the other branches and departments would tend to retard the initiatives and acts which led to the impeachment/removal until a political reckoning at the Executive level was effected.

Anyway, that's how I look at it tonight. It all depends on what Pence knows, and when he knew it.

[Melleon57]

7. So let him cook his own goose.

So in other words, fall back and Let him self destruct... do the republic have enough time for that to happen is the question. Bannon is whom I'm concerned about most.

[LisaL]

8. Who is going to impeach him?

We have republican congress and senate.

[LisiFFXV]

12. I suspect

that he will push things so far that even the republican congress will not be able to permit it to continue.

[LisaL]

13. I will believe it when I see it.

[MFM008]

19. Jack T Ripper.

Sometimes you go TO far.

[TeamPooka]

26. same here. The GOP is going to ride Trump like a rented mule for all they can get from him

[Exultant Democracy]

14. Putin agrees with you. I think the reasoning in this post borders on alternative facts.

Or have you forgotten that we have relatively recent historical example of why your thinking on this is flawed beyond absurd.

[AlexSFCA]

15. no doubt

I hate to say it but Pence would be better than trump. Pence is not in support of new global order not that we know, he probably wouldn't be trying to destroy the government. He probably just wants a christofascist state which can be fought against. And when he takes over if trump is impeached, we'll get a realistic chance at positive election of a democrat in 2020 and maybe even senate in 2018 because look how many democrats woke up recently; I think they will have learned the lesson.

[TrekLuver]

16. I really believe that nothing would please Pence more than getting rid of

Trumbannon, Kushie and Propaganda Barbie. He ain't gonna be taking any orders from Trashbag after he's impeached. I think we will still have problems with some things he wants to do but for cripes sake it's not going to be complete upheaval every single day. Plus I believe he is professional enough to talk to world leaders....he understands more how things work I can go on and on.

[HassleCat]

17. Make the Republicans do it.

Democrats should not be involved in any way.

[Maru Kitteh]

18. Bullshit.

Trump should be impeached for his offenses. Let Pence be impeached on his own merit if he proves worthy as well.

[bathroommonkey76]

20. Pence would be like Gerald Ford

He'd pardon Trump and the press would eat him alive. I'd like for him to stay on for the remainder of DT's term.

[Liberty Belle]

21. On what grounds?

Pence would have to commit a high crime or misdemeanor to be impeachable, and even then the Republican Congress probably wouldn't do it.

But Trump has become so dangerous for everyone in the world, reckless with national security matters and enraging our enemies, that even the Republicans will want him gone and with his violations of the emoluments clause he's giving them the rope to hang himself. Or they can just declare him crazy and use the 25th to oust him without need for a messy Senate trial where he'd bloviate and bully his impeachers.

[LisiFFXV]

22. There are no checks on the impeachment power

Congress can decide anything they want is a high crime and misdemeanor in impeachment proceedings. The constitution gives congress the sole power to impeach and try. There is no appeal to the courts. There is no second chance. If the house decides eating a candy bar is a crime worthy of impeachment, and the senate chooses to affirm that, then it's a done deal.

[LisaL]

25. I am pretty sure both congress and senate would be pretty happy with Pence as president.

So there is snowball's chance in hell they will try to impeach him.

[LisiFFXV]

27. You apparently

don't realize just how much chaos in the US and the world his admin is going to cause. Anyone associated with the admin will be fair game when the time comes.

[Kablooie]

28. You will need convince the Republicans, not us.

They will be calling th shots.Democrats can only give support.

[BzaDem]

31. This is silly. As bad as Pence is, Trump is far more of a threat than Pence.

Pence is bad in ways that all right-wing Republicans are bad. To the extent he might have worse views on certain issues, they are issues that generally require Congress to act on. This type of badness is simply a result of the Republican party winning the presidential election in 2016. While it may take years or decades, much of this damage is at least reversible (and in any case we don't have much choice in the matter at the moment).

Trump is different. He is happy to let Republicans get everything they want ideologically, in exchange for looking the other way while Trump permanently destroys democratic norms, and our standing in the world (before we even get to the dangers of world war 3). If Republicans have a moment of sanity where they are willing to remove Trump, Democrats should happily oblige.

[Hekate]

32. There are no grounds to impeach Pence. Good grief. Also -- you have Pence all wrong.

The guy is a theocrat. He has a record as a governor that you might want to look up, and has his own ideas about how to rule the world. He's not a nice man, but he won't be taking calls from Trump. Pence will be too busy rereading The Handmaid's Tale for tips on how to reform our sinful society.

If anyone can find anything actionable on Pence -- that's different.

[no_hypocrisy]

36. Not to play Devil's Advocate, but what if Steve Bannon stays in the Pence WH?

Aren't we still essentially in the same place?