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Mon Feb 20, 2017, 02:20 PM

Anti-Semitism: One Jew's perspective about recent events (long read)

Given the press conferences from the "president", and the odious Holocaust remembrance statement from the White House, I figured I would strike while the iron was hot, meaning people actually seem to care about this topic. So, what is anti-Semitism? Well, the best way to start is to provide the dictionary definition, so, here it is:

hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group (Merriam-Webster)

Seems pretty straightforward, but unfortunately, it is not. It goes way beyond just calling Jews names like kike, Heeb, or yid. It is much more than spray-painting a swastika on a synagogue. I am hoping to shine a light on what this bigotry really is. There are those who refer to it as "the oldest hatred"; personally, I think that title goes to misogyny, but that is for another thread. Anti-Semitism has a long history, though. It has spread throughout the world in various forms and there are very common themes. In my opinion, one of the most odious of anti-Semitic stereotypes is Jews are a devious people who spread lies, disease, fear, and misinformation in order to better our own lives. This particular stereotype has taken on many forms over the millennia. We were accused of spreading the Black Plague. We were/are accused of starting and maintaining the slave trade. We are accused for destabilizing a host of countries (Germany, Russia, England, Spain, Greece, Japan, and, yes, even the US). We are accused of inciting racial tensions by "manipulating" the Civil Rights movement of the 60's. We are/have been accused of poisoning wells, food, and livestock. The list goes on and on. Just with just one stereotype, it is easy to see how it is morphed into a variety of hatreds.

DU'er, TygrBright wrote a piece entitled: Hate Jews, Love Israel: The Logic of American Anti-Semitism and as I explained in a comment, it would have been more aptly named, "Right-Wing American Anti-Semitism." However, some very good points were made:

In the (Christian) Millenialist view, "Israel" doesn't actually have much to do with Jews except insofar as it provides the catalyst for them, as Christ-killing sinners, to get What's Coming To Them when Payback Jesus finally shows up.

The "eggs/basket/drop" strategy is at the heart of the broader American neo-nazi racist version of anti-semitism. If Israel is the Jews' rightful homeland, then it's perfectly logical to convince them to get the hell out of America, and go there. Where, presumably, they and those other non-Aryan non-Christian people will annihilate each other, problem solved.


Finally, there's the more nuanced and sophisticated approach of the old WASP elite. The "gentleman's agreement" they've reached with Israel is, essentially, to be their proxy bulwark maintaining the established order in the Middle East. Their anti-Semitism is the most genteel and subtle of the lot.



This is an excellent breakdown of the right-wing's anti-Semitism. The entire piece is well worth a read, so do so, please. This piece is more about motivations, as opposed to actual examples, but they abound throughout the web, and I am sure most are familiar with a least a few examples from the above descriptions.

But, it is only part of the problem. While no where near as epic as right-wing anti-Semitism, there is anti-Semitism on the left. It, too, must be addressed, not ignored, and it must also be eradicated. A few weeks ago, a British MP claimed anti-Semitism was the fault of the Jews. This type of "blaming the victim" for their own attacks is commonly seen in the "what was she wearing" type of defense we get from those who try to blame the victim of rape for the actual rape. While it happens to all groups, the Jews seem to get the lion's share of the blame when it comes to anti-Semitism; as if somehow we brought it upon ourselves, thus one can see why scores of countries have routinely purged Jews from their borders over the past 2 millennia. And this belief leads directly to another stereotype which is shared by the right and the left, Jews are not loyal citizens. Long after Israel ceased to exist and long before it existed again, Jews have routinely been accused of having loyalties which were not to their leaders, crown, or country. The most obvious was during the lead up to the Second World War, when Jews of Germany were accused of bolshevism and supporting Russia, while Jews in Bolshevist Russia were accused of capitalism and supporting the US, and Jews of the United States were accused of supporting socialism and bringing down the US government.

This constant "Jews are not loyal" to their country is even more pronounced now that Israel exists. Any Jew who doesn't sufficiently or "properly" criticize Israel is considered suspect. The left delights in labeling Jewish legislators Mr. So-and-so (D-Tel Aviv) in order to indicate the lawmaker isn't really loyal to the US, but to Israel. Jews who aren't "on board" with things deemed "the correct answer" are automatically considered treasonous and not loyal to the US. The irony is the left is the group usually considered to be anti American and not loyal to the United States by the right and often complain, bitterly, about it. The right, especially the far-right, are notorious for publishing lists of Jews who are in the government (sometimes they aren't even Jews) in an effort to demonstrate two things, that Jews aren't loyal to the US and their is a not-so-secret Jewish cabal to control the US. Both sides, usually the fringes, share the idea that most, if not all, wars are fought for Israel or at her behest, and therefore, the Jews in power, a larger number compared to our very small overall percentage, is the proof Jews are not loyal to this country and control it through their ranks and the "Jew(ish) Lobby" (AIPAC).

Scads of examples exist about anti-Semitism. Using "Jew" to mean "Jewish" is one example.

  • Behind the Aegis is a Jew. Behind the Aegis is Jewish. Both are correct and neither is offensive.
  • Behind the Aegis is a Jew poster at DU. Behind the Aegis is a Jewish poster at DU. The latter is correct, while the former is a slur.


There are phrases one should avoid with the target of scorn or objection is Jewish, such as "I guess he got his 30 pieces of silver", which is a reference to Judas, and has a long history of implying Jews will sell out anyone for the right price. "She got her pound of flesh.", while this phrase seems to be an innocuous insult about exacting revenge, in truth it from the Shakespeare play, "The Merchant of Venice" and it is how the Jew, Shylock, was accused of wanting the flesh as payback. While not literal, it harkens back to the idea of Jews' love of so deep anything will be accepted as payment, and it touches on the ancient myth of the Blood libel. While I am talking about good ol' Bill, calling a Jew, 'shylock", is a big no-no. "Shyster" is OK, but the other is not, and again for historical reasons going back to the aforementioned play. All of these tie into the anti-Semitic theme about the love Jews have for money, to the point of willingness to betray and even take body parts as payment. Jews are portrayed as cheap and stingy. We hear it in the phrase "He Jewed me.", meaning the person was cheated. Of course, one can also demonstrate the Jews' craftiness with getting a good deal unfairly, but claiming, "Go to this auto dealer, you can Jew them on the price."

The Jewish "affair" with money harkens back to the pre-Middle Ages, when usury laws were "illegal", that is to say, it was illegal for Christians, but the Church wanted it's money, so it had the Jews handle the money; and a stereotype was born. One of the more egregious remarks came from the current "president" not along ago, when he said:

“Black guys counting my money! I hate it. The only kind of people I want counting my money are little short guys that wear yarmulkes every day.”


So when the "leader" of the free world says shit like this, there is a problem. Is it because he is afraid of his supporters as opined in this article posted at DU, Trump too afraid of his own base to denounce antisemitism posted by McCamy Taylor? Or is it he, like so many, doesn't really understand anti-Semitism, as recent searches increased after this two day ignore-fest of anti-Semitism completed, as shown in an article titled: Anti-Semitism searches surge after Trump press conference? But then again, given the past few interviews where he has refused to answer about the rise in anti-Semitism (one occasion bragging about his election win and his "some of his best friends are..." defense by invoking his daughter, the other where he actually told a Jew to shut up and sit down), it really begs the question: Does he really care about anti-Semitism? We know some of his supporters are loving it (Anti-Semites thrilled that Trump refused to denounce Anti-Semitism at presser posted by DetlefK). This, in my opinion leads to a larger question of, "Does anyone care?" That question is asked in an article I posted the other day: Is anti-Semitism on the rise? Does anyone care?.

Like any form of bigotry, anti-Semitism can be murky sometimes and there are quite a few myths (Five myths about anti-Semitism). It can depend on circumstance. It can depend on the speaker or audience. However, sometimes, it is in-your-face-straight-up bigotry!
  • Do not accuse Jews of being more loyal to another country, including Israel, when your only proof is the person is a Jew! BIGOTRY!
  • Do not accuse the "Jew(ish) Lobby" of getting us into war or controlling Congress. BIGOTRY!
  • Do not accuse Jews of controlling the media. BIGOTRY!
  • Do not accuse Jews of being responsible for anti-Semitism enacted against us! BIGOTRY!
  • Do not excuse or otherwise downplay anti-Semitism by bringing up the sins of Israel! BIGOTRY!
  • Do not claim anti-Semitism is not a "real" bigotry like racism, sexism, or homophobia! BIGOTRY!
  • Do not "redefine" anti-Semitism to include others who aren't Jews, or to purposely water it down in order to exclude Jews. BIGOTRY!
  • Do not call a Jewish person a "kapo". This is even dicey in the Jewish community, but if you aren't Jewish, do not compare a Jew to a Nazi sellout, or worse, a Nazi. BIGOTRY!

To show people just how real anti-Semitism is, one only needs to read FBI stats for the past several years, and it is easy to see, that Jews always top the list for anti-Religious crimes...ALWAYS! Even recently, Jews toped the list with this report from ThinkProgress, Hate incidents since Trump was elected. We are only about 2.3% of the US population, yet we make up an incredible amount of the victims of hate crimes, especially per capita. Anti-Semitism is real. Anti-Semitism is not going away. Anti-Semitism is a bigotry with no political boundaries. Anti-Semitism should always be reviled and confronted.

As a final note, if you are not Jewish, do not "'splain'" to us about anti-Semitism and tell us we don't understand it or know what we are talking about. No minority likes to be talked down to someone who is a privileged majority, and that includes Jews. It is always possible for people to be mistaken. It is always possible for Jews to be oversensitive to anti-Semitism, real or imagined. It is OK to disagree with Jews. It is OK to disagree with Jews about the anti-Semitism (or not) of a situation. However, how one does it makes all the difference. If you want to stop all forms of bigotry, be willing to stop anti-Semitism when you see it, too.

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Reply Anti-Semitism: One Jew's perspective about recent events (long read) (Original post)
Behind the Aegis Feb 2017 OP
NRaleighLiberal Feb 2017 #1
Sissyk Feb 2017 #2
Behind the Aegis Feb 2017 #16
Sissyk Feb 2017 #21
stevenleser Feb 2017 #3
ProudLib72 Feb 2017 #4
nycbos Feb 2017 #5
Behind the Aegis Feb 2017 #17
Warren DeMontague Feb 2017 #25
JustAnotherGen Feb 2017 #6
Behind the Aegis Feb 2017 #19
ismnotwasm Feb 2017 #7
JustAnotherGen Feb 2017 #8
Rustyeye77 Feb 2017 #9
TygrBright Feb 2017 #10
Behind the Aegis Feb 2017 #23
JudyM Feb 2017 #49
Behind the Aegis Feb 2017 #53
JudyM Feb 2017 #55
Maeve Feb 2017 #57
Hekate Feb 2017 #11
Blue_Tires Feb 2017 #12
redgreenandblue Feb 2017 #13
Warren DeMontague Feb 2017 #15
Behind the Aegis Feb 2017 #18
leftstreet Feb 2017 #20
redgreenandblue Feb 2017 #29
redgreenandblue Feb 2017 #28
Behind the Aegis Feb 2017 #31
grossproffit Feb 2017 #32
redgreenandblue Feb 2017 #35
Behind the Aegis Feb 2017 #38
redgreenandblue Feb 2017 #41
Behind the Aegis Feb 2017 #48
grossproffit Feb 2017 #39
Warren DeMontague Feb 2017 #33
redgreenandblue Feb 2017 #36
Warren DeMontague Feb 2017 #37
redgreenandblue Feb 2017 #42
Warren DeMontague Feb 2017 #43
redgreenandblue Feb 2017 #44
Warren DeMontague Feb 2017 #45
JudyM Feb 2017 #50
redgreenandblue Feb 2017 #64
Behind the Aegis Feb 2017 #65
redgreenandblue Feb 2017 #66
Behind the Aegis Feb 2017 #67
leftynyc Feb 2017 #68
Princess Turandot Feb 2017 #24
Warren DeMontague Feb 2017 #14
Solly Mack Feb 2017 #22
Gothmog Feb 2017 #26
EllieBC Feb 2017 #27
leftynyc Feb 2017 #30
Skittles Feb 2017 #34
etherealtruth Feb 2017 #40
Mc Mike Feb 2017 #46
Sissyk Feb 2017 #47
JudyM Feb 2017 #51
Behind the Aegis Feb 2017 #52
Maeve Feb 2017 #54
Behind the Aegis Feb 2017 #59
onenote Feb 2017 #56
Behind the Aegis Feb 2017 #58
grossproffit Feb 2017 #60
Behind the Aegis Feb 2017 #62
orleans Feb 2017 #61
Warren DeMontague Feb 2017 #63
JudyM Feb 2017 #69
Mosby Feb 2017 #70
grossproffit Mar 2017 #71
beam me up scottie Mar 2017 #72
R B Garr Mar 2017 #73
beam me up scottie Mar 2017 #74

Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Mon Feb 20, 2017, 02:26 PM

1. Really well done - thanks for your efforts to expand our thinking and understanding.



Bookmarking to give this the time that it needs later on tonight.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Mon Feb 20, 2017, 02:52 PM

2. I read every word,

And will check out all the links you provided on the ones I haven't read.

I must tell you, BtA! I was pretty ignorant about anti-semitism before I found DU and a few posters here, you more than anyone.

I appreciate all the effort and time you put into this for us. I've learned a lot from you, and I call people out on it in everyday life now.

Thank you!

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Response to Sissyk (Reply #2)

Mon Feb 20, 2017, 05:48 PM

16. Thank you for your kind words!

This really made my day. I even read to my husband while he was at work. I hope you enjoy the other articles too. believe it or not, this the pared down version!

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #16)

Mon Feb 20, 2017, 07:02 PM

21. You're most welcome!

Give hubby and hug for me!

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Mon Feb 20, 2017, 03:01 PM

3. Excellent. nt

 

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Mon Feb 20, 2017, 03:10 PM

4. You didn't mention

the prayer for our nation and its leaders. I wonder just how many people are aware that it exists. If I still went to services, though, I would refrain from saying it.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Mon Feb 20, 2017, 03:14 PM

5. This was very well written and explores the issue very well.

I am Jewish myself and I am going to guess I am on the younger side of most posters here. I think I should mention that in my experience I have heard way more anti-semitic rhetoric from the left then from the right but have always known that antisemitism is a cause that unifies the far left and the far right.

For those who don't know right wing antisemitism is often called "the old" antisemitism and antisemitism from the left is called "the new" antisemitism.

However Trump has caused a resurgence of the old antisemitism.

I am glad that Trump supporters actions have caused some on the left to wake up to the issue of antisemitism but the problem as the OP notes goes much deeper. We must confront it especially when it appears in our own ranks.

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Response to nycbos (Reply #5)

Mon Feb 20, 2017, 05:53 PM

17. I agree with you that the new "president" is partly responsible for a surge in anti-Semitism.

To me, it is even more clear because he refuses to talk about, even condemn it, so it is no surprise anti-Semites are jumping for joy. When it comes to anti-Semitism, we certainly are going to see more of it coming from the right, so much so, it almost seems it is the only kind which exists, but as you said, it is in our ranks too and must be confronted.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #17)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 12:34 AM

25. He's brought out all sorts of ugliness, no question.

And there has unquestionably been a large uptick in Anti-Semitism associated with him and his slimy peeps.

On the left it strikes me as, sadly, "same as it ever was". Maybe the bullshit coming out of Trump's corner will cause people on our side to soul-search or self-evaluate more. i dont know.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Mon Feb 20, 2017, 03:14 PM

6. And just today . . .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141708233


More bomb threats. It's how quickly language leads to violence. *sigh*

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #6)

Mon Feb 20, 2017, 06:13 PM

19. I am just afraid I will wake up soon and read DU and it won't be a threat but an actual event.

I still have Orlando burned into my memories and I really don't want to have to add something like it involving Jews to my mental playlist.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Mon Feb 20, 2017, 03:14 PM

7. Kick and recommend to infinity

thank you BtA

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #7)

Mon Feb 20, 2017, 03:15 PM

8. Plus 1000

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Mon Feb 20, 2017, 03:19 PM

9. Intelligent, logical , insightful post.



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Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Mon Feb 20, 2017, 03:31 PM

10. Thank you. And thank you for the shout-out.

I can definitely resonate with the "Jews are not loyal citizens" form of anti-Semitism as I have family members who suffered from similar discrimination related to being Roman Catholic in the 1950s and 60s, when it was feared that a RC, if elected to public office, would "take orders from the Pope first." Jewish people, presumably, would thus be feared as "taking orders from Israel first," which would be the same kind of offensive.

This is an excellent awareness-raising on a topic that really NEEDS awareness raising right now. Our Executive Branch is now riddled with appointed staff with a clear history of subscribing to anti-Semitic groups, causes, communications vehicles, and policies. The presence of a prominent Jewish staffer or two seems directed very specifically at Israel-related foreign policy, without any wider brief to address the Administration's standing and relationship with American Jewish communities.

The net effect looks to me like a very right-wing implementation of anti-Semitism, but in order to push back, Americans are going to have to address all kinds of anti-Semitism, including the Left's own history of conscious and subconscious bias and bigotry.

Not being Jewish, I've tried to stay the hell out of the discussion about the complexity of American Jews' relationship to Israel. That discussion is a lightning rod for many varieties of anti-Semitism, but I also believe that it's helpful to non-Jews on the left to be aware of that complexity and the diversity of viewpoints within American Jewish communities.

In your opinion/experience, BtA, is there a way to usefully separate the discussion of the broad anti-Semitism experienced by American Jews, from the discussion of American foreign policy in relationship to Israel? And if so, what would that be?

curiously,
Bright

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Response to TygrBright (Reply #10)

Mon Feb 20, 2017, 10:01 PM

23. Again, you bring up some good points.

That anti-Catholic rhetoric was very similar and like anti-Semitism, goes way back into the history of our country. I was actually shocked at the level of anti-Catholic attitudes when I moved to Oklahoma. I had never seen it up close and personal.

I can understand your hesitation at entering conversations about the complexity of the American Jewish experience and our relationship with Israel. Personally, I would simply suggest entering those discussions with respect and open ears. I am that way when discussing issues involving African-Americans, and many people have learned to do with the GLBT community (sadly, not as much with the "T" part of our community). When it comes to Israel, knowing a bit more than surface info about the I/P situation is important, but it is just as important to actually know about Israel, so as not to define it as solely one thing. I heavily and earnestly suggest avoiding Holocaust and Nazi references. It is bad enough when Jews do it, but when it is someone who isn't Jewish, it really sets us on our ears. It blurs the lines of criticism and anti-Semitism, and that is very unhelpful. Also, be ready for push-back, but don't let it hinder you from discussions. This can be a helpful site: http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/ I also like "The Forward" which is a Jewish newspaper and is left-leaning.

Thanks again for your contributions.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #23)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 03:44 PM

49. Excellent response. And understated. I also appreciate your time and thought in putting together

your admirably concise and cogent OP!

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Response to JudyM (Reply #49)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 04:25 PM

53. Thanks!

I appreciate it. Sometimes, it seems like an uphill battle, or tilting at windmills. However, I am hoping with this blatant anti-Semitism more people will wake up to the real threat of anti-Semitism and address it head-on, it would be even better if they do it when the perpetrators are on our side of the aisle.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #53)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 04:38 PM

55. Absolutely. The OP couldn't have been more timely.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #23)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 05:00 PM

57. BTW, in re:Oklahoma

We lived there in the early 1980's and I remember an article I read of a man whose family was driven out of the first place they started to settle in the territory days because someone saw a crucifix in their belongings. There was a mob at their door that night.
And I was asked by a child "Are you Mexican or are you white?"--I'm Irish, green-eyed and pale but had long almost-black hair; bigotry needs to put everyone in a place....
Not that Ohio is that much better; just a little less obvious...most of the time. Or that used to be true.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Mon Feb 20, 2017, 03:43 PM

11. Aegis, this is beautifully done. I hope many people read it.

to both you and TygrBright

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Mon Feb 20, 2017, 03:59 PM

12. In the irony of ironies,

Glenn Greenwald of all people has repeatedly tweeted that it's impossible for the Trump administration to be anti-Semitic because of Kushner's presence...

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Mon Feb 20, 2017, 04:41 PM

13. "Do not 'redefine' anti-Semitism to include others who aren't Jews" - Then why choose a terminology

which implies exactly that?

The word "Semite" means something, and it isn't identical with "Jewish". Why not call it "anti-Judaism" instead?

Furthermore:

"Do not accuse Jews of being responsible for anti-Semitism enacted against us! BIGOTRY!
Do not excuse or otherwise downplay anti-Semitism by bringing up the sins of Israel! BIGOTRY!"

A certain segment of the left routinely points out that it is impossible for African Americans to be racist/bigoted against whites, as racism equals prejudice plus power. Applying the same logic to the Middle East conflict would imply that it is impossible for, say, a person in the occupied territories in the Gaza strip to be anti-Semitic in any meaningful sense. Would you agree?

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #13)

Mon Feb 20, 2017, 05:44 PM

15. in answer to your first point, words and phrases mean what they mean.

That's how language works.

Anti-Semitism is, for all intents and purposes, linguistically accepted universally as meaning "Anti-Judaism", so I'm not really sure why the usage bothers you. Yes, the meaning of Semite is different and the etymology is interesting, but again.. fighting with language as it sits in peoples' collective brains and is used in the real world is like arguing with the tides.


As for your second point, one has to accept assertion #1 to move on to assertion #2. I suspect most would believe it is possible for AA to be bigoted against White People, they would take issue with the use of the word "racism"- not the same thing.

I'm not sure why it's so important to excuse the conflation of Anti-Semitism with objection to Israel's policies, in any context. Is it similarly okay for Israelis to hate all Muslims because of terror attacks carried out by Muslim Arabs?

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #15)

Mon Feb 20, 2017, 06:10 PM

18. Thanks for adressing that bit of spohistry.

There are two types who engage in it, those who really don't know, like Dr. Nick Rivera, when he complained about the use of the word "inflammable". And, then, well, I explained it in the OP. If someone professed to love children, their own or others, then someone came along and called them a "pedophile". The 'target" would likely freak the fuck out. It wouldn't matter if the person saying it turned around and said, "well, pedo- means "child" and -phile means "lover of", so I don't see what the problem is with using a word that is etymologically correct."


As for the second point, you addressed that well too. There is also the issue of personal racism verses the concept of societal and institutional racism. The conflation of anti-Semitism and objection to Israel/Israeli policies is something which happens both ways, but I more often see people "pre-emptively" complaining about "being called an anti-Semite", then I see people actually doing it.

ETA: I just thought about it and remembered I was confronted one time with "why use the term "homophobia", when it really means "fear of man" or "fear of sameness"?"

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #18)

Mon Feb 20, 2017, 06:44 PM

20. !!

And, then, well, I explained it in the OP. If someone professed to love children, their own or others, then someone came along and called them a "pedophile". The 'target" would likely freak the fuck out. It wouldn't matter if the person saying it turned around and said, "well, pedo- means "child" and -phile means "lover of", so I don't see what the problem is with using a word that is etymologically correct."


What an outstanding example!


DURec for your OP

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #15)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 05:34 AM

28. The language can be problematic precisely because there is substantial discrimination

against other Semites. Much bigotry against Arabs exists in western countries and also in Israel or in Iran, where Arabs are a form of underclass.

If, now, in the context of discussions of anti-Semitism, an Arabic person who experiences discrimination were to point out "I'm a Semite", they would be linguistically correct to do so. But the OP would classify that as an instance of bigotry.

This is not an academic example. The only few times I have in fact seen this distinction become relevant in practice were precisely cases in which a person of Arabic origin attempted to claim the term "anti-Semitism" for themselves to describe a factually existing discrimination against them. If the OP classifies such as an act of bigotry one could then argue that this in turn is minimizing the experience of said individual. In short, the imprecise use of language can be problematic because some may see it as an attempt to downplay discrimination against other individuals against which discrimination also factually exists (as in "Semites, but not the kind that you are".

As for the second point: There have been plenty of threads on DU (seemingly by a faction that lost their shit because Bernie Sanders used the phrase "identity politics", but I digress...) where people have invoked white supremacy in an attempt to "provide a broader perspective" on, for instance, events like the assassination of police at a BLM protest or riots as a response to police violence. So no, it is not only about language. It is ultimately about the dynamics of power and violence. I'd be interested in the OPs take on said events. Should we ever acknowledge that such a broader perspective for attitudes or behaviors may exist? Or is it "bigotry against whites" to express that people in certain African American communities had solid reasons to engage in rioting?


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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #28)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 06:01 AM

31. More sophistry.

If, now, in the context of discussions of anti-Semitism, an Arabic person who experiences discrimination were to point out "I'm a Semite", they would be linguistically correct to do so. But the OP would classify that as an instance of bigotry.

While they would be correct to point out they are "Semitic" it doesn't change the meaning of "anti-Semitism". You claim it isn't an academic example, and you are correct, thus the use of the word "sophistry." It is a fallacious argument meant to distract and misinform. According to you, and those like you, if someone attacked Ivanka Trump, calling her a "filthy kike", she wouldn't be a victim of anti-Semitism because she isn't a "Semite". Not all victims of anti-Semitism are "Semites", because that isn't the meaning of the word. If you are so concerned about the imprecise nature of language, then would you mind, assuming you love children, being called a "pedophile"? After all, that word means "lover of children". Or, would you see it as "bullshit" trying to cast aspersions about you as a person, and changing the subject in order to take away from whatever argument you were making?

Discrimination against Arabs exists, it simply doesn't have a "fancy" name. All your argument is, well, nothing but a strawman. Do you use they same "logic" when someone uses the term "Islamophobia"? Surely you understand the word really means "fear of Islam" and not "discrimination, prejudice, and/or hate against Muslims"? Right?!

As for your last paragraph...jingling keys; unoriginal. You are trying to distract from another point I made and that is commenting on the "evils" of Israel doesn't change the nature of anti-Semitism. When anti-Semitism is committed, if your first comment is "but...but...Israel" it is a form of anti-Semitism, as much as an act of Islamophobia followed by "but...but...9-11" is Islamophobic (assuming you understand the meaning of that word). The concept is the person is trying to move the conversation from an act of bigotry, and in essence, blame the victim for said attack.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #31)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 06:28 AM

32. +1 The end.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #31)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 06:45 AM

35. Again, the only times I have ever seen people broaden the usual definition of the word, it was done

to include Arabs. More often than not, it was done by Arabs, as an attempt to draw attention to discrimination against them. According to your thesis, the Arabs doing so are engaging in an act of bigotry. And therein lies the core of the matter. It is not merely a discussion of terminology. You are accusing a specific group of people, Arabs who seek to be included in the definition of "anti-Semitism", not only of falsely using language, but of being bigots. I wonder why.

As for blaming the victim: So you would agree that invoking white supremacy to justify attacks on cops in the US is wrong?

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #35)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 06:54 AM

38. You are an Arab?

Because the only time I have ever seen anyone "broaden" the actual definition of the word is to distract from the group which is targeted, Jews. It isn't a matter of trying to "draw attention to discrimination against Arabs" but rather a method to draw attention away from the actual victims, Jews.

"You are accusing a specific group of people, Arabs who seek to be included in the definition of "anti-Semitism", not only of falsely using language, but of being bigots. I wonder why."

This is known as a "strawman argument", a logical fallacy. At no point did I ever say anything like what you are claiming. You simply created your own narrative, then declared yourself "correct" and further try to impugn me as the actual bigot.

"As for blaming the victim: So you would agree that invoking white supremacy to justify attacks on cops in the US is wrong? "

Are you for real?! Seems anti-Semitism isn't the only thing for which you are struggling to understand, or rather, obfuscate.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #38)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 08:14 AM

41. It appears we have seen different things then.

"This is known as a "strawman argument", a logical fallacy. At no point did I ever say anything like what you are claiming. You simply created your own narrative, then declared yourself "correct" and further try to impugn me as the actual bigot. " - Project much?

At least you are willing to acknowledge that bigotry against Arabs exists. That seems to be something that you are struggling to understand...

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #41)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 02:17 PM

48. I guess so.

There is no projection, and anyone reading your exchange will clearly see it.

As for acknowledging bigotry, well, that is where the projection comes in because you are projecting onto me, what is more obviously true, it is you who is struggling to understand bigotry against Jews. It is the only logical way to explain your sub-thread of jingling keys.

Visual aides are always so helpful.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #35)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 06:56 AM

39. Why are you so adamant in wanting to change the meaning of anti-Semitism?

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #28)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 06:39 AM

33. okay, tell me exactly how Jews deserve hate because, Israel.

I mean, lets cut to ye olde chase, shall we?

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #33)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 06:45 AM

36. Um, no?

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #36)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 06:48 AM

37. you seem to desperately want to make a point, and yet you're afraid to actually come out

and elucidate it in so many words.

Oh, well.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #37)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 08:22 AM

42. My point: Bigotry against Arabs exists, both on a systemic and individual level, and is a problem

not only in the US.

And: The OP has crafted a narrative in which certain forms in which such bigotry might be acknowledged are defined as bigotry.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #42)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 08:27 AM

43. You're derailing. This thread is about Anti-Semitism.

The fact that you so clearly obejct to a thread about Anti-Semitism, speaks volumes.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #43)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 08:39 AM

44. You are projecting. The OP has defined one very specific act as being bigoted, the factuality

of which is at least debatable.

The fact that you so clearly object to any mention of bigotry against Arabs speaks volumes.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #44)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 08:59 AM

45. I don't.

but it's not on topic. The topic of this thread is Anti-Semitism, which is a real problem, as are people making excuses for it because they have a laundry list of "Jewish crimes" which mean "Jews deserve it".

It's hardly anything new.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #42)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 03:59 PM

50. This is a serious thread about a serious issue and taking issue with it as you are strikes others

as a particularly insensitive derailment illustrative of the subject of the the OP.



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Response to JudyM (Reply #50)

Thu Feb 23, 2017, 05:57 AM

64. What I take issue with is when people slip trace amount of a nationalistic ideology into what is

otherwise a reasonable argument and then scream when they are called out on it. Furthermore, I always find it to be a red flag when people immediately lose their shit at the mere mention of Arabs.

"Do not "redefine" anti-Semitism to include others who aren't Jews,"

There is only one other "Semitic" group that is of practical relevance in the context of this statement, and that group is Arabs. Since the OP clearly means
"Do not "redefine" anti-Semitism to include Arabs," it is rather telling that they would be deliberately vague on this point.

"Do not excuse or otherwise downplay anti-Semitism by bringing up the sins of Israel! "

It is no secret that there is an ongoing conflict between Jews and Arabs in Israel, and that bigotry is a two-way street in the context of that conflict. What the OP has done is to define any acknowledgement of this two-way street as a form of bigotry and therefore asserted a form of moral high-ground for one side of this conflict.

Look, I am all for leaving Israel out of the discussion. There is no reason whatsoever to draw a line between the vandalization of Jewish graves in the US and a 15 year old boy in the Gaza strip who threw a rock at a window after Nethanyahu once again decided to "mow the lawn". But the OP has done exactly that, in a subtle way.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #64)

Thu Feb 23, 2017, 06:21 AM

65. You are describing your own motivations.

It is very clear to people reading your tripe, the real issue is yours with anti-Semitism. Not one person "lost their shit" at the "mere mention" of Arabs; that is your strawman and it is being used for a very specific reason; cast dispersions on anyone who dares speak out on anti-Semitism.

Your pathetic, and unoriginal, argument is falling on deaf ears because it is you who is trying to redefine a word and doing exactly what I pointed out in the OP. So your bullshit assertion my remarks was a "hidden" way to exclude Arabs is all on you. If you want to play that game, I can assert the real reason you are doing this is because the very idea of discrimination against Jews is a foreign concept to you because you don't see Jews as a "real" minority, and therefore, anti-Semitism, isn't a "real" form of bigotry. See how strawman arguments work?

"It is no secret that there is an ongoing conflict between Jews and Arabs in Israel, and that bigotry is a two-way street in the context of that conflict. What the OP has done is to define any acknowledgement of this two-way street as a form of bigotry and therefore asserted a form of moral high-ground for one side of this conflict. "

This is fucking laughable on so many levels, but falls right into the wheelhouse of the bullshit you are spreading. Here, need an example:

TOPIC: Jewish cemeteries have been vandalized and that is atrocious.

RESPONSE: Not to mention shooting kids in the back from 60 yards away over a border and calling it self defense


That is an example of using "but...but...Israel" to distract from anti-Semitism. How incredible you'd even talk about the vandalized cemeteries and someone provided an example of what I was discussing, something you are trying to claim isn't true. BTW, this happened mere hours ago. So the ones making those comparisons are you, that poster, and those who can't stand there is a "special" name for hatred of Jews. Why is that?


ETA: It should be noted by all you made this about "nationalistic ideology". What a 'strange' choice of words to describe a Jewish AMERICAN talking about ANTI-SEMITISM.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #65)

Thu Feb 23, 2017, 06:43 AM

66. I am not someone you can bully, but thanks for playing.

"That is an example of using "but...but...Israel" to distract from anti-Semitism"

So, at least, we are in agreement that Israel should best be left out of the discussion then?

"I can assert the real reason you are doing this is because the very idea of discrimination against Jews is a foreign concept to you because you don't see Jews as a "real" minority, and therefore, anti-Semitism, isn't a "real" form of bigotry."

I have been adamant in calling bullshit on people who tried to label Bernie Sanders as "just another white guy" during the primaries, so there.

"It should be noted by all you made this about "nationalistic ideology". What a 'strange' choice of words to describe a Jewish AMERICAN talking about ANTI-SEMITISM."

Right here on DU, I have seen people classify "not thinking that Jewish is a nationality" as a form of anti-Semitism. We are in agreement that this is bullshit then?

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #66)

Thu Feb 23, 2017, 06:52 AM

67. Neither am I.

Perhaps you thought otherwise.

"I can assert the real reason you are doing this is because the very idea of discrimination against Jews is a foreign concept to you because you don't see Jews as a "real" minority, and therefore, anti-Semitism, isn't a "real" form of bigotry."

I have been adamant in calling bullshit on people who tried to label Bernie Sanders as "just another white guy" during the primaries, so there.


LOL! You do realize that quote is in this actual thread, right? Of course, if you had bothered to provide the entire quote, it would have included:

See how strawman arguments work?


I was exemplifying your bullshit assumptions and arguments by making one of my own; basically, I created a strawman argument to show how easy it was and how it doesn't have shit to do with the actual discussion.

"It should be noted by all you made this about "nationalistic ideology". What a 'strange' choice of words to describe a Jewish AMERICAN talking about ANTI-SEMITISM."

Right here on DU, I have seen people classify "not thinking that Jewish is a nationality" as a form of anti-Semitism. We are in agreement that this is bullshit then?


LOOK everyone! I found my keys! JINGLE! JINGLE!

So, you are arguing points some "other person", not in this thread, not me, has made and that is the reason for your massive derailment attempt? Whatever. I will say, visual aids are ever so helpful, and you have allowed this thread to garner even more views and recommendations. So, thank-you.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #66)

Thu Feb 23, 2017, 06:56 AM

68. Would you mind linking me

 

to ANY of the numerous threads about the anti-Muslim problems here in the US and Europe where you jumped in to remind everyone about anti-semitism or any other hatred out there? Or do you only save that deflection when the subject is Jews?

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #13)

Mon Feb 20, 2017, 11:55 PM

24. The term 'anti-Semitism' entered the political lexicon in 1879..

when a German named Wilhelm Marr founded an organization called 'The League of Anti-Semites'. Its stated purpose was to save the 'German fatherland' from 'Judaisation', liberating it from the 'oppressive weight of Jewish influence'. He apparently chose the term 'anti-Semitism', rather than a term including the word 'Jew', in order to refer to Jewish Germans as a 'racial' group, as opposed to a religion.

According to the Online Etymology Dictionary, that was the first time that phrase entered the German and shortly thereafter, the English lexicon.

In the 21st Century, it is used exactly as it has always been used.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Mon Feb 20, 2017, 05:00 PM

14. kick and rec

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Mon Feb 20, 2017, 07:12 PM

22. K&R

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 12:42 AM

26. I will read later

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 02:32 AM

27. This is amazing! Thank you for taking the time to type this up!

I'm bookmarking it as this perfectly and concisely is what I have wanted to say to people sometimes. Or how I've wanted to explain antisemitism to them. Thank you!!!

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 05:47 AM

30. Kick and highly recommend

 

A terrific read. Thanks, BTA

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 06:44 AM

34. well done, Behind the Aegis

excellent assessment

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 07:34 AM

40. When I was young I had faith in the American public...

... I believed we were moving forward and away from the "evil" and stupidity of bigotry. Now, in my 50s it has become apparent the fight has just begun.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 11:04 AM

46. You have a ton of good discussion topics in the o.p.

I'm catholic, and have been impressed for decades by the disproportionately large contribution to making things better in this country that come from people who are religiously observant or secular/culturally Jewish. In progressive social movements, politics, philosophy, academics, justice, journalism, people from that small 2.3% of the population fight to make things better for the whole country.

Re antisemitism, watching out for it as a key warning sign can be useful. If a social or political movement springs up and starts making a splash, says things that seem progressive or appears to do in-depth investigative reporting, but seems a bit murky and tough to pin down -- the key defining moment that lets me peg them, the moment that sets all the alarm bells off and cements that outfit as bad guys in my mind, is the moment that they say something anti-semitic. As soon as they say 'because the Jews' or 'it's the Jews', it's a key tip off. It instantly shows who they are.

Years ago, there were quite a few pro-Alex Jones posts on this site, he was disguising himself as a force 'against fascism'. But watching him blame activities coming out of the nazi bush family on the Rothschilds, blame 9/11 on Israel, blame attacks on synagogues in Mumbai on the Mossad, it was clear that he was a pro-nazi repug bircher. It took a while to become an accepted fact here that Jones was working for the bad guys, but the sub rosa antisemitism was a clear tip off, though some post-ers who I thought weren't right wing trolls were dazzled by the 'anti' bush stuff coming from Jones' trash outfits.

Groups like his always take high profile incidents that come from covert workings of our country's far right wasp financial power structure -- or come from the far righties in our intel that serve that power structure, or from underground nazi movements that are supported by the monied wasp power brokers or their rightie intel servants -- they always take those incidents for a spin and try to pin them on 'the Jews'. They always have a cartoon version of history and reality that they're willing to offer the public, pure propagandic psyops, but the second they say 'it's the Jews' they show they're working for the nazis who are the real villains. They excuse the actual bad guys who they work for, muddy the waters about the guilt of the wasp nazis, and go after a target that those nazis want to go after. Their true aim is to scapegoat the Jewish people, all of whom they're just itching to attack, anyway.

---------------------------

Regarding the '30 pieces of silver' slur, the key thing that tipped me off that Flynn was a nazi repug bircher (que some naysayer to tell me he's a 'registered Dem'. Don't bother.) was when he 'accidentally' retweeted an anti-semitic statement from some nazi zero called 'St Bibiana @30piecesofAG'.

7/24/16, Flynn anti-semitic tweet (notice how it's all about Flynn covering up for team dRumpf's russian buddies hacking our elections):

"Less than a week after giving an impassioned speech at the Republican National Convention, retired Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn is catching heat for sharing with his Twitter followers — as Donald Trump has in the past — an anti-Semitic message.
Flynn was responding Sunday to an assertion by Robby Mook, Hillary Clinton’s campaign manager, on CNN that Russia was behind the hack and release of tens of thousands of internal Democratic National Committee emails last week.
“The corrupt Democratic machine will do and say anything to get #NeverHillary into power. This is a new low,” he tweeted, sharing a link to a tweet from a user named Saint Bibiana (@30PiecesofAG_) who wrote “>Cnn implicated. ‘The USSR is to blame!’ … Not anymore, Jews. Not anymore.” "

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/michael-flynn-twitter-226091

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 01:00 PM

47. Kicking

I just finished reading some of the links and wanted others to have that opportunity also.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 04:10 PM

51. And the hits just keep on coming. The latest from Sean Spicer...

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Response to JudyM (Reply #51)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 04:21 PM

52. Right?

How dare we speak out about a tepid, half-ass response after the FOURTH string of attacks.



Always so fun when non-Jews 'splain' to us the real meaning of anti-Semitism.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 04:36 PM

54. I have known for some time that you are a thoughtful and intelligent poster

I appreciate reading a more in-depth teatise proving such.

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Response to Maeve (Reply #54)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 05:20 PM

59. Aw shucks.

What a nice thing to say. I am glad you enjoyed it. Believe it or not, this is the pared down version. LOL!

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 04:44 PM

56. Thanks.

I particularly appreciated the last portion where you address non-Jews telling Jews what they should fear. I've experienced it from both the left and the right. On the right, I've had a non-Jewish friend defend restrictions on Muslim immigration and refugees by saying "of all people, you should support these restrictions since they are aimed at people who want to harm you." Well, I don't need a non-Jew telling me, an American Jew, who I need to fear. I am far less concerned about "Sharia law" limiting my religious freedom than I am about a president who appoints enablers of anti-Semitic tropes to his inner circle and who is insensitive to the fact that this is a pluralistic nation, not a "Christian" one.

At the same time, I've also had the experience of hearing fellow progressives declare any Jew who voted for Trump to be a "Nazi" or to be facilitating a new Holocaust. While I think that Jews who supported Trump were making a bad choice, I think that discussion can only be effective if handled with reasoned arguments, not hyperbole and insult. So my message to them (apologies in advance) is to spare me the efforts to be more Catholic than the Pope.

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Response to onenote (Reply #56)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 05:16 PM

58. Thank you for your examples!!

Like you, I don't fear "Sharia Law" I am more afraid of "Chistianist" law! And, as Jews, we should be familiar with people in need needing to get the hell out of dodge!

Your second example is also a good one. It is amazing how many times people want to talk about the "bad" Jews who elected the new "president". Hello?! We are 2.2% of the population...and that's all Jews. Of those who voted, 70% went to Clinton, the other 23% to the "president", and when one starts looking at the actual numbers, that's fucking drop in the bucket.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 10:09 PM

60. I'm saddened that this topic doesn't have 200+ recs.

Actually, I'm sickened by it.

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Response to grossproffit (Reply #60)

Wed Feb 22, 2017, 01:28 AM

62. Actually, I am shocked it has 50!

I am heartened to see quite a few people understand the severity of anti-Semitism and with only one person trying to talk about everything but anti-Semitism, I am also very happy how well-received it was.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Tue Feb 21, 2017, 10:54 PM

61. great post n/t

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Thu Feb 23, 2017, 03:56 AM

63. Kick

seems like this could be some useful information for some folks right about now.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Thu Feb 23, 2017, 10:46 AM

69. Kick.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Fri Mar 3, 2017, 03:33 PM

71. Kicked

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Sun Mar 19, 2017, 02:46 AM

72. Thanks for collecting all of this information and breaking it down.

This is an excellent resource and it's going to come in handy. Is it okay if I cite it elsewhere?


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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #72)

Sun Mar 19, 2017, 01:26 PM

73. Didn't Bernie admonish a Latina woman for

bringing up her ethnicity? His point was that identity politics is apparently very low on his list of legitimate subjects, so you should take his lead and not spread this to other sites.

Interesting that you kicked this month old thread.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)

Sun Mar 19, 2017, 05:16 PM

74. Do you find that people still try to accuse Jews of being the bigots when you bring this up?

I frequently notice this tactic when I try to discuss anti-Semitism.

I find it odd that some folks insist on bringing up Jewish people and attempt to vilify THEM whenever we discuss anti-Semitism.

Why would anyone want to distract people from focusing on the fact that anti-Semitism and hate crimes are on the rise in Trump's Amerikkka? Why accuse Jews of bigotry when the subject is bigotry and hatred against Jews?

That's what Trump and other anti-Semitic bigots did on Holocaust Remembrance Day - they didn't acknowledge that Jews were the focus. They refused to even mention them by name and tried to deflect by bringing up others who were also killed in camps. In fact I believe the ADL called them out on it. Despicable.

That's actually the same thing racists do when confronted with facts about racism - they try to turn it around on POC. I find that's a common tactic whenever racism against Obama is discussed - the deplorables accuse the president of being the racist.

Whenever bigotry is the topic it seems there's always at least one person who will point their finger at the black/Jewish/Hispanic/Muslim man and claim HE'S the one who has a problem - even when it's being discussed on a liberal forum.

Interesting.

We have a long way to go, my friend.

I'm happy to be back and thrilled to see you're still fighting the good fight.




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