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Sun Mar 5, 2017, 09:14 AM

 

How the extreme left gave us Nixon, Bush and now Trump

Democrats have lost elections that they should have won in 1968, 2000 and now last year because too many on the left either didn't vote or voted for a third party candidate with no chance of winning because the Democratic candidate wasn't pure enough for them.

As any political analyst will tell you, most elections are won in the middle, not at the extremes of right or left. Thus, any Senator, Governor, Member of Congress, Mayor or President needs to do is win over enough of these centrist/moderate/independent voters to add to their base to achieve 51% and victory. The larger or more secure the base is, the fewer of these independents need to be won over.

The GOP has had a large & secure base for over 50 years. Thus, they don't need to win over that many moderates in order to win elections.

The same is not true of Democrats. Too often many in the base make the perfect the enemy of the good and abandon the Dems either by not voting or voting for a third party candidate. Thus, the Dems are more and more forced to pander to centrist/moderate voters to get re-elected. Which in turn alienates the base even more and the cycle repeats itself.

Case in point, during the run up to the Iraq war, Tom Daschle was being vilified daily by Rush Limbaugh, FAUX News and others in the right wing media. However, many on the left abandoned him because he wasn't stronger in fighting Bush on the war. In the end Daschle was left twisting in the wind and lost re-election.

The net result is that over the years Democratic incumbents on average have had to become more moderate while GOP incumbents have not.

While no candidate or political party is owed anyone's vote, setting the bar too high on certain issues or looking at the glass as half empty rather than as half full can be damaging overall. Why should any Democratic incumbent stick their neck out on certain issues knowing that in the end they will have to accept some compromise, because that is the way our system works, and then will be abandoned by their base because they accepted said compromise. The safer path it to not take a chance in the first place and just tack to the middle. Many say that Democrats have no backbone but the real problem is that many on the left don't have their backs. In contrast those on the right will defend their candidates against anything.

Therefore, the insistence by some on the left for 100% ideological purity can only serve to marginalize themselves. If the left abandons someone who has a 85%-90% record of voting for progressive legislation, because of the 10% to 15% that they didn't; they why should any incumbent bother to listen to the base. The end result is that the left becomes more and more marginalized because incumbents need to more and more go after the middle to win.

Now to anyone here who either stayed home in November or voted for Jill Stein, do you really think the country is better off now than if Hillary Clinton were President?

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Reply How the extreme left gave us Nixon, Bush and now Trump (Original post)
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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 09:18 AM

1. ...

 

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 09:20 AM

2. Russia, comey , voter suppression

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 09:27 AM

8. All true

 

But they wouldn't have made a difference is the Dems had a secure and loyal base.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #8)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 10:33 AM

29. ...and rigged election components to make it all moot....nt

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Response to 2naSalit (Reply #29)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 06:25 AM

236. No if more on the extreme left came our and voted

 

instead of sitting on their ideological high horse, the rigged components would have been moot.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #236)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 10:23 AM

256. Riiiight.....nt

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #236)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 04:11 PM

281. If Dems refuse to take moral positions, we have nobody to vote for.

And then they lose. They need to decide whether lining their pockets during a short term in office is more important than taking power for the long term.

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Response to lagomorph777 (Reply #281)

Tue Mar 7, 2017, 06:11 AM

309. Wow

 

You really missed the point. It is that kind of thinking that is at the core of this problem.

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Response to lagomorph777 (Reply #281)

Tue Mar 7, 2017, 10:35 AM

321. And let me guess... which candidate is the only one in history to have "moral positions?"

The one that is only a democrat when he needs the cred of a major party. amirite?

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Response to lagomorph777 (Reply #281)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 07:37 PM

402. This is why trump is about to destroy the human race, thanks for your purity

it killed us all

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #236)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 07:36 PM

401. 100% accurate.

BTW, they are gonna do it again 2018., there is no chance we survive it twice,.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #8)

Tue Mar 7, 2017, 10:39 AM

325. I hear that's why Hitler rose to power - the lack of a truly inspirational candidate

in the other party, so the base really wasn't motivated.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #325)

Tue Mar 7, 2017, 07:25 PM

342. Actually it was a very similar situation

 

The left split and refused to unify against the Nazis.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #342)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 07:52 AM

365. So does history blame Hitler's opponent for being "less likeable" or charismatic for his rise?

The onset of the Great Depression and the economic chaos of the 1930s didn't factor in as strongly?

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #365)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 07:34 PM

400. Not that I know of

 

Since the Nazis never won a majority of the votes, the fact that those on the left failed to unite against him has a greater share of responsibility.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #8)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 11:07 AM

520. Yeah - 3 million more votes even with voter suppression in key states

The only major demographic that dissed Hillary was white men.

The rest don't really count?

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 04:06 PM

92. Stein still played a role

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #92)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 06:37 AM

238. A meme I made

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Response to paels (Reply #238)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 09:52 AM

249. A vote for Stein was a vote for Trump

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #249)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 11:51 PM

303. Exactly: since she COULD NOT WIN it was a WASTED vote. n/t

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Response to Beartracks (Reply #303)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 07:39 PM

403. People who understand what a 2 party system is and care about the planet would NEVER

vote 3rd party or stay home.

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Response to paels (Reply #238)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 12:59 PM

265. That graphic perfectly illustrates Jill Stein and the Unicorn Humpers.

and everything that is wrong with them.

I'm stealing it.



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Response to Maru Kitteh (Reply #265)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 03:55 PM

279. I love it AND hate it at the same time. It's dead-on target!

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Response to paels (Reply #238)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 03:53 PM

278. Dreamers



Dreamers
They never learn
They never learn
Beyond the point
Of no return
Of no return
And it's too late
The damage is done
The damage is done

This goes
Beyond me
Beyond you
The white room
By window
Where the sun goes
Through
We are
Just happy to serve
Just happy to serve
You

efil ym fo flaH
efil ym fo flaH
efil ym fo flaH
efil ym fo flaH
efil ym fo flaH
efil ym fo flaH
efil ym fo flaH
efil ym fo flaH

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 04:55 PM

107. All fucking excuses for the far left sticking their heads in the sand.

There was a clear choice to be made between only two people that could
actually become President, many on the far left chose unwisely.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #107)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 06:24 PM

142. Facts aren't excuses

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #142)

Tue Mar 7, 2017, 10:36 AM

322. Like the fact Hillary won more votes than any candidate but Obama in '08?

Like that fact?

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #322)

Tue Mar 7, 2017, 10:38 AM

324. Yeap, they like to ignore those little facts too

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #456)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 08:22 AM

517. Thank you for the correction. (nt)

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #107)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 10:42 PM

188. Hillary won by 3 million votes.

Soooo,

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Response to kacekwl (Reply #188)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 08:03 PM

439. Why bring up facts?

 

It is funny watching this small band of Blame Anyone get owned by the majority of lefties on this site. A real joy.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 09:21 AM

3. Watch and learn


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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 09:22 AM

4. Oh, bullshit.

 

Are you too busy gnawing your own ankle to see how republicans operate?

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Response to rug (Reply #4)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 09:24 AM

5. +1

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Response to rug (Reply #4)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 09:26 AM

7. Have to fix your own house first

 

And over 3 million who voted for Obama stayed home in November or voted for Jill Stein. We have to accept that reality and fix it.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #7)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 09:28 AM

9. You don't have to count lifeboats if you see the damned iceberg.

 

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Response to rug (Reply #9)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 09:31 AM

13. And you need to focus to see the iceberg

 

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #7)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 10:43 AM

36. One's house will never be perfect, nor one's naval. Time to stop gazing upon it

and focus on winning against an increasing evil opposition.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #7)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 12:26 PM

68. And may they Burn in hell with Stein, Sarandon and Nader.

They are covered in the blood of the innocent.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #68)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 12:41 PM

71. Exactly

With this "that will show them" attitude.
Has gotten us the biggest shit show in American
History.
Air ,water ,food, values at risk.
That will show Hillary Clinton.

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Response to MFM008 (Reply #71)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 01:45 PM

81. Sure will (not)

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Response to MFM008 (Reply #71)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 02:33 PM

85. But they got to stamp their little feet

and make a "statement."

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #68)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 09:53 AM

250. Agreed

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #7)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 05:38 PM

124. How do u fix stupid? Neither Hill nor Bernie were 100pc,

but get behind the nominee most likely to win. A first grader can do that arithmetic.
I call them out, the 3rd party purists.
Some learned from Nader, like Bill Maher, Sarah S, but many give the same tired lines...leaders.
I can maybe understand at the outset, but when the race is down to the wire, and your candidate is under 3 pc, how stupid can u be. Thx to jill stein for hanging in there 4 DT

...maybe there was something to her dinner w flynn and putin.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #7)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 01:38 AM

222. Nobody disagrees about turning those nonvoters into voters.

 

But if just shouting "you HAVE to vote for us" didn't work in 2016, why would you think it would work in 2018 or 2020?

I get the feeling that the part of the point behind your OP is to shout down people who would argue that November's results mean the party needs to take a hard look at itself and to change. Is that what you mean to be arguing?

Things did not go our way...but it's hard to see how shaming people who didn't vote for us into doing so next time is going to work. Demanding votes has been our mainly-unchanging approach since 1976. The only presidential elections we've won since then were 1992 and 1996(largely on the personal charisma of the Democratic nominee, combined with a split right-of-center vote) and 2008 and 2012, where our nominee asked for voted rather than demanding them and where that nominee made a positive case FOR change, combined with an implicit promise that grassroots activists would get a real say in politics and policy on his watch).

To me, the answer lies in recapturing and more deeply committing to the promise of the Obama moment, only this time with an ironclad commitment not to ditch the grassroots and the notion of transformation.

That promise is what elected Obama in 2008, and in diffused form re-elected President Obama.

If we speak out proudly and without hesitation for what we're about at our best, we can win. If we focus on attacking the other party, demand votes and make our message sound like we're telling people to eat their spinach, we usually can't.

So why stay with what decades of experience has proved not to work?

I say that as someone who wants to win as much as you do.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #222)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 06:30 AM

237. Never said 'you have to vote for us'

 

so don't put words in my mouth. My point is the far left is only marginalizing themselves by demanding 100% purity as the price for their votes.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #237)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 03:41 PM

275. It's not about "100% purity"

 

It's more like "at least don't be on the other side on any of the big stuff".

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #275)

Tue Mar 7, 2017, 12:45 AM

305. Exactly!

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #275)

Tue Mar 7, 2017, 06:10 AM

308. Yes it is

 

It has been a problem for decades and is needs to be addressed not denied.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #308)

Tue Mar 7, 2017, 02:58 PM

330. There have been TWO problems:

 

1) There have been some people who ended up making unreasonable demands from the Democratic Party;

2) There has been an insistence on the part of those running the Democratic Party that no one had the right to expect much of anything from it, that it's intolerable to expect the party to commit to real change on some issues(such as economics and foreign policy/defense), and that everyone should just shut up and take what those on top of the party will give them.

I don't defend anyone's decision to vote third-party this fall. I spent months pleading with those who were planning to do so to support us. At the same time, the way the party approached these people(basically just pounding a fist on the table and demanding their votes, rather than, as I would have done were I in charge of things, emphasizing that there were many proposals from the insurgent wing that were added to the platform, that that campaign had made a difference, and that this was a party in which the insurgence could now work effectively for what they wanted) had no other effect than to reinforce the sense of alienation these people had and stiffened their resolve not to work with us.

I would have said, as I've said since the Seventies, that we should have campaigned FOR, not just campaigned against.

Is there a reason this party can't campaign in the fall as though our ideas could actually win votes and that we could win the argument with voters, rather than going back to the approach we've used in every campaign since the Seventies OTHER than the campaigns that elected President Obama of running against? Why did we go back to the approach that lost for us over and over and over again?

We had proof, in the polls that came out almost daily, that a campaign that focused mainly on attacking Trump was not gaining us votes, that the "moderate Republican women in the suburbs" demographic that was supposed to be won over by those ads simply wasn't working-can you think of any good reason why they stayed with that approach? Why they didn't switch to trying to inspire people or to focusing on OUR proposals?

What we did this fall failed both times with Reagan...it failed both times with #43...what was the point of ever doing that again?

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #330)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 11:00 PM

490. Thanks for the reminder about running FOR something. It is so easy to forget.

 

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Response to Jim Beard (Reply #490)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 11:12 PM

491. Thanks for the support.

 

You have no idea how much hostility I've been getting just for talking about that idea here.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #222)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 11:13 AM

522. The party didn't seem to worry about losing the white male vote to Romney.

But Obama was the choice of the white straight men in the Democratic party, so it was written off as "racism" and not the problem of Democrats not reaching out to white men.

But when the rest of the party chose Hillary, white straight men in the Democratic party suddenly were blaming our candidate for winning the popular vote by 3 million, and having it stolen from her.

I think the actual crisis in our party is white straight male privilege, and a lot of sexism.

The rest of us got behind her, and didn't see the Democratic party as having failed for choosing her.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #522)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 01:11 PM

525. I got behind her as a white straight man.

 

BTW, it's bullshit to say that any significant number of Sanders supporters only voted for Bernie because they didn't want to see a woman as president, or because they didn't care about black or brown or gay people.

Hillary carried those demographics Having been campaigning for their support for eight years, she was always going to. The fact that she had their support does not mean Bernie had no business running at all.

I accept that Hillary won, and campaigned for her all fall, but it's finally time to admit that Bernie's campaign was never about sexism or support for white supremacy. The claim that it was always a slur.

Bernie got the votes he got solely because the people who backed him(a lot of whom weren't men, or straight, or white)thought Hillary was too far to the right. There was no other reason. His campaign was not an exercise in white privilege.

If Joe Biden had run and Hillary hadn't, his policies would have been identical to Hillary's, and everybody who voted for Bernie would STILL have voted for Bernie.

The primaries are over. Neither Bernie nor Hillary will ever seek the presidency again. Why are you trying to keep this pointless division between Sanders and Clinton people alive? Both groups are needed if we're to win in 2018 and 2020.

And the issue is not about carrying white voters overall. That's never going to happen and nobody is calling or even secretly wishing for the party to stop speaking out against bigotry. The issue was connecting with working class voters on economic issues, and on getting the people who didn't vote because they thought NO party cared about their situation, i.e., the poor of all races, to believe that we will do something meaningful to help them, and then actually doing that.

It's not about being George Wallace...it's about being Bobby Kennedy.


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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #525)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 03:15 PM

526. I understand, but there was indeed some real sexism on the far left

As there has been for a long time.

I also saw a lot of impatience with "identity politics" being dissed as distracting from the real issue of income inequality, primarily in the "white male working class." Bernie kept repeating that.

Bernie didn't take all straight white men, but his supporters were a majority of Democratic white men.

When women, people of color, LGBTQs and new Americans are dismissed and 'splained to about how they don't understand that solving income inequality and getting single payer health care will take care of all those other "identity issues" then I know it's not about their income inequality.... it's about the white straight guys. And BTW - better incomes and universal health care didn't solve racism, sexism homophobia and xenophobia in Europe, as we have seen.

After the election one midwestern Democratic congressman unintentionally put it so well when he said, "I'm as progressive as anybody, but it seemed like the Party cared more about bathrooms than creating jobs."

That is what dismissing the life-threatening issues of other "non-white straight males" sounds like.



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Response to ehrnst (Reply #526)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 03:36 PM

528. And I understand all that you're saying there.

 

I accept that the Sanders voting demographic skewed white and male-but that this was happenstance, rather than the campaign making a conscious decision to target that demographic.

I think the Sanders campaign's flaws on this were unintentional communications problems, rather than intentional dismissal.

Now, what we need is dialog between those who centered economic justice(most of whom also were strong supporters of anti-oppression politics)and those who centered and continue to center anti-oppression activism(the vast majority of whom are on the left on economic justice issues as well.

We need to stop framing this as some sort of blood feud between people who had been pro-Sanders and people who had been pro-Clinton, have the dialog that finally needs to happen between here, and create a platform for 2018 and 2020, no matter who runs in those years, that gives both sets of issues the importance they deserve and recognizes the links between them.

Like THIS document does:

https://policy.m4bl.org/platform/

Sound good to you?

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #528)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 04:45 PM

540. Like "happenstance" not going after Black support in the south?

http://fusion.net/story/323539/how-bernie-sanders-lost-black-voters/

No - that wasn't happenstance. When one's message has always been crafted to the interests of a small white, rural, lefty population it takes effort to expand it, and not double down that you have always been right, and always will be, so why change?

I sincerely doubt that the document you posted would get 5 minutes of the Senators' time.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #7)

Tue Mar 7, 2017, 10:38 AM

323. 54% of white voters went Republican in 2012. I don't recall anyone

saying that we needed to "fix" that reality.

But the Dem candidate then was the choice of white men in the party, so it couldn't be the fault of Dems, could it?

It was racism, of course. Not us.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #323)

Tue Mar 7, 2017, 07:26 PM

343. We do

 

No one is saying that we don't.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #343)

Sun Mar 12, 2017, 04:49 PM

544. I said in 2012 - not currently.

My point was exactly that- we are only suddenly gnashing our teeth about it when the candidate that wasn't the one the straight white men were behind lost the white vote. And only then.

Is that clearer?

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Response to rug (Reply #4)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 10:31 AM

27. +

millions more.

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Response to rug (Reply #4)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 10:34 AM

30. +1

Oh ffs. Give it a rest.

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Response to rug (Reply #4)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 12:03 PM

57. +1

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Response to rug (Reply #4)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 04:25 PM

95. Karl Rove funded Nader

Rove funded Nader in 2000 and 2004 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-zuesse/ralph-nader-was-indispens_b_4235065.html

Furthermore, Karl Rove and the Republican Party knew this, and so they nurtured and crucially assisted Nader’s campaigns, both in 2000 and in 2004. On 27 October 2000, the AP’s Laura Meckler headlined “GOP Group To Air Pro-Nader TV Ads.” She opened: “Hoping to boost Ralph Nader in states where he is threatening to hurt Al Gore, a Republican group is launching TV ads featuring Nader attacking the vice president [Mr. Gore]. ... ‘Al Gore is suffering from election year delusion if he thinks his record on the environment is anything to be proud of,’ Nader says [in the commercial]. An announcer interjects: ‘What’s Al Gore’s real record?’ Nader says: ‘Eight years of principles betrayed and promises broken.’” Meckler’s report continued: “A spokeswoman for the Green Party nominee said that his campaign had no control over what other organizations do with Nader’s speeches.” Bush’s people - the group sponsoring this particular ad happened to be the Republican Leadership Council - knew exactly what they were doing, even though the liberal suckers who voted so carelessly for Ralph Nader obviously did not. Anyone who drives a car the way those liberal fools voted, faces charges of criminal negligence, at the very least. But this time, the entire nation crashed as a result; not merely a single car.....

On July 9th, the San Francisco Chronicle headlined “GOP Doners Funding Nader: Bush Supporters Give Independent’s Bid a Financial Lift,” and reported that the Nader campaign “has received a recent windfall of contributions from deep-pocketed Republicans with a history of big contributions to the party,” according to “an analysis of federal records.” Perhaps these contributors were Ambassador Egan’s other friends. Mr. Egan’s wife was now listed among the Nader contributors. Another listed was “Nijad Fares, a Houston businessman, who donated $200,000 to the Bush inaugural committee and who donated $2,000 each to the Nader effort and the Bush campaign this year.” Furthermore, Ari Berman reported 7 October 2004 at the Nation, under “Swift Boat Veterans for Nader,” that some major right-wing funders of a Republican smear campaign against Senator John Kerry’s Vietnam service contributed also $13,500 to the Nader campaign, and that “the Republican Party of Michigan gathered ninety percent of Nader’s signatures in their state” (90%!) to place Nader on the ballot so Bush could win that swing state’s 17 electoral votes. Clearly, the word had gone out to Bush’s big contributors: Help Ralphie boy! In fact, on 15 September 2005, John DiStaso of the Manchester Union-Leader, reported that, “A year ago, as the Presidential general election campaign raged in battleground state New Hampshire, consumer advocate Ralph Nader found his way onto the ballot, with the help of veteran Republican strategist David Carney and the Carney-owned Norway Hill Associates consulting firm.”

It was obvious, based upon the 2000 election results, that a dollar contributed to Nader in the 2004 contest would probably be a more effective way to achieve a Bush win against Kerry in the U.S. Presidential election than were perhaps even ten dollars contributed to Bush. This was a way of peeling crucial votes off from Bush’s real opponent - votes that otherwise would have gone to the Democrat. That’s why the smartest Republican money in the 2004 Presidential election was actually going to Nader, even more so than to Bush himself: these indirect Bush contributions provided by far the biggest bang for the right-wing buck.

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #95)

Tue Mar 7, 2017, 10:41 AM

326. And in 2016.... He funded Hillary's primary rival. (nt)

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #326)

Tue Mar 7, 2017, 11:11 AM

328. Yes Rove did

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Response to rug (Reply #4)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 04:42 PM

102. Not saying leftish radicals and extremists don't

have a right to their opinions. What's important is that we all realize that we usually overall have very different opinions, very different principles, very different goals, and very different ideas of what means are acceptable in pursuing our goals. Some overlap but...ultimately different.

And especially that we realize the illiberal left normally opposes liberals and the dominant left-wing party, the Democratic Party. There's this silly notion that they are just a variation of liberals who will abandon their passion for "revolution," for a separate party, for purging and taking control of the already large, powerful Democratic Party away from its liberal and conservative members--and will instead support Democratic candidates if only spoken to nicely. Not!

We can agree on that, right?

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #102)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 05:46 PM

127. Many are same people who think 9/11was an inside job

Far left and far right.

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Response to Alice11111 (Reply #127)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 06:26 PM

145. Yes. Conspiracism common at both extremes.

Sigh.

But let's face it, many of the anti-Democrat left really aren't deluded like that. Yes, some people did totally believe that our candidate was "stealing" elections--and still do, their conspiracies becoming more and more complex as they rationalize new developments into their picture. And others felt both Democratic candidates were basically just corporatist stooges.

Others, though, didn't believe that. But they used it and felt very virtuous in the process. Their characteristic righteousness breeds ruthlessness, normal principles, even potentially the right of voters to choose their candidates, subjugated to what they believe is their great mission. And only theirs.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #145)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 07:10 PM

153. Well said.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #145)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 05:41 AM

235. especially, righteousness breeds ruthfulness

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Response to Alice11111 (Reply #235)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 07:18 AM

243. What exactly is "ruthfulness"?

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Response to milestogo (Reply #243)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 03:33 PM

274. Dictionary says, causing sorrow. I would add usually

Deliberately, cruelly, vindictively, and often from a position of power. Distionary is my phone Websters, so not very explicit.

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Response to Alice11111 (Reply #274)

Tue Mar 7, 2017, 07:02 PM

337. Ends justify the means, even when that means

abandonment of normal standards of decency and very embedded principles of behavior, and in this case, I meant democracy itself. One of our candidates would have used an available process to set aside a large majority vote for the other candidate if he could. Unfortunately for this ruthless scheme, others held to their good sense, their principles, and their duty to the voters. It actually never came close to succeeding.

What I note is not only the attempt of this leader to overset the democratic process but the willingness of way too many of his followers to follow and approve. Because he is their leader.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #337)

Tue Mar 7, 2017, 09:39 PM

353. Nailed the problem...those who follow, Congress, Repubs

Trumpsters. He has barely enough support, but he has it...to harm the world.

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Response to rug (Reply #4)

Tue Mar 7, 2017, 07:14 PM

338. It is funny how the GOP is never at fault for anything.

 

No, it is always that powerless left wing! Good call. How sad anyone would recommend this very long right wing talking point.

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Response to Rex (Reply #338)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 09:29 AM

371. As if the right wing has never donated to or sponsered the far left...

...and the far left hasn't ever taken or supported their efforts. No not ever.

It's amazing, fucking amazing, how a Democrat can get donations from individuals (NOTE: individual contributions) from people working for say, the banks, but the far left, taking direct paychecks from fascists (anyone who gets paid to go on RT) or who gets paid by the far right (Nader's campaigns), and it's fucking hunky doory.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #371)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 05:03 PM

375. You mean like Bernie getting support from individuals?

 

Nice try but fail. The left has always been powerless, but you knew that already.

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Response to Rex (Reply #375)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 07:10 PM

394. Sure.

But no one bitched when he got donations from workers from Apple, Kaiser, Microsoft, Google, etc. Because people went out of their way to point out those were individual donations. But if a Democrat, who is in NY, or who comes from the north east, gets donations from people who work in the banks, oh my goodness, it's the end of the world, the sky is falling. They're evil beholden democrats. No mention of donation limits, no recognition that these are individuals who have jobs, lives, actual human beings. Not superpacs like the right wing uses.

And the left, of all people, looks at Trump's media manipulated campaign (with foreign influence) and acts as if it was some kind of populist magic, because he didn't spend as much money. Trump got $5 billion in free media coverage, for fucks sake.

It's a goddamn greek tragedy.

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Response to rug (Reply #4)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 09:26 AM

370. They thrive on the left eating its own?

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Response to rug (Reply #4)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 07:41 PM

405. Not enough of the gop to win unless dumbshits scream "but emails" and vote 3rd party

or stay home.

These so called progressives killed us all.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 09:25 AM

6. Just what are you trying to do here?

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Response to demmiblue (Reply #6)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 09:28 AM

10. Trying to address

 

what has become an ongoing problem and weakness of the left.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #10)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 11:52 AM

53. WE SHOULD ALL MOVE TO THE RIGHT!

That's what this is. Never again. That's what got us Bush 2.

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Response to Greybnk48 (Reply #53)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 07:32 PM

160. What? How do you see that?

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Response to George II (Reply #160)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 08:53 PM

170. My statement was meant as sarcasm.

Since Reagan, the left is always advised that the solution to ANY goddamn problem at all is for us to move right. For years we have stupidly done it to the point of almost destroying our party, UNTIL this past election.

We lost this election because of Russian interference, and possible/probable corroboration with a foreign government by the Republican party. People want the message they were getting from us and it was from the left, NOT the middle or right of middle.

The election was gamed, and it will come out.

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Response to demmiblue (Reply #6)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 09:52 AM

20. Disrupt.

Our "fancy" friend here is trying very hard to distract us from discussing Trump's implosion.

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Response to Barack_America (Reply #20)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 10:37 AM

33. Most of us are capable of holding multiple thoughts simultaneously.

It's always a good idea to learn from history, so we can try not to make the same mistakes.

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Response to unitedwethrive (Reply #33)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 06:16 PM

139. !!!

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Response to Barack_America (Reply #20)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 12:04 PM

58. Divide, too.

So transparent.

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Response to QC (Reply #58)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 02:47 PM

268. Looks that way to me too.

Joins just after Dump's "win", studies the "libt*rds" for awhile, then posts some extremely divisive red meat that's guaranteed to have regular DUers at each others throats, while still under 100 posts.

Doing a really good job too. Even has someone proclaiming their desire to stomp on the faces of "leftists". Must be getting a good chuckle out of this.

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Response to Crunchy Frog (Reply #268)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 02:54 PM

269. Bingo. n/t

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Response to QC (Reply #58)

Tue Mar 7, 2017, 07:16 PM

339. Good to know who

 

recs right wing talking points. Even long winded ones.

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Response to Rex (Reply #339)

Tue Mar 7, 2017, 08:10 PM

351. No surprises at all in who grabbed up this stinky turd and ran with it.

I tells ya, no freeper ever hated progressives more than our very own Sensible Pragmatic Centrists™.

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Response to QC (Reply #351)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 05:11 PM

377. Well what do you expect them to do? Their epic failure by running centrists

 

has always been a failure and they can NEVER do anything but blame the powerless left!

I'm just glad people are on to their game.

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Response to Rex (Reply #377)

Fri Mar 10, 2017, 04:40 PM

539. Yeah, "centrists" like the Congressional Black Caucus and Planned Parenthood....

who were called "establishment types" because you know, they are so in the center....

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Response to Barack_America (Reply #20)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 12:27 PM

69. Hopefully...people are too smart of such as he/she.

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Response to demmiblue (Reply #6)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 05:11 PM

113. The far left will play their purity bullshit again. I want to stomp them in the face

every chance I get. They have helped damage the country during four (68, 00, 04, 16) pivotal elections. I am tired of their shit. I am a childless male who has a good profession, I don't need much at all, I don't need freedom to reproductive choices, I don't need social services that republicans call entitlements, I drink bottled water and cook infrequently, so if republicans fuck up clean water I will get clean water that I need. I don't need schools being childless, I don't get stopped or abused by cops. The few services that I use, republicans never, never talk about reducing or cutting because they need those services too. I don't need to vote Democrat, but I do on every election because I believe in the Democrat's "We are all in this together mindset". I sometimes vote against my maximum interests to vote Democrat, but I vote D regardless and have never had a second thought. I vote Democrat because I know the republican is worst. I am fucking tired of purists getting all pissy because they only got 85-90% of everything they wanted.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #113)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 05:20 PM

116. I didn't read past, "I want to stomp them in the face every chance I get."

Reminds me of DTG.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #113)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 11:02 AM

261. Nice

Perhaps it's time for you to go clean your room.

What kind of person wants to stomp people in the face because s/he disagrees with the other person? Jeez, get some help.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #113)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 02:39 PM

267. And then you wonder why our party is losing.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #113)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 07:43 PM

408. I hear ya, i do. It will happen again in 2018, you can see it in this thread.

They dont understand how the two party system works, they simply dont.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 09:28 AM

11. .

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 09:29 AM

12. It's always the same BS stupidity

"There's no difference between the two". Stupider words have never been spoken in the history of this country. They did it in 2000 led by Nader who now has the blood of two wars on his hands. They did it in 2010 by being petulant children who wanted to "teach the party a lesson" over not getting the public option in the ACA. And these complete idiots do d it again last year even joining forces with the lunatic fringe right wing by repeating Russian propaganda lies about Hillary. They are solely responsible for many of our problems because they think they are the smartest people in the room because everyone around them agrees in that liberal version of alternate reality.

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Response to Gman (Reply #12)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 06:06 PM

135. They are worse than trump supporters in my opinion.

 

At least trump's minions are honest about who they are.

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Response to liquid diamond (Reply #135)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 07:43 PM

409. Agreed.

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Response to Gman (Reply #12)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 06:14 PM

138. I have to interact w them. Definitely NOT smartest or

most informed people.
They THINK they are more sophisticated though. They have their own fringe media. Most can't even name many top elected officials.
One was telling me how her good friend (who was really smart and principled), at a restaurant, went over to the table of a veteran and disrupted his family and friend dinner. She was loudly carrying on about his killing people in war. Yeah, that will get us votes.
I said, she would have had a hard time doing that if I were there.

Obviously, this issue hits a nerve with me. Yes, Comey, was the final straw. Yes. It was the Russians, voter suppression , fake news, mismanaged campaign, and many other things that individually or together cost us the election. Still, I'm sick and tired of losing to these corrupt MF Repubs, and one factor that has caused it FOR SURE in 3 or 4 elections is the stupid far left. It is bad enough to have to fight the stupidity of the Repubs, but the extreme left may be equally stupid. So, thanks for putting this out here. We need to keep saying it. Maybe, it will penetrate some of their pea brains.

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Response to Gman (Reply #12)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 09:32 AM

373. They have the same malignancy of the right wing.

They simply ignore the truth. They are basically liars who feed on lies. When they are presented with the truth they deflect with strawmen, lies, and more lies, with no nuance whatsoever.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #373)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 05:34 PM

388. Thank you for your nuanced response.

 

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #388)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 07:03 PM

393. Discussing BS stupidity doesn't require it.

It's plain as day and why the left has been losing, around the world, for a long time now.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #393)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 07:46 PM

415. Do what I say, not what I do? Got it.

 

BTW, I'd say the elites have been fucking up, and are now losing, all around the world. That's how we got Trump, and Brexit. "The left"--uncorrupted by Big Money--hasn't been in charge for a good long while.

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #415)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 10:35 PM

489. Trump and Brexit are the elites losing?

Trump and Brexit are directly tied to racism.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #489)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 08:35 AM

518. Trump and Brexit are big FUs to the elites.

 

Here's a guy who can explain it way better than I can (btw he predicted both events)

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/11/18/mark_blyth_global_trumpism_and_the_revolt_against_the_creditor_class.html

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Response to Gman (Reply #12)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 11:16 AM

523. Far left Dogma is rather Maoist in the requirements to conform totally to

the purity litmus tests.

That way went the Nader "revolution."

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 09:38 AM

14. What's that, Fancy Bear?

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Response to Barack_America (Reply #14)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 09:43 AM

16. And some people eat it up.

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Response to demmiblue (Reply #16)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 09:51 AM

19. Looks good.

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Response to demmiblue (Reply #16)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 01:22 PM

80. Looks so yummy now I am hungry and have completely forgotten what this post was about

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 09:39 AM

15. Well, stein did lie to her fans about Hillary.. and sarandon did the same..

snip//

It was Jill Stein who said Hillary might be the greater evil in a Trump matchup (“Hil­la­ry has the potential to do a whole lot more damage, get us into more wars”), a sentiment shared by actress Susan Sarandon, who told an interviewer she believed that Clinton was “more dangerous” than Trump because she was more hawkish and better able to ram her agenda through Congress. In words I suspect Sarandon wishes she could reel back, she discounted the threat level posed by a Trump presidency: “Seriously, I am not worried about a wall being built . . . . He is not going to get rid of every Muslim in this country.” She speculated on another occasion that a Trump win might hasten the revolution. The left’s romance with revolution has always been a reality-blinder, this thermodynamic belief that things need to get bad beyond the breaking point so that people will take the vape pens out of their mouths, rise up, and storm the Bastille. But the history of non-democracies and authoritarian personality cults shows that things can stay bad and get worse for a long time, leaving unhealable wounds. Mao’s China, for example. Putin’s tubercular Russia.

More to the story..
http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/03/why-the-alt-left-is-a-problem

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Response to Cha (Reply #15)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 10:46 AM

37. Stein, Putin and Trump joined forces against Clinton-she is that formidable


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Response to Cha (Reply #15)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 04:27 PM

96. Stein and Sarandon are two sad people who are proud of their efforts to elect trump

Last edited Sun Mar 5, 2017, 07:30 PM - Edit history (1)

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #96)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 07:26 PM

157. Right.. they don't regret shit.

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Response to Cha (Reply #157)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 07:30 PM

158. They are actually proud that trump was elected due to their efforts

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #158)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 07:45 PM

412. Yep and they are here on this thread it seems.

Hey, you won guys.

The human race will now be destroyed, you got your wish!

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #412)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 12:06 PM

524. I agree and I am not happy with this sentiment

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Response to Cha (Reply #15)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 04:52 PM

105. Anyone who says Hillary was worse than Trump

Is neither a Democrat or a progressive. They are delusional.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 09:46 AM

17. You Sooo Funny!

There is no "extreme" left in the US of A. They were driven to the point of extinction by McCarthy and Bircher style demonization.
You're walking out on a very thin limb accusing anyone that considers themselves on the left as being responsible for trump.
Here's the way things broke down in my neck of the world. Mid-sized exurban county, income median $67K. Voting tally? 127K trump, 62K Clinton, 1.5k third party AND write in. This is just one of the counties in one of the states that CLINTON SHOULD HAVE WON. If there were enough of an "extreme" left in this country to make a difference Sanders would be President today.

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Response to tech3149 (Reply #17)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 05:21 PM

117. There is an extreme left and it is fucking clueless.

98% of people calling themselves Democrats and being proud to call themselves Democrats are progressives, whether you agree or not (not that I care if you don't). Real progressives have made more progress, even in the face of stiff resistance that the extreme left will in it's wildest wet dream.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #117)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 05:39 PM

389. Commies! They're all freaking' commies!

 

Us real progressives believe in targeted drone strikes, fracking over coal, public / private cooperation and being all bipartisany.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #117)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 07:47 PM

416. They arent actually left at all, but that is what they call themselves, yes.

I am the extreme left and I NEVER vote 3rd party and I NEVER stay home.

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Response to tech3149 (Reply #17)

Thu Mar 9, 2017, 03:16 PM

527. The audience for RT and the Intercept isn't small. (nt)

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 09:49 AM

18. It would be nice to unite against a common enemy

It makes too much sense.

At the very least, could the radical left just stop stabbing mainstream Democrats in the back?

No? Well then how about just owning the fact that you're not our allies and never intend to be anything of the sort?

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Response to Cary (Reply #18)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 04:55 PM

106. Like those who suggest that certain Ds should primary others

Instead of running against Rs. In the midst of this nightmare, they still want purity tests.

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Response to mcar (Reply #106)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 05:10 PM

112. Yes, and sowing discord and discontent

And diluting our mission and our message. And making us weaker not stronger.

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Response to Cary (Reply #112)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 05:12 PM

114. Hillary was correct

We are Stronger Together!

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Response to mcar (Reply #114)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 05:18 PM

115. But is the radical left to be trusted?

Sure if they would work with us on our common goals we would be stronger. Bit if they stab us in the back and tell us it's our own fault for saying ouch, I'd just as soon set them afloat on their nice iceberg.

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Response to Cary (Reply #115)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 05:33 PM

120. I have my doubts too Cary

When another 3rd party "savior" shows up in a few years and starts singing the purity and "both sides do it" songs, I presume they will follow along.

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Response to mcar (Reply #106)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 07:49 PM

420. And you could primary anybody you want but you come together after that, which

they wont do if they dont get their way.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #420)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 08:25 PM

453. Yes, in normal times

Now we shouldn't even consider primarying a Democrat. There are plenty of Republicans to run against.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 09:53 AM

21. I always thought that people in this country have the right to vote for whomever they want.

They have the right to vote for third party candidates or not to vote at all.

No candidate is owed votes. Votes have to be earned.

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Response to milestogo (Reply #21)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 10:27 AM

24. Of course. That's why Drumpf earned

the election.

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Response to milestogo (Reply #21)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 10:29 AM

25. and apparently

you voted for trump, whether directly or indirectly. That was your right. Congrats.

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Response to lillypaddle (Reply #25)

Tue Mar 7, 2017, 08:23 PM

352. They stared into the face of fascism and said they couldn't be bothered to oppose it... nt

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Response to lillypaddle (Reply #25)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 05:10 PM

376. A vote for Jill Stein was a vote for trump

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Response to milestogo (Reply #21)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 11:03 AM

45. that attitude will make it sure you never

get a progressive government.

You have to vote in your best interests - not sit there and expect to be "courted."

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Response to milestogo (Reply #21)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 11:48 AM

51. Yes, people have the right to stab us in the back

No one ever said the radical left had no right to stab us in the back. That's a straw man.

The point is that the radical left should not be stabbing mainstream Democrats in the back, because they only hurt themselves and help the radical right.

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Response to Cary (Reply #51)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 01:01 PM

74. Ah, so its all about us.

All citizens should vote the way WE tell them to. They have no choice in the matter. They owe us.

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Response to milestogo (Reply #74)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 01:19 PM

79. That's really helpful

But of course the radical left are free to be martyrs too.

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Response to Cary (Reply #51)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 12:30 AM

204. A tragedy in 2 acts

Act I - The Primaries:

Radical left: We're begging you, don't put up Clinton, we can't support her and she doesn't poll well with independents. We're raising a bunch of red flags that she could lose.
Mainstream Democrats: All your concerns are nothing burgers. We got this, we don't need you.

Act II- Post-Election:
Mainstream Democrats: Where the hell were you guys? How could you stab us in the back like that?



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Response to onyxw (Reply #204)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 12:42 AM

209. It's not that the "concerns are nothing burgers."

It's that this is a democracy and the radical left isn't the majority. Feelings of entitlement don't cut it.

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Response to Cary (Reply #209)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 01:07 AM

216. That statement works both ways.

Centrist democrats aren't the majority. Feelings of entitlement to left votes don't cut it either.

Both sides need each other. Simple at that. Whether we all like it or not. So we all better learn to compromise (left) and listen to each other (centrists) or we're going to continue to lose.

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Response to onyxw (Reply #216)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 01:23 AM

220. Then don't evolve.

Don't ever change. Not that I matter one bit, but I wrote off the radical left years ago.

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Response to milestogo (Reply #21)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 02:38 PM

87. Nobody's saying people don't have a right

to vote for "whomever they want." Nor that votes don't have to be earned. We're saying those who voted third party out of pique because they didn't get the nominee they wanted are dumb as dirt and are at least partially responsible for the disaster we're seeing now.

Did Stein really "earn" anybody's vote? Please.

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Response to milestogo (Reply #21)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 04:28 PM

97. Elections and votes for third parties have consequences

In 2000 and 2004, Karl Rove and the GOP funded nader. Stein was helped by trump's people. They did this for a reason

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Response to milestogo (Reply #21)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 05:29 PM

119. You act like you're watching a porn flick, where the actors have to excite you.

Pull your head out of the sand, this is the real world where there is never a "perfect" choice, but where every choice has real consequences. You voted for Trump, whether you own up to it or not, enjoy polluted waters, damaged environment, far more violence in the world, unspeakable brutality, you fucking voted for it (whether you voted for Trump, Johnson, Stein, wrote in and stayed home).

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #119)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 05:34 PM

121. You can't wrap your mind around the fact

that I worked for Hillary Clinton, voted for Hillary Clinton, and still respect the right of other citizens to exercise their own choice in voting. I think Clinton herself would be horrified by the attitudes in this thread.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #119)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 06:26 PM

146. !!!

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Response to milestogo (Reply #21)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 06:42 AM

241. Never said they didn't

 

In fact I said "no candidate or political party is owed anyone's vote". But they also must take responsibility for their vote.

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Response to milestogo (Reply #21)


Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 09:59 AM

22. Oh, so, you've got all the answers. Cool. Maybe you should be running the party.



Thanks for your concern.

Has the bullshit options market collapsed for you?

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Response to GoneOffShore (Reply #22)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 10:30 AM

26. Truth hurts sometimes. nt

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Response to lillypaddle (Reply #26)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 04:57 PM

108. Me thinks that the concern is misplaced.

And 'truth' would seem to be fluid with those who seem to have an 'interesting' agenda.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Reply #22)


Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 10:26 AM

23. Thanks for saying what is difficult for them to hear.

No one likes to hear they were that stupid to bring on disaster because they allowed perfect to be the enemy of the good.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 10:32 AM

28. If you want a scapegoat blame the non voters

There are many magnitudes more of them, including tens of millions who benefit from Democratic policy priorities. It makes the number of leftists (who always happen to be one of the constituencies most loyal to Democrats) who vote third part laughable by comparison.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Reply #28)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 10:41 AM

35. Yes indeed. Wasn't it a shame that people like Sarandon likely discouraged the "wishy-washy" voter

... who was easily manipulated into believing that Hillary was "worse than Trump" or "more dangerous that Trump". Sarandon (and other arrogant loud-mouths like her) contributed to the toxic atmosphere toward Hillary even AFTER the conventions were over.

I'm certain that the non-voters definitely contributed in a negative way.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #35)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 07:52 PM

424. She did that for sure. People are stupid, she capitalized on that fact.

I really want to watch the new show on FX, Feud, but she makes me so angry dont know if I can.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Reply #28)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 12:49 PM

73. Zero lessons learned from '08 (inspired turnout), '10 (apathetic midterms), '12 (declining turnout)

Blaming some subset for a narrow loss when the party has proven to be capable of massive wins, with a properly run campaign, is not a good look.

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Response to KeepItReal (Reply #73)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 06:53 PM

150. But witch hunts just feel so good.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 10:36 AM

31. And the fringe-left FAITHLESS ELECTORS would have handed it to Trump if things had been that close.

Therefore, the insistence by some on the left for 100% ideological purity can only serve to marginalize themselves.
Amen to that. It's vain. It's naive.

They foolishly believe that "sending-a-message" will drag the party in their direction. They also believe that they must "destroy to rebuild". Both notions are wrong.

Stein voters (and those who thought it was cute to "write-in" names of people not actually running) are beneath contempt. I wonder if Sarandon (a Stein voter) is satisfied and happy now.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #31)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 10:53 AM

41. They prove they cannot be counted on to vote for the Dems, then they cry when the Dems go after the

 

voters in the center.

It's pure stupidity on their part and they have no place in the Democratic Party until they, you know, actually vote for Democrats.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #31)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 05:34 PM

122. Don't expect Stein to take responsibility for anything. She is worst than Trump. nt

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #122)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 08:19 PM

165. Of course she wont. But ... it changes nothing. We know the truth.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #31)


Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 10:36 AM

32. Nader is responsible for Citizens United and the gutting of the Voting Rights Act

I live in Texas where we are dealing the consequences of Nader giving the election to bush. The voting rights act was gutted and we got Citizens United all due to Nader

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #32)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 05:40 PM

125. You "Must earn my vote" Clowns. Answer that poster.

The person gave to real, lasting consequences of your purity bullshit. Bush made two critical appointments to the Court, the Voting Rights Act was abandoned 5-4 and Citizens United became law 5-4. I saw some of you clever bullshitters reply to other posts, reply to the one that gave to real life consequences of your fucking stupidity.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #125)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 07:17 PM

155. So are you happy that trump won? Were you happy when Bush won?

A vote for Stein was a vote for trump and now Stein voters must accept the consequences of their actions.

Are you happy with Trump being POTUS?

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 10:40 AM

34. K&R. nt

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 10:49 AM

38. I lulz'd

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 10:50 AM

39. They will never learn.

 

They prove themselves to be unreliable voters for the Dems, then whine when the Dems move towards to center to pick up enough votes to actually win.

If they ever smarten up, they could be a real force and actually implement some of their agenda, most of which I would agree with. Unfortunately, we don't have that luxury because the extreme left is so purist they'll never get what they want.

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Response to Foamfollower (Reply #39)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 05:50 PM

129. Clinton got 66 million votes.

A lot of sane republicans have abandoned or will abandon the Republican Party. I can't see anyone that is a true patriot voting republican. My argument is forget the far left, we need to learn to live without them today, our candidates should be center-left, period, that is where elections are won and progress is made. If we win, who gives a shit is we win by the 3.5 million more votes the far left brings, we already have 66 million and can get millions more from the Center to become dominant in all elections. Fuck the far left, they will get what they want because our values are progressive, but we won't have them blowing up elections with us counting on them to be sane.

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Response to Foamfollower (Reply #39)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 06:40 AM

240. Exactly my point

 

Thanks, I'm glad someone here gets it.

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Response to Foamfollower (Reply #39)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 05:26 PM

385. What part of getting more votes than anyone but Obama in '08 is unclear to you? (nt)

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #385)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 06:53 PM

392. No part of it.

 

You seem to agree with me. A few thousand extreme leftists actually voting Hillary instead of Stein in a few key states and history takes a completely different path, so those assholes are useles, their agenda is useless, and we need to pick of more from the center in those key states because extreme leftists are unreliable.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #385)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 07:26 PM

396. The part that brought out enough votes to defeat her

 

More votes was not enough and had she been a better candidate it would have been very difficult to vote for Trump.

Her negatives gave enough cover for him to slide through.

She was and remains a terrible candidate. There is no doubt she would have been world's better than Cheeto Jesus but blaming the far left for a shit candidate is silly.

There is also nothing close to any assurance her presidency would not have destroyed the Dems for decades. All she had to do when she got in office is cozy up to the bankers, something she has a tendency to and that would have destroyed the Dems going forward.

At least with Trump we can point our fingers and say how is that working out for you. There is no guarantee were the shoe on the other foot that finger would not be pointed at us.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 10:50 AM

40. Cool story, bro

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Response to RandiFan1290 (Reply #40)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 11:38 AM

49. +1

The messages in this thread seem like Trump blaming Obama for Trump's collusion with Russia. Paranoid, angry, and looking for a scapegoat.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 10:55 AM

42. So we are telling people how liberal to be?

Maybe a little more liberal candidate would have been a better solution because we wouldn't have lost votes to Stein, etc..

Instead of telling people to snap in line, maybe we should find more common ground.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #42)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 12:13 PM

62. You can be as liberal as you want to be

I'm very liberal but understand that you have to govern more from the center because the country consists of people from the far left to the far right and everything in between. It's not all about me and what I want. Most of us would probably be okay being governed from the center, but we can't handle being governed by the extreme right.

I never for a minute thought that President Obama wasn't in favor of gay marriage, but he knew there weren't enough voters ready for it, so he got elected and started slowly guiding the country more to the left. Once people got used to civil unions, marriage wasn't as big of a jump.

Even though I'm liberal, I respect those that are "somewhat" more conservative, and sometimes it takes baby steps to change people's minds.

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Response to Mellomugwump (Reply #62)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 01:12 PM

78. Babysteps is losing the millenials

Including my son who is very politically interested and active, but very, very frustrated.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #78)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 04:22 PM

94. Perhaps they need to learn that it isn't all about them?

There are other people in the world that exist and matter that you might not agree with 100%? Now that they actually have to govern and take responsibility for it, the republicans are finding out that it might not be as easy as they thought to take the country to a hard right. Just like it wouldn't be easy to take the country to a hard left.

Maybe witnessing the destruction that's going to happen over the next four years will be an education that maybe not getting 100% of what you want isn't the end of the world.....literally. Yes, we want free college tuition, but now, not only are we not going to get that, our public school system is going to be demolished.

California was set to start building their new light rail system, or whatever it was. Now, not only do they not get that, but regulations attempting to keep our air and water clean are being rolled back. The hard work that Obama did to fight climate control is probably for naught as well.

We couldn't get universal healthcare thanks to the DINO's and now with Trump, we get nothing.

Anybody that didn't vote for Hillary or who voted for a third party because Hillary wasn't left enough is a dumbass...pure and simple, and I despise them as much as I do the deplorables for giving us the hell we're in now.

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Response to Mellomugwump (Reply #94)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 07:13 PM

154. Hasn't been about them at all

Even though it is their future. Maybe if they had gotten support from Obama and Hillary during Occupy instead of her being paid exorbitant fees to speak on Wall street?

Oh, yeah I forgot, none of this is the moderate Democrat' s fault.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #154)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 07:43 PM

162. I'm just glad I never had kids

If I had, I wouldn't be able to stop and ask myself every now and then - what do I care? I'm going to be gone in 30-40 years, so just calm down. That's the only way I keep from going nuts. If I had kids, or planned to have kids, I would definitely not waste a protest vote on somebody who can't win, I'd vote for the person most likely to protect the environment. Wall Street speeches would definitely be lower on my list.

After 4 years of trump (or God forbid 8) and with a little maturity, hopefully they'll figure it out. But then I suppose we'll have another generation of voters who didn't live through the Bush and Trump years who think they know it all.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #154)


Response to HopeAgain (Reply #78)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 02:45 AM

232. I am a millennial,

The best thing my generation can do is get involved - by running for office or acquainting ourselves with the power structures we're up against. If we fail to understand political realities we get left out which is why millennials who didn't vote set themselves up to fail.

Big sweeping changes can only happen with majorities in congress and a dem president.

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Response to Mellomugwump (Reply #62)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 05:57 PM

131. I virulently was opposed to Bernie winning our Primary.

But, if he had won it, I would have ran to the polls to vote for him and every Democrat on the ballot. Why? Because in the end, Bernie would have given me more of the policy that I value than the republican would have, period. Since I am Center-Left, it is unlikely that Bernie would ever "earn" my vote in a Party Primary.

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Response to Mellomugwump (Reply #62)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 10:58 PM

191. I ain't understanding squat

 

Any "dem" that tries moving to the center is an ENEMY. There has been enough baby steps and appeasing to the extreme right and every year they get worse and worse. Meanwhile this country still doesn't have universal health care.

If you look at what the current right wing is and think we need to move closer to their direction you are out of your mind. What the hell do we move to the center to? Less intrusive Muslim bans? Slightly less wealth inequality? Bring back only part of the EPA regulations? Fuck that and fuck centrists. They are enemies. It's not about being "pure", the center left in this country is pretty conservative in all other first world countries all because the left in this country is full of appeasing cowards.

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Response to RoadhogRidesAgain (Reply #191)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 11:56 PM

203. This was in context of voting for Hillary

Rather than a Jill Stein throwaway vote. My main point is that I think Hillary is probably more to the left than she campaigned to, in order to not lose the independents. I'm not saying move more to the left, I'm saying that while not perfect, Hillary is leagues above what we ended up with, so anybody who didn't vote for her because she isn't progressive enough, screwed us all.

I would love to see the whole country move WAY more to the left, which would result in more progressives winning elections. In the meantime, we shouldn't shoot ourselves in the foot if our candidate's ideology isn't where we want it to be.....yet. Unless you're in favor of the scorched earth policy where you want to see it all burned down, so we can start over, and that is tempting, but I'd worry that we'd still end up way behind where we want to be.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 10:58 AM

43. Breaking windows instead of building bridges



That's all the far left seems to do...

What part of the democratic platform does the far left object to in particular?

Or was is just their disdain in general, for the messenger ~

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 11:01 AM

44. Exactly, they are "wimps" because they know

the left does not have their backs, whereas the right is "tough" because they know they can do anything and still have support.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 11:10 AM

46. Excellent

Another circular firing squad. You're not beating that horse hard enough, put your shoulder into it.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 11:12 AM

47. Many claim to be "The Progressives" it is past time to define the term.


The noise I keep hearing is:


"We are the progressives, you are the Other."

"We are right, you are wrong"

"We are pure and saint-like in our ideology, you are less than pure, evil, corrupt"

"We must reform you and destroy you, bend you to our will"

"We are the anti-corporatists (except when they sell us products we need like I-Phones); you are corporatists.

"We are the judges, we decide who is progressive, you are the judged.

"You need us, we don't need or want you-you must be purged if you do not bend to our will.

Meanwhile the March of the Elephants continues crushing all in its path-and the monied pith-helmeted Susan Sarandon "progressives" decked out in expensive gear tell us the destruction is really a good thing---because the survivors will, one day, join us maybe........




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Response to delisen (Reply #47)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 06:01 PM

133. Great analysis. On the money on Sarandon. nt

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Response to delisen (Reply #47)

Tue Mar 7, 2017, 11:59 AM

329. That's what I'm hearing too

Great summary of the attitudes of certain so-called "progressives." Sarandon is a perfect example.

I can't stand smug, self-righteous people, and a lot of them are.

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Response to delisen (Reply #47)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 08:04 AM

366. "Conform with us on every single issue, or you are not true progressives!!"

"Also - you must agree that Glenn Greewald is the font of truth, anything other than demanding single payer means you are a corporate shill, FREE college not DEBT free college or you are a corporate shill, NO LESS than $15 an hour minimum wage NOW or you are a right wing corporate shill. If you are Democrat and not with us, you are just a moderate Republican. Nothing in between."

Because that's totally a message that invites people to join your 'revolution.'

See also - Ralph Nader.




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Response to ehrnst (Reply #366)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 05:12 PM

378. I stopped caring about Glen Greenwald a very long time ago

If agreeing with Greenwald is a litmus test, then I am happy to fail that test. Greenwald does not care about the Democratic Party

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #378)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 05:16 PM

384. Moi aussi. (nt)

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 11:26 AM

48. Democrats got more votes

for the Senate and for the Presidency in 2016 than the GOP. It's just that the Repugs have rigged the elections.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)


Response to Post removed (Reply #50)


Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 11:48 AM

52. All this was/is bullshit.

Voters that elects Right Wing Nuts are right wing nuts.

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Response to INdemo (Reply #52)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 06:59 PM

152. I agree

But some pretend to be progressives. JPR provides plenty of examples.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 11:56 AM

54. TRANSLATION: Dems Lose When RIGHT WINGERS Don't Vote For Dems!!!

Leaving aside that you're absolving that antidemocratic abomination called the EC blameless, one can ALWAYS claim the Dems didn't win an election for the lack of votes. Duh!

But the reality is Humphrey LOST. Nixon got more votes than HHH and 10 million voted for Wallace. 10 million preferred a RIGHT WING candidate. Who are you going to blame for that?

Many were pissed at HHH's connection to LBJ's Vietnam War and his support for the Civil and Voting Rights Acts.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)


Response to Post removed (Reply #55)


Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 12:07 PM

59. Bless your heart.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 12:10 PM

60. so whether Dems run a lefty or "centrist" candidate and lose, it's lefties fault?

Dems have pulled to the right even when the public was overwhelmingly to the left of them on trade, health care, Wall Street, and war.

If Democrats in Congress and Obama had dumped the secret, corporate-written TPP and its cousins, they would have deprived TRUMP of an issue.

When Trump is able to outflank you on on left, you have fucked up big time.

Also, if Obama had aggressively prosecuted some Wall Street bankers or even attached some serious strings to the second half of the Wall Street bailout, he would have won over a lot of RIGHTIES.

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Response to yurbud (Reply #60)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 12:15 PM

63. We are in irrelevant fringe minority, yet we have the power to swing elections.

That's the Great Progressive Paradox, according to the sensible woodchucks.

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Response to QC (Reply #63)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 01:48 PM

82. Only close elections...I wish that you had the power to win...but I have never seen that.

I am a liberal and would like to see a majority of liberals...but it won't happen anytime soon. Trump won as a populist which is a very different thing than a liberal. Like it or not...if we look at the states, and Congress...the country has moved right...I consider this country to be center left in terms of the population.

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Response to QC (Reply #63)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 06:04 PM

134. What policy iniatives have you accomplished in the last 60 years?

Don't give me stuff Democrats and the Democratic Party has accomplished, we are corporatist suck ups, remember?

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #134)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 10:00 PM

177. no excuses

 

.

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Response to yurbud (Reply #60)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 06:14 PM

137. How have Democrats pulled to the right?

Last edited Sun Mar 5, 2017, 06:52 PM - Edit history (1)

Tell me what is more conservative about the 2016 platform than 1992? When is this period when the Democratic Party met your standards?

There were a number of civil prosecutions of Bankers under Obama. What law or legal strategy should have been used to criminally prosecute them? No one has yet to answer that question. The candidate who argued that point for years couldn't answer the question. You'd think basic curiosity, if nothing else, would promote someone to consider the legal provisions for something they have complained about for years.

Thank goodness you're relieved of the horror of Obama as president and can finally get back to making America great again. Happy now?

The true "progressives" on JPR insist Trump can do no wrong. They couldn't be happier with the results of their hard fought efforts to move the country "left." Funny how that "left" just happens to resemble fascism. And obviously corporatism isn't the slightest concern, as they pretended. The billionaires populating the cabinet aren't a problem. Hillary giving speeches and earning money that rightfully belongs to white men, now that's a problem. Abolishing EPA, no big deal. Hillary wouldn't ban all fracking, so she was worse.

And what you are worried about now is that Obama didn't criminally prosecute bankers under laws you don't bother to name. Who cares if Trump has put a money launder as head of Commerce? Who cares if the rest of his appointments are intended to destroy the agencies they head? The real problem is something Obama didn't do in 2009, not that Trump is working to end regulation of Wall Street.

The OP is wrong on one major thing. What he calls the "extreme left" are not leftists at all. Not if they worked to install a fascist as presidency. Fascism is what fascism does.

There once was a true left in this country before it was systematically purged, deported, and imprisoned. None of them were stupid enough to believe the Democratic Party was the party of the left. It never has been. Not during the height of Jim Crow, not during the era of McCarthyism and the Cold War, or when dollar men from Wall Street and industry populated presidential cabinets--not during any of the good ole days so-called "leftists" long to return to.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #137)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 05:13 PM

380. Great post-the Democratic party is being split by the extreme left

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Response to yurbud (Reply #60)


Response to yurbud (Reply #60)

Tue Mar 7, 2017, 07:19 PM

340. That is what this OP is about.

 

To make us move even farther to the right. By blaming the powerless left.

Where is all the blame toward Reagan Dems? How about those 200k Dems that voted for Bush in 2000 in Florida?

Oh right, those powerless lefties!

It is pathetic anyone still falls for this RWing propaganda.

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Response to Rex (Reply #340)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 06:44 AM

360. The left is not powerless

 

That is the point. The left can be very powerful if is would unite and stop splitting its vote because some insist on 100% ideological purity.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #360)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 05:12 PM

379. Well then get your centrists allies to stop blocking the left and stop losing seats.

 

You can pretend it is the left's fault all you want to, history just does not back up your claims. Sorry.

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Response to Rex (Reply #379)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 07:41 PM

406. It is not about fault or blame

 

It is about uniting to fight a common enemy.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #406)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 07:44 PM

410. Your OP is all about fault and blame, are you going to pretend now it is not?

 

All over the road with this one now, figures.

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Response to Rex (Reply #410)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 07:51 PM

422. It's not

 

And you're sounding very defensive. So did you vote for the Democratic party nominee in 16?

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #422)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 07:52 PM

423. It is.

 

I voted for HRC, who did you vote for you sound angry all the sudden.

Your OP is totally about blame.

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Response to Rex (Reply #423)

Sat Mar 11, 2017, 10:44 AM

542. It's not

 

And I leave the anger and defensiveness to you.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 12:17 PM

64. it's what that 10-15% IS. Privatizing public education is not small potatoes for teachers & parents

Centrists and even a lot righties wouldn't think you're a commie if you said every kid deserve a good PUBLIC public school to go to with small classes, a teacher free to do their job as they see fit, and no tax dollars diverted to contractor profits.

If the people at the top of the Democratic Party could pick a few issues where they say NO to Wall Street and go aggressively in the other direction, especially where Wall Street is dead wrong, maybe you could win back what you've lost in congress, state legislatures and governor's mansions.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 12:24 PM

65. Part of the problem is lefties think that just because the GOP did it, we can too.

 

But guess who the billionaires aren't going to pour money to fund think tanks and indoctrination centers for???? The best part is that the socialists who have ACTUALLY WON actually, at least temporarily, made common cause with the center/center-left tp advance their goals. You'll find a lot of "mainstream Democrats" actually support things that DSA types want, but they have to be tactical about it.

Also no analysis of left-wing tactical stupidity is complete without the SPD versus KPD division that prevented the Left from stopping Hitler.

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Response to forjusticethunders (Reply #65)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 06:13 PM

136. There are many billionaires that are Democrats.

The situation is billionaire Democrats seldom are rigid minds like most republican billionaires, so they have been historically less likely to pour money into mind control efforts.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 12:25 PM

66. I don't disagree with some of this...but the point seems very divisive and I must say

I am suspicious of your motives...after all, the GOP could win if they manage to continue to divide Democrats...this was what the Russian lead Wiki attack was intended to accomplish, and it worked to some degree...it seems to me what this post may be intended accomplish the samething...divide and conquer...with all the trouble ahead with the GOP, we don't need this shite.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #66)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 06:21 PM

140. The Russian hacks and wikileaks propaganda worked because many

on the far left bought into the bullshit demonization of Hillary. The Russians saw an opportunity during our primary and took it. Hillary didn't help herself with her penchant for hanging onto stuff (like speech transcripts and emails) that she should have made public from the first day she entered the primary (I hope politicians on our side learned from that, if there is something that you are afraid of, don't get your ass into the race, but if there is nothing there, release every ducking thing the day you enter and be prepared to explain everything).

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)


Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 12:29 PM

70. Diversion and divisive thread....Keep on topic - Comrade Trump Russian operative

 

Just like tRump saying Obama did a wiretap - just a diversion.

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Response to Talk Is Cheap (Reply #70)

Tue Mar 7, 2017, 06:17 AM

312. So like Trump

 

you're making an accusation without any evidence.

Unfortunately, sometime the truth hurts, trying to deny it doesn't solve the problem.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 12:47 PM

72. Hippy punching never goes out of style.



Remember....



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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #72)


Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 01:03 PM

75. Hillary Clinton received 3 million MORE votes than that piece of maggot shit in the wh.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 01:11 PM

76. Wrong. The conservative media gave us Trump and Reagan

To expand a bit- Trump was given to us by the ultra rich and corporations, by funding the conservative media, and funding think tanks, SPN, ALEC, and Norquist.

Remember how hard the Murdoch-owned NYPost worked to get Reagan elected.

Note that there was a right-wing third party candidate this election too - Johnson.

If you want to fix America, you need to fix the conservative media noise machine and the GOP donor class. And you need to keep the left wing.

Hell, your "ultra left" is even wrong. Chomsky is the ultra left, not Stein.

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Response to sharedvalues (Reply #76)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 07:47 PM

163. I like Noam

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 01:11 PM

77. Trump won the votes of 27% of registered voters.

If this 27% is what you consider to be "a large and secure base", we have an issue with your use of words.

And given that polling shows that majorities of voters prefer much of the progressive agenda, your framing progressives as "the extreme left" shows more of your own position than anything else.

This sounds to me like more of the we must become more like moderate Republicans argument that occasionally surfaces here.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #77)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 02:19 PM

83. and many Trump voters were actually anti HRC voters.

I believe the last Quinnipiac poll showed 60% believed he was unqualified to be president.

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Response to eniwetok (Reply #83)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 02:35 PM

86. In Trumpspeak, this 60% is a small minority of unhappy Clinton supporters.

while his 27% base is the silent majority.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 02:21 PM

84. Nothing more SICKENING then left bashing on a supposedly progressive site.

Blaming the folks with no power for all that is wrong is BULLYING. DU is moving more to the right every day and the DEM party will continue to lose if DU is a reflection of the party. One right wing party is enough.

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Response to m-lekktor (Reply #84)



Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 02:39 PM

88. nope

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 02:48 PM

89. People have to stop blaming the Left for the rise of Trump

There are like 5 other more important things that put Trump in the position he's in. Not leftists and Jill Stein voters. People have to cut out this divisive rhetoric.

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Response to DemocraticSocialist8 (Reply #89)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 04:29 PM

98. Denial is not just a river in Africa

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #98)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 04:39 PM

101. It's not denial...it's inaccurate to blame the Left and incendiary

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Response to DemocraticSocialist8 (Reply #101)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 04:45 PM

104. I am living with the effects of the voter suppression laws made possible by Nader

Votes have consequences. Why do you think that Rove and the GOP funded Nader in both 2000 and 2004. It was not because they believe in Nader but because they used Nader to win. Ignoring facts will not make these facts go away

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #104)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 04:59 PM

109. It's been shown that more Dems voted for Bush than Nader, but no one blames DINO Dems that

voted for the Republican...people only blame Nader voters. Also, even with the Nader votes, had tons of Black votes not been thrown out in Florida and had they been counted...Gore would've won anyway. The Nader attack for 2000 is overblown by some Dems. Just like blaming the Left for Trump is even more overblown.

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Response to DemocraticSocialist8 (Reply #109)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 05:01 PM

110. Read the material on this thread

Your claims are wrong

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #110)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 05:25 PM

118. I am not...I think you should read this...

http://reason.com/blog/2016/08/03/ralph-nader-did-not-hand-2000-election

24,000 Dems voted for Nader in Florida
308,000 Dems voted for Bush in Florida

No one blames DINO Dems for losing Florida...but people are quick to attack the Left and continue pushing this lie.

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Response to DemocraticSocialist8 (Reply #118)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 07:18 PM

156. Did you read it? Bush won Florida by 500 votes

Nader gave Bush the win. Why do you think Karl Rove funded Nader? Do you think that Rove supported Nader's positions? Rove used Nader to steal the election and people who were stupid enough to vote for Nader helped.

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #156)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 07:31 PM

159. So you're just going to repeat the lie even after being shown the numbers that say otherwise?

LOL gotcha. 308,000 Dems voted for Bush in FL...but Nader gave Bush the win...not the Dems who voted for a Republican or the Black votes that weren't counted. Ok, you just don't want to admit you're wrong. I don't blame you, the Democratic Party has been blaming Nader for 2000 since 2000 and people want to believe it regardless of countering evidence.

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Response to DemocraticSocialist8 (Reply #159)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 09:58 AM

252. Did you even read the material you linked to?

You are completely wrong in your attempt at analysis. Charlie Cook is far more knowledgeable than your source http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-zuesse/ralph-nader-was-indispens_b_4235065.html

Nader-voters who spurned Democrat Al Gore to vote for Nader ended up swinging both Florida and New Hampshire to Bush in 2000. Charlie Cook, the editor of the Cook Political Report and political analyst for National Journal, called “Florida and New Hampshire” simply “the two states that Mr. Nader handed to the Bush-Cheney ticket,” when Cook was writing about “The Next Nader Effect,” in The New York Times on 9 March 2004. Cook said, “Mr. Nader, running as the Green Party nominee, cost Al Gore two states, Florida and New Hampshire, either of which would have given the vice president [Gore] a victory in 2000. In Florida, which George W. Bush carried by 537 votes, Mr. Nader received nearly 100,000 votes [nearly 200 times the size of Bush’s Florida ‘win’]. In New Hampshire, which Mr. Bush won by 7,211 votes, Mr. Nader pulled in more than 22,000 [three times the size of Bush’s ‘win’ in that state].” If either of those two states had gone instead to Gore, then Bush would have lost the 2000 election; we would never have had a U.S. President George W. Bush, and so Nader managed to turn not just one but two key toss-up states for candidate Bush, and to become the indispensable person making G.W. Bush the President of the United States — even more indispensable, and more important to Bush’s “electoral success,” than were such huge Bush financial contributors as Enron Corporation’s chief Ken Lay.

Read post 100 on this thread and you will see that your claims are simply false

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #156)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 10:53 AM

259. Links????

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Response to G_j (Reply #259)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 03:07 PM

271. Bush won by 537 votes

You got to be kidding. Here are some facts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Florida,_2000 Bush got 2,912,790 votes and Al Gore got 2,912,253 The difference between these two numbers is 537 votes

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #271)

Tue Mar 7, 2017, 10:04 AM

319. You've got to be kidding

I don't see Karl Rove mentioned in your link.

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Response to G_j (Reply #319)

Tue Mar 7, 2017, 11:11 AM

327. Read the links in this post

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #98)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 04:18 PM

283. And petulant blaming is not just for children.

And petulant blaming is not just for children. Two bumper stickers, each as petulant as the other...

I suppose if the best argument you posses is a simplistic bumper sticker, you may want to read some peer-reviewed, academic texts and theses to appear more rational.

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Response to DemocraticSocialist8 (Reply #89)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 09:33 PM

171. Why?

What's divisive about it? None of those Stein voters are eligible to participate in DU. Stein continues to attack Democrats, often falsely, like when every single Dem voted against a Trump nominee and she insisted it was the fault of "corporate Dems." She made clear she favored Trump over Clinton, which is precisely the stand third-party voters took. That played a role. So why does that information need to be censored here? She is currently $4 million dollars richer (and she was already rich) because she scammed money off of vulnerable people desperately upset about the election results. She way overinflated her ask in order to keep the money, and then she did keep it. Why does that kind of predation require special protection?

I particularly don't understand the divisive claim because, as I said, this site is for people who vote for Democrats, not Stein or anyone else. How is it any more divisive than comments about the deplorables? Anyone who continues to post here after voting for someone besides Clinton in the GE is in violation of the TOS. That means they lied when they signed the TOS after election day, and it also means they lack the integrity of their convictions if they would falsely misrepresent themselves in that way. I fail to see how the OP is divisive to anyone who posts on this site honestly. And if they are lying, why do they require protection against their deceit?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #171)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 09:54 PM

175. Thank you for making that absolutely clear, BainsBane. nt

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #171)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 10:29 PM

184. While that may be true, Stein has support on the Left

So while it may jive on DU, in reality it's divisive because there are liberals and progressives that support the Green Party, but could also support the Democratic party if the Dems ran more Progressive candidates. So you're spitting in the face of people you need to win electorally.

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Response to DemocraticSocialist8 (Reply #184)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 11:05 PM

193. If "Dems ran more progressive candidates"

That is exactly the OP's point. There are also others who might vote Democrat if we ran more conservative candidates. Why are the self-described leftists more important? The fallacy in your point (one I've seen repeated a number of times) is that the Democratic Party is supposed to constitute the left. It has never been the left in any true (eg. Marxist) understanding of the term. It's only left in comparison to the GOP and because the US has a relatively narrow political spectrum, but one that is becoming wider all the time. The parties were in the past far more alike ideologically than they are today. There is no evidentiary basis for the claim that the Democratic Party has become "GOP lite."

Candidates are determined by the outcome primary elections and caucuses. They will claim those contests are "rigged" because their entitlement is such they can't imagine anyone but themselves has a legitimate concern or might vote differently from them. What is so special about people who have such contempt for equal voting rights that they prefer to plunge the country into fascism than vote for a candidate supported by Democratic electoral majority?

Do you mean like these assholes? http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=8752749
The ones defending multiple billionaires in Trump's cabinet as "anti-establishment"? Who defend the Muslim ban and breaking up immigrant families? The ones who maligned and insulted people of color and social justice advocacy leaders and organizations like Planned Parenthood, Black Lives Matter, Mothers of the Movement, the United Farm Workers Union, Unions in general, and Civil Rights leaders like Dolores Huerta and John Lewis?

You see, what they really are is self-entitled. They resent the fact the party isn't devoted entirely to the interests of the white male bourgeoisie. They claim the Democratic Party has moved to the right, but they provide no evidence to support it. Instead, they resent the fact that is represents people of color and women, and that is why they chose to stand with the KKK in voting for Donald Trump or effectively voting for him by casting a vote for liar and con-woman Jill Stein.

It's one thing to make a mistake and learn from it. I myself did that in 2000 when I voted for Nader. It was a very bad mistake that I will never repeat. I learned my lesson. I don't expect the Democratic Party or people on this message board to cater to my more stupid, younger self. It's up to them, as it was up to me, to get smart, not to the rest of us to hold their hands and insulate them from the consequences of their actions. They fucked up. If they want to admit that and move on, all the better. But if they are going to continue rat fucking and driving the country further and further right, they better damn well own up to what they are. Fascism is as fascism does.

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Response to DemocraticSocialist8 (Reply #184)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 11:09 PM

197. Also

I posted a threat asking people to explain what they meant when they wanted the Democratic Party to become more progressive. It was notable how few said anything different from Clinton proposed when she ran for the general election. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028719428
Some did, but most didn't.

We see a lot of people insisting individual politicians represent ideology, but that's a mistake. That is about personality, in some cases race or gender, but not ideology.

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Response to DemocraticSocialist8 (Reply #184)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 03:09 PM

272. If you voted for Stein, then why are you posting on DU?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #171)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 03:20 PM

273. It's divisive because we should be making the far left our ally. I'm among the far left by the way

 


I just happened to vote for Clinton at the end of the day, BECAUSE enough progressives held out and pressured Clinton and the party to move left on our platform. That was reassuring, and I was hopeful of a Clinton Presidency, and not so certain that a Trump Presidency would be entirely shut down by the powers that be had I sat out, although as people did augur, he is waking us the fuck up to politics and their consequences again. So anybody bashing the left and hiding behind our most impressive liberal platform in a long long time, is being disingenuous about how that even happened.

And I don't begrudge people who vote on principle. I may disagree with them, or think they are being short-sighted, or entirely willfully ignorant, ...I don't think Stein was an inspiring or entirely trustworthy candidate....but ascribing straw-man reasons for their decisions here, is not in good faith, nor is it in our best interest. Placing all the blame for W or Trump at the feet of liberals, when they account for a tiny fraction of that loss and have nothing to do with down-ticket elections( where Democrats continue to get clobbered), is being willfully ignorant, and promoting an anti-liberal message of "fall in line."

No. If people feel like the whole nation is going in the wrong direction, and one party is just mildly applying the breaks while we pick up downhill speed, and the other is pressing the pedal to the metal on a breakneck course to destruction--they have an obligation to vote their conscience and to be a hold-out that doesn't just give their vote away to one side for being "better." we need to be good as a party, not just better, and the only way we get there is with a counter-balance to the political heavyweight in Washington, money, which I fully understand is hard to ignore, but is especially so when there is no cover from constituency demands to do so. Were people who thought this would blow up in the GOP's face wrong? That remains to be seen. There's certainly evidence to say that this will generate a whole new generation of political activists, and a civic minded society. There's also evidence that this is going to fuck us the fuck up, irreconcilably. Like I said, the way I weighed it, it wasn't worth the risk, and I was feeling confident in Clinton for the first time.
So I disagree with the hold-outs for not coming around when the Dems responded at least to some degree to our issues, but it's not like I don't see where they're coming from, and as I've posted elsewhere, this loss is not on them.

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Response to JCanete (Reply #273)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 10:49 PM

298. By all means

Last edited Tue Mar 7, 2017, 12:15 AM - Edit history (2)

Go make overtures to the White Supremacists. I'm not stopping you. And certainly I understand their hatred for all things not white and male is "principled." It happens to be a principle I believe to be evil. You are free to admire and cultivate them all you like, but you don't for a second use the word "we" to lump me in with that crowd. I mean it. This is not the first time I have made that request.

Stein operated because of cash. She got plenty of it. It's fascinating that all people need to do to be defended on conning the poor and vulnerable is to declare themselves "leftist". The investment bankers really ought to start calling themselves leftist so they can get people who care more about labels than actions to defend them.

I really don't give a shit what fascists "feel." They chose to drive the country to the authoritarian right and continue to defend the unstable autocrat they installed. Trump is their doing, and they can continue to defend the cabinet of billionaires and racist policies ripping families apart because the party responsible for it isn't Democrat. They got exactly what they wanted with Trump. America is white, male, and rapier again. Thank god for "leftists" ensuring the country is finally moving in the right direction. And if Trump succeeds in stripping away voting rights of the subaltern, the "left" will be able to count control the Democratic Party again, just as they did in the days of Jim Crow when the party met their standards. Because time and time again that is precisely the period they point back to.

For those people the election turned on privilege, in which asserting their own privilege mattered more than the lives of the millions of Americans hurt by the election results. They were determined to punish the women and people of color they maligned, and continue to malign, as establishment. They insulted Black Lives Matter and the Mothers of the Movement for daring to concern themselves with the lives of black people, when the self- entitled narcissists insisted their concerns were all that mattered. Civil rights were a "distraction", they insisted. African Americans and women who asked candidates to address their concerns were "weak" or racist themselves--cause you know for "leftists" racism is defined by black people daring to speak about oppression. They attacked unions, worked to defund Planned Parenthood, insulted Civil Rights leaders and organizations. They nattered about " corporatism" without bothering to read Marx, analysis of the capitalist state, or lean anything about their own nation's history. The Tea Party had already engaged in that same discourse about corporations since 2009, but suddenly a certain faction decided to incorporate many of the Tea Party's positions, and we're supposed to believe claims they are leftist?

They did indeed believe the country was moving in the wrong direction. A black president who was poised to be succeeded by a woman--a lowly woman--was too much for them to bear. And people of color and women kept picking Democratic nominees due to the fact there are simply more of them who vote Democrat. That was unacceptable. How dare they not vote as the self-entitled demanded? One particularly foul rat fucker who no longer posts here insisted that corporations had sent women and people of color into the Democratic Party into divert it from its true mission of representing the "working class." (Funny how working class now excludes nearly everyone earning at or below the median income). So they did what the rest of the deplorables did, vote into power a white supremacist, fascist regime. But America is great-- white--again, and that's what really counts.

I won't be putting on a hood to liaise with the Trump supporters you've decided constitute some perverted version of leftism that the white male bourgeoisie cooked up to justify their own privilege. I have my own principles, and they will never accommodate fascism, White Supremacy, or deepening inequality in order to satisfy the self-entitled.





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Response to BainsBane (Reply #298)

Tue Mar 7, 2017, 03:06 AM

307. You are using far left to define people who want right wingers and racists to succeed, not me.

 


There are no leftists who want that. There may be, though I'm suspicious of the claim, people pretending to be leftists who want that..but there are also those, right or wrong, who think that both parties as is, are bad because they move our country in the same direction, and that the slower, foot on the brakes, gradual increase approach, is far more lulling than the step on the gas approach of the Republicans. They are absolutely right about that last part, as has been proven. Are they right that we can survive a Trump Presidency to emerge better off? That's the question, and I like you, am not so certain.

Nobody on the left wants to make overtures to white supremacists. Nobody on the left wants to pander to them. What we want to do is reach people who can be reached, who's ignorance is making them susceptible to racist messaging, again, not by pandering to those basest instincts...but certainly by giving them an out so that they can distance themselves from them.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #171)

Wed Mar 8, 2017, 05:15 PM

383. Stein voters voted for Trump and many of these voters are happy that trump won

I simply do not understand their logic

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Response to DemocraticSocialist8 (Reply #89)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 09:51 PM

174. No. Dangerous#1 Dangerous#2 Dangerous#3













they damn well will.. sitting on their millions while the Planet goes to shite and people go hungry and Immigrants banned from the US by "the bumbler" according the ever present idiot, jill stein

We will not shut up about the danger of the LIAR stein.

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Response to Cha (Reply #174)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 11:14 PM

198. She's an evil rat fucker

Fascism is as fascism does.

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Response to Cha (Reply #174)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 09:55 AM

251. Great post

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 02:53 PM

90. Bullshit! Bobby's assassination gave us Nixon; Tony Scalia gave us Bush; Putin gave us Trump.

The far left my ass.

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Response to Zen Democrat (Reply #90)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 04:31 PM

100. Nader gave us bush

Nader was key to bush's victory http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-zuesse/ralph-nader-was-indispens_b_4235065.html

Nader-voters who spurned Democrat Al Gore to vote for Nader ended up swinging both Florida and New Hampshire to Bush in 2000. Charlie Cook, the editor of the Cook Political Report and political analyst for National Journal, called “Florida and New Hampshire” simply “the two states that Mr. Nader handed to the Bush-Cheney ticket,” when Cook was writing about “The Next Nader Effect,” in The New York Times on 9 March 2004. Cook said, “Mr. Nader, running as the Green Party nominee, cost Al Gore two states, Florida and New Hampshire, either of which would have given the vice president [Gore] a victory in 2000. In Florida, which George W. Bush carried by 537 votes, Mr. Nader received nearly 100,000 votes [nearly 200 times the size of Bush’s Florida ‘win’]. In New Hampshire, which Mr. Bush won by 7,211 votes, Mr. Nader pulled in more than 22,000 [three times the size of Bush’s ‘win’ in that state].” If either of those two states had gone instead to Gore, then Bush would have lost the 2000 election; we would never have had a U.S. President George W. Bush, and so Nader managed to turn not just one but two key toss-up states for candidate Bush, and to become the indispensable person making G.W. Bush the President of the United States — even more indispensable, and more important to Bush’s “electoral success,” than were such huge Bush financial contributors as Enron Corporation’s chief Ken Lay.

All polling studies that were done, for both the 2000 and the 2004 U.S. Presidential elections, indicated that Nader drained at least 2 to 5 times as many voters from the Democratic candidate as he did from the Republican Bush. (This isn’t even considering throw-away Nader voters who would have stayed home and not voted if Nader had not been in the race; they didn’t count in these calculations at all.) Nader’s 97,488 Florida votes contained vastly more than enough to have overcome the official Jeb Bush / Katherine Harris / count, of a 537-vote Florida “victory” for G.W. Bush. In their 24 April 2006 detailed statistical analysis of the 2000 Florida vote, “Did Ralph Nader Spoil a Gore Presidency?” (available on the internet), Michael C. Herron of Dartmouth and Jeffrey B. Lewis of UCLA stated flatly, “We find that ... Nader was a spoiler for Gore.” David Paul Kuhn, CBSNews.com Chief Political Writer, headlined on 27 July 2004, “Nader to Crash Dems Party?” and he wrote: “In 2000, Voter News Service exit polling showed that 47 percent of Nader’s Florida supporters would have voted for Gore, and 21 percent for Mr. Bush, easily covering the margin of Gore’s loss.” Nationwide, Harvard’s Barry C. Burden, in his 2001 paper at the American Political Science Association, “Did Ralph Nader Elect George W. Bush?” (also on the internet) presented “Table 3: Self-Reported Effects of Removing Minor Party Candidates,” showing that in the VNS exit polls, 47.7% of Nader’s voters said they would have voted instead for Gore, 21.9% said they would have voted instead for Bush, and 30.5% said they wouldn’t have voted in the Presidential race, if Nader were had not been on the ballot. (This same table also showed that the far tinier nationwide vote for Patrick Buchanan would have split almost evenly between Bush and Gore if Buchanan hadn’t been in the race: Buchanan was not a decisive factor in the outcome.) The Florida sub-sample of Nader voters was actually too small to draw such precise figures, but Herron and Lewis concluded that approximately 60% of Florida’s Nader voters would have been Gore voters if the 2000 race hadn’t included Nader. Clearly, Ralph Nader drew far more votes from Gore than he did from Bush, and on this account alone was an enormous Republican asset in 2000.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 03:28 PM

91. aw, bless your heart.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 04:16 PM

93. ...

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)


Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 04:44 PM

103. We are our worst enemy. The far left gave us Nixon, twice

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Response to demosincebirth (Reply #103)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 06:23 PM

141. They will never accept responsibility or fault.

 

We see that in their "profound" responses in this thread. They say "Bullshit" and "Nope."

On the contrary, those calling out their self-destructive behavior have provided clear examples of how the radical left has fucked over this country.

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Response to liquid diamond (Reply #141)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 11:05 PM

194. You go to the far left, you can shake hands with the far right.

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Response to demosincebirth (Reply #194)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 07:37 AM

244. Yes. I just learned that

 

is called horseshoe politics. Fringe leftist and right wingers use the same fucking talking points to tear down our candidates. We have heard them. We have examples.

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Response to liquid diamond (Reply #244)

Mon Mar 6, 2017, 11:35 PM

301. They don't have to be "fringe."

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 05:08 PM

111. Bullshit.

Keep up the hippie punching. It's been working so fucking well.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Original post)

Sun Mar 5, 2017, 05:37 PM