CHURCH and STATE - Two SEPARATE things!

[orangecrush]

Last edited Fri Mar 10, 2017, 10:37 PM - Edit history (1)

James Madison said...
1. ? Because we hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth, “that Religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence.”2 The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate. This right is in its nature an unalienable right. It is unalienable, because the opinions of men, depending only on the evidence contemplated by their own minds cannot follow the dictates of other men: It is unalienable also, because what is here a right towards men, is a duty towards the Creator. It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage and such only as he believes to be acceptable to him. This duty is precedent, both in order of time and in degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society. Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governour of the Universe: And if a member of Civil Society, who enters into any subordinate Association, must always do it with a reservation of his duty to the General Authority; much more must every man who becomes a member of any particular Civil Society, do it with a saving of his allegiance to the Universal Sovereign. We maintain therefore that in matters of Religion, no mans right is abridged by the institution of Civil Society and that Religion is wholly exempt from its cognizance. True it is, that no other rule exists, by which any question which may divide a Society, can be ultimately determined, but the will of the majority; but it is also true that the majority may trespass on the rights of the minority.3


https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Madison/01-08-02-0163

[FiveGoodMen]

1. Meant to be that way; needs to be that way, but...

...a significant fraction of the US public doesn't want it that way.

GOP leaders want a compliant church to produce a compliant public. And that's been working out well for them since Reagan.

Members of 'evangelical' churches have been convinced that they're in a war for their survival (and also that god really WANTS them to run things) so they have no qualms about violating church/state separation.

We keep citing these documents and their history as though they will protect us. They won't.

The only thing that's ever protected us was people's respect for those concepts and those documents.

If the public loses that respect, then the Constitution really is 'just a piece of paper' as Dubya was quoted saying.

We reassure ourselves that our understanding of this is correct -- and it is -- but that isn't swaying those who are against us.

[yeoman6987]

2. It would have been better for Madison to get a law passed

instead of saying it in a speech. But he probably never thought it would get this bad.

[caroldansen]

3. There must always be a separation between church and state.

[orangecrush]

4. They won't get away with their plan

Too many of us.

They keep forgetting that somehow.

Hang on to your seat.

[Skittles]

5. SEPARATE

[orangecrush]

6. Thanks

For not kicking my ass!