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Sun Jul 1, 2012, 03:53 PM

 

Passed, Signed, Upheld



'Health Battle Enters Round 2'

The pathetic headline above appeared on the front page of the WSJ yesterday. This is the corporatist right-wing's version of democracy today. It's not enough for Congress to pass landmark legislation and for the President to sign it (at least not this President). After all of that democracy, the right needs to test our product of legislative government against their conservative dominated court; not on the merits of the law, so much, as a gamble against their stacked majority.

Next, presumably, they want a re-do of the last presidential election to re-shuffle their etch-a-sketch and wipe out history with a supposed wave of their corporate-executive's hand. Romney and the rest are busy telling their supporters that they'll have a shot at undoing this health care law, in their favor by just electing them to office.

That might well be a possibility, but it's certainly wishful thinking. I'll say this, though . . . this will be their last shot at manipulating the democratic process which brought us the ACA and pretending like it's some unsettled law which is open for debate.

We win this damn election and we make the ACA the new 'third rail.' Damned if we're going to let these politicians and their flacks pretend like the last three years of this presidency and its legislative accomplishments were just some aberrations. We lived and breathed this history and they are fighting with our futures to undo all of it and replace it with NOTHING!

Round two? KICK THEM TO THE CURB!



22 replies, 3696 views

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Arrow 22 replies Author Time Post
Reply Passed, Signed, Upheld (Original post)
bigtree Jul 2012 OP
bvar22 Jul 2012 #1
frazzled Jul 2012 #2
bigtree Jul 2012 #5
BumRushDaShow Jul 2012 #7
Chorophyll Jul 2012 #10
bvar22 Jul 2012 #12
bigtree Jul 2012 #13
bvar22 Jul 2012 #19
SunsetDreams Jul 2012 #9
bvar22 Jul 2012 #20
SunsetDreams Jul 2012 #21
bvar22 Jul 2012 #22
bigtree Jul 2012 #3
DCBob Jul 2012 #4
leftstreet Jul 2012 #8
DCBob Jul 2012 #17
99Forever Jul 2012 #6
bigtree Jul 2012 #11
99Forever Jul 2012 #14
bigtree Jul 2012 #15
99Forever Jul 2012 #16
bigtree Jul 2012 #18

Response to bigtree (Original post)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 04:27 PM

1. Forcing every American to buy Health Insurance from For Profit Corporations?

"the new 'third rail" ???

Giving the 1% a mandated nice, big cut of our Tax Payer Money, right off the top for doing absolutely NOTHING?
"the new 'third rail" ???

FDR and LBJ are weeping.

The American People OWN and Administer Social Security and Medicare as a Non-Profit piece of our Common Wealth.

What do the American People get to OWN in the ACA?


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Response to bvar22 (Reply #1)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 05:24 PM

2. It's passed, signed, and upheld ... but you want to keep arguing it.

It's over. Actually, it's been over for two years.

If you want to see it improved, you can work to do that over the next few years (once it actually is fully enacted in 2014). And if you want it to be improved, you'd better damned well get out there and work to get a Democratic president and Senate and House elected. Because your utopian dream is nothing but a laughable hallucination if McConnell and Ryan and Romney and Boehner and crew are in charge.

And PS: FDR and LBJ would be rejoicing. Neither was above cutting deals with for profit corporations to get what they wanted, like the NRA and Medicare. Read about it, and disabuse yourself of your romantic notions of FDR and LBJ, in "How Liberals Win," from today's NYT:

PRESIDENT OBAMA has endured much criticism of his legislative skills from his fellow progressives. His conciliatory approach has been compared unfavorably with Franklin D. Roosevelt’s gleeful pugnacity and Lyndon B. Johnson’s relentless arm-twisting. His willingness to strike deals with corporations has been tagged “business as usual.” Many progressives, frustrated over the past three years, have concluded that the political system is fundamentally broken because corporate power has been allowed to suffocate popular liberal policies.

... The necessity of corporate support for, or at least acquiescence to, liberal policies is not a new development in the history of American liberalism. Indeed it has been one of its hallmarks.

Roosevelt may be remembered for his combativeness toward corporations; he famously said, “I welcome their hatred.” But he said that in 1936, only after key New Deal legislation had passed with the help of the United States Chamber of Commerce and the American Bankers Association.

Early on, Roosevelt was quite adept at bargaining with corporations. In his first 100 days, to attract corporate support for the National Industrial Recovery Act, he won collective bargaining, minimum wages and maximum hours in exchange for a temporary suspension of antitrust law, so businesses could fix prices. To establish the Securities and Exchange Commission in 1934, he made concessions to Wall Street that scrapped statutory requirements in favor of regulatory flexibility. The following year, to allow the Federal Reserve to better conduct monetary policy, he gave bankers representation on the policy committee.

Johnson also found little value in warring with corporations. He won a Keynesian tax cut in early 1964, defeating budget-conscious conservatives, thanks to a broad coalition that included corporations. He attracted business support to back his first antipoverty bill by junking plans to promote family farming and push businesses to hire long-term unemployed people. He created the Transportation Department, in 1966, only after exempting resistant shipping interests from its jurisdiction. He incited a new era of environmental protection, increasing federal responsibility for cleaning air and water, while defusing corporate opposition by trading away federal pollution standards.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/01/opinion/sunday/how-liberals-win.html?_r=1&ref=opinion

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Response to frazzled (Reply #2)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 07:16 PM

5. wow, frazzled

 

snap!

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Response to frazzled (Reply #2)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 07:37 PM

7. Wow. Good historical commentary! n/t

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Response to frazzled (Reply #2)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 07:48 PM

10. Dayum!

In today's paper, no less. Well done. I'm getting weary of everyone trying to turn this into a disaster when it's anything but. Can we do better? Yes. But I'm glad for this start.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #2)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 07:55 PM

12. Sure.

Show me the next step.
Social Security established the FOUNDATION of a Publicly Owned/ Government Administered Program.

Medicare established a Publicly Owned Government Administered Program.
It was easy to expand these programs because of their established foundations.

What foundation has been established in the ACA that we can add to and expand?

HOW do we get from
Every American MUST purchase Health Insurance from For Profit Corporations

TO

Government Administered Publicly Owned National health Insurance?
(The vision of FDR, LBJ and all Traditional Democrats)

I'm trying to SEE it,
but all I can see is a step TOWARD the Privatization of Health Care,
(a long time Conservative Republican vision)
...a step we will have to undo before we can take a step in the right direction.

So exactly WHAT is the next step in this fight?
What is the next brick we can add to this non-existent foundation?


As far as [font color= red] "disabuse yourself of your romantic notions of FDR and LBJ, "[/font]

I am too young to remember FDR,
but my Working Class Mom & Dad were there.
They remember, and taught me how important these programs were.
I personally remember LBJ, Medicare, Civil Rights, and The Great Society.
I was THERE, and HELPED him do it.
I KNOW the difference.
You can try to discount the work of these great Democrats and Traditional Democratic Party Values,
and you WILL find some Centrist fans here,
but your little invective carries no weight with me.

Tell me in concrete, specific terms exactly WHAT we have "WON"?
And, if you are honest & willing, detail WHAT we have LOST.
Every "WIN" cost something.
What did we give away to get this "WIN"?

HINT: You would want to take a good look at Justice Robert's opinion.
He threw out President Obama's justification of the ACA on the Commerce Clause,
and instead substituted the Government's Power to Tax.
THAT is truly scary.



When I was younger, I always enjoyed The Carnival.
I watched in wonder as rubes spent $20 playing a rigged game to "WIN" a $2 prize,
and they ALL walked away flushed with victory celebrating their big WIN.
Meanwhile, the Carnie would fold the rubes money into his pocket, loudly bemoaning his "Loss",
but privately thinking "I can do this all day long.
I mean ALL day long."


...so go ahead and celebrate the BIG "WIN",
but it would be wise to also look for what we have lost.
IMO, it isn't a very good deal.

A good hustle always leaves the Mark believing he WON something.
Just look at all the rubes playing the electronic Poker machines in a Casino and shouting out, "I WON!!!"

---bvar22
a loyal, mainstream-center FDR/LBJ Working Class Democrat for over 46 years,
and I WILL be holding on to my traditional Democratic Party Values.



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Response to bvar22 (Reply #12)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 07:59 PM

13. look at Vermont and California

 

. . . both are working within and on top of these advances to craft their own individual state's version of universal coverage. The ACA is their platform. Ask Bernie Sanders . . .

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Response to bigtree (Reply #13)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 01:16 PM

19. A minor clause in the ACA has allowed the individual States...

...to go forward with plans the might lead to an individual State Run Public Option.... someday.

This may or may not work.
We will see.
I pray for their efforts.

Individual States already have Community Health Centers,
a non-profit health agency care that receives government assistance.
Why not simply increase funding to this already existing Non-Profit system?
That would have the same results, if not better, than trying to build a brand new system from scratch.

At the current time, I don't see HOW the individual states can produce a successful local Public Option.
Even the national Public Option predicted a very small number of "customers",
less than 10 Million NATIONWIDE.
Divide that by 50, and that is a very small risk pool.
Add in the certainty that the For Profits, nationwide will spend every dollar they have to make SURE that no state is successful with a Local Public Option.
It will be just like a Mom & Pop grocery taking on WalMart.

The MANDATE is signed, sealed, and delivered.
It is LAW.
It is also now LAW that the IRS will serve as the Enforcement Arm of the For Profit Insurance Cartel.
The local Public Option is Wishful Thinking at this point.
It doesn't exist NOW, and (AFIC) probably won't exist in the future.

Are you willing to weigh these two,
and then tell me "We got a good deal"?
That is like saying, "Jack sold the family cow for a handful of beans,
BUT they might be MAGIC!"



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Response to bvar22 (Reply #1)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 07:43 PM

9. Actually that's not true

ACA Mandate Myths & How the Affordable Care Law Affects You
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002888920

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Response to SunsetDreams (Reply #9)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 01:33 PM

20. Your marketing brochure for the ACA in that thread contains some bogus information.

1) Even if someone already HAS Health Insurance from their employer,
they are most probably STILL buying it from a For Profit Health Insurance Corporation.
Some very large Corporations with a large risk pool DO operate their own in-house Insurance Company,
but those usually make money, and none are break even.

So, YES, it is absolutely TRUE that the ACA MANDATES by LAW that every American MUST buy
health Insurance from a For Profit Corporation.

2)The Medicaid Expansion to 133% of the poverty line WAS STRUCK DOWN by the Supreme Court.
Mercifully, the Supreme Court DID say that States could do this on their own if they are so inclined.
Most of the Governors that have spoken up since the Medicaid mandate was struck down say they probably will NOT go with the medicaid expansion.

There are other errors in your cut & paste marketing post,
but I honestly am not inclined to rebut it in depth at this point.
The very first two were shown to have gaping holes in them that I addressed above.

Cheers.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #20)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 04:55 PM

21. I'll let the facts speak for themselves when one goes to the link

Regarding your number 2 that is absolutely false. The Supreme Court DID NOT STRIKE DOWN that provision, what they did was say the states had flexiblity not to expand Medicaid if they chose to do so, and if they did they wouldn't have to PAY THE SAME PENALTY that the law called for. That is very different than it being struck down. Your last sentence contradicts your first.

It's interesting that you call that a marketing brochure.

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Response to SunsetDreams (Reply #21)

Tue Jul 3, 2012, 02:40 PM

22. The Supreme Court DID strike down...

..the MANDATE for ALL states to expand their Medicaid Program to cover everyone below 133% of the Poverty Line.
Making this program "optional" IS striking down the MANDATE to do so.


The reason I labeled your post on that thread a "Marketing Brochure" is because that is exactly what it is. Any pamphlet that goes beyond the truth to make something appear more attractive than it is in real life, and fails to mention any of the negatives IS a "Marketing Brochure".

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 07:16 PM

4. Anyone refusing to accept ACA at this point is in effect refusing to accept the US constitution.

ACA has legitmately passed through all three brances of our government and is now the law of the land. If someone does not like that they need to work to elect those that agree with them and change it. Until that happens they just need to get over it.

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Response to DCBob (Reply #4)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 07:40 PM

8. When will seniors have to start buying their own Medicare? n/t

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #8)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 09:19 PM

17. Maybe when the GOPers take over completely.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 07:28 PM

6. By 1973...

.. Roe vs. Wade became "passed, signed, upheld."


Nice to see that we got passed that one, eh?



Have a ball doing your "victory lap."


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Response to 99Forever (Reply #6)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 07:52 PM

11. oh, this is no 'victory lap,' 99Forever

 

I'm walking the beat. Anyone who wants to step in and eliminate these gains without a equivalent and suitable replacement agreed to and ready for passage gets the stick.

See anyone with their hands on Roe . . .?

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Response to bigtree (Reply #11)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 08:21 PM

14. I tell you what I do see, buddy.

I see Democrats still getting bludgeoned and defeated through tactical use of Roe vs Wade nearly 40 years later. I see glassy-eyed people voting and giving HUGE amounts of support, EVEN when everything else the shitball Rethuglican dickheads running do, is counter to their own best interests. Sorry you can't see beyond the superficial, but not in the least surprised.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #14)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 08:37 PM

15. superficial?

 

. . . you're complaining about the politics behind Roe v. Wade -- and the potential politics surrounding this health legislation. You think the real world effects of the provisions of the ACA are as 'superficial' as the politics?

A better political comparison than Roe would be Social Security or Medicaid. This act will get the same muscular defense from Democrats and others who will benefit from its provisions. Look away from the sniping and follow the lead of the folks who are using this legislation to enhance, protect, and preserve their very lives.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #15)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 09:17 PM

16. Don't wordsmith my comments pal.

You aren't capable nor am I interested in playing your games of diversion. Roe vs Wade IS a PERFECT example of how Rethuglicans take an issue and slam shallow thinking rubes to the ground with them. If you think those scheming bastards for one second actually want to reverse Roe vs Wade OR "overturn" ACA, then you are ripe for the picking. Have someone who isn't wearing blinders explain it to you.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #16)

Sun Jul 1, 2012, 10:34 PM

18. no wordsmithing here, pal

 

you're plainly talking politics; I'm talking real world substance. That trumps most politics; just like the politics against overturning Roe and the other initiatives I mentioned overcome the political opportunism.

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