Americans Are Pretty Skeptical That Hard Work Will Pay Off

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

Hard work is often touted as the key American virtue that leads to success and opportunity. And there’s lots of evidence to suggest that workers buy into the belief: For example, a recent study found that Americans work 25 percent more hours than Europeans, and that U.S. workers tend to take fewer vacation days and retire later in life. But for many, simply working hard doesn’t actually lead to a better life.

In the past, economists have acknowledged that citing hard work as the path to prosperity is overly simplistic and optimistic. Ultimately, whether hard work alone can lift people into better economic conditions is a more complex question. The formula only works if an individual’s efforts are met with opportunities for a better life. According to research, it’s getting harder and harder for Americans to move up the income ladder.

A new poll from the Strong, Prosperous and Resilient Communities Challenge (SPARCC), an initiative to bolster local economies, found that Americans are quite skeptical of the narrative connecting wealth with personal agency. SPARCC found that 74 percent of those surveyed believed that most poor people work hard, but aren’t able to work their way out of poverty due to the lack of economic opportunities. In the U.S., 19 percent of income inequality is attributed to predetermined circumstances such as a person’s race, gender, and parental income. The SPARCC report also points to past research showing that economic mobility and health outcomes are greatly affected by geography as evidence that individual hard work won’t ensure success because opportunities aren’t evenly distributed.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/04/hard-work-mobility/522207/

[greytdemocrat]

1. Hard work

Will lead to success. That has always been my
experience. Whining is for losers.

[hunter]

3. What a nice fantasy you live in...

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

4. Yes and no

Studies have shown upward mobility is harder to achieve in the U.S. than may European countries.

Of course one has to work hard to achieve but how far one gets also depends on a bit of luck as well as where ones starting point is. That was the point of the article.

[greytdemocrat]

11. I understand and agree

to a point.

But I also see a lot of whiners.

[LanternWaste]

57. What precisely is the relevance of "what you see..."?

What precisely is the relevance of "what you see..."?

[LiberalLovinLug]

24. If that is true then how the tables have turned

Pioneers immigrated to the US not only for religious freedom but also to have the ability to achieve anything and go further economically than they could back home. That the old money European families had a chokehold and it was virtually impossible to move up from your predetermined class.

[Igel]

34. Partly true.

But you have to get past the soundbite editions of the research on the op-ed pages.

We constantly hear quoted how hard it is to be upwardly mobile in the US.

1. "Upwardly mobile" is defined something like going from the bottom 20% to the top 10%. The numbers vary a bit. But notice, it's a huge jump, and when we measure the percentiles we're looking at accrued wealth.

My aunt was in the top 1 or 2% the last few years of her life. Then again, she started out in the bottom 20%. She got to the top percentiles by staying married, both her and her husband working their entire lives, by not having kids and being absurdly frugal while simultaneously investing every spare cent with the long-term in mind. You want to have $3 million in assets, you slowly build it up. So her heirs also wound up in the top 1 or 2%.

Just having two kids would have prevented this. Kids cost money, and that money wouldn't have earned compound interest or dividends. Their house would have been too small, and they would have needed a bigger one. There'd have been obligatory trips, college.

2. When equality is less, when you can go from near bottom to near top with $200k in assets, it's easier.

What a lot of people in the US do is go from the bottom 20% to the second, third, or fourth 20%-ile. Which means that they're as well off or better off than the European average. But we don't look at those numbers because the conclusion isn't outrage-stoking.

3. Usually income inequality is mismeasured. European numbers typically include a lot of government spending. Healthcare, for instance, or rental subsidies. American numbers typically don't.

One wag actually looked at all the official numbers involved in income inequality in the US and found that the typical low-income family was somehow magically spending quite a bit more than they received in income. The only conclusion was that if the numbers were right, most poor people made 50% or more of their income on the black market or didn't declare it. Or that the researchers didn't bother to say that a lot of the expenses were somehow covered by either government disbursements or vouchers.

The same works for the wealthy. By quoting pre-government-influenced income for the poor, you get their total income figures depressed; by quoting pre-government-influenced income for the wealthy, you get their total income figures inflated. It's esp. bad with CEOs, where their income is capped but stock options of indefinite worth that can only be used in the future are "current income" at present valuation, and where retirement benefits accrued today are considered income. (Meanwhile, I'm invested in a government retirement plan and the present net value of that asset is judged $0.)


4. Upward mobility does require luck. 19% is based on prior factors, not the person. On the other hand, 81% is not based on things like race and family income. Again, we get mired in the bottom 20%-ile with no hope of getting out of it when, really, it's not that hard. A lot of the bottom 20% in the US are undocumented immigrants and their families, the elderly, and some people predestined, it seems, to suffer from permanent crappy choices and luck.

[Orrex]

5. Hard work is one of many factors

And it is very far from the most important factor.

[PoliticAverse]

15. Be sure to choose your parents wisely. n/t

[Orrex]

20. Yeah, I think that's where I screwed up.

Total lack of foresight on my part. Doh!

[treestar]

7. The article is written in a thoughtful way

It is not "whining."

Your experience accounts for only one person.

[HughBeaumont]

9. Go bootstrap elsewhere.

My dad "worked hard" for 40 years at the price of his health and his family. He was lucky to retire and now has a myriad of health problems thanks to that job.

"Wanting it bad enough" is a "strategy" for achieving just about any goal promoted by a multiplicity of public figures, from self-help writers to mainstream celebrities, who all have one thing in common: they have already achieved their goals. These people like to talk up their own hard work by saying that:

They got where they are simply or largely because they wanted it bad enough.

You too can achieve your dream, so long as you want it bad enough as well.

Of course, none of these people's success can be in any way attributed to factors outside their own direct personal control such as patronage, privilege, opportunity or simple dumb luck.

There is also the flip side, of "blaming the victim." If you do not have the success you want, it is your fault because you didn't really want it badly enough. It has nothing to do with a bad economy, or the flat out odds against something happening.

[smirkymonkey]

60. +1000

Thank you!

[KingCharlemagne]

17. You sound just like a Republican. - nt

Last edited Sun Apr 9, 2017, 07:09 PM - Edit history (1)

[Skittles]

18. LOLOL look at you

I see hard work leading to your job being offshored quite often

[HughBeaumont]

55. Or fired simply because they "cost too much".

What do you tell workers with master's degrees that get laid off? "Supersize yer skillset, Haw Haw!"?

Corporate American Executives, blue AND white collar, are nothing but a cadre of larcenists robbing their employees.

[PatrickforO]

22. Well, it did for me, but then I am a white male baby boomer who

grew up in a middle class, suburban family during the 1960s and 1970, and was able to get scholarships and directly pay my tuition because it was CHEAP back then.

But, wake up! Read a bit about neoliberal capitalism and the slow coup that has ended with Trump in office. That's what Grover Norquist wanted, you know, a dumb guy in the WH who is just a 'pen' to sign legislation the Republican controlled Congress sends him.

The whole 'privatize everything, deregulate everything and take away all social safety nets because they increase dependency' philosophy has been carefully crafted by big bankers, billionaires and the military industrial complex to rape the treasury.

Consider this: we pay a lot of taxes. I know I do. And I have a legitimate concern that those tax monies I pay into OUR government, that is supposed to be OF, BY and FOR us, the people be used for programs that actually benefit me, like single payer healthcare and taxpayer subsidized postsecondary education.

Unfortunately, the big capitalist neolibs don't see it that way. They want that money to line their own pockets. This is why we have:

1. Supply side, or trickle down economics - the idea that if we cut taxes on corporations and on the wealthy, it will actually create jobs and so increase revenue HAS BEEN PROVEN NOT TO WORK for decades. Decades. But tax cuts for corporations (these can take the form of loopholes, 'free' trade agreements allowing free movement of capital and just plain reductions) translate into higher net profits.

2. If we used the government as the neoliberals want, as merely a 'defense' provider, then the military industrial complex profits through billions in government contracts that could, in a society organized around social justice, be instead used to increase the standard of living for the American people.

You know, I'm kind of wondering about you...you are on THIS SITE and you don't know this???

Really???

[IronLionZion]

28. Only if you ignore opportunity and privilege and any lucky breaks

you had along the way. I had lots of lucky breaks and some bad luck and blatant racial discrimination. I know for a fact that it was not just hard work that lead to my current standard of living. I had help.

And I work in IT. Things get really messed up when you get into crony corporations and powerful people deliberately trying to screw over those who are less powerful. Hard work doesn't help as much when people cheat and bribe their way into keeping others down.

[tenderfoot]

31. No one works harder than Trump, Kushner, Kardashian

they're rich...see!

[KPN]

33. Whining IS for losers.

But that doesn't mean hard work pays off for everyone. That is basically the judgement that your response to this Post describes. There are plenty of hard working people who have not been rewarded for their hard work to the extent you may have.

I'm not complaining here -- my hard work has led to personal and financial success as well. But in my 66 years, I have observed a very clear trend in which an ever increasing number of people haven't been able to do as well as you or I despite their "hard work". Clearly, the opportunities for rewarding hard work have shrunk dramatically over my lifetime. As a young adult, the best ticket to success was a college degree. That is no longer true, even for those who can afford it. .... Instead, today, it seems the only sure way to basic financial security is a military career.

[milestogo]

36. So do you consider someone who works 3 jobs to be working hard?

Because that is the status of a lot of people today. 3 jobs at minimum wage that don't offer any benefits. There are a lot of people working multiple jobs and struggling to survive financially.

[Alice11111]

52. Often true, but I have seen many people who work very hard,

and can barely make ends meet, or still can't make ends meet...much less get ahead.

I would say, unless you are born into money, hard work is usually necessary to get ahead, but it is not sufficient for many people, through no fault of their own.

[hunter]

2. If hard work paid off...

... our President would be a strawberry picker.

[2naSalit]

25. and I woud be wealthy...nt

[dchill]

53. And that's assuming that our "President" is successful.

From what I can tell, he owes at least at much as he is worth, and what he got he either inherited or scammed. But hey, that IS the definition of success in today's good ole USA.

[NutmegYankee]

6. The only time I found hard work to payoff is

gardening. Getting money and a good job is luck and talent.

[OhZone]

40. Yup. n/t

[GulfCoast66]

43. I bet you do not do it for a living

Because I have. And gardening for a living pays way less than a teacher makes and wears you body out by the time you are in your 50's.

[NutmegYankee]

44. I was referring to my vegetable gardens in my backyard.

I have a six figure income as an engineer, but like to spend time gardening in raised beds as a hobby.

The comment was meant to be humorous.

[GulfCoast66]

50. I pretty well understood your meaning

And was not insulted, and am not meaning to insult you.

But please keep in mind that the people who work in vegetable production work their ass off not because they want to but because that is what is available.

I also have been fortunate enough to achieve my way to a very nice income. But I was not smart enough to be an engineer. I had to start at the bottom of the Agriculture field and work my way up.

I think we probably agree on most issue, but please realize that the work you do in your garden because you choose to is a job that other do because they have no choice. And they do it for 10 hours a day and get paid shit for it. I work with them daily so I admit I am probably over sensitive to this issue.

Take care and have a nice evening.

[Hoyt]

8. If all factors were equal, I think those who "work" a little harder would probably tend to do better

Last edited Sun Apr 9, 2017, 07:00 PM - Edit history (1)

in terms of job/economic success. However, there are some jobs where hard work is only going to help you keep that job. If I had continued toting shingles up a ladder for a roofing company, I don't think I would have ever done any better, no matter how many shingles I carried.

However, all factors are not equal. And, a lot of people have a perverted sense of "success." Is harder work "kissing ass?" That certainly leads to success in many cases. Education helps with success nowadays. Often, race and sex become something that one has to overcome to be successful.

It's much more complicated than "how hard you work."

[Igel]

35. There are different kinds of "hard work."

1. Sweat equity is one kind. It's the least useful in many ways. Hard labor is competing with a lot of other people who can do the same labor.

2. Skill equity is a second kind. I got a very good job for a while because when I was in college instead of going for just good grades I went for mastery. A language major, I insisted on knowing every word and every nuance of what I read in my target languages. It meant I spent hours more a week studying than my peers.

Then when a call for translators went out, I applied. Perhaps 50 people got sent samples to translate. Mine came back with a couple of red marks. I got the job. When the temp gig ended a year and $150k later, they called me back for some additional work. When that ended they offered me a full-time job. The commute was too far so I said no.

"Luck" let me see the job posting. Hard work made me not just qualified, but enviably qualified. I made twice what other freelancers on that job made, mostly because while they were struggling to sort out what something meant I was already asking for the next document and resented being slowed down by incompetent in-house glossaries and the need to go back and open already approved documents because of glaring mistakes.

The same happened with my present job. I applied for one opening. During the interview, they said they were after somebody with a different skill. I had it. While the field was undergoing a substantial RIF, I was hired on my second interview. That second skill took effort to acquire, and was "just in case." It took effort, but meant I was ready when "just in case" showed up.

3. Social equity is another. When I was unemployed I had networked in church, school, etc., and when there was a temp manual-labor job available I knew the person. No job posting was ever made. Most studies show that those in the bottom 10-20% typically talk with a lot of people but seriously network with few. Distrust seems to prevail, so they rely on close family and perhaps 1-2 others. That's no way to run a community.

4. Open-mindedness and flexibility is a fourth kind of equity, and takes work. I had no idea what to do at one point in my life. But I knew I could learn any of dozens of fields, so I picked one at age 50. It was one in demand, so ageism wasn't a big deal--it was hire the old guy or leave the job that had been unfilled for 5 months continue to be unfilled during crunch time. When we moved where we are, a lot of people were unemployed, but refused to consider a different kind of job or additional training--and even ridiculed the guy who was going in debt to earn additional certifications. Of course, when he got a job 6 months later making $15k/year more than his old job, everybody said he was still stupid, he was just lucky.

He laughed at them. They went into foreclosure and had to move. His family didn't.

[Warpy]

10. Hard work these days pays a pittance to make some other bugger rich

so I'm not a bit surprised by this. Wages have simply been allowed to fall too far and people have lost hope of anything better. The demand side has just about been choked off and throwing more people out of work so robots can cram stores chock full of crap nobody's got the money to buy is going to be a spectacular failure.

[MineralMan]

12. A lot depends on other factors.

What job you are working at, who the employer is, whether the position you're in can even lead to advancement, and many other things.

If you're assembling stuff in a factory, hard work probably won't get you into the offices and a great-paying job. If, on the other hand, you end up in the offices at a good company, have the right education, work hard, keep learning and are good at relating to others, you do have an opportunity to advance.

On the other hand, going on your own and starting your own business is often a better option. Then, hard work, resourcefulness and your own creativity can work for you in building that business. What business? Well, that depends on your abilities, interests and choices. But, many people do it and succeed. Others don't.

Bottom line, it's a matter of preparation and hard work at every aspect of what you're doing, not just physical hard work. Everything can be hard work, from understanding what's necessary to succeed to making that happen.

Still, if you're a wage slave, the odds are decidedly against moving beyond a mid-middle-class income. Usually, there's no path to that from wherever you happen to be. Only as your own boss can you create the path that leads to your goals. Working for someone else or a corporation means that you aren't in control of the path.

[panader0]

13. As a bricklayer for 40+ years, it has been my observation

that the ones who work the hardest, physically, make the least money.

[crosinski]

21. My father, a WW II Vet who spent his working years as a pipe-fitter in a factory,

would agree with you. I would too.

[raccoon]

39. Exactly, if just hard work made people rich, farm workers would be rich

and people who work for landscaping companies would be too.

[Go Vols]

49. yep,working from the neck up pays much better.

Ironworker.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

14. Location, Location, Location

This is a little bigger than the individual, there are some places where you have to proactively set yourself up to fail, there are others where the local structural issues are so great there isn't a whole lot anyone could do.

[Johnny2X2X]

16. Learning

The ability and desire to learn leads to success. And this is almost 100% inherited from your parents.

[CousinIT]

19. Because usually, and on its own, it doesn't.

Luck, where in society and in the World you were born (and to whom) and what color and sex you were born, educational opportunity available to you, etc. all play a part. But just busting your ass day after day by itself? Nope.

Remember they started calling black people "lazy" when they stopped working for free. What did working hard get them? More slavery.

The whole "lazy" mantra shot at whomever has not been able to be a success (however you define that) is pretentious hypocrisy usually tossed out by those endowed with privilege at birth as justification that the privileged are somehow more deserving of that success without having done much of anything to earn it. It's an ugly thing.

For those not born white, or male or wealthy (or any combination thereof) or in a First World country, they start off life without any bootstraps to even pull up. They're 10 points behind to begin with. Before pulling up on the bootstraps they have to make the boots instead of having some handed to them upon popping outta their Momma.

So there are a lot of things that go into this and for that reason the "hard work" mantra is frankly, bullshit.

[warmfeet]

23. Virtually everyone I know works very hard indeed.

How come they are not all millionaires? How come I am not a millionaire? Many people work multiple jobs and can barely make ends meet. It's a chumps game to believe that hard work alone does much of anything.

[Mr.Bill]

26. My father was an aircraft mechanic.

He worked hard, never got rich but made a decent living. He once told me "When you are at work, never lift anything heavier than a pencil." Truer words were never spoken.

Of course, like most kids, I didn't listen to dad's advice when I was young. I worked in the trades, like he did, never got rich and made a decent living. Later in life, when I had jobs where I never lifted anything heavier than a pencil, I made more money than I ever had before.

[Kablooie]

27. Plenty of golfing pays off big time though.

[roamer65]

29. Working smarter, not harder leads to a better life.

We are in the technology age.

[Warpy]

32. Rubbish. If the whole country decided to become stock brokers

and work at hedge funds maximizing numbers for the already rich, which is what pays the best in this country, who would do all the other work that needs to be done?

Nearly all work is necessary whether you consider it "smarter" or not. The paycheck should support the worker. Period.

[roamer65]

37. Guess I should have put this below it.

I was in a bit of a sarcastic mood when I wrote it...lol.

[Initech]

30. Why work hard when your boss makes 150 times more than you ever will?

And your job can be cut at any time, and the party who you support does not support you back?

[taught_me_patience]

47. Umm... what other choice do you have? Not work hard?

then you have a 0% chance of success. How about working hard for pride or self satisfaction?

[jpak]

38. Work hard and be fucked harder - The American Way

yup

[dalton99a]

45. +1

[crazycatlady]

41. I used to work in finance

And I was never offered anything beyond entry level (and it was difficult to find). Every interview I went on asked me why I went to a state school and why I worked during college. I worked at a big box store during college. If I had a dime for everyone who told me to stay in retail, I'd give this fat fuck in the white house a run for his money. I went to college to NOT work in retail. But because I did, it seemed I was doomed to a life of retail.

It seemed the industry was looking for rich kids who went to Ivy League schools.

[moondust]

42. Not so much now.

Back before Reagan, globalization, financialization, widespread automation and offshoring, jobs, skills, and hard work were more highly valued; back before corporations and Wall Street screwed Main Street to maximize profits and further enrich CEOs and stockholders at the expense of working people.

[Yavin4]

46. Depends on what type of hard work that you're doing.

Jobs in our economy are sorted into high wage and low wage professions. You can put in long hours as an investment banker and make obscene amounts of money or you can put in long hours as janitor and barely be above the poverty line.

Not all work compensated based on the number of hours that you put in.

[ronnie624]

48. "Pay off", of course, means 'make me rich'.

Americans have been indoctrinated to believe they have a moral imperative to possess more than they need for a comfortable, secure existence. Personal wealth is the primary measure of ones inherent worth. We're told incessantly that it's our duty to pursue wealth, but no one can need more than they need.

And the article doesn't mention the the tens of trillions of dollars worth of secret, untaxed investments, the purpose of which is to further enrich the wealthiest of the wealthy.

[dchill]

51. Hard work, sometimes, doesn't even result in survival...

Let alone any actual degree of success, especially in the long run.

[Cha]

54. They should have taken a long hard look

at what people like President Obama and First Lady Michelle have accomplished through HARD WORK.

[The Big Ragu]

56. Wealthy people don't work

[RadiationTherapy]

58. Whether or not hard work "pays off" is up to the wealthy owners.

It is merely a moral thought-exercise for the poor. One may choose to work hard for moral reasons, but whether it "pays off" is a separate and independent dynamic.

[taught_me_patience]

59. Many younger Americans are not patient enough to let the hard work pay off

I have a good example from my personal experience. When I owned a coffee shop, I loved my head barista and gave him a strong indication that I was going to sell the business to him with very favorable terms. All he would have to do was work hard, learn the business, and save 20k. It was a golden opportunity for a young, hungry, guy who was the hardest worker that I've ever seen. He couldn't save money... preferred to go out and spend it on craft beers and his girlfriend. I cried when he gave his two weeks and he's still slaving away as a barista at another shop.