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boston bean

(36,219 posts)
Thu Apr 27, 2017, 04:19 AM Apr 2017

Marine Le Pen May Get a Lift From an Unlikely Source: The Far Left

PARIS — The far-right leader Marine Le Pen faces an uphill battle in France’s presidential runoff, less than two weeks away. But she saw daylight through a small window on Tuesday, and from an unlikely source: her defeated counterpart on the far left.

Alone among all of France’s major political personalities, Jean-Luc Mélenchon, the leader of his own “France Unsubjugated” movement, who finished a strong fourth in Sunday’s voting, has refused to endorse Ms. Le Pen’s opponent, the former economy minister Emmanuel Macron.

Mr. Mélenchon’s critics say his obstinacy is petulant, wounded pride that can only help Ms. Le Pen’s National Front. But it also speaks to the passions that Mr. Macron, a seemingly mild-mannered centrist, provokes in large parts of the French electorate, far left and far right, who share a view of the 39-year-old former investment banker as a fire-breathing incarnation of evil market culture.


https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/04/25/world/europe/france-melenchon-macron-le-pen.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0&referer=https://t.co/RjPDwj6HES

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Marine Le Pen May Get a Lift From an Unlikely Source: The Far Left (Original Post) boston bean Apr 2017 OP
deja vu BainsBane Apr 2017 #1
Seems global. And well orchestrated. boston bean Apr 2017 #2
I've seen that movie. betsuni Apr 2017 #3
It's already running around the clock, 7 days a week. democratisphere Apr 2017 #4
So it's Macron that worries you? Tommy_Carcetti Apr 2017 #10
What do you mean? fun n serious Apr 2017 #12
I'll walk you through it. betsuni Apr 2017 #13
Sorry it's early and pre-coffee for me. Nt Tommy_Carcetti Apr 2017 #14
Of course, the little darlings.. Skidmore Apr 2017 #5
Macron needs to point out JustAnotherGen Apr 2017 #6
Mais oui! Behind the Aegis Apr 2017 #7
Like jill stein LIED her head off to help trump.. a pawn Cha Apr 2017 #8
Hmmm ... just what BlueMTexpat Apr 2017 #9
Not an unlikely source, but rather an obvious source DFW Apr 2017 #11
Thank you for the insight Lee-Lee Apr 2017 #16
Mainstream media here is pretty objective DFW Apr 2017 #39
Thank you! And F the alt left! (or whatever you want to call the pro-Putin, anti-NATO left) Ezior Apr 2017 #20
Both of you are giving accounts that make me fear for the future of Europe Lee-Lee Apr 2017 #26
The seeds ARE here. But so far, except for Hungary, they are mostly dormant. DFW Apr 2017 #40
Germany is a different situation DFW Apr 2017 #48
Pretty much no difference between the far left and far right anymore. JTFrog Apr 2017 #15
Yep, useful for drumpfuck Cha Apr 2017 #21
I don't look at them much at all, DFW Apr 2017 #49
Same here. I can't begin to understand it though. nt JTFrog Apr 2017 #51
I don't think rational thinkers do. You either immerse yourself in their mindset..... DFW Apr 2017 #52
Difficult bucolic_frolic Apr 2017 #17
To be fair, Macron was secretary of whatever (economic affairs?) before Ezior Apr 2017 #24
Correction retrowire Apr 2017 #18
Why do you pretend there are no extremists? JTFrog Apr 2017 #19
Because retrowire Apr 2017 #22
This post sure explains a lot n/t kcr Apr 2017 #29
As long as you're not misinterpreting it then I'm glad. Nt retrowire Apr 2017 #34
This message was self-deleted by its author JTFrog Apr 2017 #53
Oppressing the mens. betsuni Apr 2017 #35
Right, which is not what feminism is about, correct? Nt retrowire Apr 2017 #36
Funny how you relate oppression of men to feminism. boston bean Apr 2017 #41
OMFG YOURE SERIOUS? retrowire Apr 2017 #42
Wow how many bad feminists have you met?! boston bean Apr 2017 #43
None retrowire Apr 2017 #44
Oh my. boston bean Apr 2017 #45
You're being rude. Nt retrowire Apr 2017 #47
This message was self-deleted by its author JTFrog Apr 2017 #54
Too late, the far left and the far right are joined at the hip- Your posts will not change that snooper2 Apr 2017 #55
Sure if people keep falling for the trolls impersonations retrowire Apr 2017 #56
This article is complete BS oberliner Apr 2017 #23
To be fair, his voters are not as dumb as he seems to be Ezior Apr 2017 #25
a majority of them either won't vote or will vote for le pen. wow.... boston bean Apr 2017 #31
follow the money. mopinko Apr 2017 #27
He's a Putin fanboy Ezior Apr 2017 #28
yup. the jill stein of france. mopinko Apr 2017 #30
This message was self-deleted by its author boston bean Apr 2017 #32
send it to rachel mopinko Apr 2017 #33
Go figure! NurseJackie Apr 2017 #37
Hmm... This story plot seems familiar for some reason... Blue_Tires Apr 2017 #38
Sounds familiar. hrmjustin Apr 2017 #46
Ah, the summer reruns. Is Putin the head of programming for all networks? FSogol Apr 2017 #50

betsuni

(25,380 posts)
3. I've seen that movie.
Thu Apr 27, 2017, 04:36 AM
Apr 2017

I've used those exact words, "mild-mannered" politician turned into an evil monster. I have a feeling this movie will have many sequels.

democratisphere

(17,235 posts)
4. It's already running around the clock, 7 days a week.
Thu Apr 27, 2017, 05:05 AM
Apr 2017

I wish whoever keeps hitting the "On Demand Button" would STOP!

 

fun n serious

(4,451 posts)
12. What do you mean?
Thu Apr 27, 2017, 06:18 AM
Apr 2017

Why would anyone think Macron was evil? Protectionist, Nationalist, anti- immigration people are the most evil IMO

betsuni

(25,380 posts)
13. I'll walk you through it.
Thu Apr 27, 2017, 06:20 AM
Apr 2017

It is bullshit that Mr. Macron, "a seemingly mild-mannered centrist" is seen as "a fire-breathing incarnation of evil market culture." I agree with this.

Skidmore

(37,364 posts)
5. Of course, the little darlings..
Thu Apr 27, 2017, 05:10 AM
Apr 2017

I have come to loathe people who think like this. They are callously destructive, no matter where they live.

DFW

(54,302 posts)
11. Not an unlikely source, but rather an obvious source
Thu Apr 27, 2017, 06:06 AM
Apr 2017

I am in France three times a month, have been doing so for decades, and speak the language close to fluently.

Both in France and in Belgium to the north, initiatives and polemics from the far left have been so extreme and misguided that one could almost suspect that there is no real far left here any more, but rather just an SNL routine set up to make the far right look good. What passes for the "moderate" left here would be considered screaming radicalism in the USA, so don't compare the two.

But in a place like Belgium, where the right and left are also somewhat ethnically divided (the French-speaking Wallons tend leftward where the majority Vlaamse tend in the other direction), the left managed to bring in hundred of thousands of Moroccans with practically no integration or settlement guidance other than "becomes citizens, vote for us, and we'll take care of you." Well, they did all but the last part. The only "care" they gave was to grant them immunity from practically all prosecution (in the name of "tolerance&quot and give them greater welfare benefits (in the name of "integration&quot than to European Belgians. The very predictable reaction was for the majority Flemish to develop a seething hate for both the Walloons and the Moroccans, and far right groups suddenly had audiences beyond their wildest dreams.

In France, it was more of a laissez-fare tactic than active coddling, but the effect was the same. The far right, once a fringe movement, suddenly had something they could point their collective fingers at. The French Communist Party was almost mainstream, and was represented in almost every election. You couldn't scare the French with "kommanists."

But when Arabs started beating up cops in "no-go" areas, and then, lately, started attacks with mass murder, Le Pen suddenly had a "you need us" argument (like Cheney after 2001) they never had before. All the French and Belgians had to do was apply the same legal standards to thei new citizens that they applied to everyone else, and the far right would never have gotten a centimeter off the ground. But the more the population got the impression, fanned by sensationalist media, that the left thought that violence was "tolerable," ever higher taxes were needed to build more free housing and, not coincidentally give government functionaries free limos, huge pensions, and other lifetime privileges, and the far right was practically writing thank-you notes to their counterparts on the left for giving them a new lease on life.

It was all so predictable, and many DID predict it. But just like the multitudes that predicted a Trump presidency as being a disaster, the warnings and the accuracy of the predictions still didn't prevent the disaster from happening--at least in the USA. France, who is just coming off a disastrous five year "socialist" presidency, seems to be maintaining a collective cooler head. Hollande and Mélenchon would, you might think, be driving the French voters into Le Pen's waiting arms. I don't think it's gonna happen this time. There are no bigger critics of French politics than the French, themselves, but even though all my friends down there tell me their number one choice this year is "none of the above," not one of them says Le Pen is number two.

 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
16. Thank you for the insight
Thu Apr 27, 2017, 06:44 AM
Apr 2017

How is the media there covering the issues that give the far right traction? Sensationalism that drives even more to them? Balanced coverage?

DFW

(54,302 posts)
39. Mainstream media here is pretty objective
Thu Apr 27, 2017, 09:34 AM
Apr 2017

In Belgium, for a while, the press was forbidden by the government to report that violent crimes had been committed by Moroccans. Cynical Belgians started to say that such and such a robbery and/beating was done again by "the Swedes." Since it was forbidden to say Moroccan, they said "Swedes," and everyone (including people from Sweden) knew what was really meant. Even the Moroccans were tired of this because it only fueled blanket resentment against them as a group where 98% of them are perfectly peaceful, law-abiding citizens.

Most coverage is balanced here, even if there are a few rags in every country. In Germany and Austria, Holocaust denial is a rare on-the-books restriction on free speech. Nazi propaganda is forbidden in Germany, and rightist groups have to watch their step to avoid being banned. Fox never got off the ground with a German-language version. They probably knew they'd either have to change their business model or spend half their time in court defending themselves.

Ezior

(505 posts)
20. Thank you! And F the alt left! (or whatever you want to call the pro-Putin, anti-NATO left)
Thu Apr 27, 2017, 07:03 AM
Apr 2017

That was an interesting read.

There are some similarities to Germany, which is frightening. Our alt right party describes this country the way you describe Belgium and France. Apparently, there are no go areas where the police will not help you (or they will only arrive with dozens of officers to protect themselves). Personally, I don't really believe that because I've walked through one of the supposed "no go areas" (Northern Dortmund) and it was... very normal. Well, maybe the bad Romanian guys and other migrants from eastern Europe are in their homes and only come out when police is on the street, who knows... I still doubt it.

Anyway, there's at least some truth to it, as always. The recent crime statistics aren't very promising with regards to refugees. Violent crimes are on the rise. Refugees are often victims of violent refugees. The Minister who is in charge of crimes and the police tells us not to worry, because the overwhelming majority of refugees are peaceful, especially those from Syria, while there are only few who are really violent and cause a lot of trouble, mostly from Northern Africa (so we have our own "Moroccans" like in Belgium).

I wonder if our laws and executive forces are ready to handle this. The troublemakers should be either out of the country or in prison, not abusing and hurting peaceful refugees or Germans / tourists / long-time residents. Maybe the alt right party is right that we need to handle this in a different way. First, to make life better for everyone else, and second, to prevent a "Belgium or France" scenario where the mainstream left parties are to blame for huge violent crime problems, leading to election wins of the alt right who then go on to destroy everything I love about this country.

I think this was a problem even before the refugees came here. You seriously hurt someone, then a year passes, then you must go to court and say "I'm sorry" and the judge tells you not to do it again. Maybe you pay a small amount of money, maybe you are forced to do some social work, in extreme cases you might go to prison, but you will be out of prison quite soon (unless you really killed someone). You do it again, you tell the judge that you're sorry again, repeat. I can see how this is okay for first-time offenders who maybe lost control for a short time span and regret it. But we're really quite weak when it comes to violent crime and repeat offenders.

 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
26. Both of you are giving accounts that make me fear for the future of Europe
Thu Apr 27, 2017, 07:29 AM
Apr 2017

It sounds like all the seeds are there to grow a violent far-right movement in all these places.

DFW

(54,302 posts)
40. The seeds ARE here. But so far, except for Hungary, they are mostly dormant.
Thu Apr 27, 2017, 09:37 AM
Apr 2017

After all, we have a far greater identifiable ethnic "menace" supposedly among us, and yet no one like Trump is running a European Country, only in Turkey, which can kiss any potential membership in the EU goodbye with its current leadership.

DFW

(54,302 posts)
48. Germany is a different situation
Thu Apr 27, 2017, 10:03 AM
Apr 2017

There is a difference in Germany between the Grünen/B'90 and Die Linken. Sarah Wagenknecht will not be a Ministerpresidentin any time soon. As long as some of the people who celebrated the murders at the Wall during the DDR are part of that party, it will never be mainstream.

The German "Justiz" IS a problem, and that extends to an attitude toward Eastern Europeans that was there decades before the Syrians (etc.) showed up. About ten years ago, I helped catch the head of a band of Croatian thieves that had been plaguing Germany from Flensburg to Passau. We caught them in Hannover, and I helped ID their boss. Our security locked him in a room, and when we asked him for his identification, he said "nix verstehn." He had a German passport on him saying he was "Herr Becker" born in Essen. A primitive photo of him had been inserted where the original photo had been. The real Herr Becker had been in Croatia, and got his passport stolen, where it quickly landed in the hands of organized crime. When the Kripo showed up, I gave them the names of Kommissars in both München and Berlin that were looking for this guy, and they took him away. Three days later, he was brought before a judge in Hannover, who said, "es ist nur ein Passdelikt (just a minor passport violation)," and released the guy as if he had been jaywalking. We were furious, but could do nothing about it. Try entering and traveling around with a faked passport in the USA, and you can count on a three year vacation at best if you're caught.

France is not much different. I know a guy who attacked in his shop by a Bulgarian he slightly knew. The Bulgarian gained his confidence to the point where my friend invited him into the back to share coffee during slow periods. One fine day, when in the back, the Bulgarian pulled out a hammer and started bashing my friend over the head with it, trying to get at his cash register. With blood streaming from his head, my friend (who was 70 at the time) managed to get the hammer out of the Bulgarian's hand and started hitting back. The gendarmes arrived, and arrested my friend for assault.

Another guy I know in France was raided by French customs at his shop. He buys and sells old documents and coins. He caught the head of the customs brigade trying to steal an American $20 gold coin, worth maybe $1000 at the time. When he made a stink, the customs guy said he merely planned to "inspect" it. When they tried to fine him for some imagined excuse, he brought charges for attempted theft in return. The customs thief came back to his shop to try to intimidate him into withdrawing the charges. My friend said he had a film of the incident on his security camera tapes. The customs guy said they didn't prove anything. My friend said he had sound along with it. The customs guy took off, and the next thing we had heard, although he had not been charged with anything, the customs guy was removed from his financial terror brigade and reassigned to the airport, where he now inspects cheese from Switzerland (or some such hazardous material). Lax justice plus unchecked corruption (I could write volumes on what I know about goings on in Belgium) means people look upon government as their enemy. If Trump allows corruption to become as pervasive as it now looks he will, the same will happen to us back home.

 

JTFrog

(14,274 posts)
15. Pretty much no difference between the far left and far right anymore.
Thu Apr 27, 2017, 06:42 AM
Apr 2017

Just look at the idiots at JPR who trashed our candidate and then embraced Drumpf. Nothing populist, liberal or progressive about them. Just a bunch of useful idiots.

DFW

(54,302 posts)
49. I don't look at them much at all,
Thu Apr 27, 2017, 10:08 AM
Apr 2017

But I do know a few people I used to consider rational that got the "I-Hate-Hillary" bug so bad, it became an obsession. They still consider themselves to be progressives, but they fiercely shout, to this day, that if Bernie can't be president, then Trump is the better alternative. With all the crap Trump is pulling, has pulled, and will pull, they continue to insist that he is better for us than Hillary would have been.

They met reality, knew reality, married reality, and then divorced from reality in a separation so bitter, they can never be convinced to give it another try.

DFW

(54,302 posts)
52. I don't think rational thinkers do. You either immerse yourself in their mindset.....
Thu Apr 27, 2017, 10:31 AM
Apr 2017

Or else, you are totally outside it, and have no hope of figuring out what makes them tick.

bucolic_frolic

(43,062 posts)
17. Difficult
Thu Apr 27, 2017, 06:47 AM
Apr 2017

for me to see how a 39 year old investment banker is going to know a lot about politics

More financial austerity only drives more discontent and feeds right wing extremes

Ezior

(505 posts)
24. To be fair, Macron was secretary of whatever (economic affairs?) before
Thu Apr 27, 2017, 07:14 AM
Apr 2017

I do agree that his plans for austerity and generally neoliberalism (in his case, longer work hours among other things) are not necessarily good in this current environment. I hope he's not a neoliberal extremist and keeps the reforms palatable... The sad thing is, because Germany has gone neoliberal 15 years ago, France is now forced to do the same to keep up.

Macron has a positive side, too, because he's very pro-EU. Maybe he forces Germany to roll back some of our neoliberalism so we can meet halfway. I hope our politicians finally recognize the danger that lies in "cut wages, reduce social security, longer work hours – WE MUST BE COMPETITIVE!" when large parts of the population are not willing to take any more of it.

 

JTFrog

(14,274 posts)
19. Why do you pretend there are no extremists?
Thu Apr 27, 2017, 07:01 AM
Apr 2017

Both the right and the left have them. Hence "Far Left".

If you didn't push Russian propaganda or prop up a racist fascist candidate, then no one is talking about you.

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
22. Because
Thu Apr 27, 2017, 07:09 AM
Apr 2017

I won't afford the title feminist to people who want to oppress men and I won't afford the title BLM to people who want to attack others physically.

They're fake.

Response to kcr (Reply #29)

boston bean

(36,219 posts)
41. Funny how you relate oppression of men to feminism.
Thu Apr 27, 2017, 09:48 AM
Apr 2017

I never have.

In that you have excluded women who call themselves feminists by not recognizing them as such. As you believe they oppress men.

What makes you think they have oppressed men.

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
42. OMFG YOURE SERIOUS?
Thu Apr 27, 2017, 09:53 AM
Apr 2017

WOWWWW

JUST FUCKING WOWWWW

I just made a god damn example of how BAD FEMINISTS MAKE FEMINISM LOOK BAD BY TRYING TO OPPRESS MEN MAKES THEM FAKE FEMINISTS.

NOW DO YOU GET THE POINT? HUH?

Feminism is NOT ABOUT OPPRESSING MEN BUT BAD FEMINISTS MAKE IT LOOK LIKE THAT.

There, I spelled it out for you.plainly.

I CLEARLY SAID FEMINISM IS NOT ABOUT OPPRESSING MEN. WHAT THE FUCK.

BAD LEFTISTS MAKE THE LEFT LOOK BAD. BAD FEMINISTS MAKE FEMINISTS LOOK LIKE MAN HATERS.

GOD DAMN.

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
44. None
Thu Apr 27, 2017, 09:56 AM
Apr 2017

But I'm told all the time by opponents of feminism that they have met feminists that want men dead and want men to take lower pay and all sorts of shit.

And thanks to bad feminists, the fight is harder for true equality.

Are you going to own up and apologize for misinterpreting me or no?

boston bean

(36,219 posts)
45. Oh my.
Thu Apr 27, 2017, 10:00 AM
Apr 2017

So opponents of feminism you have met have provided this evidence of bad feminists who oppress men. LOL😂

Response to retrowire (Reply #47)

 

snooper2

(30,151 posts)
55. Too late, the far left and the far right are joined at the hip- Your posts will not change that
Thu Apr 27, 2017, 11:18 AM
Apr 2017

Already done- Already on the interwebs...

Too late...

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
23. This article is complete BS
Thu Apr 27, 2017, 07:10 AM
Apr 2017
According to the consultation, sent to 450,000 registered supporters of Mélenchon’s “France Untamed” movement, “None of us will vote for the far-right. But does it mean we need to give voting advice?”

http://www.politico.eu/article/melenchon-asks-supporters-if-they-will-back-macron/

Ezior

(505 posts)
25. To be fair, his voters are not as dumb as he seems to be
Thu Apr 27, 2017, 07:21 AM
Apr 2017

See the polls listed in Wikipedia: ("Voting intention by first-round vote&quot
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_French_presidential_election,_2017

~17% of Melenchon voters plan to vote for Le Pen
~45% plan to vote Macron
~38% stay home / don't know yet


The mainstream Republican's voters are worse:
~29% plan to vote Le Pen
~45% Macron
~26% undecided


So... far-left voters still make better decisions than center-right voters. That is ... not suprising.
Also, look at Hamon's number. These guys are great. They voted for a far-left-wing socialist in the first round because they like left-wing policies. About one minute after polling stations closed, Hamon asked everyone to vote for neoliberal Macron in second round because Le Pen is an enemy of the republic, while Macron is just a political opponent. And it works: Only ~5% of Hamon voters plan to vote for Le Pen.

boston bean

(36,219 posts)
31. a majority of them either won't vote or will vote for le pen. wow....
Thu Apr 27, 2017, 08:36 AM
Apr 2017

republicans I could give two hoots about. They will vote how they vote... it's the ones who are so pure politically they will allow a dismantling of everything the left desires to get more.. and NEVER get it because power begets power and the left will always be powerless if this shit keeps up.

Ezior

(505 posts)
28. He's a Putin fanboy
Thu Apr 27, 2017, 08:31 AM
Apr 2017
Mélenchon has no particular liking for Putin’s autocracy (although in 2015 he preferred to criticise Boris Nemtsov, an opposition figure assassinated that year in Moscow, rather than blame Putin for anything). But what is most striking about the far-left leader is how he’s systematically refrained from ascribing any responsibility to Russia over the war in Ukraine and the annexation of Crimea, not to mention the killing fields of Syria. Only the west is ever held guilty for anything.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/18/jean-luc-melenchon-germany-putin-french-presidential-race

By contrast, pro-Putin social media in France have been busy lavishing praise on Le Pen, Fillon and, more recently, on Mélenchon

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/12/russian-influence-looms-over-french-election

«Etes-vous pour ce que fait Poutine en Syrie ?», Mélenchon répond : «Oui. Je pense qu’il va régler le problème, éliminer Daech.»

(He supports what Putin is doing in Syria – He thinks Putin will eliminate ISIS)
http://www.liberation.fr/planete/2016/02/22/melenchon-prouve-son-amour-pour-vladimir-poutine_1435136

Response to mopinko (Reply #30)

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