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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMarine Le Pen May Get a Lift From an Unlikely Source: The Far Left
Alone among all of Frances major political personalities, Jean-Luc Mélenchon, the leader of his own France Unsubjugated movement, who finished a strong fourth in Sundays voting, has refused to endorse Ms. Le Pens opponent, the former economy minister Emmanuel Macron.
Mr. Mélenchons critics say his obstinacy is petulant, wounded pride that can only help Ms. Le Pens National Front. But it also speaks to the passions that Mr. Macron, a seemingly mild-mannered centrist, provokes in large parts of the French electorate, far left and far right, who share a view of the 39-year-old former investment banker as a fire-breathing incarnation of evil market culture.
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/04/25/world/europe/france-melenchon-macron-le-pen.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0&referer=https://t.co/RjPDwj6HES
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)boston bean
(36,219 posts)betsuni
(25,380 posts)I've used those exact words, "mild-mannered" politician turned into an evil monster. I have a feeling this movie will have many sequels.
democratisphere
(17,235 posts)I wish whoever keeps hitting the "On Demand Button" would STOP!
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,155 posts)fun n serious
(4,451 posts)Why would anyone think Macron was evil? Protectionist, Nationalist, anti- immigration people are the most evil IMO
betsuni
(25,380 posts)It is bullshit that Mr. Macron, "a seemingly mild-mannered centrist" is seen as "a fire-breathing incarnation of evil market culture." I agree with this.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,155 posts)Skidmore
(37,364 posts)I have come to loathe people who think like this. They are callously destructive, no matter where they live.
JustAnotherGen
(31,781 posts)She was endorsed by Trump.
Behind the Aegis
(53,921 posts)That is something which does need to happen!
Cha
(296,867 posts)for putin.
BlueMTexpat
(15,365 posts)does this remind me of?
DFW
(54,302 posts)I am in France three times a month, have been doing so for decades, and speak the language close to fluently.
Both in France and in Belgium to the north, initiatives and polemics from the far left have been so extreme and misguided that one could almost suspect that there is no real far left here any more, but rather just an SNL routine set up to make the far right look good. What passes for the "moderate" left here would be considered screaming radicalism in the USA, so don't compare the two.
But in a place like Belgium, where the right and left are also somewhat ethnically divided (the French-speaking Wallons tend leftward where the majority Vlaamse tend in the other direction), the left managed to bring in hundred of thousands of Moroccans with practically no integration or settlement guidance other than "becomes citizens, vote for us, and we'll take care of you." Well, they did all but the last part. The only "care" they gave was to grant them immunity from practically all prosecution (in the name of "tolerance" and give them greater welfare benefits (in the name of "integration" than to European Belgians. The very predictable reaction was for the majority Flemish to develop a seething hate for both the Walloons and the Moroccans, and far right groups suddenly had audiences beyond their wildest dreams.
In France, it was more of a laissez-fare tactic than active coddling, but the effect was the same. The far right, once a fringe movement, suddenly had something they could point their collective fingers at. The French Communist Party was almost mainstream, and was represented in almost every election. You couldn't scare the French with "kommanists."
But when Arabs started beating up cops in "no-go" areas, and then, lately, started attacks with mass murder, Le Pen suddenly had a "you need us" argument (like Cheney after 2001) they never had before. All the French and Belgians had to do was apply the same legal standards to thei new citizens that they applied to everyone else, and the far right would never have gotten a centimeter off the ground. But the more the population got the impression, fanned by sensationalist media, that the left thought that violence was "tolerable," ever higher taxes were needed to build more free housing and, not coincidentally give government functionaries free limos, huge pensions, and other lifetime privileges, and the far right was practically writing thank-you notes to their counterparts on the left for giving them a new lease on life.
It was all so predictable, and many DID predict it. But just like the multitudes that predicted a Trump presidency as being a disaster, the warnings and the accuracy of the predictions still didn't prevent the disaster from happening--at least in the USA. France, who is just coming off a disastrous five year "socialist" presidency, seems to be maintaining a collective cooler head. Hollande and Mélenchon would, you might think, be driving the French voters into Le Pen's waiting arms. I don't think it's gonna happen this time. There are no bigger critics of French politics than the French, themselves, but even though all my friends down there tell me their number one choice this year is "none of the above," not one of them says Le Pen is number two.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)How is the media there covering the issues that give the far right traction? Sensationalism that drives even more to them? Balanced coverage?
DFW
(54,302 posts)In Belgium, for a while, the press was forbidden by the government to report that violent crimes had been committed by Moroccans. Cynical Belgians started to say that such and such a robbery and/beating was done again by "the Swedes." Since it was forbidden to say Moroccan, they said "Swedes," and everyone (including people from Sweden) knew what was really meant. Even the Moroccans were tired of this because it only fueled blanket resentment against them as a group where 98% of them are perfectly peaceful, law-abiding citizens.
Most coverage is balanced here, even if there are a few rags in every country. In Germany and Austria, Holocaust denial is a rare on-the-books restriction on free speech. Nazi propaganda is forbidden in Germany, and rightist groups have to watch their step to avoid being banned. Fox never got off the ground with a German-language version. They probably knew they'd either have to change their business model or spend half their time in court defending themselves.
Ezior
(505 posts)That was an interesting read.
There are some similarities to Germany, which is frightening. Our alt right party describes this country the way you describe Belgium and France. Apparently, there are no go areas where the police will not help you (or they will only arrive with dozens of officers to protect themselves). Personally, I don't really believe that because I've walked through one of the supposed "no go areas" (Northern Dortmund) and it was... very normal. Well, maybe the bad Romanian guys and other migrants from eastern Europe are in their homes and only come out when police is on the street, who knows... I still doubt it.
Anyway, there's at least some truth to it, as always. The recent crime statistics aren't very promising with regards to refugees. Violent crimes are on the rise. Refugees are often victims of violent refugees. The Minister who is in charge of crimes and the police tells us not to worry, because the overwhelming majority of refugees are peaceful, especially those from Syria, while there are only few who are really violent and cause a lot of trouble, mostly from Northern Africa (so we have our own "Moroccans" like in Belgium).
I wonder if our laws and executive forces are ready to handle this. The troublemakers should be either out of the country or in prison, not abusing and hurting peaceful refugees or Germans / tourists / long-time residents. Maybe the alt right party is right that we need to handle this in a different way. First, to make life better for everyone else, and second, to prevent a "Belgium or France" scenario where the mainstream left parties are to blame for huge violent crime problems, leading to election wins of the alt right who then go on to destroy everything I love about this country.
I think this was a problem even before the refugees came here. You seriously hurt someone, then a year passes, then you must go to court and say "I'm sorry" and the judge tells you not to do it again. Maybe you pay a small amount of money, maybe you are forced to do some social work, in extreme cases you might go to prison, but you will be out of prison quite soon (unless you really killed someone). You do it again, you tell the judge that you're sorry again, repeat. I can see how this is okay for first-time offenders who maybe lost control for a short time span and regret it. But we're really quite weak when it comes to violent crime and repeat offenders.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)It sounds like all the seeds are there to grow a violent far-right movement in all these places.
DFW
(54,302 posts)After all, we have a far greater identifiable ethnic "menace" supposedly among us, and yet no one like Trump is running a European Country, only in Turkey, which can kiss any potential membership in the EU goodbye with its current leadership.
DFW
(54,302 posts)There is a difference in Germany between the Grünen/B'90 and Die Linken. Sarah Wagenknecht will not be a Ministerpresidentin any time soon. As long as some of the people who celebrated the murders at the Wall during the DDR are part of that party, it will never be mainstream.
The German "Justiz" IS a problem, and that extends to an attitude toward Eastern Europeans that was there decades before the Syrians (etc.) showed up. About ten years ago, I helped catch the head of a band of Croatian thieves that had been plaguing Germany from Flensburg to Passau. We caught them in Hannover, and I helped ID their boss. Our security locked him in a room, and when we asked him for his identification, he said "nix verstehn." He had a German passport on him saying he was "Herr Becker" born in Essen. A primitive photo of him had been inserted where the original photo had been. The real Herr Becker had been in Croatia, and got his passport stolen, where it quickly landed in the hands of organized crime. When the Kripo showed up, I gave them the names of Kommissars in both München and Berlin that were looking for this guy, and they took him away. Three days later, he was brought before a judge in Hannover, who said, "es ist nur ein Passdelikt (just a minor passport violation)," and released the guy as if he had been jaywalking. We were furious, but could do nothing about it. Try entering and traveling around with a faked passport in the USA, and you can count on a three year vacation at best if you're caught.
France is not much different. I know a guy who attacked in his shop by a Bulgarian he slightly knew. The Bulgarian gained his confidence to the point where my friend invited him into the back to share coffee during slow periods. One fine day, when in the back, the Bulgarian pulled out a hammer and started bashing my friend over the head with it, trying to get at his cash register. With blood streaming from his head, my friend (who was 70 at the time) managed to get the hammer out of the Bulgarian's hand and started hitting back. The gendarmes arrived, and arrested my friend for assault.
Another guy I know in France was raided by French customs at his shop. He buys and sells old documents and coins. He caught the head of the customs brigade trying to steal an American $20 gold coin, worth maybe $1000 at the time. When he made a stink, the customs guy said he merely planned to "inspect" it. When they tried to fine him for some imagined excuse, he brought charges for attempted theft in return. The customs thief came back to his shop to try to intimidate him into withdrawing the charges. My friend said he had a film of the incident on his security camera tapes. The customs guy said they didn't prove anything. My friend said he had sound along with it. The customs guy took off, and the next thing we had heard, although he had not been charged with anything, the customs guy was removed from his financial terror brigade and reassigned to the airport, where he now inspects cheese from Switzerland (or some such hazardous material). Lax justice plus unchecked corruption (I could write volumes on what I know about goings on in Belgium) means people look upon government as their enemy. If Trump allows corruption to become as pervasive as it now looks he will, the same will happen to us back home.
JTFrog
(14,274 posts)Just look at the idiots at JPR who trashed our candidate and then embraced Drumpf. Nothing populist, liberal or progressive about them. Just a bunch of useful idiots.
Cha
(296,867 posts)DFW
(54,302 posts)But I do know a few people I used to consider rational that got the "I-Hate-Hillary" bug so bad, it became an obsession. They still consider themselves to be progressives, but they fiercely shout, to this day, that if Bernie can't be president, then Trump is the better alternative. With all the crap Trump is pulling, has pulled, and will pull, they continue to insist that he is better for us than Hillary would have been.
They met reality, knew reality, married reality, and then divorced from reality in a separation so bitter, they can never be convinced to give it another try.
JTFrog
(14,274 posts)DFW
(54,302 posts)Or else, you are totally outside it, and have no hope of figuring out what makes them tick.
bucolic_frolic
(43,062 posts)for me to see how a 39 year old investment banker is going to know a lot about politics
More financial austerity only drives more discontent and feeds right wing extremes
Ezior
(505 posts)I do agree that his plans for austerity and generally neoliberalism (in his case, longer work hours among other things) are not necessarily good in this current environment. I hope he's not a neoliberal extremist and keeps the reforms palatable... The sad thing is, because Germany has gone neoliberal 15 years ago, France is now forced to do the same to keep up.
Macron has a positive side, too, because he's very pro-EU. Maybe he forces Germany to roll back some of our neoliberalism so we can meet halfway. I hope our politicians finally recognize the danger that lies in "cut wages, reduce social security, longer work hours WE MUST BE COMPETITIVE!" when large parts of the population are not willing to take any more of it.
retrowire
(10,345 posts)"The Fake Left"
Sincerely,
The actual left.
JTFrog
(14,274 posts)Both the right and the left have them. Hence "Far Left".
If you didn't push Russian propaganda or prop up a racist fascist candidate, then no one is talking about you.
retrowire
(10,345 posts)I won't afford the title feminist to people who want to oppress men and I won't afford the title BLM to people who want to attack others physically.
They're fake.
kcr
(15,315 posts)retrowire
(10,345 posts)Response to kcr (Reply #29)
JTFrog This message was self-deleted by its author.
betsuni
(25,380 posts)retrowire
(10,345 posts)boston bean
(36,219 posts)I never have.
In that you have excluded women who call themselves feminists by not recognizing them as such. As you believe they oppress men.
What makes you think they have oppressed men.
retrowire
(10,345 posts)WOWWWW
JUST FUCKING WOWWWW
I just made a god damn example of how BAD FEMINISTS MAKE FEMINISM LOOK BAD BY TRYING TO OPPRESS MEN MAKES THEM FAKE FEMINISTS.
NOW DO YOU GET THE POINT? HUH?
Feminism is NOT ABOUT OPPRESSING MEN BUT BAD FEMINISTS MAKE IT LOOK LIKE THAT.
There, I spelled it out for you.plainly.
I CLEARLY SAID FEMINISM IS NOT ABOUT OPPRESSING MEN. WHAT THE FUCK.
BAD LEFTISTS MAKE THE LEFT LOOK BAD. BAD FEMINISTS MAKE FEMINISTS LOOK LIKE MAN HATERS.
GOD DAMN.
boston bean
(36,219 posts)retrowire
(10,345 posts)But I'm told all the time by opponents of feminism that they have met feminists that want men dead and want men to take lower pay and all sorts of shit.
And thanks to bad feminists, the fight is harder for true equality.
Are you going to own up and apologize for misinterpreting me or no?
boston bean
(36,219 posts)So opponents of feminism you have met have provided this evidence of bad feminists who oppress men. LOL😂
retrowire
(10,345 posts)Response to retrowire (Reply #47)
JTFrog This message was self-deleted by its author.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)Already done- Already on the interwebs...
Too late...
retrowire
(10,345 posts)Whatever.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)http://www.politico.eu/article/melenchon-asks-supporters-if-they-will-back-macron/
Ezior
(505 posts)See the polls listed in Wikipedia: ("Voting intention by first-round vote"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_French_presidential_election,_2017
~17% of Melenchon voters plan to vote for Le Pen
~45% plan to vote Macron
~38% stay home / don't know yet
The mainstream Republican's voters are worse:
~29% plan to vote Le Pen
~45% Macron
~26% undecided
So... far-left voters still make better decisions than center-right voters. That is ... not suprising.
Also, look at Hamon's number. These guys are great. They voted for a far-left-wing socialist in the first round because they like left-wing policies. About one minute after polling stations closed, Hamon asked everyone to vote for neoliberal Macron in second round because Le Pen is an enemy of the republic, while Macron is just a political opponent. And it works: Only ~5% of Hamon voters plan to vote for Le Pen.
boston bean
(36,219 posts)republicans I could give two hoots about. They will vote how they vote... it's the ones who are so pure politically they will allow a dismantling of everything the left desires to get more.. and NEVER get it because power begets power and the left will always be powerless if this shit keeps up.
mopinko
(70,022 posts)does the guy speak russian?
Ezior
(505 posts)https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/18/jean-luc-melenchon-germany-putin-french-presidential-race
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/12/russian-influence-looms-over-french-election
(He supports what Putin is doing in Syria He thinks Putin will eliminate ISIS)
http://www.liberation.fr/planete/2016/02/22/melenchon-prouve-son-amour-pour-vladimir-poutine_1435136
mopinko
(70,022 posts)Response to mopinko (Reply #30)
boston bean This message was self-deleted by its author.
mopinko
(70,022 posts)i just asked her to follow the money on this dude.