HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » Thoughts On Why 45 & Supp...

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 01:51 PM

Thoughts On Why 45 & Supporters Believe THEY Are American and We Are Not.

I'm describing and clarifying here, not endorsing; I'm raising questions, not being definitive.

Trump and supporters' belief in their "real" Americanism comes from their view of the Other in American history (and even before):

1. Winning against the Other, without caring how -- or even caring -- is completely American.

Undocumented whites and migrants fought by hook or crook for control of this "new world" land base, and passed on their very identity in a) survival, and b) their holding onto control of this land by any means necessary.

(Sidebar: More than one old dude in the South has told me about the knock-down-drag-out fight as a certain type of combat that people set up and bet on in frontier towns. Men would fight, other men would bet the outcome, everyone else, children included, would cheer it on.
An American form of recreation.)

Conservatives believe
Guerilla warfare was American.
Genocide was American.
Slavery was American.
Witch-hunting/burning was American.

Chest beating warrior values ensured that winning, dominance and survival are American. Recently, they see counter insurgency operations against Occupy, Black Lives Matter or the NoDAPL protests as completely American.

Into the 21st Century they expect people to accept the (win-at-all-costs-cheating) outcome of the stolen 2000 presidential election as American. "You lost, get over it," "The past is past," are their consolations to opposition.

2. What conservatives have always hated about liberals is that liberals repudiate -- in the name of something that's somehow larger, or even alien, yep, alien -- cruelties that conservatives consider truly American.

Conservatives donít necessarily embrace those cruelties, but they donít mind them, either, because they think they are natural, part of how we got to be American. Liberals who reject our past are not American. They traffic with the Other.

3. What Conservatives figure is that, if Americans killed off the native population, then so be it. They figure Americans are as Americans do -- their violence, wars are natural, darwinian, whatever -- and since we today benefit from past Americans doing it, it must be okay. Their attitude forms the unspoken (or unspeakable, to us) basis of their land control entitlement and any civilized "order" that follows.

4. Their definition of American is ineradicable. Their logic is immovable, baked into this country's conservative generations to the point where their exclusionary assumptions don't even have words; instead, they operate from just "feelings" which don't translate well in public discourse. We know from our exposure to Trump's speeches, and from his network "spokespersons."

5. Conservatives' more articulate spokespersons, in rare moments of honesty, say itís funny that the main thing we liberals want is for them to see themselves as we see them, when thatís exactly the very thing they claim none of us can do, either. Now we're called snowflake. Now our protests harden them. Alt is their world; fake is ours.

I'm forced to concede, even in a general sense, that we are never going to get this world view change from anyone. It doesnít matter who they are, they get to have that one thing, their own point of view. Conservatives won't legislate or negotiate anything that compromises that. No compromise.

Generally, as Hollywood and dark money PAC fronts well know, the only non-coercive method of changing conservative hearts and minds is with story. But conservatives know how hard it is to change the historical story of what defines Americans.

6. Conservatives say living with warrior exceptionalism is the price we ALL pay for being here. They support a culture of "warrior" honor as American (one daily example is the opening military ritual in "American" stadiums across the U.S.).

If you or I disagree -- or send messages that make them feel disrespected, dishonored, or lower in status (any refusal to stand, pledge, etc., ) -- we aid and abet the Other (or other countries), and are subject to suspicion, surveillance or counter insurgence tactics by their hallowed security forces.


When I consider that 489 of the wealthiest counties in the U.S. voted for Clinton; the remaining 2,623 counties, mostly small towns, suburbs, and rural areas, voted for Trump...Slightly fewer than fifty-five per cent of all voting-age adults bothered to vote, and 45 and his supporters now run the downsizing of government and rough up 'Others' of the planet.

When I consider that Trump sits at the end of a U.S. history of fighters motivated by their own exceptionalism; that their attitude, hundreds of years in the making, is ineradicable, and conservatives consider it the price Americans pay to live here...

I realize -- as I familiarize myself with the Bannons, Kochs, Trumps or other conservative flavors of the day -- that any clear set of principles conservatives abide by are grounded (pun or no pun intended) in resource entitlement and warrior exceptionalism.


Our best future chance to get anywhere with them, politically, is to stop believing in mutual compromise with them. For eight years all manner of conservative types have shown us they won't compromise. Current "cracks" in their loyalties are no guarantee of future bipartisanship.

Between us and them, there are only concessions to be extracted from them.

We didn't ask for this. Until someone else here or in the party's leadership can lay out a non-binary and/or bipartisan political future for this country, this is what we face.

We also face a contest of ideas:

Was America ever really based on unity through diversity?

Is America still an idea?

Are Americans what they do?

And is America what it does?


If America has spent centuries acting in contradiction to its founding ideas -- because the "win" ends have justified the "any means necessary" -- then perhaps we've become a well-armed military central command, CentCom, of the planet, and little else.

I say all this to DU in order to work out any in-party differences, help us see ourselves as others see us, and maybe improve our communication stance in some hard years ahead.

I love you guys. Be gentle with me.

20 replies, 5300 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 20 replies Author Time Post
Reply Thoughts On Why 45 & Supporters Believe THEY Are American and We Are Not. (Original post)
ancianita Apr 2017 OP
Dawson Leery Apr 2017 #1
Dawson Leery Apr 2017 #3
elleng Apr 2017 #2
WePurrsevere Apr 2017 #7
elleng Apr 2017 #11
WePurrsevere Apr 2017 #12
elleng Apr 2017 #13
WePurrsevere Apr 2017 #14
elleng Apr 2017 #16
roamer65 Apr 2017 #4
Blue_true Apr 2017 #5
demosincebirth Apr 2017 #6
Boomerproud Apr 2017 #8
drmeow Apr 2017 #9
dchill Apr 2017 #10
duncang Apr 2017 #15
ancianita Apr 2017 #17
Dawson Leery May 2017 #19
coco22 Apr 2017 #18
kairos12 May 2017 #20

Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 02:06 PM

1. Everything you said.

....wrestling is a rural sport. Mostly right wing. Most of the big college coaches are right wing big mouths/born again kooks.
The entire premise of the "sport", if you call it that, is to beat the other down at all costs.
No teamwork involved.

The "sport" is also big in the less than developed nations, Russia, Iran, Turkey, Arabia, etc....

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dawson Leery (Reply #1)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 02:10 PM

3. Yes, they are conservatives, American Conservatives.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 02:07 PM

2. 'THEY' are not 'conservative,' this is the definition:

'holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change or innovation, typically in relation to politics or religion.'

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to elleng (Reply #2)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 03:24 PM

7. I agree. IMO there's a lot more 'con' than 'conservative' at play now. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WePurrsevere (Reply #7)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 03:41 PM

11. No doubt,

but along with the 'con' there's the sad economic picture. Just now reading (and posting) this, similar in the U.S. too:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/29/business/france-election-globalization-lepen-macron-lace.html?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to elleng (Reply #11)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 04:35 PM

12. I can see similarities to the US in this...

and the article touches upon the 'con' used by Trump being the same as by Le Pen. They promise to bring jobs back that simply don't exist at the same level anymore, not just because jobs moved overseas but because technology has removed the need for so many people to create certain products and at prices that make things more affordable although it's at the cost of jobs and most products quality.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WePurrsevere (Reply #12)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 04:52 PM

13. Yes. There are universal problems,

and we all could use some 'higher authorities,' that is, smart/wise people, to find 'answers.'

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to elleng (Reply #13)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 05:08 PM

14. I think there are wise people with answers but...

too many aren't ready to hear them or act on them.

Hopefully they will be soon I still have a tiny spark of hope that something will wake up the masses so our global and environmental needs can be met in time.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WePurrsevere (Reply #14)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 07:09 PM

16. I SO hope you're right.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 02:23 PM

4. They can be "dealt with".

If they think they are somehow exceptional, they are not.

If they think their little pop guns will save them...they are sadly mistaken.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 02:28 PM

5. They view their ancestors as "special", got ahead by playing by the "rules".

They ignore than many of their ancestors were "illegals", brought over and entered illegally and got legalized through document forgery and by the need for people of a growing nation.

They ignore or become hostile when anyone point out that the "rules" excluded non Whites from upward mobility or made such mobility exceedingly difficult for non Whites. Many think that because their family did not own slaves, that their family didn't benefit from slavery or post slavery segregation, denial of jobs to non Whites, denial of loans that allowed the building of wealth to non Whites.

In their view, they got what they have totally on their own and the government gave them nothing, the same government that paid teachers, police, firefighters, people that monitored diseases and controlled outbreaks of diseases, ect.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 02:50 PM

6. Old proverb - " last resort of a scoundrel is patriotism."

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 03:27 PM

8. K&R

I cannot add anything to your thoughts. Excellent post. I know it wasn't designed to comfort me as a liberal or make me feel better. In fact, it was depressingly true.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 03:28 PM

9. for me it all comes down to this

They think they are superior and that the ends justify the means - always and to whatever extreme needed. They don't give a f**k about the means as long as they are in power over anyone and everyone they want to be in power over.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 03:40 PM

10. A basic rule - If you can take it, it's yours...

and no one has the right to take it back.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 06:33 PM

15. You might add fear

And I'm not kidding. Politicians have been using fear for a long time to gain power. There can also be several forms of fear they use. Not just the fear of change, but also the unknown and future uncertainty.

The fear of "them" can play a pivotal role because "they" can be blamed for things out of the voters control. This has been used through out history. The we have to do something about "them" because they will cause havoc to our well being. It can also the be "they" are taking over, moving in and I will no longer have my support group. The I have to be with and around people like me. I don't trust people outside my group. Think of dipshit's promises to keep them safe from those terrible immigrants.

The fear of change. Think about the stress people can feel when they change jobs. That is a normal part of life. But add maybe moving to the mix and that uncertainty increases. Think about the miners and other people whose area had jobs move out. Telling people you will save their jobs in their town. This ties in to the future is now secure and if those illegal immigrants are removed I will still have that job in that city. Again a dipshit theme.

A fear of now or a longing to go back to "simpler" times. People tend to gloss over what the past really was. And that it will never really go back no matter what you do.




Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to duncang (Reply #15)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 08:17 PM

17. Yes! Fear of modernity is how I'd label the unwillingness to give up violence against the Other.

It's only American to return to the days of winning.

Modernity means changing all those war values, and the changes of modernity are a real threat to many groups trapped in their past "glory days," from ISIS to the KKK to the NRA to the KGB to the NPRK v. USA.

Thanks for your thoughtful post. This is important for DU to remember.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ancianita (Reply #17)

Mon May 1, 2017, 08:21 PM

19. Always good to hear someone else agree

that all the violent reactionaries are the same.

KKK/ISIS/NRA/USSR/NK/Evangelicals, etc....are desire a return to the "simpler times".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sun Apr 30, 2017, 08:31 PM

18. We are all Americans when..

they want someone to fight their wars then,they reap all of the benefits afterwards. Thanks Muhammad Ali. still fits for today.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ancianita (Original post)

Mon May 1, 2017, 08:24 PM

20. I would add conservatives always hate that progressives don't believe in American

exceptionalism. It dispels their purity of motive myth.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread