General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe Oatmeal brilliantly addresses the question "How do we talk to Trump followers?"
I've been having this conversation in a few threads, and I completely agree with what The Oatmeal is saying.
I realize this is another in a series of threads covering the same controversy but I think this is important and difficult and necessary if we are going to do anything but run around and around hurling rocks at one another. I believe it, I have seen it myriad times in my therapy practice, and I appreciate how very hard it is to do. But...
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe
tazkcmo
(7,300 posts)They're idiots of the nth degree.
nolabear
(41,959 posts)tazkcmo
(7,300 posts)If by that you mean convince willfully ignorant and just plain stupid people that their Dear Leader is also an idiot then we will never go forward. If you mean offering a presidential candidate that attracts sane Independents and energizes disaffected liberals to re-engage, then Shit Gibbon followers are not needed anyway.
In spite of 25 years of smearing her, collusion with the Russian government and Dir Comey's Hatch violation, Sec Clinton garnered over 3 million votes more than Shit Gibbon. We don't need his followers.
nolabear
(41,959 posts)I think we are in dangerous territory that can have terrible personal consequences.
Understand, I am not saying that I would not stand firm in my convictions and do exactly as you said, vote people in whose thoughts and goals mesh with my own. And I wouldn't blue sky anyone's bigotry or destructive goals. But we live in the same world every day, and we need and interact with them in ways uncountable. My goal for going forward would be to recognize they have reasons that seem sane to them, talk to them not with the goal of changing their minds or giving in on important rights but finding how to live better lives. We all really do believe what we do and all fear subjugation. I'd also like not to have to think about conflict all the time. It's bad for the body.
tazkcmo
(7,300 posts)There isn't one person that shares their values on this planet I "need" for anything. I can live w/o all things they have to offer which is, in my opinion, nothing.
I simply do not feel they are part of the solution but are The Problem. Their "better lives" do not include minorities, liberated women, clean water, clean air, clean planet, health care, fair taxes or peace. They Really Believe that this is a White, Male and Christian country and as for conflict, they get off on it, especially if tghe victim is not White, Male or Christian.
If those are the kind of folks you feel like you can share your life with then by all means, do it. I will not. If I know a person that feels the way Shit Gibbon followers feel then I do not associate with them in any way. I don't need them in any way at all.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Angry that Trump is doing anything other than stomp on Dems. They were furious he was even pretending to "work with them" and they want their stupid wall more than anything.
nolabear
(41,959 posts)Your food may be grown and served by them. Your car built by them. Your house fire put out by them. Your children or grandchildren might go to school and become best friends with their kids. Your IV put in by them. Your products sold by them. You interact. I think it's bad for everyone to rail. Oppose? Sure. Work for everything you possibly can? Sure. Live in a constant state of wariness in ways I don't have to? I just don't think it's smart.
I believe that trying not to condone but to find out a lot about such feelings and opinions and to find ground for some kinds of trust is vital.
tazkcmo
(7,300 posts)I have to interact with them, like them, help them, identify with them, empathize, sympathize or even think about these fools. As for loved ones, we can't choose our family but you can choose who you associate.
I know I seem cold about this. The reason is I am. These "people" give two craps about us "libtards", have called for the death of us, want to tyake away our health care as long as they get theis and on and on and on. I am not a religious person so am not beholden to any god that requires me to be nice and give them the compassion that they actively, delightfully and maliciously deny so many others.
nolabear
(41,959 posts)tazkcmo
(7,300 posts)You really are the better example. I'm o.k. with that, too.
Foamfollower
(1,097 posts)Relatives who were pro-Trump, I have completely cut out of my life.
Acquaintances who were pro-Trump are also completely cut out of my life.
My friends were never pro-Trump, though few who falsely called me friend were.
I can never be friends with a Trump supporter.
They are my enemies and always will be.
Amaryllis
(9,524 posts)Perseus
(4,341 posts)History, old and new, has proven over and over that fanatical people will not learn, or accept facts which are contrary to their beliefs until they become victims of the actions from those they have supported.
I will give you a current example, one that is ongoing at this moment in South America, the country Venezuela.
What we are experiencing today in the USA is the same that occurred in Venezuela, the actors are not the same, of course, but the methodology is, the outcome I hope will not be the same.
Venezuela:
1. Elected a demagogue (Hugo Chavez), who was allied to Cuba's Fidel Castro.
2. Castro understood that Chavez was a narcissistic person so he took advantage of that trait, and it was his best card because the difference between Chavez and Trump is that Chavez was intelligent, he thirst for knowledge, read a lot and although he was born in high class, it took him some time to acquire social protocol into his political career, but he did. Trump, although raised with money, having money but has never been able to have class, to be with the educated elite from NY and they despise him because they understand he is a vulgar human being. A monkey is a monkey even if you dress it in silk.
3. Castro manipulated Chavez and was able to dictate most of what Chavez did in Venezuela while enriching himself and the elites of the Cuban Revolution by convincing Chavez to give him oil, money, infiltrate Cubans in the military, hospitals, etc.
4. Anyway, Venezuela is a mess because of this methodology of helping some narcissus become president, and then pulling the strings in their favour.
4. The one fact that I cannot resolve in my mind is why the military helped, continue to help destroy that country. Some in the private sector I can understand because as greedy as they are, Chavez played his cards right and allowed them to enrich themselves even more.
5. The country has been in a dire state for many years, hospitals have no medicine, people die because they cannot treat them, there is no food in the supermarkets, people stand in line for hours to buy what little food they are allowed, and sometimes when they get to the door, everything is gone...hunger....
6. Violence, deaths every day, innocent people dying because of robbers who are never satisfied so they have to kill. Most of these criminals were armed by the government, they have been listening to incendiary rhetoric and pushed to violence with no accountability.
7. Finally, the Chavez followers have awaken and are helping riot against the regime, but it took 16 years to turn the tables.
USA:
1. Elected a demagogue (Trump), who is allied to Putin and Russia.
2. Putin understands very well the narcissistic nature, and the ignorance of Trump, which he has already taken advantage of and will continue to milk that cow as far as he can.
3. James Comey, and this is the one that worries me a lot because of the faith the American people have in the FBI, but Comey's actions so far have been very questionable, his reason for disclosing the bogus Clinton investigation while not disclosing the real one of Trump and gang has to be of major worry to everyone. In my opinion, I think he did alter the election and committed an act of treason.
4. The military is obeying the chimp-in-chief so far, that has to be of worry as well. The one thing that makes me feel a little at peace is that I cannot think of the USA military allowing Russians to infiltrate them, but it has happened before in other countries.
5. The cabinet that Trump has put in place (Tillerson, Bannon, etc.) is married to Russia, and while the FBI claims to be investigating, nothing comes out from the very long investigation, and in the mean time Ryan, McConell, etc. are doing everything in their power to dismantle a government that has mostly worked for the people, at least when democrats are in power.
Anyway, what is to come I don't know, but the current history in Venezuela should be looked at because the same methods that were used there are being used here, and the only time when the deplorable will wake up is when it hits them hard, that is how the deplorable in Venezuela woke up, they are now on the streets rioting, hunger has hit them hard, now they understand. But even so, they rightfully blame it on Maduro (the current president) while failing to understand that the cause of all the chaos started when Chavez took office. Destroying a country is faster than building/rebuilding one, but when it is methodically done, it happens quick.
The ACA Repeal is the first step into creating despair in the population, look for all the distractions, Trump being one of them, he is a decoy for the evil plan that the GOP has in mind, the "look a squirrel" is Trump, you focus too much on Trump and things are going to happen without you noticing it...
They don't deserve our conversation. They're not listening anyway.
Warpy
(111,235 posts)and you don't need to change their stinkin' thinkin' in one fell swoop. All you have to do is interject just a little bit of doubt. They'll do the rest.
It will take time and trying to affect the process is counterproductive.
Give them the gift of doubt. Then walk away.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,988 posts)Foamfollower
(1,097 posts)Life is too short to waste it on trash.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,988 posts)It seems that you did NOT read the comic with comprehension.
Your statement embodies the kind of attitude that amplifies the backfire effect; that polarizes polarized people even more.
Amaryllis
(9,524 posts)are, however, brainwashed/hypnotized by right wing media.
None of the ones I know voted for Trump because they liked him, but because they truly thought he was the lesser of two evils. Right wing media painted Hillary to be much worse, and people who consume it bought that narrative. Also remember that Russia was very active in disseminating fake news, and they were ripe to believe it.
There are the mean, hateful ones also, but you can't lump them all into one category. OP is just saying we aren't gonna get anywhere by being hateful toward them, or "by hurling rocks at one another."
LoveMyCali
(2,015 posts)than yes, they are stupid.
I personally am sick of people telling me I should compromise my beliefs to sooth the feelings of these POS who didn't give a single fuck about anyone but themselves.
Foamfollower
(1,097 posts)That makes them racist and sexist themselves.
Fuck 'em.
AnnieBW
(10,422 posts)And short sentences.
WhiteTara
(29,699 posts)(we have 2!) accepts my weekly letters. I'm sure that there will be that backfire effect, but I have to write to keep my sanity; so I guess this isn't for them anyway.
Dear Editor,
Im not a psychiatrist and I dont play one on TV, so I am understandably confused by my fellow citizens who are Trumps supporters. I thought we all loved our country and that the millions of current service members and veterans attest to that fact.
But every day, there is more and more news of the treachery and deceit and perhaps treason that occurred so Donald Trump would be president and Russia could keep Crimea without sanctions; yet almost 4 out of 10 voting age citizens still want to give him a chance.
Give him a chance to do what? Sell off all our national parks and monuments to whoever gives him the best kickback? Exacerbate climate change so his SOS can make money off Russian oil investments? Start new and perhaps nuclear wars to increase his stockholder profits? Throw 30 million people off their health insurance to gain giant tax cuts for himself? Or end all social programs and build a $62 Billion (and counting) wall that will only off kill animal species and not keep people from illegally crossing our border?
Having passed no legislation, Trump is governing by fait through a flurry of Executive Orders all while the FBI and two Grand Juries are conducting investigations (complete with evidence of Russian Mafia money laundering through his organizations) into his collusion with a hostile foreign government.
I do not understand. When will enough be enough?
Leith
(7,808 posts)Because this one is terrific!
Well said! I agree 100%.
We'll see what my little town thinks. I have a feeling that there will be more than a few gasps.
Mr. Ected
(9,670 posts)You just let them be. No good is served by trying to convince them of their grand-scale stupidity.
When the time is right, either they'll realize that Trump is all fart and no shit, or he's a convict, or he quits.
These people have either been brainwashed by FOX and Clear Channel, or they are truly deplorable, or both.
Give up on them. We don't need them to win. We need to focus on ourselves and develop a message that brings out the vote and resonates with the middle class.
dalton99a
(81,432 posts)- Mark Twain
PA Democrat
(13,225 posts)I have often gotten so frustrated with my FOX News viewing parents because they are always so angry about some trumped up controversy. I remember bringing my dad home from the hospital after a life-threatening health crisis and he immediately turned on FOX and started getting angry about some issue that seemed ridiculous to me. I told him he would probably live longer if he found something else to watch.
Too much of what passes for "news" (especially on the right) seems to be devoted to the fostering a sense of outrage and an "us verses them" mentality.
fountainofyouth
(409 posts)Roger Ailes understood that to captivate a loyal audience, you connect with them emotionally instead of intellectually.
He even wrote a book in 1988 about it: https://www.amazon.com/You-Are-Message-Getting-Being/dp/0385265425
Amaryllis
(9,524 posts)How Fox News & the Right-Wing Media Machine Totally Changed My Dad's Character & Made Him Crazy
THis woman made a documentary about how her father completely changed after he started consuming right wing media.
Those of us who were around during the advent of cable have seen it happen. When i was growing up, we had the 3 networks and all saw the same stuff. We didn't live in parallel universes that never intersected.
Response to Amaryllis (Reply #17)
susanna This message was self-deleted by its author.
susanna
(5,231 posts)byronius
(7,392 posts)Boomer
(4,168 posts)and most of my venting is done on forums with like-minded souls.
Outside of the internet, I let folks be and when I hear they've voted for Trump I simply get as far away from them as possible. You can't get blood from a stone. There is a preponderance of evidence that Trump is a demented narcissist that preys on small businesses and the weak. If they can ignore that, there's nothing I can say. If they only listen to Fox News, then they won't listen to me anyway.
There's is no way to "outreach" to people who are ignorant, actively self-deluded or just plain mean. If they have the capacity to come out of their Trump Fog, it will have to be on their own, when they've reached some personal epiphany that is beyond my ability to predict.
Unite and build strength with people who are already on the right side of truth and god. Let the Deplorables find their own way, because they won't thank you for trying to help them do it.
Amaryllis
(9,524 posts)and being stupid/racist/sexist etc. My brother and several friends are in the hypnotized by FAUX category. Trump voters who honestly believe he was the lesser of two evils because Hillary was a CRIMINAL. It is important to distinguish between the ones in the brainwashed/hypnotized category and the ones who truly are racist, etc. - who, for example, think it's just fine to sexually assault a woman and brag about it, or as you say, the ones who are just plain mean.
elmac
(4,642 posts)don't waste your time. No cure for stupid
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(48,988 posts)WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)Martin Eden
(12,862 posts)I, in turn, will share it with others.
demmiblue
(36,838 posts)mahina
(17,638 posts)Mahalo!
krispos42
(49,445 posts)Thomas Frank had a similar idea in "Don't Think of an Elephant".
K&r
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,988 posts)JoeOtterbein
(7,700 posts)mcar
(42,298 posts)Thanks!