The United States of America is in a death spiral.

[MoonRiver]

I hope I am wrong. Please prove me wrong.

[Voltaire2]

1. No that seems to be accurate

[Bernardo de La Paz]

38. Inaccurate. . . nt

[tenorly]

58. While I wouldn't go that far, we are indeed hanging by a thread: global faith in the dollar.

The very thing Rethugs have been trying to destroy ever since Dubya and his Armageddon freaks.

[KPN]

2. You are only wrong if we unite, rise up and fight with no holds barred.

We can no longer take the high road. The GOP has proven without question that for them, this is war. Going high works with fair players. These people are not fair players. They don't care about consequences or their actions for the little people. The adage "nice guys come in last" holds true in this environment.

[GliderGuider]

3. So civil war is the only thing that will save the nation?

I think I see a problem with that.

[bdamomma]

24. Damn it will make those

repigs run for sure, they are cowards if they don't even hold town halls for their constituents.

The American people are not going to stand for this. Now they are fucking with our lives.

I don't even want to hear about this on the news tonite.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

39. No. It would not save the nation. But there are much better ways. . . nt

[hamsterjill]

61. Please elaborate on the better ways.

n/t

[Bernardo de La Paz]

67. One is to support Obama with his Leadership training programs. Another is to encourage women

Another is to encourage women to run for office.

Study the enemy. Get to know how they really think (it's often emotional, but gotta know how their neurons fire). Go beyond the nitwits raging on DU about fuck the Rs and fuck this and fuck that. Read Sun Tzu for inspiration on oblique and tangential thinking to defeat the enemy. Read Musashi to sharpen the warrior's edge.

[hamsterjill]

74. I'm sorry, but your answer seems quite naive to me.

I do understand that you're trying to be reasonable. But your answer could take decades, and we don't have decades.

I live in a red state and I KNOW how the enemy thinks. The enemy thinks only about himself and how he can be enriched. The enemy doesn't give a damn about anyone other than those like him and, in fact, blames anyone who might be needy in ANY category for being lesser and having those needs. That's the justification they have for being able to sleep at night. If ole so-and-so doesn't have a job, it's because he hasn't looked, isn't willing to work, etc., etc. If ole so-and-so doesn't have health insurance, he should have been taking better care of himself, etc.

We need relief within a reasonable period of time. We cannot sit on the sidelines and "encourage".

I will not condone violence, I will condone peaceful protest, including but not limited to, any town hall meeting setting. I call my reps practically on a daily basis. But as I said, I'm in a red state, and those phone calls fall on deaf ears.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

75. Won't take decades. Obama's not waiting and women are signing up in massive numbers.

A journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step and finishes sooner than any pessimist imagines.

Pessimism is a depressive emotion that is defeatist and unhelpful and unnecessary.

When feeling pessimistic and defeatist, just say "Hello old friend" and open a window in the mind and get on with something else while it wafts out on the breeze. Mounting an internal dialogue to fight it makes it stronger.

Move forward or move sideways (relaxing, resting, building strength, studying, goofing off, etc.) Both are necessary.

[KPN]

91. Who said anything about civil war? We just gotta be mean bastards back at em.

We can win if we want. We are the majority -- and by more than the 3 million votes.

[GliderGuider]

92. That's where "unite, rise up and fight with no holds barred" ends up.

Your opponents tend to go to the gun when threatened. If that happens, the only way to "rise up" is by going to the gun yourselves.

You are at a deeply perilous point in your nation's history. What is said and done now, matters. Words have consequences, so I suggest choosing them carefully. words that arouse one side also inflame the other.

On the other hand, I don't see much possibility of the US avoiding Civil War II somewhere down the road. The sides are far too polarized and far too entrenched. The deplorables want you dead, it's as simple as that.

[KPN]

96. Yes they do. But it's not the deplorables -- they are just blind lackeys for

the oligarchs. It's the oligarchs who want to thin the herd for their own sustainability. They will want to thin out any of the deplorables who wake up and refuse to fight their wars or be their servants in the future as well. This isn't a situation that just happened over night by happenstance.

But re: "no holds barred", perhaps it does end up being violent -- but nobody here is inciting civil war or claiming violence as the only effective strategy, not that I've seen and certainly not myself. When I say "no holds barred", what I mean is we have to go at them with a vengeance. It's totally absurd to think that we can reason and reach accord with these people through reasonable compromise. They don't care about the little people and are happy with the notion of thinning the herd. They are out to get us. We need to pull together and fight back with every tool we have. When we regain control (which I believe we will -- if we unite and rise up in force against them in 2018 and 2020) we need to be willing to prosecute and penalize people for the Russia thing. We need to be tough minded about and willing to shove single payer down their throats (if we can get it down our own -- for some reason I wonder whether the Democratic Party can do that). We need to go after voter suppression with a vengeance -- and prosecute when there are violations. No more compromises. No more collegiality. No more incrementalism. None of that has worked nor will work with these people ... unless or until they say uncle. Will that day ever come?

[nolabear]

9. I'm deeply disturbed by the advocacy of possible violence around here lately.

You want to talk death spiral? Start "going low" and they, who DO in fact have control of the military right now will use it. They'll convince their people that the left is dangerous and must be subjugated and that train of thought will be Exhibit A.

We have to work like mad to uphold the democratic process and get reasonable people back into office. And those people have to work like mad to start a discussion with the moderate right and those who are far right out of exactly the fear of what you're demonstrating.

If we aren't better than that, we're already gone.

[TeamPooka]

13. Democrats need to fight Republicans the way Republicans fight Democrtas.

Otherwise we're bringing a knife to a gun fight.

[nolabear]

20. Sure. Strength, numbers, working to gain support, resistance.

Not "by any means necessary" in the midst of "Fuck 'em" and "when they go low, we go lower."

[True Dough]

30. I support your common sense approach, nolabear

Being reactionary and resorting to violence is not the answer. 2018 is coming. Granted, a lot of damage will be done by then (and already has been) but that's the Electoral College system of democracy in action, unfortunately. We can make our voices heard in opposition and filibuster now and again, but punching somebody in the face or burning cities to the ground won't turn things in our favor.

[nolabear]

66. Amen. And mind you I'm FURIOUS.

On a day like today I'm so mad. Watching them almost literally dance on the graves of those who need them...

They've got to go. But democracy has to stay.

[TeamPooka]

79. I mean remaining united and sticking to a strong message.

[nolabear]

80. Indeed. We need to stop infighting and unite. We need optimism and work.

Right now I'm seething over the bullshit they're spouting about how great this is but it's not going to make me lose hope by any means.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

40. No. Read Sun Tzu. Don't fight their war. End run them & fight smarter, not harder. . . . nt

[hamsterjill]

46. Thank you! Thank you!! Thank you!!!

And they need to have been fighting Republicans the way Republicans fight Democrats for a long time! What we are seeing today is the result of years of Democrats trying to get along when the Republicans have no intention of getting along.

Until we see these bastards for what they really are - killers, greed mongers, etc. - we are never going to win.

[BigOleDummy]

48. 100% Correct!

[Moostache]

69. This sounds a lot like the philosophy of Polish Jews circa 1938...

Do not make the mistake of bringing a knife to this gun fight in the hopes that the GOP won't shoot you anyway...they and their ilk and asinine supporters do not care about fairness, decorum, rights (human or otherwise). They care about one thing and one thing alone - "winning" by any means necessary and to any petty definition imaginable.

These are people who are HAPPY to give billions in tax breaks to people who would gladly shove them in front of a moving train if there was $0.10 of tax relief in it for them. Just so long as "those damn liberals" and "shiftless blacks" and "illegal immigrants" are hurt as badly or a bit earlier, then all is well for these sub-human freaks.

My single greatest gripe with the Democratic Party has ALWAYS been tactics and the degree to which I perceive our party as willing to go to the mattresses for a belief versus what I see all the time from the GOP. While they maintain strong allegiance and party line votes, we can't seem to focus for anything better than a march or a public protest. Did not work for preventing Iraq - and we were in the streets by the MILLIONS....did not stop Trump from assuming the office of POTUS - and we were in the streets again in huge numbers across the nation (and the world for that matter).

Do not be fooled again...the GOP does not care if millions die or if millions more fall into despondency and poverty and die faster than otherwise would be the case. They care about paying off their donors with tax breaks and deregulation and they care about imposing their will, their ideals, their philosophy on the weakest and poorest among us, period.

[BigOleDummy]

47. AGREED!

Getting tired of being depicted as traitors and wimps by the thugs on the right. Fight fire with fire, the time for REAL resistance is drawing near. Ask the White Rose Resistance of Germany how THEIR non-violent pacifism worked out. Oh wait, you can't only one of them survived.

Make no mistake people, these wingnuts mean to wipe us out one way or another.

[hamsterjill]

60. I'm with you.

We must fight harder than we've ever fought before. We have no choice.

[Initech]

4. It all started with Reagan and his "government is the enemy" bullshit.

The GOP bought it, and they've been destroying our country ever since. Argh I hate this fucking party.

[Javaman]

19. more over it started with nixon and hmo's and him being pardoned. nt

[Initech]

44. Reagan ran on that platform when he was running for governor of California.

[Mr.Bill]

32. I always found it interesting

that Reagan thought was what was wrong with America, yet he wanted to be in charge of it.

[kimbutgar]

5. It certainly feels like it

We are rapidly heading into third world nation states. Blue states are surviving but the red states are destroying our country with their election this crazy president. We have lost international respect and are a laughingstock. And we have become a cruel nation, full of ignorant bigoted people.

[TrishaJ]

12. And some blue States turned RED in November

and that's why we have this crazy president.

[kimbutgar]

23. Though, Wisconsin, Florida, Pennsylvania, and Michigan never have felt blue to me.

They all have red governors( except PA who has a rethug legislature who have been manipulating voting rights in a red direction for years.

[delisen]

83. actually Dems lost 1000 seats Republicans from 2010 on

Scott Walker of Wisconsin is running for his third term.

The attrition was preventable. Can/t just focus on presidential race and not build up the states.

[bdamomma]

25. this is really sad

but we need to rally and fight back hard not with violence but with brains, seems like there are many without them now.


We are much better than this. Aren't we????

[Bernardo de La Paz]

43. Yes, it feels like it, and prob get worse before better. But it WILL get BETTER. Dems will triumph.

[hamsterjill]

49. Ultimately, I think you are right.

But what about those of us in the age brackets (too young for medicare, too old thus high risk insurance) who will die off before that happens? It's not anyone's fault that human beings age.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

52. Then die fighting smarter if you've nothing to lose & everything to gain for future of the young. nt

[hamsterjill]

56. I fight every day.

And will continue to fight using all legal means at my disposal.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

63. Excellent. That is inspirational. . . nt

[cwydro]

6. I can't believe that monster is president.

I really can't.

[6000eliot]

7. Afraid we'll have to wait until 2018 to be proven wrong.

At this point, I'm with you.

[Va Lefty]

8. I've believed this for some time

George Carlin said as much in 2007 quote begins at 6:41

[bdamomma]

27. If George Carlin was still living

he would say TOLD YOU SO. He was correct, I remember when he said they are coming for your Social Security, and since we are not in their club they will be coming for everything. Sadly he was right.

[Va Lefty]

65. Yes he definitely saw the "writing on the wall"

[Get Off Of My Cloud]

10. Ah, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction

1964!

Get a grip

[robertpaulsen]

11. That's too limited. Civilization itself is in a death spiral.

Our society is predicated on an economic arrangement that requires infinite growth on a finite planet. We are cooking ourselves to death - there is a direct correlation between economic growth and rising greenhouse gas emissions. Drumpf's solution? Geoengineering; in other words, fighting pollution with more pollution. Unless you change the way money works, you change nothing.

[BannonsLiver]

14. "Humanity is a virus in tennis shoes." - Bill Hicks

It was true when he said it in the 90's and it's true now.

[robertpaulsen]

88. President Hicks - that's who we need!

Or President Carlin: "The planet is fine - the people are fucked."

[Bernardo de La Paz]

53. No. . . nt

[lovemydogs]

15. Not Death Spiral but, in Critical Condition

I've thought alot about this.
I was in grade school in the 60s. I remember an America much different from this one.
And not just our government but, our society as a whole.
People thought and felt different towards the poor, the needy and the sick. There was an attitude of helping others.
Being there for your neighbor. A spirit of generosity and caring.
All aspects of life was different from now. And we had politicians in both parties that worked for the American people and the country.

When did it change.

I definitely agree with those who say the Reagan years.
The groundwork was set in the 1970s. But, Reagan began implementing the greatest desires of business and the rich.
But, for all my adult long dislike of Reagan and his policies, I highly doubt Reagan would have agreed with the disgusting way his party has evolved.

I believe the combination of Reaganism with the dirty, greedy and self serving nastiness of Newt Gingrich set alot off.

But, the one poison pill the Reagan years unleashed and brought to America that has caused it's current condition: Greed.
The full throated embrace of greed by business, the rich and the general population. The thinking of 'it's all about me', the selfishness and self obsessions. The 'I got mine, to hell with you'.

[Initech]

17. It's like the GOP is intentionally trying to provoke Civil War.

Look all around you. If you think 2018 is going to be a cake walk, think again. The GOP has a monopoly on the media, although if you listen to their mouth pieces, you'd think "the liberal media" is part of the problem. Even our own talk shows are turning against us. Bill Maher, while he is still needed as a voice on our side, has been quite the liberal basher lately, and has taken to having nothing but conservative guests on, like the insufferable S.E. Cupp to reiterate this opinion. And if you try to speak any opinion that might be considered liberal, you get called a "libtard", or a "Marxist", or something else horrible, and run out of town. Conservatives think they have a monopoly on political opinions.

And the republicans are playing the "free speech" card like it's a bodily function. If you go to their rallies with the intent to protest, they'll cry "free speech" or beat the living shit out of you. We got a taste of what a modern Civil War would be like at UC Berkeley when the Proud Boys beat the shit out of the Antifa protestors, and the latest protest - the cops in riot gear separated the two groups like concerned parents at a middle school dance.

Face it - the GOP is looking for any excuse for them to use their precious killing machines, and to lock us up if we try to fight back against them. Any. A Civil War here would be absolutely disastrous and the consequences of which would be devastating for decades, centuries even. We're still experiencing the fallout from the last Civil War.

And we saw it again this week when conservative pundits hit rock bottom and attacked Jimmy Kimmel for talking about his newborn son in his monologue, who almost died from heart failure and the need for a better health care system. Conservatives are doing everything they can to try and take it away from us. And with Trump in power and the imbalance in SCOTUS, they might actually get their wish, and that thought is scary.

I really hope that is not what is happening. But I see it every day. I just... really want to hope this isn't happening. It can't happen here. Can it?

[mvd]

21. It could happen. It really could

I am already calling for all out disobedience in the House and Senate. If we do it, we do it as a block so they can't focus as much. If this bill even gets a sniff of passing in the Senate, I want all out chaos.

[Initech]

22. I agree, they can't keep getting away with this.

[Ligyron]

81. I'm down.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

54. Yes. Critical conditon. . . . nt

[brooklynite]

16. I prefer to just ignore venting without substance...

[Vinca]

18. It seems that way. I nearly puked when I walked into the house this morning and heard

Dear Leader talking about our freedom coming from God. We've been overrun with whackjobs and religious zealots.

[bdamomma]

28. crap, he doesn't believe in God???

he only believes in himself. And have you seen pictures of him lately, he's getting more orange, you really can tell he is nothing but a fraud. I noticed here today he is talking about going to the Vatican??? I hope Francis tells him and tells him he is doing the devils bidding.

[Kirkwood]

26. No. The world is in a death spiral.

Ignoring climate change has guaranteed that we are at the point of no return.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

34. NO. Pessimism like that is ignorant of human ingenuity and persistance. . . . nt

[Kirkwood]

73. It's not pessimism. It's a fact.

And human ingenuity and persistence will only help if our leaders are willing to support it. Sadly, that's not the case.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

76. It's defeatist pessimism. The world will change ("no return") but it will still be a wonderful world

[Kirkwood]

78. Ugh! nt

[get the red out]

29. You are correct

Unless something changes, this country has been destroyed by the careful manipulation and brainwashing of a substantial chunk of the population to have a deep loathing of anyone they consider different from themselves. Even if they destroy themselves.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

36. NO. It will change. Democrats, libs & progs Resiste, Persist, and will Triumph. . . . nt

[elmac]

31. The fascist terrorists just voted to murder 50,000 Americans a year

making ameriKa less populated again.

[hamsterjill]

72. Exactly. And I'm one of those 50,000.

Pardon me if I defend myself.

I can't believe some of the attitudes that I'm seeing here.

[elmac]

86. I could be to

I'm not defending the fascists, just pointing out how evil they are. We have seen that voting has no control over government so that only leaves us to a very ugly civil war or revolution.

[elmac]

87. Reagan killed the American dream

tRump turned it into a nightmare. Don't think voting will be enough to flush that turd.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

33. NO. NO. No. Defeatism tends toward self-fulfilment. The MAJORITY of USA are resisters.

Remember: Democrats win MAJORITIES of Presidential popular votes and MAJORITIES of House / Senate / Legislature votes (nationally added together).

The only reason the Republicans are 23 seats in the House above even is because of GERRYMANDERING at the state level.

[Freddie]

42. That's the problem

We win majorities and still can't get anywhere thanks to structural features in our government- the EC, gerrymandering and the nature of the Senate valuing land over people. In order to actually win we have to win by huge numbers which I don't see happening. I keep thinking "what outrage will it take?" This one? They keep piling on and nothing changes.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

50. We WILL win by huge majorities at some point & we must be UNITED to move fast then.

So fast and so united that the Republicons and tRump suckers heads will spin.

The Republicons have majorities in the House, Senate, and WH and yet they can barely get legislation past the House that is likely to die in the Senate. They lost the budget battle big time this spring.

Republicons are not united, except emotionally.

Democrats, liberals, and progressives are smarter and ultimately less emotional and therefore sharper (when united).

[hibbing]

35. I'm terrified

I love this country, I feel horrible for younger people, but I'm old and will need some of these services soon that will be their next targets.

Peace

[Bernardo de La Paz]

62. Talk to us. We are with you. Change what you can, accept what you can't.

Acceptance does not mean stopping resistance and working for change.

It is simply the realization that in life stuff happens. I could be riding a bicycle and a ten ton truck of manure slams the brakes in front of me and dumps it all on me, to my great detriment. Shit happens.

Feel better by fighting smarter so that you can help the future for young people and help the middle aged people who will outlive you.

Further, you still have lots of life left in you.

[Freddie]

37. I cried all day Nov. 9

I feel the tears coming back now.
It was St. Ronnie who started this country on the path of heartlessness. I remember as a kid how optimistic we were. How everyone wanted to help each other. Now ***even though most voters did not vote for their party*** thanks to the EC, gerrymandering and the nature of the Senate which gives land more power than people, here we are. I don't see a way out except secession.

[Thirties Child]

82. I cried the night St. Ronnie was elected.

In the light of what this country has come to, I'm beginning to think those were psychic tears as well as horrified tears.

[AngryAmish]

41. Every 50 years or so the US has a major upheaval

The next decade will be bloody. If the US survives it will be in much different form. I would split her up but if she stays together a lot of changes are needed.

[vlyons]

45. I'm not going low

and I'm neither resorting to nor advocating violence in any form. I am better than that. I plan on keeping my mind pure and virtuous. But rest assured that I shall speak the truth as I see it. What I see is a Republican leadership that is most certainly a bunch of greedy criminals and traitors, who should all be convicted on RICO and treason charges.

My congressman Jeb Hensarling TX-05 is one of the worst of the worst, who is owned and operated by Wall St and predatory payday lenders. I'll be working my tail off to defeat him come 2018 and elect democrat Dan Wood.

http://votedanwood.com

[Bernardo de La Paz]

55. +1 . . . nt

[MrScorpio]

51. I see it too.

[ecstatic]

59. I agree. An idiocracy is unsustainable. nt

[Bernardo de La Paz]

68. That's why it will FALL and we will triumph and the USA is NOT in a death spiral. . . nt

[democratisphere]

64. United States has been in a slow death spiral for decades. redumbliCONs

are hastening the process.

[bucolic_frolic]

70. The spiral can be broken

if progressives en masse stop feeding the coffers of the oppressors

How many opt for running their households in the black, cultivating to the extent
possible progressive businesses and suppliers, trimming their spending to support
value, durabliity, quality, sustainability, progressive causes?

We all talk a good game, but there's always room for improvement. We feed the
GOP because they are the businesses. We buy the latest gizmo, we see the latest
movie, we shop super retailers. To some extent we have to. But I refuse to give
them fat profits for anything. I'll wait, haggle, do without.

[singed.dude]

71. I agree

It started with the JFK assassination.

Involvement in BS wars: Vietnam and Iraq - leading to empire overstretch.

Two crooks elected to President: Nixon and Trump.

Loss of manufacturing base.

Growing numbers of ignorant voters.

Middle class not sharing in the overall prosperity.

Have I missed anything?

[taught_me_patience]

77. What is your evidence?

There is plenty of evidence that the US is in much better shape demographically compared to other OECD countries.

Here's a graph showing we have much better demographics:


Here's a chart showing benefits to elderly. Again America is in a good position relative to other OECD countries:

[workinclasszero]

84. Reagan lit the fuse

Trump is the end game.

[Binkie The Clown]

85. Step back and look at the big picture.

The whole of planet Earth is in a death spiral.

[Ron Green]

89. First, turn off the TV.

Go outside and meet your neighbors, the ones you don't yet know. Find out what their hopes and fears are. Don't talk with them about anything on the TV.

This is truly what's needed. We must build communities.

[MoonRiver]

90. You seem to be assuming I don't do those things.

I don't watch much t.v., and my neighbors all all Republicans. They DO NOT CARE.

[Ron Green]

95. I wasn't really addressing you personally so much as

adding to the suggestions that many are making here. The fact that ALL your neighbors are Republicans is quite telling: it's the reason we have this child in the White House.

Nevertheless, I believe the "death spiral" can be avoided only by replacing our cynical, distracted, commodified culture (unfortunately, much of DU exemplifies this attitude) with connected communities grounded in principles of charity and tolerance. Someone in your isolated situation, and I suspect there are many, has a great opportunity to literally save the world.

[GliderGuider]

93. The world is racing to the bottom of the abyss. America is simply leading the pack. nt

[ileus]

94. Since 1963