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(36,097 posts)I don't think it just took 'the rnc, wikileaks, the fbi, and trump russia' to bring Clinton down.
It was years and years and YEARS of rightwing smears
How the DNC didn't guess this might happen, I don't get
William769
(55,142 posts)mhw
(678 posts)The selection of DT & RW power control was organized long before the primaries began.
The massive direction & money it took to pull off such a coup wasn't just something put together in a matter of months.
It was years in the making.
It wasn't Hillary Clinton that lost the electoral college.
It was an international criminal organization.
That's how we got here.
None of this was actually Hillary's fault at all.
It's the fact that the RW's lies about her were taken at face value by so many & even now, knowing what the "republican party" did to get where they are today, its astonishing that there are still those who rely on the intentional slander & lies to proclaim why "she lost"..
Fact is, she had an impeccable career.
Her outreach for human rights followed her from a young age.
Her knowledge of bringing about lasting policies necessary to bring about a future for the world, where the playing field held promise for all races & creeds, was what this world needed to move from war & despair to negotiating an existance that respected humanity in all its colors.
The baggage you say was what undid Hillary Clinton's Presidential chances really never existed at all.
To claim it did says the lie is still believed.
To still believe the slander & lies of the RW is why we have Trump & why we now watch the dismantling of our American civil & constitutional rights, & watch as human rights become an invisible thought from the past.
This is why she was silenced throughout the campaign.
Their first priority in selecting Trump was to keep Hillary Clinton from being heard.
Had she been allowed to proceed in an unbiased & fair campaign, her policies & words for the future of humanity would have drowned out the Republican Party.
They knew this. And this is why she was censored & slandered.
And people still lay the lies they told at the feet of Hillary Clinton, the 2016 loss to Trump & his massive & globally organized, international criminal billionare club for white thuggery is somehow her fault.
Hillary did nothing wrong. The Trump crime family just said she did.
Thanks
&
Love 2 William769
Excellent post, mhw.
Trial_By_Fire
(624 posts)In 2008, Obama received 365 electoral votes and 69,498,516 popular votes.
In 2016, Clinton received 65,844,954 total votes - about 3.5 million less votes than Obama in 2008.
What happen to those 3.5 million people who did not vote for Clinton, and more importantly, why?
Mr.Bill
(24,228 posts)at the voter suppression laws that have been passed during those eight years.
Trial_By_Fire
(624 posts)Interstate crosscheck, et.al. but Democratic leadership doesn't really make that a big deal...along with all the other elect fraud tactics...
Amaryllis
(9,524 posts)in the name of preventing"voter fraud" which is a myth created by Rs to justify voter suppression.
mhw
(678 posts)As the varibles between 2008 & 2016 are completely different.
Its an apples & oranges comparison.
Moot.
Its raw numbers between the years and they I believe are indeed relevant.
progree
(10,889 posts)2008 was a profoundly unusual year -- the worst financial meltdown since the Great Depression was well underway. Hundreds of thousands of jobs being lost per month. Obviously people were looking for change -- in this case the change was away from 8 years of ruinous Republican rule. Naturally the Democratic candidate -- even a black Democratic candidate -- drew a lot of votes in these desperate-for-change times.
2016 - a much different time, after 8 years of slow recovery under a Democratic administration to back to almost where it was in 2007 by some (but not all) measures, a lot of people thought it was time for change again.
mhw
(678 posts)Different time
Different conditiins in the world
Different candidate.
Different methods of mass messaging.
2016's International nefarious players buying in like a poker game.
Etc...
For those numbers be a factor for consideration, every person who voted for Obama, would also have had to be voting in 2016.
There would have been no 3rd parties drawing away from Clinton for instance as well as the hundred thousands more removed from voter regs by RW Crosscheck. Etc. Etc. Etc.
This discussion, is about using Obama's numbers to somehow make the point as to HRC being "not as popular as him" in vote tallies.
The truth is that such a comparison is pointless because the varibles between the two campaigns were completly different.
The only thing to draw from the difference in the numbers is...just that.
Any other conclusion would take the consideration of all possible varibles that may have caused the difference.
How many Obama voters were unable to vote in 2016? For instance.
Did some leave the country?
Incarcerated? Pass away? Became ill or were otherwise unable to vote.
One would have to know why that many people did not vote for her & to assume the only reason must be because the exact same people who voted for Obama suddenly chose Trump is a pointless assumption.
We are talking about two completely different campaigns, years apart.
JI7
(89,239 posts)Trial_By_Fire
(624 posts)Because 2012 was a incumbent election for Obama, making the
situation more similar.
JI7
(89,239 posts)BarbD
(1,192 posts)Yes, she was highly qualified, but the decades of smears did cause a lot of people to have doubts about her. I know more than one person who votes democratic that voted for Trump or sat out the election because of her past and/or fears that all we would have with a Clinton Presidency is investigation after investigation.
I couldn't agree more.
DK504
(3,847 posts)We could bring in a vestal virgin up for the presidency and the RWNJ's would make her look like a gutter level hooker.
The media REFUSES to do their jobs and then act all shocked and shaken when they have crapped the country in the toilet. Now that is there a traitor(s) in the WH now they are jumping up and down with their hair on fire. We didn't hold their feet to the fire enough and now they are pretending to do their jobs. They still can't seem to talk about more than one thing at a time.
mhw
(678 posts)justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)Most print media were banging the NeverTrump drum pretty hard.
It was the cable news shows that did us a disservice.
Never forget.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)Hillary Clinton would be president.
Actually, it would have been Clinton, Gore, Obama, Clinton if we lived in a democracy.
Trial_By_Fire
(624 posts)I believe you are saying 'we should elect the President democratically just like all other US elected officials".
We are a Democratic Republic - meaning we democratically elect our representatives.
Which brings up a question - Why do we have the Electoral College picking the president when we have voters elect all other elected positions by majority vote (i.e. the democratic majority vote)?
Locutusofborg
(524 posts)is because that's what the Constitution specifies.
And over 229 years, we have not seen fit to amend the Constitution to abolish the Electoral College. By the way, it is really, really difficult to amend the Constitution.
The last time the Constitution was amended (the 27th Amendment) that amendment was proposed by James Madison in 1789 and it didn't get ratified until 1992.
Also, only the president and vice president, of all elected officials are required to be natural born citizens. The Birthers tried to use that against Barack Obama.
Also the minimum age requirement for president (35) is higher than for any other federal elected office.
In 24 states there are laws that require Electors to vote for the winner of the popular vote in that state.
JoeStuckInOH
(544 posts)"...
And over 229 years, we have not seen fit to amend the Constitution to abolish the Electoral College. By the way, it is really, really difficult to amend the Constitution.
The last time the Constitution was amended (the 27th Amendment) that amendment was proposed by James Madison in 1789..."
Amendments 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, and 26 were all proposed and passed in the 1900's ... with the most recent proposal being in 1971.
Mr.Bill
(24,228 posts)that if the two term limit was not in place Bill Clinton would be beginning his seventh term.
former9thward
(31,930 posts)More likely Reagan's body would have been beginning is tenth term.
JI7
(89,239 posts)Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)probably still have control of Congress.
karynnj
(59,495 posts)Had Gore won in 2000, Gore/Lieberman ( unless Gore changed VPs - remember that there were many things that Gore and Lieberman agreed on in 2000. Events in 2000 and afterward moved Lieberman to the right (and neocon) and Gore to the left. ) Nothing would have happened in the same way. I don't think Gore would have ignored the Rudman/Hart terrorism report and might have tightened obvious security weaknesses. Airplanes having unsecured cockpit doors was something already corrected on El Al - it was a known risk, but it was thought that the cost was too high given the risk. Let's assume that this prevented 911. Ironically, Gore/Lieberman might then lose 2004, with a Republican, who ran on small government claiming all these environmental and safety regulations slowed business growth!
In fact, sitting in 2017, we might be speaking of how Gore/Lieberman made a serious effort on climate change, but their legacy also included a weakened economy at the end of their term. Their legacy might actually have been more positive, if they lost in 2004.
Many factors that caused 2008 were already in play before 2000 - I would hope that Gore/Lieberman would have responded better and faster to the mortgage crisis, but there would have been a big dip. Remember no one would have the actual 2008 to compare it to.
At any rate, the next time a Democrat ran - not primarying a Democratic President would be 2008 at the earliest. If Gore/Lieberman were ending their second term, you would have to consider that Lieberman might be seen as the establishment choice. Clinton would have been a 6 year Senator, who might be helped by the Clinton reputation on the economy .. or hurt by some blame for the bills that left derivatives unregulated and removed the wall between banks and investments. It is not a given she would have won the primary. With the economy a mess, it is possible that someone like Gephardt, who was pro-union and (I think) not for trade deals, could fit the times.
At that point, it is impossible to think what the votings issues would be, though it is pretty likely that a terrible economy could be the issue. It is not obvious that Gore/Lieberman would have picked Obama to give a keynote speech - Kerry met Obama after a Chicago finance person with a home in Nantucket suggested he look see him when he was in Chicago. So, he would have been a 2 year Senator, without that much name recognition. Not to mention, under the scenario that there have been 4 consecutive Democratic terms and the economy is bad, I assume the very young Obama would wait a better year. Edwards, with no scandal, would likely not be in the running because without 2004 he would have had to be campaigning in Iowa etc in 2007 as he learned his wife had stage 4 cancer. Dodd and Richardson got absolutely no traction in 2008 and there is no reason to think any would have been better. Then there are likely many others - that none of us would think of.
Edwards, with no scandal, would likely not be in the running because without 2004 he would have had to be campaigning in Iowa etc in 2007 as he learned his wife had stage 4 cancer. Dodd and Richardson got absolutely no traction in 2008 and there is no reason to think any would have been better. Then there are likely many others - that none of us would think of.
If the Republicans did win in 2004, that might make Lieberman less likely to be a serious contender, which opens up the race to many Senators to challenge Clinton. Again, it might have been someone seen as someone who wanted the banks held accountable.
sheshe2
(83,637 posts)Thanks, Bill.
It seems some here still do not like the truth.
sheshe2
(83,637 posts)JHB
(37,153 posts)The Republican strategy against the Clintons was to throw ball after ball of horseshit, bullshit, elephant shit, etc. at them, hoping a fleck would stick. When just about all of it sloughed off, it piled up around them, giving off an ever-larger fogbank of steam. Then they'd point to that and say "where there's smoke..."
A spoonful of arglbargle helps the horseshit go down, in the most der-red-ful way.
JoeOtterbein
(7,699 posts)dchill
(38,433 posts)oasis
(49,322 posts)Gothmog
(144,892 posts)dflprincess
(28,071 posts)in addition to Hillary's 3 million vote lead, another 7 million voted for third party candidates.
Apparently though no one has told him this because you'll notice when talks about "fraudulent votes" he always uses 3 million as the figure for that. Just a coincidence I'm sure that he thinks the "fraud" count equals Hillary's lead and he ignores the other 7 million votes against him.
former9thward
(31,930 posts)Neither got 50% of the vote.
dflprincess
(28,071 posts)Of the popular vote.
JI7
(89,239 posts)SunSeeker
(51,508 posts)onecaliberal
(32,776 posts)Baconator
(1,459 posts)No? Oh, that's not the game we are playing.
Never mind...
Voltaire2
(12,954 posts)Not how our system works.