Yes, a Grand Jury can "trigger" a Presidential impeachment process.

[pnwmom]

Last edited Mon May 22, 2017, 01:53 AM - Edit history (2)

And we know that multiple Grand Juries have been involved in investigations of DT. Director Comey said in the Senate hearing that he's been working with two prosecutors, including one in the Eastern District of Virginia.

And we know that WH lawyers were reported this week to be "researching" the impeachment process, because of the "distant possibility" that impeachment might begin.

Maybe Mensch and Taylor aren't so crazy. Maybe the beginning of an impeachment process HAS already been triggered -- by a Grand Jury report, that has now been sent to the House.

How do we know it hasn't?

In the passage below, I added the caps:

(ON EDIT: even if an impeachment process has started, it could take a year or two to get through, based on our experience with Watergate, unless DT resigns first. So nobody hold your breath.}

https://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/98-806.pdf

Congressional research service

House of representatives: sole impeachment power

The House of Representatives: “Sole Impeachment Power” A. Initiation. Impeachment proceedings may be commenced in the House of Representatives by a Member declaring a charge of impeachment on his or her own initiative,1 by a Member presenting a memorial listing charges under oath,2 or by a Member depositing a resolution in the hopper, which is then referred to the appropriate committee.3 THE IMPEACHMENT PROCESS MAY BE TRIGGERED BY NON-MEMBERS, such as when the Judicial Conference of the United States suggests that the House may wish to consider impeachment of a federal judge,4 where an Independent Counsel advises the House of any substantial and credible information which he or she believes might constitute grounds for impeachment,5 by message from the President,6 BY A CHARGE FROM A State or territorial legislature or GRAND JURY 7 or, finally, by petition.


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/09/us/politics/james-comey-fired-fbi.html?_r=0

In a sign of the F.B.I.’s intense interest in Mr. Trump’s advisers, a grand jury in Virginia issued subpoenas in recent weeks for records related to the former White House national security adviser, Michael T. Flynn, according to an American official familiar with the case.

[Me.]

1. +1

So I guess there are some 'experts' who don't know everything

[yodermon]

2. Was just about to post this, thanks.

And certainly it comports with Mensch's reporting that donnie ALREADY has been indicted (sealed).

Link to tweet

[pnwmom]

4. Thank YOU!

[triron]

3. Thorough and enlightening. Thank you.

[gordianot]

5. Thankyou have not seen this to date.

I wonder how well this process is understood I no longer make that claim.

[bresue]

6. Thank you for explaining!

I have followed the arguments back and forth in regards to Louise's and Claude's forecast and was very confused after. This clarifies a lot for me.

[onenote]

7. We know an impeachment process hasn't been "triggered" because there is a formal public process

The impeachment "process" begins when a member of Congress introduces a formal resolution, not before.

The resolution that starts the process can take several different forms: a resolution calling for the appointment of a select committee to recommend whether impeachment proceedings should be initiated; a resolution directing the Judiciary Committee to conduct an investigation into whether a particular individual should be impeached; a simple resolution declaring that a particular person should be impeached; or a more detailed resolution setting forth proposed articles of impeachment.

If you go to congress.gov and search impeach, you'll see that a few hundred such resolutions have been introduced over the years. You'll also see that the "impeachment process" started by these resolutions has more often than not ended with the referral of the resolution to a committee (typically Judiciary) where it dies without any hearings, votes or other action.

The process by which the Judicial Conference can make and transmit to Congress a determination that impeachment may be warranted (as well as Grand Jury determinations etc etc) does not automatically trigger the impeachment process. That process remains in the sole discretion or Congress and can only be commenced by a member of Congress. As the relevant provision of the US code relating to impeachment determinations by the Judicial Conference states:

28 USC 355(b) If Impeachment Warranted.
(1) In general.-If the Judicial Conference concurs in the determination of the judicial council, or makes its own determination, that consideration of impeachment may be warranted, it shall so certify and transmit the determination and the record of proceedings to the House of Representatives for whatever action the House of Representatives considers to be necessary. Upon receipt of the determination and record of proceedings in the House of Representatives, the Clerk of the House of Representatives shall make available to the public the determination and any reasons for the determination.

For whatever action the House deems necessary. The House can decide no action is necessary and do nothing, preventing the impeachment process from ever commencing.

[dalton99a]

9. +1

[pnwmom]

11. Did you read the passage from the Congressional Research Service?

One of the ways that an impeachment process can be "triggered" is by a Grand Jury. From there it would go to the House for further action. Just because that hasn't happened in the past (assuming that's the case) doesn't mean it couldn't happen that way this time.


https://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/98-806.pdf

CONGRESSIONAL RESEARCH SERVICE

House of representatives: sole impeachment power

The House of Representatives: “Sole Impeachment Power” A. INITIATION Impeachment proceedings may be commenced in the House of Representatives by a Member declaring a charge of impeachment on his or her own initiative,1 by a Member presenting a memorial listing charges under oath,2 or by a Member depositing a resolution in the hopper, which is then referred to the appropriate committee.3 THE IMPEACHMENT PROCESS MAY BE TRIGGERED BY NON-MEMBERS, such as when the Judicial Conference of the United States suggests that the House may wish to consider impeachment of a federal judge,4 where an Independent Counsel advises the House of any substantial and credible information which he or she believes might constitute grounds for impeachment,5 by message from the President,6 BY A CHARGE FROM A State or territorial legislature or GRAND JURY 7 or, finally, by petition.

[onenote]

13. You're wrong if you're saying a grand jury indictment automatically triggers Congressional action

It still takes a member of Congress to trigger the impeachment process. So in answer to your question of how do we know that the impeachment process hasn't already been triggered by the presentment of a grand jury report to the House? Because (a) no grand jury report has been made public and no grand jury could or would send a sealed grand jury indictment to a member of the House before it was unsealed and (b) even if and when a member of the House obtains a copy of a grand jury indictment against Trump, he or she would still have to introduce a resolution to commence the impeachment process. Whether he or she does so is a matter entirely left to the member's discretion. Nothing mandates that a grand jury indictment, a conviction, a confession or bad case of heartburn lead to the introduction or consideration of a resolution calling for someone to be impeached or even for an impeachment investigation to be commenced.

Yes, i read the CRS report. But I didn't stop there. I went back to the precedents it relies on: 3 Hinds 2469 and 2487.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/browse/collection.action?collectionCode=GPO&browsePath=Precedents+of+the+U.S.+House+of+Representatives%2F030-Hinds%27+Precedents&searchPath=Precedents+of+the+U.S.+House+of+Representatives%2F030-Hinds%27+Precedents&leafLevelBrowse=false&isCollapsed=false&isOpen=true&ancestors=root&packageid=GPO-HPREC-HINDS-V3&ycord=416

3 Hinds 2469 involved the impeachment of Judge Swayne. A member of Congress, had received a "memorial" from the state of Florida calling for the impeachment of said judge. Did it automatically cause anything to happen? No. The impeachment process required that member to offer a resolution commencing an impeachment investigation for consideration by the full House. That member was under no obligation to raise the matter - he could have chosen to ignore the memorial. But if he wanted the process to start, he had to introduce a r esolution before the House. Publicly.

3 Hinds 2487 reports on the case of a judge whose impeachment was recommended by a Territorial legislature. Did that automatically trigger the impeachment process? No. It was triggered when Congress chose, in its discretion, to use it as a basis for the introduction of a resolution of impeachment. During the debate over the resolution, it was watered down to a resolution calling for an investigation based on objections that "it would hardly be dignified for the Congress to proceed to an impeachment on the authority of a resolution of the legislature of a State or Territory. A committee should first be appointed to inquire into the propriety of impeaching" Apparently, this committee never did anything, Congress adjourned, the judge died and that was that.

You'll note that neither of these examples involved a grand jury. There is such an example as reported in 3 Hinds 2488, a case in which the House had received a letter from the territory of Mississippi concerning the findings of a grand jury. Upon receipt, a member offered a resolution for the appointment of a committee to investigate. One was voted upon and eventually determined that "it is unnecessary to take any further proceeding on the presentment of the grand jury of Baldwin County, in the Mississippi Territory, against Judge Toulmin.’’

To sum up, in the broadest sense, the commencement of the impeachment process can be "triggered" by absolutely anything that causes a member of Congress to stand up and introduce a formal resolution of impeachment or calling for the creation of a committee to investigate whether impeachment should be considered. It could be a grand jury finding. It could be that a member had a bad breakfast and, in a foul mood, decides to introduce an impeachment resolution. But without that first, discretionary formal step, the impeachment process does not and cannot start.

And even when the process is "triggered" by the introduction of the required resolution, it doesn't necessarily mean much. Such resolutions have been introduced literally hundreds of times in our history and the vast majority have been referred to a committee that simply ignored the resolution and let it die without any action whatsoever.

To sum up, your speculation that because there reportedly are grand juries investigating matters relating to Trump (not necessarily Trump himself), it is possible that the actions of one or more of those grand juries has already served as the basis for the House to begin looking into impeachment is simply wrong. These things don't occur informally or in private. There would have to be a grand jury indictment (and notwithstanding what Mensch et al claim, until the allegedly sealed indictments are unsealed its as if there are no indictments for Congress to consider). And it would still require a member of Congress to introduce a resolution. Those things haven't happened.

[womanofthehills]

8. More

Link to tweet

[pnwmom]

12. Interesting. Thanks!

[womanofthehills]

10. Hallelujah!!

Link to tweet

[FBaggins]

14. Anything "can" trigger impeachment... that doesn't mean that it DOES.

... because an impeachable offense is anything that the House of Representatives says that it is.

Similarly... there is nothing that automatically "triggers" the impeachment process until the House says so.

This occurs when (and only when) the House refers the matter to the appropriate committee for a recommendation.

Maybe Mensch and Taylor aren't so crazy.

Nope. They're definitely crazy.

*** -Maybe the beginning of an impeachment process HAS already been triggered -- by a Grand Jury report, that has now been sent to the House. - ***

Which the House is keeping secret, right?

*** - In a sign of the F.B.I.’s intense interest in Mr. Trump’s advisers, a grand jury in Virginia issued subpoenas in recent weeks for records related to the former White House national security adviser, Michael T. Flynn - ***

You do know that subpoenas come before indictments, right? That it's pretty ridiculous to simultaneously believe that subpoenas are being issued to investigate the "little fish" and that the "big fish" has already been indicted?

One of the many parts that I find hilarious is that they think it's a sealed indictment (usually done so that the perp doesn't know about it until he's arrested)... which nevertheless has been formally announced to him by the US Supreme Court.

[L. Coyote]

15. Indeed, .... BY A CHARGE FROM A GRAND JURY .... which has happened per sources.