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H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
Mon May 22, 2017, 12:21 PM May 2017

The Wall Comes Tumbling Down

“I deny everything I say, because everything I say is a lie. And everything I deny is a lie, too.”
– Groucho Marx


Rational people knew that candidate Trump was lying when he told gullible crowds that he would build a wall between the Unites States and Mexico. More, he appealed to these people's ugliest instincts, promising them that Mexico would foot the entire bill for this wall. Trump, of course, must have known that this would never happen. His actual purpose was to stir the pot of hatred and fear that – if it boiled over – might help make him to “win” an election.

Trump's campaign and his presidency have attempted to create other walls within America. He has exploited divides between citizens. He's attacked individuals and institutions. In doing so, he serves as a perfect illustration of the reality that those who hate, become hate, and thus are hated. And this is the only quasi-positive thing that can be said about him.

Past presidents have been notorious liars. Lyndon Johnson lied to his friends, Richard Nixon to his enemies. But Trump is by far the worst ever. Likewise, there have been serious divisions between Americans before. The Civil War is an obvious example. The 1960s – '70s is another. The significant difference is that today, there is a president who purposely has added fuel to the fires of division.

One hundred and twenty-two days into the Trump presidency, the chickens are coming home to roost. The pace of the unraveling of the lies and corruption of the campaign/administration is building momentum. We are living in historic times.

A number of people – mainly young, but also some of my generation – that I communicate with are expressing frustrations that the process is taking too long. Actually, it is moving along at the best pace possible. A key to that is found in a second concern expressed: republicans in DC are unlikely to move to impeach Trump.

Last week, MSNBC's Joy Reid (an absolute treasure in the mainstream media) made a point that deserves far greater attention than it has received. Those republicans facing re-election campaigns next year are already contacting their major donors. And those donors are becoming increasingly upset by the circus of ass-clowns in the administration. They are unlikely to invest in an effort to protect this self-destructive administration.

I've frequently advocated that people read Malcolm Nance's book on the Russian-Trump connections. What we are witnessing today is exactly what he spoke about in his wonderful book, and has said on various news programs in recent months. In a very real sense, this is much like the intelligence community's destabilizing of foreign governments in the past.

Reports that the Assistant Attorney General's naming a Special Counsel do not name Trump's son-n-law, but he is the fellow inside the White House that is of special focus. This is due to his coordination with Eric Prince, and attendance of the secret meeting on the island off the African coast. This was an attempt to create an outside-of-government operation to coordinate with Russian interests – much like the Reagan-Bush administration's Iran-Contra operations.

The intelligence community is also relying upon evaluations of Trump's personality traits. Trump does not, as we all know, deal with “bad news” well. Hence, the early morning tweets, etc, that his administration tries to normalize. And Trump's uncanny compulsion to publicly contradict their efforts within 24 hours. Thus, morale within the White House is sinking lower and lower daily, and the hiring of personal legal representation is increasing at the same pace.

The wall that Donald Trump attempted to build is tumbling down.

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The Wall Comes Tumbling Down (Original Post) H2O Man May 2017 OP
Thanks for such a cogent summary dalton99a May 2017 #1
Thank you. H2O Man May 2017 #3
A big, fat K&R! CaliforniaPeggy May 2017 #2
Thanks, Peggy! H2O Man May 2017 #4
Which movie? CaliforniaPeggy May 2017 #11
"All the President's Men." H2O Man May 2017 #23
Oh, of course! CaliforniaPeggy May 2017 #34
Well done, thank you H20 saidsimplesimon May 2017 #5
Thanks. H2O Man May 2017 #6
I liked when he refused to join any club that would accept him as a member. Ligyron May 2017 #44
I'd like to believe it Caliman73 May 2017 #7
I hear you! H2O Man May 2017 #8
We've also learned of our new vulnerabilities to social media manipulation Pluvious May 2017 #12
Right. H2O Man May 2017 #25
Yes it does burrowowl May 2017 #70
Thanks for sharing your insight. pangaia May 2017 #14
I have to agree H2O Man May 2017 #27
Jared's actual title for his made up position in Trump's (mis)administration tblue37 May 2017 #9
No coincidence. H2O Man May 2017 #29
Do you mind if I share with attribution? mac56 May 2017 #10
Feel free to. H2O Man May 2017 #24
May the wall never get built! Initech May 2017 #13
Right. H2O Man May 2017 #36
He'll have a groundbreaking ceremony akin to George Bluth from Arrested Development. Initech May 2017 #37
President Obama bucolic_frolic May 2017 #15
True, that. H2O Man May 2017 #45
K&R Scurrilous May 2017 #16
Thanks! H2O Man May 2017 #46
his entire campaign was a fraud. nothing more. nothing less. spanone May 2017 #17
Right. H2O Man May 2017 #47
I disagree.... Joe Nation May 2017 #18
Yep, he hasn't a clue FakeNoose May 2017 #38
Interesting. H2O Man May 2017 #48
Republicans! Look how far you have come from "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall." tclambert May 2017 #19
How far they have sunk ..... H2O Man May 2017 #50
Ah yes, the Blackwater Overlord... countryjake May 2017 #20
That's a key point. H2O Man May 2017 #53
K&R nt ProudProgressiveNow May 2017 #21
Thanks! H2O Man May 2017 #54
K & R nt cate94 May 2017 #22
Thanks! H2O Man May 2017 #55
Just finished reading Blue_Roses May 2017 #26
Right! H2O Man May 2017 #28
I actually wondered about that Blue_Roses May 2017 #30
Oh, he is involved. H2O Man May 2017 #31
I saw a recent H2O Man May 2017 #56
lol... Blue_Roses May 2017 #58
He's Always Been A Liar Me. May 2017 #32
That's outstanding! H2O Man May 2017 #39
'They Say' Me. May 2017 #40
Right. H2O Man May 2017 #57
Given The Disputes Here On DU Regarding Taylor & Mensch Me. May 2017 #69
Sing him on out, Pete Seeger and the Weavers! Tanuki May 2017 #33
This, Tanuki! Hekate May 2017 #42
Beautiful! H2O Man May 2017 #59
You're like a DU port in a storm, H20 Man. democrank May 2017 #35
Thanks! H2O Man May 2017 #60
Thanks for this as always. I read it aloud to my husband.... Hekate May 2017 #41
Thanks! H2O Man May 2017 #61
Change, in people and in institutions is slow. So frustrating. BlancheSplanchnik May 2017 #43
So true! H2O Man May 2017 #63
I love the metaphor. BlancheSplanchnik May 2017 #68
I think, he actually believed that as POTUS he could bully Mexico into paying for the wall. DetlefK May 2017 #49
Valid points. H2O Man May 2017 #64
Humpty Trumpy - just for fun moonseller66 May 2017 #51
Very good! H2O Man May 2017 #65
One gigantic deplorable..... pbmus May 2017 #52
Yikes! H2O Man May 2017 #66
Excellent summary. Tatiana May 2017 #62
Interesting points. H2O Man May 2017 #67

H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
3. Thank you.
Mon May 22, 2017, 12:47 PM
May 2017

As odd as it sounds, I look forward to Trump's return to Washington. I know that Trump has made calls seeking "advice," and that each person has told him the same thing: hire legal representation, and shut up. But he is incapable of shutting up.

CaliforniaPeggy

(149,523 posts)
2. A big, fat K&R!
Mon May 22, 2017, 12:36 PM
May 2017

And off to the Greatest Page with your perfect essay, my dear H20 Man.

So very well said.

Thank you!

saidsimplesimon

(7,888 posts)
5. Well done, thank you H20
Mon May 22, 2017, 12:54 PM
May 2017

The most notorious liar is the one who lies to himself, the bad hair baby.

Groucho was one of my father's "don't touch the channel" shows back in the day.

"I worked my way up from nothing to a state of extreme poverty." Groucho Marx

H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
6. Thanks.
Mon May 22, 2017, 01:11 PM
May 2017

An actor attempts to fool others into believing he's someone other than who he is; a fool convinces himself.

Ligyron

(7,616 posts)
44. I liked when he refused to join any club that would accept him as a member.
Tue May 23, 2017, 12:01 PM
May 2017

After all, we have to have standards.

Caliman73

(11,725 posts)
7. I'd like to believe it
Mon May 22, 2017, 01:22 PM
May 2017

I think that eventually, the weight of all of the various parts of this intrigue will be too much. I am just struggling because of the presence of right wing media which keeps a fairly large portion (though a minority) of citizens in the dark about what is going on. My concern is that there are 63 million "Japanese soldiers" sitting in that cave still fighting the war that has been over for 20 years (if you get my analogy). They are misinformed and truly believe that there is an unjustified, coordinated effort to harm this innocent and great leader. Then we have a large chunk of people who don't care one way or the other and are more interested in who will in "The Voice" or the NBA playoffs, or who signed with the Pats, or how the Yankees are doing this season (I don't even know if that show is still on).

I would like to think that we will get it right and Trump and his administration will crash and burn, taking the Republicans down with them, but many of my fellow citizens have not given me much to be hopeful about.

The French are lamenting such "low turn out" in their recent election. 75% of the voting population voted in the election. We had just over 50%. I wish we had such "low turn out" as the French. Hillary Clinton would be president now.

H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
8. I hear you!
Mon May 22, 2017, 02:10 PM
May 2017

It's a sad state of affairs that led to this. In a healthy society, a person of Trump's (lack of) character would never be considered for any position of leadership. Yet, even within our damaged system, there remains some ability at self-correcting.

On the positive side, I think this has resulted in both an increase in grass roots activity, and in the corporate media providing a superior product since January!

H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
25. Right.
Mon May 22, 2017, 06:22 PM
May 2017

The amount of acrimony on sites -- including here -- doesn't help create unity. It seems to get worse with each primary season.

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
14. Thanks for sharing your insight.
Mon May 22, 2017, 02:39 PM
May 2017

I really appreciate people such as yourself here who do ponder and then TAKE THE TIME to share it all.
I am usually......too lazy to create such clear essays. I must say I pretty much get ALL my 'news' here. Any time I turn on the car radio, which is usually NPR, classical stations, etc...and catch the hourly news, it is always, " Eh, I know that already from DU!" LOL!!

Anyway thanks....

Oh,, I am not so sure the corporate media will keep up doing even as well as they have been. I just don't trust them. When more $$ is too be made conning us, they will... Hope I am wrong..



H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
27. I have to agree
Mon May 22, 2017, 06:25 PM
May 2017

that the corporate media is most likely going to revert once Trump is gone. However, the important role that the entire media plays may inspire some thoughtful young folks to pursue a career in some form of journalism.

tblue37

(65,227 posts)
9. Jared's actual title for his made up position in Trump's (mis)administration
Mon May 22, 2017, 02:15 PM
May 2017

is "Senior White House Advisor," so I don't think the label applied to the unknown high level advisor is exactly a coincidence.

H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
29. No coincidence.
Mon May 22, 2017, 06:28 PM
May 2017

There just aren't that many others trying to hijack US foreign policy. He's in way over his head.

Initech

(100,038 posts)
13. May the wall never get built!
Mon May 22, 2017, 02:24 PM
May 2017

And if for some god forsaken reason it does, may the next president knock it down!

H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
36. Right.
Mon May 22, 2017, 08:07 PM
May 2017

It quite literally can never be built, but he may attempt to push for part of it to be started. He'll do so, to rally his rabid supporters.

Initech

(100,038 posts)
37. He'll have a groundbreaking ceremony akin to George Bluth from Arrested Development.
Mon May 22, 2017, 08:16 PM
May 2017

They're not really going to do anything, but it will make them look good to the investors, in this case, voters.

bucolic_frolic

(43,044 posts)
15. President Obama
Mon May 22, 2017, 02:45 PM
May 2017

assured the American people that the United States would respond
to the election imbroglio at a 'time and place of our choosing'

That was a comprehensive manner of expression to be sure, and at
the time we hadn't a clue what he really meant. A lot has developed
since then, and it all has to play out.

Keep the faith. Resist.

Joe Nation

(962 posts)
18. I disagree....
Mon May 22, 2017, 02:53 PM
May 2017

I think Trump had no idea that he couldn't just build a wall if he wanted to as president. The rest of the nonsense he spewed about Mexico paying for it, and sowing seeds of immigrant hatred, was all intentional of course but I think when people attribute too much actual planning and forethought to people like Trump, they give these people way too much credit.

Trump is one of the dumbest damn chimps on the planet and nothing he does is with any amount of planning or thought. The people around have slowly learned to manipulate his inability to comprehend simple concepts and are using him to force their own agenda through. I doubt Trump has any concept of all the agendas that swirl around him.

FakeNoose

(32,579 posts)
38. Yep, he hasn't a clue
Mon May 22, 2017, 08:24 PM
May 2017

He makes it up as he goes along. His posse of "yes men" (and family) all tell him he's right and how smart he is.

But . he . has . no . clue.


H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
48. Interesting.
Tue May 23, 2017, 12:11 PM
May 2017

He might very well have initially had the idea that a wall was a "solution," and that if he said, "Build a wall," it would be accomplished. And he is indeed ignorant of reality.

countryjake

(8,554 posts)
20. Ah yes, the Blackwater Overlord...
Mon May 22, 2017, 03:05 PM
May 2017

glad to see that there are others aware of how deep the roots of this cabal may go.

Thank you, H2O Man, for yet another great read!

H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
53. That's a key point.
Tue May 23, 2017, 04:57 PM
May 2017

The "secret" meeting rubbed a lot of military intelligence folks the wrong way. And for good reason. I think that people need to look at that segment in the context of Iran-contra, to fully appreciate how dangerous this really is.

Blue_Roses

(12,894 posts)
26. Just finished reading
Mon May 22, 2017, 06:24 PM
May 2017

Malcolm Nance's book. ( I think I might have a little crush on him! )

As I was reading, I had to flip back and check the publication date and of course, it was published way before any of this stuff started coming out.How did he know all this so early on?

It's sad to see our country go through such betrayal from the man who is suppose to uphold the Constitution. But, I do see us getting through this and we will be stronger because of it.

So Putin will lose in the long run. His tricks to try and erode our democracy has ironically, made us fight back, giving a fresh new face to freedom.

Blue_Roses

(12,894 posts)
30. I actually wondered about that
Mon May 22, 2017, 06:38 PM
May 2017

I saw him on Bill Maher's show a few weeks ago and he definitely knows his stuff. He has a great poker face too. So maybe we'll find out in his next book!

H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
56. I saw a recent
Tue May 23, 2017, 04:59 PM
May 2017

interview, where he said that initially, they were unsure of how dangerous the Trump group was. There was concern that they might be intelligent. But, to their relief, it turns out that they are surprisingly stupid.

Me.

(35,454 posts)
32. He's Always Been A Liar
Mon May 22, 2017, 06:56 PM
May 2017

Last edited Mon May 22, 2017, 07:27 PM - Edit history (1)

And thinks he can get away with anything because he always has. But he's in the bigs now and what he's going to find, especially with the Cons, is that it's every man for himself. And they will hang his sorry, uninformed, mendacious, duplicitous self out to dry when it serves their purpose. That includes his grifter children and in-laws.

“Trump made separate appeals to the director of national intelligence, Daniel Coats, and to Adm. Michael S. Rogers, the director of the National Security Agency, urging them to publicly deny the existence of any evidence of collusion during the 2016 election.

Coats and Rogers refused to comply with the requests, which they both deemed to be inappropriate, according to two current and two former officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss private communications with the president. “

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10141781437

Edited my post to say lies and liars always receive their due even if it takes more than a hundred years. Case in point...Robert E. Lee...historians are correcting the myth that he was a great general and hero...quite the opposite in fact and like DT, incompetent. Now it seems that this may be a time for the truth to work it's way out. Hopefully, the DT truth will come to the fore for everyone to see much, much, sooner than the general.


H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
39. That's outstanding!
Mon May 22, 2017, 10:12 PM
May 2017

I wondered how much more would come out while the clown is overseas. It should be wild when he returns.

I've heard that several people in the White House are retaining lawyers, including those who want to avoid being sucked in. And morale is so low. More, they are having trouble finding new people willing to join the administration. Gracious! This is such a strange time.

Me.

(35,454 posts)
40. 'They Say'
Mon May 22, 2017, 10:56 PM
May 2017

The reason Priebus and Bannon came racing back was because of this.

I wonder, have you seen the Mensch and Taylor Tweets etc. and what is your opinion of their reports.

Also...I was surprised by Dan Coats and his reply as I thought he was one of the diehard Cons.

H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
57. Right.
Tue May 23, 2017, 05:05 PM
May 2017

Priebus and Bannon ....what a pair. Bannon is by far the worst of the two. While he may escape legal consequences, he will be humiliated as this unfolds.

I'm aware of the Mensch and Taylor tweets, etc. I tend to like them both, but I think they get ahead of themselves on some issues. I'm not aware of who their sources are, but am 100% sure they erred in one recent report. But that happens in this type of situation, as Woodward and Bernstein learned.

Coats is a very conservative fellow. He sees a sinking ship, and is not inclined to stay on it!

Me.

(35,454 posts)
69. Given The Disputes Here On DU Regarding Taylor & Mensch
Tue May 23, 2017, 06:39 PM
May 2017

I find your response to be enormously interesting and that I absolutely agree with you.

I do know from past experience Libby/Rove that things can go awry and end up not as expected.

I’m thinking about a friend whom I trusted completely, who met up with a young DA who used to go out with her daughter and with whom she had a good relationship. She hadn’t expected to see him but they sat and had coffee. He then told her he was currently working in DC on the case. She mentioned her intense interest in the case, and while not saying so, managed to convey to her that Rove was definitely, in the crosshairs. And what came of it….nothing. She was as confused as I but as she told me, neither of us was privy to what was happening behind the scene and what deals were made. It is always so, I think. You just never know.

democrank

(11,085 posts)
35. You're like a DU port in a storm, H20 Man.
Mon May 22, 2017, 07:54 PM
May 2017

My old head is still spinning from last week's Trump News....then BAM!, he does something else. Joy Reid has a "Moment of Maxine", DU has a Moment of Waterman. Thanks for the sanity you're spreading around.

Trump's time so far has been like a 120 mph car chase.Stolen car. Took a left on Maple Street. Ran a red light on Main Street. Flew off the ramp just past the gas station. Flipped it by the high school.Brought it back under control. Hit a pedestrian on the bridge. Tore down the toll booth. Going in wrong direction on I-95.

There seems to be no end to it and about 2/3 of the country is exhausted.

Trump somehow got hold of a gazillion mob-friendly cement blocks and built a wall using lies as his filler. It's going to crash on his peroxided head and maybe even crush a couple of his tiny fingers. Believe me. It's going to be quite interesting. Bigly.

H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
60. Thanks!
Tue May 23, 2017, 05:16 PM
May 2017

As I watch Trump, and hear others report on his behavior, my mind goes back to the days where in staff meetings, we would diagnose what mental illness, personality disorder, and/or organic brain damage an individual had. With Trump, a significant amount is obviously an entrenched personality disorder -- one that causes others, not Donald, to suffer. And this can result in episodes of psychosis, under unusual stress. But it really appears that organic decay could be involved.

H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
61. Thanks!
Tue May 23, 2017, 05:20 PM
May 2017

I'm looking forward to some of the books that will be coming out in the next year! (grin) I have a part of my library for books by and about US presidents, and had decided to never get a Trump book. Even if someone paid me to accept it. But under the current circumstances, I imagine that his downfall will provide me some pleasurable reading!

BlancheSplanchnik

(20,219 posts)
43. Change, in people and in institutions is slow. So frustrating.
Tue May 23, 2017, 10:10 AM
May 2017

So thank you, H2O Man. So good to be reminded of that truth.

H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
63. So true!
Tue May 23, 2017, 05:24 PM
May 2017

While I dislike VP Pence, and had worried that he might be worse than Trump in some ways, I'm confident that this process will damage him, as well. I'm surprised that anyone accepts the bit about firing Flynn because he lied to Pence. That's simply not true, of course, and the only "evidence" of it is that the White House claimed it to be true.

Toxic industrial waste dumps tend to create a large plume. Toxic administration do, too.

BlancheSplanchnik

(20,219 posts)
68. I love the metaphor.
Tue May 23, 2017, 06:31 PM
May 2017

Toxic waste administrations, like toxic waste dumps, create a large plume.

Can't believe anyone believes the lie that Comey was fired for harming Hillary's campaign, either.

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
49. I think, he actually believed that as POTUS he could bully Mexico into paying for the wall.
Tue May 23, 2017, 12:12 PM
May 2017

1. Trump would LOVE to leave a huge landmark with his name attached to it.

2. Trump had a totally wrong impression what it's like to be POTUS. He thought he would merely be the new boss and take over a functioning administration. He thought that he would give undisputed orders. He thought that a powerful nation such as the US could simply bully other nations into doing whatever he wants.

H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
64. Valid points.
Tue May 23, 2017, 05:28 PM
May 2017

Thank you. I still think he knew he was full of shit about the wall, but recognize that others make equally (or more) valid points on his desire to build a landmark for himself.

Trump will go down in history, just not in the manner he deluded himself into believing possible.

moonseller66

(430 posts)
51. Humpty Trumpy - just for fun
Tue May 23, 2017, 12:39 PM
May 2017

Humpty Trumpy sat on a wall
Humpty Trumpy had a Great Fall.
All White House sources and all White House aides
Can't clean up the mess of this vile rotten egg.

Tatiana

(14,167 posts)
62. Excellent summary.
Tue May 23, 2017, 05:24 PM
May 2017

Particularly cogent is the point made about the intelligence community.

These are chickens coming home to roost in more ways than one. But what is going on is the destabilization of our domestic government by the so-called spooks. This will probably hurt us a bit more before things get better.

I only hope our surviving institutions can help rid us of our autocratic blight and that we won't require a revolution to maintain our freedoms. I have been encouraged by latest Supreme Court rulings.

Kushner is a weak link. They should bring the most pressure against him to see if he will flip. Flynn is a military guy -- he has the fortitude to wait things out in discomfort. But pretty Jared -- no. He'll try to make a deal.

Great post. I think those inside the WH will help tear down that wall.

H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
67. Interesting points.
Tue May 23, 2017, 05:39 PM
May 2017

I agree fully that there are risks when the intelligence community seeks to overthrow a US politician or social activists. And, as a rule, I am opposed to it. Nixon was the one exception, though even in that case, Felt et al were not doing so for the same reasons that people like myself wanted Dick impeached.

In this case, there are two closely related factors that I think are encouraging. First, the intelligence community is attempting to exercise some of the nation's foundational strengths. And second, the grass roots is extremely active, and appears ready to remain so.

Kushner is indeed a weak link. He's a softy. However, Flynn isn't really a tough guy .....his bit is situational. He is going to turn on anyone and everyone he possibly can, to save himself. Even old Ollie North, who fancied himself tough, tried to save his own hide. But North attempted to maintain some degree of self-respect -- something Flynn is incapable of.

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