Have I read the bury power lines posts right?

[RB TexLa]

There are people here who want millions and millions of dollars spent and all the hassle it takes to bury power lines . . . because from time to time electricity is not delivered to your house? Just how God damn entitled are you?

[taterguy]

1. Pretty damned entitled when my beer supply is at risk

[Fumesucker]

2. At least the jobs burying the lines couldn't be outsourced..

I take it you've never had a downed power line in your yard?

[unblock]

3. you are aware that people die from downed power lines, yes?

downed power lines cause many problems, from falling utility poles damaging vehicles, people, and animal; downed wires electrocuting people and animals; both blocking roads (often at a time of inclement weather, when emergency services are required), and that loss of power to a house in and of itself can be life-threatening, such as during a heat wave or if any residents are reliant on electricity for medical equipment.

[DBoon]

20. You need to consider economic losses to businesses

Not to trivialize the possible loss of life, but power outages result in lost revenue, spoiled goods and other inventory losses, etc. Backup power is expensive, and usually is not a full replacement. A single business may be able to operate from backup, but if their vendors and customers are out, they will still suffer outages

Add up the dollars and cents from widespread power outages and the cost of burying lines may not seem so bad.

Reliable infrastructure is one thing that distinguishes the first world from the developing world.

[phylny]

43. Our office in Lynchburg, VA was closed for two days, and not only

did we lose revenue, but we are not being paid - we have to take either unpaid time or use vacation time.

I've lived in places where there were buried lines, and not only was it more aesthetically pleasing, but we didn't lose power once in four years we lived there.

We're thinking of buying a propane generator.

[Rex]

4. Entitled? Maybe nobody told you but people pay MONEY

for the service of electricity...your post must be sarcasm or a joke.

[Skidmore]

5. In our village all power cables have been buried since electricity was brought to it.

If we have a power outtage, it is rare and lasts no more than a few minutes. We are able to do this because a nearby factory is a good corporate citizen and the village power needs are switched to the factory backup generators until power can be reestablished. There have been several occasions when our area is an island in the midst of a greater outtage for Alliant customers.

[global1]

6. Well - Let's Just Keep Putting Them Back Up ......

so we have to do the same thing again after the next storm.... and the next storm.....and the next storm.....etc. That makes perfect sense. Doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

[oldhippie]

7. As soon as they see the bill ...

... they would change their minds. They would only be OK with it if "somebody else" was paying for it.

[dkf]

11. Oh they expect only the rich to pay I'm sure.

[Fumesucker]

15. The rich are the ones with most of the money...

Why shouldn't they pay?

[TheWraith]

28. That's not quite how it works.

You don't just say "Okay, we're going to bury all of the power lines today. Here's how much it'll cost." You gradually upgrade lines as part of regular maintenance, with particular attention paid to lines which have gone down recently, lines in heavily treed areas, etcetera. Done properly, it shouldn't be much more expensive than running new line.

[Igel]

33. After Ike it was talked about. A lot.

And, yes, it would cost a lot.

It doesn't matter if you pay for it at once or over 10 years, it still costs a lot. Most lines take little maintenance--the primary maintenance is trimming trees, and that's easily done with the equipment they already have. Most lines in existence have had all the nice legal niceties taken care of. They can be there, they run over top of stuff.

The ones underground? None of the legal niceties have been taken care of. There's still maintenance to do--but now you have to dig up stuff. And just as when laying the line, that "stuff" can be everything from roads to driveways and sidewalks and landscaping.

Undeground lines also require different cables, different requirements. Houston has, for much of the year, a water table that's really at the grassroots level. So you'd wind up laying electrical wire underwater. If you nick it with a shovel during the dry season, you dribble electricity--then when it rains or gets flooded, it shorts and you get to figure out where the hole in the line is.

It's a good fix in parts of the country. It's a horrible plan for part of the country. Implement it where it's appropriate--but don't make people who don't benefit from it, who can't benefit from it, pay for it.

[RC]

49. And don't forget burrowing animals like gophers.

[COLGATE4]

35. That is the absolute truth. Retrofitting distribution lines

by undergrounding is tremendously expensive. The only way utilities can do it is by asking the State Regulators to put it into their rate base, i.e. raise electric rates. Most regulators don't want to do it because most people don't want their electric rates raised to do it.

[phleshdef]

8. I personally think it would be wonderful as an infrastructure/job creation project.

There is no excuse for the USA to not have a state of the art energy infrastructure. And taking measures to reduce power outages should be part of that effort.

[pnwmom]

12. That and shoring up the bridges. n/t

[csziggy]

32. We also need to upgrade the electrical grid

Right now in many areas people generating solar or wind power on their own property cannot sell power to the utility companies because the grid is not capable of handling it. If we upgraded the grid to allow distributed generation, more people would be willing to make the investment in technology to generate their own and maybe surplus electrical power.

For instance, there are many days a year when I could probably generate more power than I would need if I put solar panels up, but my local electrical co-op cannot purchase that extra power. At the time we built our house that was one factor in deciding NOT to invest in photo voltaic panels (instead we invested in a better insulated, tighter house which is paying off).

If I could count on a monetary return for my investment, I could budget sooner for that technology. As it is, for my own use, it would take too long to repay the investment for me to spend the money any time soon.

[COLGATE4]

36. Why can't you sell your excess power to the co-op?

Many states permit it.

[oldhippie]

45. Some states permit it, some don't .....

... and in most places co-ops are exempt from a lot of the regs that affect IOUs.

[NeverEnuff]

53. Indiana says no

Can't do it here. I wanted to install a large wind plant on my property and sell the excess on a net metering basis. I was told I would have to go off grid and net metering was not available at my co-op. Sucks!

[COLGATE4]

68. It really does. Big time. Sorry to hear it. nt

[csziggy]

65. The way their systems are set up, they cannot accept the input

At least that is what I was told in 2006 and 2007 when I was researching systems for my house.

That may be changing - they changed out two of the meters on the farm last year but they still have not changed out the one on the house for some reason or another.

If I were not paying for two knee replacements this year (even with insurance my co-pays are going to be a major hit to my budget) I would have asked if these new meters would change the situation. Maybe once my knees are paid for I will be able to consider photo voltaic technology again. No point in doing it ahead of time since the technology changes every year.

[RC]

50. Killing innocent brown people half a world away is more important.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

9. isn't it cheaper in the long run to bury them?

[COLGATE4]

37. Not really. There's little maintenance on overhead lines.

The cost of the pole is amortized over 30-40 years plus the cost of tree trimming every 7-10 years.

[oldhippie]

47. Google "underground power lines" ...

... you'll find lots of references as to why it is so expensive and generally not done except in newly planned and constructed neighborhood. Even then, only the neighborhood distribution lines (maybe 28kV or so?) are underground. The higher voltage transmission lines that bring the power to neighborhood substations are almost always overhead due to both cost and technical factors.

Electric power can also be transmitted by underground power cables instead of overhead power lines. Underground cables take up less right-of-way than overhead lines, have lower visibility, and are less affected by bad weather. However, costs of insulated cable and excavation are much higher than overhead construction. Faults in buried transmission lines take longer to locate and repair. Underground lines are strictly limited by their thermal capacity, which permits less overload or re-rating than overhead lines. Long underground cables have significant capacitance, which may reduce their ability to provide useful power to loads.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undergrounding

[dkf]

10. We have buried power lines, no snow storms, and we still have power outages.

[pnwmom]

13. Are you connected to some area that doesn't have buried lines? That's our problem. n/t

[JesterCS]

14. considering that most money paid to energy companies goes towards bonuses, stocks, etc

and especially the CEO of Duke getting 44mil for ONE day of work then resigning. Hell yes I demand they spend money and fix the failing infrastructure

[COLGATE4]

38. I think if you look closely the people that get the

big $$$ are executives of the holding company which in turns owns the electric company. That's where the big $$$ go - not to the utility itself.

[RKP5637]

16. What they do here is bury them underground in residential areas and then

surface on the main highways. I think in the long term it might save money on the utilities. We get a lot of wind storms.

[Spider Jerusalem]

17. it's about infrastructure, not entitlement

most of the developed world has underground lines in places prone to tornadoes, thunderstorms, windfalls, and so on; if you calculate the number of man-hours spent on line maintencance and repair as a result of outages that would be prevented from underground lines, then it works out cheaper over the long term.

[Ruby the Liberal]

18. You don't get infrastructure upgrades

or job creation, do you.

[RB TexLa]

34. they seemed to be more along the lines of "I want this done, I could be subjected to perspiring"

[Electric Monk]

40. Less risk of that for the cold hearted though, so I guess you're safe.

This thread is basically another example of an "If I've got mine, everyone else can get bent, I ain't paying a penny extra to help someone else." mentality. Ignore any nuance, like it actually saving consumers money in some instances, just support the Chamber Of Commerce position.

[RB TexLa]

41. No, my power goes out from things. I don't feel I'm entitled to them providing it to me with

no interruptions.

[morningfog]

64. Your very life obviously doesn't depend on the electricity.

Some people's lives do. The question isn't whether you are entitled, the question is whether we could do it or should do it for those who do depend on it and others. We can do it. We should do it.

[LiberalEsto]

42. So you think the elderly poor who suffered through this past week of hell

in the DC area aren't entitled to electricity to power their fans, refrigerators or their room air conditioners?
What about those of us who had to toss out frozen and refrigerated food once again?

The DC area's frequent and lengthy electric power outages make us feel like we live in a third world country.

The wealthy can afford their own power generators.

[wandy]

19. Not to mention that the over head lines may have been their since the 1950s......

Not to mention they might not be capable of meeting todays demands.
Not to mention they may be very near or at end of life.
Not having an infrastructure is a bad thing. It is the highway to hell or at least to becoming a third world country.
We haven't been doing much to maintain our infrastructure lately.
My experience with any complex device is that it all seams to fail at the same time.
That would be a bad thing.

[2on2u]

21. Not only that, I also want some buried to the moon so my hot tub will always be

on the ready, so there.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

22. There are people here who want trillions of dollars spent to fight lost wars.

Because, regularly, the politicians want to fight wars to prove their tough..communism, terror, or..something.

I'll take buried power lines over buried people any day.

[dixiegrrrrl]

25. "I'll take buried power lines over buried people any day. "

Amen to that.

[RKP5637]

26. +++ 1,000,000 +++ n/t

[Ikonoklast]

23. In the long run, it saves the utility money to do so, making it more profitable.

Why do you hate stockholders so much?

[DainBramaged]

24. It never stops does it?

[HopeHoops]

27. We've got underground lines and rarely lose power. If we do, it's a transformer at the substation.

The high-tension lines that feed the substation run through our yard. They're a lightening magnet but I've only had two occasions in the last ten years where I thought our poll got hit. Areal lines are mostly downed by falling tree branches. We have no such problem. It isn't an "elitist" issue, it's evolution. Why do you think WV was hit so hard? Damn near everything there is pole-based power. One major storm and you're fucked.

[Progressive dog]

29. burying lines is no magic solution

Every few years, the power goes out even with buried cables. Then they have to go under ground to fix it. They can't bury the high voltage grid lines and burying the power plants won't help.

[benld74]

30. MAYBE if the utility would spend some of its $$$profit,,,

being proactive when it comes to

1) trimming trees close to their power lines

Their customers would not be affected as much when storms do hit the area.

[randome]

31. I think this is a more recent concern because of climate change.

People die from heat when the power is out.

[girl gone mad]

39. Hello?? We have an unemployment/underemployment crisis in America.

We do not have a shortage of money or shortage of people willing and able to work.

This should be part of a national energy plan which upgrades our infrastructure and pumps money into clean energy solutions.

[IDemo]

44. Real-world Experience and Third-party Research on the Feasibility of Underground Power

http://www.entergy.com/2008_hurricanes/Underground-lines.pdf

A 2006 study by the Edison Electric Institute found that burying overhead power lines costs approximately $1 million per mile, 10 times what it costs to install overhead lines.

<>
Studies of statewide undergrounding proposals in North Carolina in 2002 and Florida in 2003 suggest that undergrounding distribution lines would require rate increases ranging from 80 percent to 125 percent.
A 2004 study by the Virginia Corporation Commission calculated the annual cost of a statewide undergrounding initiative at approximately $3,500 per customer. Based on the projected costs and benefits for undergrounding much of its state’s electric system, the Virginia commission calculated that the benefits would offset only about 38 percent of total costs and concluded that a comprehensive statewide effort to bury the state’s electric distribution system appears “unreasonable.”

<>
A 2000 study by the Maryland Public Service Commission looked at the reliability of “comparable” overhead and underground feeders and concluded that the impact of undergrounding the lines was, at best, “unclear.” As underground cables approach their end of life, the Maryland report showed, failures increase significantly and are extremely difficult to locate and repair. Maryland utilities say their underground cables become unreliable after 15 to 20 years and reach their end of life after 25 to 35 years.

[pintobean]

48. Thanks.

Facts are always useful.

[jody]

51. It's not fair to bring facts to an ignorant rant. nt

[meaculpa2011]

57. A friend of mine at Con Ed...

told me the same thing a few years ago. $1 million per linear mile, a doubling of electric rates and marginal benefit.

[dionysus]

46. i do not upgrade infastructure with you.

[2on2u]

52. Tesla was gonna send it through the ionosphere, all you would need is an antenna. n/t

[Lint Head]

54. One day power lines will be old technology.

[MiniMe]

55. Considering that the homes with buried power lines were out of power overnight, and those with above

ground power lines were out for 5 days, in the middle of an obnoxious heatwave, I don't consider it entitled at all. I have a heart condition, and I don't do well in heat at all. In fact, it is a major health hazard for me. I was lucky that a friend of mine had power, and I went and stayed with the friend, with the dogs. Tried calling hotels who took dogs, and they were all full. And that was 10am after the storm.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. Actually this is infrastructure at the most basic

and the front line investment of billions, will stop the spending every year of well billions.

But you knew that.

[pintobean]

58. What's the problem?

Is there a reason you insulted the fuck out of anyone who disagrees?

[morningfog]

59. Wow. What callousness. That electricity brings relief to elderly and the young who could die

without it. What is with your hate-everyone schtick? I try, but don't understand your motivation.

[Voice for Peace]

60. I'd just like to have a view of the sky without all those wires and poles everywhere

(otherwise I haven't been following the discussion)

[GarroHorus]

61. I wrote a thread about burying the friggin' power lines.

Ever hear of the Tennessee Valley Authority and what it did to build better lives and boost the economy?

BTW, I've lived in my house where power lines are buried for the past nine years since the house was built.

In those nine years I think the power has been out a total of maybe as much as 4 hours, it's hard to say. I think the longest outage was a couple of hours shortly after we moved in when a piece of equipment was being replaced to increase capacity.

It's nice when you have a week straight of 100 degree temperatures knowing your power is reliable. It's nicer still when a dericho moves through your area and the lights don't even flicker, though you may worry about your shingles.

[snooper2]

62. This thread is full of folks not knowing what they are talking about..so here's a cool video

Go to 5 min in to see the good part, or watch the whole thing

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. We lived in a house with buried lines and lost our power all the time.

It went out at the main transformer when it rained. Go figure.

[Zavulon]

66. I honestly can't tell if the OP is in jest or not.

I don't think burying the lines is a good idea either, but if I did I'd be all for it. In three-digit heat I don't think anyone who wants air conditioning deserves to be called "entitled."

[Stinky The Clown]

67. Our region has seen 9 deaths since the heat started and the power went out.

Talk to their families about the cost.