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B2G

(9,766 posts)
Sun Jun 4, 2017, 11:30 AM Jun 2017

Want to defend yourself in the UK?

Tough shit.



"The only fully legal self defence product at the moment is a rape alarm. These are not expensive and can be bought from most local police stations or supermarkets.

There are other self defence products which claim to be legal (e.g. non toxic sprays), however, until a test case is brought before the court, we cannot confirm their legality or endorse them. If you purchase one you must be aware that if you are stopped by the police and have it in your possession there is always a possibility that you will be arrested and detained until the product, it's contents and legality can be verified.

However, accepting there is a lot of concern about street crime, we can try to clarify matters a little by putting forward the following points.

You must not get a product which is made or adapted to cause a person injury. Possession of such a product in public (and in private in specific circumstances) is against the law.
There are products which squirt a relatively safe, brightly coloured dye (as opposed to a pepper spray). A properly designed product of this nature, used in the way it is intended, should not be able to cause an injury.
However, be aware that even a seemingly safe product, deliberately aimed and sprayed in someone's eyes, would become an offensive weapon because it would be used in a way that was intended to cause injury."

https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q589.htm

38 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Want to defend yourself in the UK? (Original Post) B2G Jun 2017 OP
That the terrorists were using knives and vehicles kinda emphasizes their options were limited too. Pholus Jun 2017 #1
You cannot even carry PEPPER SPRAY B2G Jun 2017 #3
No, it isn't if you don't want it to be. Then again, I am trying to picture the situation and Pholus Jun 2017 #6
They really should make it much easier to buy guns EarlG Jun 2017 #2
This isn't about guns B2G Jun 2017 #4
You can't possess a knife? A chunk of brick? A bat? No hands or feet? uppityperson Jun 2017 #34
No knives, bats, pepper spray, etc. nt B2G Jun 2017 #37
Wrong. Pocket knives are legal. uppityperson Jun 2017 #38
Exactly.... HipChick Jun 2017 #5
Some of you are missing the point of the OP Calculating Jun 2017 #7
Thank you. B2G Jun 2017 #8
Strangely the terrorists had no access either.... Pholus Jun 2017 #9
AND the UK does NOT have even HALF the murder rate of Gun-totin, pepper sprayin' rustydog Jun 2017 #10
* A factor of 4 lower murder rate. Pholus Jun 2017 #11
Violent crime in the UK is up 27% B2G Jun 2017 #12
And yet still vastly smaller than ours. LanternWaste Jun 2017 #24
Duh, they need a smaller murder rate. They have fewer people Bucky Jun 2017 #32
I like UK's gun laws. If for no other reason, criminals seldom have access to handguns. Hoyt Jun 2017 #13
They also have that nasty trend recently of acid in the face attacks Bucky Jun 2017 #30
defend yourself in the UK? mitch96 Jun 2017 #14
Pepper spray is illegal in the UK sarisataka Jun 2017 #16
Ok, bug spray it is... mitch96 Jun 2017 #23
Yeah, but there are things just as good a pepper spray folks can carry, if they actually feel the Hoyt Jun 2017 #28
I'd Carry A Cricket Bat Everywhere JimGinPA Jun 2017 #15
You would be facing two years in prison sarisataka Jun 2017 #18
Then carry this, it's also useful for UK weather. Hoyt Jun 2017 #29
And they get to make that decision. It's their country. politicat Jun 2017 #17
My daughter is in London, still she feels safer there than in the gun-wielding states of the U.S. TheBlackAdder Jun 2017 #19
I've never felt unsafe in the UK. cwydro Jun 2017 #20
Lucky You MosheFeingold Jun 2017 #31
The fact that you feel the need to go armed for self-defence... Spider Jerusalem Jun 2017 #21
They seem to get by with their fists pretty well Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2017 #22
Here's what you actually do: RUN AWAY! MineralMan Jun 2017 #25
Great advice, even when carrying. SQUEE Jun 2017 #35
It's important we believe your tough shit about other countries LanternWaste Jun 2017 #26
And yet, look at their homicide rate. DanTex Jun 2017 #27
Small spray bottle full of ammonia. JoeStuckInOH Jun 2017 #33
Pepper spray and knives release my inner berserker. hunter Jun 2017 #36

Pholus

(4,062 posts)
1. That the terrorists were using knives and vehicles kinda emphasizes their options were limited too.
Sun Jun 4, 2017, 11:48 AM
Jun 2017

Or are you going to seriously argue the terrorists were just thrilled their vests were fake when they could have had real ones in a more weapon-oriented society?

Overall, I think I'd trade away my right to carry if it also lowered the murder rate by a factor of 20. Then again, I tend to be more rational than emotional...

Pholus

(4,062 posts)
6. No, it isn't if you don't want it to be. Then again, I am trying to picture the situation and
Sun Jun 4, 2017, 11:53 AM
Jun 2017

honestly I would prefer a good bar stool to pepper spray from what I've read.

But if I had been there I would be just damned glad the freaks aren't as gunned up as the freaks in this country are.

EarlG

(21,894 posts)
2. They really should make it much easier to buy guns
Sun Jun 4, 2017, 11:49 AM
Jun 2017

Because there's no way that would have made yesterday's attack ten times worse.

 

B2G

(9,766 posts)
4. This isn't about guns
Sun Jun 4, 2017, 11:51 AM
Jun 2017

It's illegal to possess any item that would stop your attacker using a non-lethal method.

That's just insane.

uppityperson

(115,674 posts)
34. You can't possess a knife? A chunk of brick? A bat? No hands or feet?
Mon Jun 5, 2017, 12:54 PM
Jun 2017

There are lots of items legally possessable.

Calculating

(2,954 posts)
7. Some of you are missing the point of the OP
Sun Jun 4, 2017, 12:03 PM
Jun 2017

It's not that he wants everyone packing guns, but the UK currently bans ANY and ALL self defense products outside of rape whistles. No pepper spray, no tasers, no knives, no batons, nothing. It's like they want all of their citizens to be unarmed sheep ready for the slaughter!

 

B2G

(9,766 posts)
8. Thank you.
Sun Jun 4, 2017, 12:05 PM
Jun 2017

Glad someone gets it.

No way am I questioning their gun laws. But that's the go-to knee jerk for many.

rustydog

(9,186 posts)
10. AND the UK does NOT have even HALF the murder rate of Gun-totin, pepper sprayin'
Sun Jun 4, 2017, 12:19 PM
Jun 2017

nunchuk totin, road raging America. The point trying to be made is weak. England has a lower murder rate and they"Ban everything!"

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
24. And yet still vastly smaller than ours.
Mon Jun 5, 2017, 11:50 AM
Jun 2017

And yet still, regardless of how you use the numbers to better validate your narrative and agenda, that number is vastly smaller than ours.

Bucky

(53,795 posts)
32. Duh, they need a smaller murder rate. They have fewer people
Mon Jun 5, 2017, 12:06 PM
Jun 2017

We've got 'em to spare. But our poor weapons manufacturing industry can only make so many bullets per year. Bless their hearts

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
13. I like UK's gun laws. If for no other reason, criminals seldom have access to handguns.
Sun Jun 4, 2017, 12:57 PM
Jun 2017

More importantly, the lack of guns means you'd be defending yourself -- in the unlikely event the occasion arises -- against someone who is not likely to have a gun or two tucked in their pants.

That means something like these -- which are legal to carry in UK -- are effective.

?zoom=1.25&resize=244%2C239





?zoom=1.25&resize=150%2C150






And people can keep a rifle/shotgun, machete, crossbow in their homes, although you have to go through some hoops to qualify.



The big problem with gun laws in UK and most advanced countries is that it means the ignorant white wing gun fanciers that live here don't have anywhere else to go. So we are stuck with these deplorables and their demand for more guns in more places just makes it easier for criminals to get guns.

Bucky

(53,795 posts)
30. They also have that nasty trend recently of acid in the face attacks
Mon Jun 5, 2017, 12:04 PM
Jun 2017

I suppose if they had our equivalent of NRA nuts, they'd all advocate walking around with a vial of acid in your pockets. They'd have slogans like "Only a good guy with a vial full of acid can stop a bad guy with a vial full of acid"

mitch96

(13,817 posts)
14. defend yourself in the UK?
Sun Jun 4, 2017, 02:41 PM
Jun 2017

Some say wasp spray or dog repellent spray. Can you get pepper spray in the UK?
m

sarisataka

(18,216 posts)
16. Pepper spray is illegal in the UK
Sun Jun 4, 2017, 03:07 PM
Jun 2017

Pepper spray is illegal to buy or possess in the UK under Section 5 (1) (b) of the Firearms Act 1968.

A person commits an offence if, without the authority of the Defence Council [F1 or the Scottish Ministers (by virtue of provision made under section 63 of the Scotland Act 1998)], he has in his possession, or purchases or acquires, or manufactures, sells or transfers—
[...]

(b)any weapon of whatever description designed or adapted for the discharge of any noxious liquid, gas or other thing; and

A spray, Safehaus Mini Self Defence Spray Criminal Identifier (£9.49 on Amazon, currently out of stock) is being sold as a legal self defense spray. It appears it sprays a non-toxic dye to help identify your assailant afterwards. As the police note in the OP, its use has not been tested in court so if you use it in defense you may find yourself going to prison under Section 5 (1) (b)...

Essentially the only really legal form of self defense in the UK is to summon police by making noise or run away.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
28. Yeah, but there are things just as good a pepper spray folks can carry, if they actually feel the
Mon Jun 5, 2017, 11:59 AM
Jun 2017

need despite high odds one will never encounter a situation where defense is needed.

I know that is something America's gun fanciers have a hard time understanding -- how can someone walk out the door to go to Chuck E Cheeze without a pistol tucked in their pants. But 93+% of Americans seldom need a gun to walk outside, and probably 99% in Britain are just a comfortable without a gun or other weapon.

politicat

(9,808 posts)
17. And they get to make that decision. It's their country.
Sun Jun 4, 2017, 03:09 PM
Jun 2017

They have a representative government, and have clearly weighed the benefits and detriments and have chosen WHAT WORKS FOR THEM. They have the ability to re-evaluate that. If they do so, that's THEIR decision.

A lot of USians may own, but have never actually used a pepper spray. It's not actually that useful in most situations. The best case use for pepper spray is when the attacker is downwind of the person with the spray, in a wide open area. These situations are vanishingly rare in a densely populated island. Use pepper spray in a crowded train compartment or on a busy street, and everyone is getting a dose. Use it when the wind is blowing towards the person with the spray, and the attacker gets almost nothing while the wielder ends up with a faceful, thus putting the person trying to get away from the attacker in a worse position.

Truly, if we're talking about self-defense sprays? The UK legal dye and citric acid sprays are the very best option -- the citric acid works like lemon juice in the eye and up the nose, which causes a few moments of watery, burning eyes and sinuses, and leaves a fairly permanent mark on the skin. The point is to obscure the attacker's vision for a couple seconds so one can run. A heavy flashlight, a cricket bat, or a sturdy umbrella is useful if one has to defend against an attack and one is carrying such an item, and knows how to use it, but like all weapons and all self-defense, 99% of self-defense is training one's own brain and body to react quickly and correctly. Which most people don't do, because that takes work and thought and self-examination.

My self-defense teacher was adamant about kicking people out of the action class who were there because they were afraid. (Those kicked out were sent to a mindfulness and awareness class first.) Giving a scared person the tools to do more effective harm without addressing their unrealistic fears just made them more dangerous and more paranoid. Self-defense is about building one's own confidence and practicing mindfulness so one is aware of hazards and can act appropriately. It's not about beating the shit out of anyone.

 

cwydro

(51,308 posts)
20. I've never felt unsafe in the UK.
Sun Jun 4, 2017, 04:06 PM
Jun 2017

My family lives there.

We visited often, were there during the IRA days, and my parents allowed my sister and I to travel freely on the Tube, on buses, wherever we wanted to go.

MosheFeingold

(3,051 posts)
31. Lucky You
Mon Jun 5, 2017, 12:06 PM
Jun 2017

Try being an observant elderly Jewish man riding the Tube.

Not as bad as Paris, but being cussed at and hard shouldered at least once a week was enough for me to know I was not welcome.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
21. The fact that you feel the need to go armed for self-defence...
Sun Jun 4, 2017, 04:46 PM
Jun 2017

is a good indicator that you live in a profoundly broken and dysfunctional society. (And using the FBI definitions for "violent crime" rather than those used by UK police...which encompass a range of lesser offences that include what would be considered misdemeanour assault in the US...the US clearly has significantly higher rates of "violent crime" in almost every category...see here: https://dispellingthemythukvsusguns.wordpress.com/ )

 

Sen. Walter Sobchak

(8,692 posts)
22. They seem to get by with their fists pretty well
Sun Jun 4, 2017, 05:46 PM
Jun 2017

One of my more memorable moments in the UK was watching the men in a restaurant from the kitchen staff to individual diners beat the shit out of a group of anti-meat protestors who stormed into the restaurant.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
25. Here's what you actually do: RUN AWAY!
Mon Jun 5, 2017, 11:51 AM
Jun 2017

There's no weapon you can carry that will stop a truck or van trying to run you down. There's no mace or pepper spray that will deter someone with a long knife looking to slash your neck. You won't have time to get your pistola out, either.

The best defense is to be alert at all times and know your escape routes in case something occurs. Always. Just RUN AWAY as fast as you can. That's how you survive. Forget the rest.

SQUEE

(1,315 posts)
35. Great advice, even when carrying.
Mon Jun 5, 2017, 01:07 PM
Jun 2017

Avoid confrontation, at all costs. Be alert, and avoid anywhere you would "need to be armed" as much as is practicable.
I do not carry to be a hero, and will avoid being one if at all possible.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
26. It's important we believe your tough shit about other countries
Mon Jun 5, 2017, 11:55 AM
Jun 2017

It's important we believe your tough shit about other countries when their laws don't validate our biases and narratives.

It's also important we pretend our readers "just aren't getting it" to better minimize their opinions that run counter to ours.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
27. And yet, look at their homicide rate.
Mon Jun 5, 2017, 11:56 AM
Jun 2017

The fiction pushed by the NRA and gun lobby is that "a good guy with a gun" is the solution to crime. Problem with that is: every other first-world country has much tighter gun laws and much lower levels of gun violence and homicide.

I'm sure there are plenty of flaws with UK self-defense laws. Yeah, I think pepper spray should be legal. But big picture, if we swapped our self-defense laws for theirs, we would save thousands of lives per year.

 

JoeStuckInOH

(544 posts)
33. Small spray bottle full of ammonia.
Mon Jun 5, 2017, 12:25 PM
Jun 2017

If you think you can breathe and see after getting sprayed in the face with ammonia, you've got another thing coming. It's straight up debilitating.

If you're caught carrying it... it's for public toilet-seat cleaner & disinfectant.

hunter

(38,264 posts)
36. Pepper spray and knives release my inner berserker.
Mon Jun 5, 2017, 01:10 PM
Jun 2017

I'm a pacifist by necessity, not by natural inclination. I don't tell those stories here because they are sad and my inner idiot strong. I identify somewhat with Captain Piccard of the Starship Enterprise who lost his heart in a barroom altercation, although I'm nowhere near as wise as Piccard yet, only as bald and gray.)

The thing about random violence is that it happens quickly. People don't generally figure out what's happening until after they've been shot, knifed, or run over by a vehicle.

Seriously, what's your defense against a vehicle that suddenly turns onto the sidewalk? Maybe wear a helmet and full body armor wherever you go?

The "defense" industry is bullshit on all scales, from an individual carrying pepper spray to a navy fielding aircraft carriers. It's ALL offensive in the end.

Guns for "defense" are especially stupid. "Bad guys" shoot first and they are reckless and sometimes suicidal too, otherwise they wouldn't be bad guys. Cops carry guns and they still get shot. They also shoot a lot of people for no good reason. Once the guns come out, everything is fubar. It doesn't matter who is holding them.

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