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Sun Jun 11, 2017, 08:26 AM

SO PISSED: George Allen Being Able to Lie With Impunity

On MSNBC. Five minutes of lies, chief among them was the U.S. has the highest tax code in the world. Not one word to refute the billion lies he managed to spew in his garbage-filled rant.

On MSNBC Live with Scott Thomas.

The media is not Left-wing. It's not even liberal.

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Response to Fantastic Anarchist (Original post)

Sun Jun 11, 2017, 08:44 AM

1. Senator Macaca was on CNN earlier too. nt

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Response to Skidmore (Reply #1)

Sun Jun 11, 2017, 09:14 AM

2. Macaca is still a thing? How is that remotely possible?

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Response to Skidmore (Reply #1)

Sun Jun 11, 2017, 09:21 AM

3. I guess the media has to give alternative facts even airplay.

It's so frustrating.

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Response to Fantastic Anarchist (Reply #3)

Sun Jun 11, 2017, 09:55 AM

8. Either that or he's thinking about getting back into politics.

Wants to raise his head up above the foxhole again.

Trouble is, a "macaca comment" mentality would serve him well in THIS climate.

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Response to calimary (Reply #8)

Sun Jun 11, 2017, 11:30 AM

10. He was there to defend Trump but get all his lies out there, too.

I couldn't believe he want unchallenged on a single thing. I don't know the politics of Scott Thomas, but he let him talk for about five minutes unchallenged. It was cringe-worthy.

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Response to Fantastic Anarchist (Original post)

Sun Jun 11, 2017, 09:37 AM

4. Joe Reid, Maddow and some others dispute these assholes ... reason why they're liked

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Response to YCHDT (Reply #4)

Sun Jun 11, 2017, 11:35 AM

11. Do you know the politics of Scott Thomas?

It shouldn't matter anyway. He should have refuted everything he said. What is the purpose of these types of shows? He just let him talk for about five minutes unchallenged.

Where and how do they get these guests, what credentials do they have, so on and so forth.

No wonder we're a stupid country. We have Fox or the ultra-stupid, which makes MSNBC seem legitimate by comparison.

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Response to Fantastic Anarchist (Reply #11)

Sun Jun 11, 2017, 01:28 PM

15. When they're not pushing the lies themselves

They are just taking notes.

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Response to Proud Liberal Dem (Reply #15)

Sun Jun 11, 2017, 02:10 PM

16. Yep. So true.

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Response to Fantastic Anarchist (Original post)

Sun Jun 11, 2017, 09:39 AM

5. Me too. I am totally sick that this bottom feeder is being paraded on every channel!

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Response to MoonRiver (Reply #5)

Sun Jun 11, 2017, 11:38 AM

12. You saw it, too?

I don't watch on the weekend but happened to catch it on. Somebody needs to let MSNBC know that their a news channel, not a propaganda organ for alternative facts.

I'm too cynical and jaded to do it. I'd rather a restructuring of the whole system anyway.

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Response to Fantastic Anarchist (Reply #12)

Sun Jun 11, 2017, 12:27 PM

14. Yes, I saw him yesterday on CNN and today on MSNBC.

I switched channels both times.

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Response to Fantastic Anarchist (Original post)

Sun Jun 11, 2017, 09:46 AM

6. Don't watch and don't buy. Turn the channel as soon as the bs starts

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Response to judesedit (Reply #6)

Sun Jun 11, 2017, 09:56 AM

9. And let 'em know. Tweet to those shows. Google can show you where to send comments

to each of these shows and networks.

Might seem like an itty bitty thing, but these itty bitty things do add up.

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Response to calimary (Reply #9)

Sun Jun 11, 2017, 11:39 AM

13. That's a good idea.

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Response to Fantastic Anarchist (Reply #13)

Sun Jun 11, 2017, 02:12 PM

17. If you Google their websites, their contact info usually includes a main switchboard.

You can either leave a comment at that level OR ask to be transferred to the News department or PR dept. or some such thing. Or if they have any sort of ombudsman's office.

Whatever the case, they have to at least make a note of it, particularly if you ask them to. If they get a lot of comments on any one topic, that's gonna be noticed and passed at least a little ways up the food chain.

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Response to Fantastic Anarchist (Original post)

Sun Jun 11, 2017, 09:50 AM

7. How did he define it?

Corporate, family, personal. Federal, state, local? Effective, marginal? "Income" or "payroll"? What were his definitions; what were your definitions. It's always struck me as foolish to get mad over my personal interpretation of the words somebody used when he didn't share the meanings I imposed on him. It's like imperialism, but at the individual level, and with language and meaning instead of territory. It's a manipulative tool when used consciously; it's a fallacy, albeit a feel-good fallacy when it's done unconsciously. Then again, who doesn't like playing with and indulging his fallacy? It can be highly satisfying.

Anyway ... Take the wiki entry on US corporate tax. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_tax_in_the_United_States I choose this not because it's a great thing, but because it's a standard thing.

You can read it as saying the US has a very low tax rate (2% of GDP is federal corporate income tax in the US). The trendline for US corporate taxes has a secular trend downward. A lot of things contribute to this. This is just federal income tax, not all taxes; it doesn't include the business-side FICA tax paid for employees. It doesn't consider that profits might be different or calculated differently or that it's shown a steady drop due to increased things like payroll tax paid, both individual and business, or tax credits for corporations, the rise of a lot of small corporations instead of smaller number of large corporations, or even keeping cash offshore. I mean, if you have a profit of $500 million you'd get nailed with the top rate, but if there are 5000 corporations with profits of $100 thousand each, they'd pay a lower rate ... on the same total amount of profit. If you pass dividends through to shareholders like pensions or the wealthy--makes no difference--it's not taxable as profit by the feds as corporate profit. At the same time, often corporations in the US provide services to many employees that they'd be taxed to allow government to provide elsewhere: if we consider tax cuts to be government subsidies to business, shouldn't we consider services business provide that governments should to be business subsidies to government? Then again, we can't forget that the GDP has really increased, and some of it isn't subject to federal taxes--the government comprises a larger share of the economy than it did in the first few years shown on that graph, so "as a percent of GDP" can be a tricky number to understand. So there are reasons for the drop in the rankings, and some of them are things that, if thought about for a second, are not all that bad and others that really are bad. It's not a one-size-fits-all attitude that applies to every bit of the rationale. Collect data, understand data, then form opinion. New set of data? Repeat.

At the same time, the very same wiki entry also says that the US has the 3rd highest marginal federal corporate tax in the world, after Chad and the UAE. But that relies on understanding the difference between marginal and effective taxes, federal versus state/local taxes. High marginal rates drive behavior to keep income below where those rates kick in. It works with individuals, it works with companies. One of the earliest times my father told me off over money was when I went in and bought two 10 cent comic books. He'd given me a quarter. I gave him back the 4 cents change, because there was sales tax. He was mad: If I'd bought first one, the tax would have been less than a cent and wouldn't have been charged. Then I could have bought the second one, and not have paid tax on it. I paid 21 cents instead of 20 cents because I structured the business deal poorly. He was a steelworker and was cranky because he'd pulled the midnight shift, my mother was at work, and he had to take care of a small child after not having slept for almost 36 hours. Even steelworkers with only a high-school diploma understood tax avoidance. And, yes, it was at a point in my parents' life where they did watch, literally, every cent.

Personally, at the risk of slighting Chad and the UAE, I'd consider them insignificant enough to be ignored and say that Wiki supports Allen (whoever he is--never heard the name before). At the same time, the facts support you. Depends on the definitions used and the point to be made: both are true, but neither is false.

Note that if all that money kept offshore were to be returned, that effective rate would be increased quite a bit because a number of corporations would suddenly have that 39.5% income tax rate kick in. Still, the GDP is large enough that the 2% number isn't going to increase much.

As an aside, quite often money kept offshore has paid the income tax due where it's earned and receive a tax credit because of that, with some differences between those countries and what the US allows as far as deductions. It's not like most of that money is "untaxed", which is usually the complete description; what's should be said is that it's "untaxed by US", and instead of just slighting the UAE and Chad we slight Germany and France, as well. Of course, some jurisdictions, esp. some of the poorer circum-US countries, have very low tax rates, but some are respectable. (We'll leave aside that the trillions of dollars are "assets" and not always held in cash, so a fair amount of the "offshored profits" are things like factories and equipment and inventory. How much? Dunno. The people driving the argument have a vested interest in our thinking that it's all illicitly acquired cash, and the more the assets are invested in production facilities, the less useful the number.)

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