General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI hate this place at times like this.
Is it really so hard to just be critical of the act and supportive of the victims?
What is the purpose of making it partisan, or saying it's OK because "they" did it first?
Does it really make you feel better to be that tribal? Aren't we trying to make things better?
gopiscrap
(23,736 posts)the sorry state of our nation makes it needed to be just as shitty and dirty as they are. Democrats need to grow a thicker skin and not give a fuck about offending anyone otherwise we will continue to lose elections
BannonsLiver
(16,352 posts)Zero fucks given about Sandy Hook. Zero fucks given about Pulse. Zero fucks given about anything that runs crossways with their NRA smorgasbord of cash. Glad no one died, but that is the beginning and the end of my empathy for that crowd.
gopiscrap
(23,736 posts)LOL Lib
(1,462 posts)I agree with you on every point. If the shoe were reversed, Repukes would be angry that the shooter didn't actually kill any liberals. They truly want to see all of us dead. So it is hard for me to give a shit about any republican slime.
MGKrebs
(8,138 posts)That is what I am saying. We are who we are. Our response defines us. If we respond the same way "they" would, then we are no better.
This is a tragedy. Whatever battle needs to be fought over this will still be there tomorrow, and we don't even know the story yet anyway. So to try to attach some political significance at this point is just Pavlovian reaction.
atreides1
(16,070 posts)Most of the time we try to do it your way...but the only ones that care are right here! The Republicans don't care, they consider your empathy and compassion as a sign of weakness! And come election time, they won't be telling stories of how compassionate and caring we were...they will convince their base that we are weak, and the weak cannot defend them!!!
You and others like you, are better people...and that's admirable!
I do feel badly for those who were shot, the aides and the police officers...but that's it!!!
MGKrebs
(8,138 posts)If they get violent, we get violent?
If they cheat, we cheat?
If they are racist, we get to be racist?
How can you fight those things if you accept the things you are supposedly fighting against?!
Bettie
(16,086 posts)one guy out of millions got violent. Why? Because he is a disturbed guy, probably.
If they cheat, we root out the cheaters and expose them.
If they are racist, well, they are racist and we do our level best not to be (with varying degrees of success, because we'er humans and not perfect).
What we don't need to do is excoriate ourselves over one guy out of millions.
We don't need to blame every person who ever supported Sen. Sanders in the primary for this one guy's actions.
We don't need to act as if the Republican rep who got shot is some kind of folk hero. He's a guy who was in a place with a disturbed individual who chose to use a gun to try to kill people.
That is not "our" fault. All we owe them is what they give us: vague statements about hopes and prayers. The difference there, is that almost none of us wants to see people killed. Them? Not so much.
Dorian Gray
(13,488 posts)There is tribalism here much the same as there is tribalism on the right wing side. It's gross.
People don't care that other people were shot because it makes a political point.
It's gross.
I have no problem talking about enacting gun laws. Most people I know (conservative or liberal) have been horrified at all the gun violence in this nation. A national dialogue needs to happen where we try to find common ground.
LOL Lib
(1,462 posts)We have been leading by example and it hasn't gotten much traction. Repukes never change until they are directly effected it seems. I know we should detest all forms of violence no matter who it is against. I'm not a perfect person so unfortunately I get frustrated with constantly being told to turn the other cheek. Sometimes I just want the privileged white repukes to suffer the same violence they condone against others.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)mentally ill.
Hope they like that "principle."
Amaryllis
(9,524 posts)Last edited Wed Jun 14, 2017, 05:33 PM - Edit history (1)
deserve; it's about what you believe. I agree with all you say. It has nothing to do with what they do or don't do or what they think or don't think about us. It's about who we are and who we want to be as people, not defined in relation to who THEY are or what they do.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Saboburns
(2,807 posts)I have nothing but empathy and sympathy for the victims. With no buts, no blame
klook
(12,154 posts)not murder and martyrdom.
airmid
(500 posts)to Gabby Giffords call for sympathy and healing, I feel pretty vindicated.
Brainstormy
(2,380 posts)whathehell
(29,065 posts)I, too, am glad none of them died, but yes, they do enable the violence with their rejection of the most common sense gun laws. I remember when Reagan was shot -- I was hoping he'd change on the gun issue after that, bit he didn't. The greedy, souless morons have made us all unsafe.
Dorian Gray
(13,488 posts)the NRA wasn't the bloated behemoth it is today, either.
I'm all in favor of common sense gun laws. That so many states resist them is horrible to me, especially with all the gun violence we have in this country.
whathehell
(29,065 posts)Yes, we certainly do need common sense gun laws..I don't, however, think the "state by state" approach works...Chicago has strict gun laws, but loads of gun crime....Why? They are easily accessible just over the state line in Indiana. It needs to be Federal.
Dorian Gray
(13,488 posts)I live in NYC. I believe (though I don't own guns nor do I want to) that laws differ upstate than they do here. That's a municipality difference. I think common sense national laws about safety and licensing are no brainers. But, apparently, that's a stupid thing to say to much of our country. And that's sad.
SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)MGKrebs
(8,138 posts)We can be tough without seeming to revel in it.
I'm no flower child, but my identity is not so totally wrapped up in being "liberal" or "Democrat" that I can't step back for a few hours and just be human.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Not giving a fuck about offending people is a pretty good way to lose elections. Do you even hear yourself?
Our opponents (with the exception of about 10% of Dick Cheney) are actually human beings. Keeping that in mind, is key to defeating their political agenda, and winning converts.
There's a way to convince conservatives that, for instance, stand to lose everything by the repeal of the ACA, and 'not giving a fuck' isn't the way to communicate with them.
Tribalism will be as much our undoing, as theirs.
Dorian Gray
(13,488 posts)If I don't act like a jerk, they'll do it first?
We aren't 12 years old anymore.
OKNancy
(41,832 posts)It's always been this way though.
Akamai
(1,779 posts)Democratic party without adding an insulting adjective. The Republican leaders since then have piled on the negative adjectives, this to the point that the media don't object to those insults and the American people believe those negative characterizations.
The Republican party has been lying about huge mattters well before Trump appeared.
Response to Akamai (Reply #35)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Else You Are Mad
(3,040 posts)That we should be above such and show we are better than the right.
gopiscrap
(23,736 posts)and fight fire with fire
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Winning is indeed, more important than our own behavior, our ethics and our character in the wee minds of people I habitually avoid.
gopiscrap
(23,736 posts)we gotta quit being a bunch Pollyanna wimps...go for the throat of any conservative...seek to ruin them financially and politically, then when we win, change can happen
MGKrebs
(8,138 posts)There are more possibilities than "Pollyanna wimp" and "winning".
Dorian Gray
(13,488 posts)you won't win. You'll become them.
And it'll be same old, same old.
YUCK.
Jake Stern
(3,145 posts)They're bashing us with brass knuckles while we respond by swatting them with a feather. It's time the Dems fight back.
MGKrebs
(8,138 posts)Saying crap like "they deserve it" is fighting back?
That's crazy talk.
nm
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Have we ALREADY forgotten the quiet dignity that he won with?
Are you suggesting we would have won MORE if we'd fought fire with fire and slung mud, and racism, and hate, just like they did?
Please tell me you're not serious. It's not going to work, and it's totally a-historical. We do NOT win when we get in the gutter. You cannot out-gutter them. You want to engage on a battlefield they built, and own.
Having a spine, standing up to them, shaming them with their own savagery, none of that requires adopting their tactics. If we become them to beat them, why bother winning? Do you want to be them? I sure as fuck don't.
And I won't help you do it.
OriginalGeek
(12,132 posts)Cosmocat
(14,561 posts)Dems absolutely got behind W in the aftermath of 9-11, and the simpleton got his favorability ratings into the 90% range.
Out of the gates, had it happened under Gore, no damn way they got behind him like that, none.
That said, they IMMEDIATELY started their spin of how, despite it being 8 months into his tenure, despite his completely sleep walking through IC warnings, it was in fact Clinton's fault for not getting OBL (when they were all up his ass at the time screaming how his warnings about the dangers of Islamic terrorists were just an attempt to distract from his blow job).
They then spent the next five years using 9-11 as a political sledge hammer, called us "in league with the terrorists" if we questioned anything and screamed about how YOU CAN'T CRITICIZE THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF WHILE TROOPS ARE IN THE FIELD! - a phrase never again repeated after January of 2009.
Benghazi, something that happened literally a dozen times when W was in charge, and they went ape shit and made it into the greatest scandal in history.
All this "hatred" is 90% them, playing it both ways ...
And, is why they have wrestled their way into full control in DC and most of the states.
We ARE "better than them" but that means very little when they use their assholeness to get a vice grip on power.
MGKrebs
(8,138 posts)OK, so let's say we win. But we've done it by doing all the nasty things they do that we say we are against. So then we are suddenly going to change back into our previous selves?
I don't think so.
Cosmocat
(14,561 posts)cause that is what being "better than them" has led to ...
AND, no one is saying being russian bought scumbags, either.
It isn't binary - there is A LOT between where they are and where the Dems are.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)"He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster.
And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee."
SweetieD
(1,660 posts)Well that is what I feel for him. Contempt.
This was a man who praised himself for being David Duke without the baggage. A man who spoke at a white supremacist convention.
I am not aware of all the victims. If some were decent and innocent people who were harmed I feel sorry for them getting caught in the crossfire.
gopiscrap
(23,736 posts)MGKrebs
(8,138 posts)How are you different?
58Sunliner
(4,380 posts)SweetieD
(1,660 posts)There is a power imbalance and no I am not just like him for feeling contempt for him. I have no power over him. The only thing I have to offer is sympathy and I will reserve that for people who aren't using their power to enact policies to hurt me.
MGKrebs
(8,138 posts)Did MLK preach intolerance?
I don't think so.
SweetieD
(1,660 posts)I said I don't have any sympathy for him and I don't.
58Sunliner
(4,380 posts)IronLionZion
(45,411 posts)as far as we or the shooter would have known.
I can disagree with Scalise's political views and generally deplorable behavior without wanting anyone to get shot. Punched in the face maybe, but not shot.
I'm also relieved to see that the shooter was white. It would be worse for us if he was brown/black.
SHRED
(28,136 posts)Their deadly hypocrisy.
And their partisan blame going on right now.
It's called defense.
gopiscrap
(23,736 posts)MGKrebs
(8,138 posts)You don't even really know enough about what happened yet to make ANY kind of statement about it. None of us do.
LongTomH
(8,636 posts)We should not add to the hatred so rampant in the country right now.
freddyvh
(276 posts)addresses mass shootings that happen on a monthly basis and tries to combat them....i will feel no sympathy for them
58Sunliner
(4,380 posts)We are continually held to a different standard, hypocrisy. They are not really that interested in the dead or injured unless they can politically profit off of them. And if they see them as a liability, they will try to discredit them. And I do not see anyone saying "it's ok, they did it first", so part of the premise for your post is false to me.
"Aren't we trying to make things better?"-What does this even mean in the reality of what we have to put up with? Really.
I am surprised it hasn't happened sooner. They are trying to destroy our country, our support, our land, our water-etc,,,,,,,,,,, I don't approve of the act. But if it was politically motivated by years of abuse, then I understand. And that is my opinion.
I don't understand the hate that lots of these right wing killers have used to justify what they do. The lies they spread, the fear they promulgate.
MGKrebs
(8,138 posts)There's no sense in preemptively treating anyone as less than human based on what you expect them to do at some time in the future.
What battle are you fighting exactly?
58Sunliner
(4,380 posts)preemptively treating anyone as less than human-when did I do that?
It isn't a battle, it's a reality based on past behavior. Unless you are referring to the war being waged on people in this country.
MGKrebs
(8,138 posts)"They are not really that interested in the dead or injured unless they can politically profit off of them." That is a broad generalization and therefore lumps together a whole group into one despicable category. Maybe not sub-human but no discernible difference. Using words like "they" dehumanizes whoever you are talking about unless you have defined who you are talking about. "They" is some diffuse boogie-man we don't have to put a face or a name on. Who is "they"? When you make generalizations like that you have to be very careful. It's usually a sign of a cheap way to try to make a point, or inflate it's significance.
My comment was just asking you to define what it is you are suggesting. You seem to be trying to justify some sort of behavior, or at least opposing being sympathetic at this time. But when you generalize about "them" and "they will" then you are into nebulous territory with no meaning. Be more specific and maybe this could be a productive discussion.
I am going to speculate: You get angry when you hear the vicious things some on the right wing say (I do too), especially when it comes from the media and the Repub leadership. But I am saying that being vicious in return isn't a productive response. It's just pseudo-revenge. It doesn't diminish your or my ability to oppose the right wing agenda by taking a moment to be sympathetic to Scalise's family. Our first thought doesn't have to be a calculation of the political advantage or disadvantage. Someone out there will do that of course (media) but that's kind of their job.
Way too long, I probably shouldn't post this but what the hell.
Oneironaut
(5,491 posts)Everybody cares more about if the shooter is a Republican or Democrat than the victims, so that the other party can look bad. It has degraded into a sports team-like fanaticism.
maryellen99
(3,788 posts)MGKrebs
(8,138 posts)I think that sums up my feelings pretty well. But too many skip the first part and go right into the "serves them right" shtick. I doubt there is any battle we want to win where that is a viable tactic.
Tatiana
(14,167 posts)So, while I pray for their complete recovery from this tragedy, I also hope their hearts are changed as a result of what they have suffered.
barbtries
(28,787 posts)CentralMass
(15,265 posts)cwydro
(51,308 posts)And posters happy that the shooter was white.
Gotta bring race into it.
7962
(11,841 posts)onenote
(42,685 posts)There are some posts here today that mirror the kinds of posts made by Freepers after Gabby was shot. Not all. Not even most or many. But even one is too many.
JCanete
(5,272 posts)not good, because Democrats, unlike republicans rely on critical thinkers to support our party, not unapologetic sports-fans. This is murder and terror. We can't decry murder and terror in some circumstances, and then condone it or lessen it in others and expect that to get us to a better place as a society. That will surely devolve us to a point of mindless factionalization.
We can attempt to understand the perpetrator, but should never justify/appreciate/be cold to the victims of/ these kinds of actions,.
elmac
(4,642 posts)that he blamed all the political talk that repug policies are killing ameriKans. Get ready for Dems to be too polite to fight these fascist pigs and repugs using this to push through their murderous policies.
MGKrebs
(8,138 posts)That's a whole different thing and totally appropriate.
sarisataka
(18,570 posts)They are hypocrites, we need to be bigger hypocrites
It's all covfefe...
barbtries
(28,787 posts)and you can trash threads. that's what i do...i have nothing good to say about the congressman who got shot today. doesn't mean i have to pray for him. he'll never say a prayer for me or any of the poor suffering people in his state of LA.
MGKrebs
(8,138 posts)I feel like I want to see it all. I just don't get as emotionally wrapped up in the stupid stuff anymore.
There's another thread about a Rolling Stone interview with Rachel Maddow that is very good, and she talks about detachment like that.
especially on fb. hundreds of them. for some reason it gives me a feeling of satisfaction.
DFW
(54,334 posts)I never know when someone who posts something I consider stupid might post something I consider brilliant.
As for Scalise and the shooter--I don't condone the shooter or even the fact that he had access to a gun. But nor will I weep for Scalise, who has long championed the very sword that struck him. If Scalise's words and votes are to be taken seriously, he himself has far more understanding and sympathy for his assailant than I ever will.
elmac
(4,642 posts)Duncan Grant
(8,262 posts)Thanks for sharing the link. It belongs in this thread.
Pinkflamingo
(177 posts)I believe you can't attempt a mass shooting without having mental illness, be it documented or undiagnosed. Although the vast majority of people with mental illness aren't violent, some are. Still, we seem to expect it and not look very hard for a cure, or a CPR system for mental illness emergencies. Cops just shoot em dead and no one cares. Even though this could have avoided with the proper research and think tank.
flibbitygiblets
(7,220 posts)And to anyone who disagrees, may I suggest instead of infighting, direct your energies toward our congresspeople to enact gun control on people convicted of domestic violence!
If there were ever a chance they'd listen, it might be now...
elmac
(4,642 posts)where dems will be sincere, respectful and non confrontational and repugs will use to push through murderous policies with little trouble. That is just the way it goes.
Deb
(3,742 posts)tends to make up for it, at least for me.
ExciteBike66
(2,319 posts)Their policies make mass shootings easier. In most instances, it is actual innocent people who get hurt, but here the "victims" seem less innocent to me.
Doesn't make the shooting right, but we cannot ignore the reality that Republicans have a hand in creating mass violence when they knowingly allow the tools of same to be purchased willy-nilly...
MGKrebs
(8,138 posts)And yes their policies probably make this sort of thing easier to do. And this is the discussion that should be had. No need to sell our souls in pursuit of winning elections.
elleng
(130,861 posts)I posted an OP on the subject, and am seeing so many negative and partisan posts, I'm thinking of removing it entirely. ( https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029203111 )
SCVDem
(5,103 posts)Did anyone read the comments following the commissioning of the USS Giffords?
Yes, they cheered the shooter and derided Gabby.
But WE are supposed to be civil?
MGKrebs
(8,138 posts)Makes you feel better somehow? Seems to me like all it does is give them further ammunition.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,988 posts)missingthebigdog
(1,233 posts)We don't know what motivated this guy- yet. Unfortunately, the news cycle doesn't really allow us to wait for that information; if we have any chance of minimizing the damage here, we have to get out in front of it. I hope that's what our leadership is doing right now- deciding what the talking points are going to be, and lining up the Sunday show appearances.
What people need to understand is that it is not all that difficult to incite this type of behavior. We just had an election in which candidates from both parties attempted to leverage economic injustice to their advantage. Some people had to believe that meant things were going to get better for them. Now, those people feel betrayed, and hurt, and forgotten by the candidates, the parties, and the country.
All of the time now, I see hopelessness in people. There is no light at the end of the tunnel, no pot of gold. Nobody is coming to save us. These people BELIEVED things would change, and that the change would come fast. They voted for that, whether their ballot was marked for Trump or they wrote in Bernie or voted for Jill Stein (which is apparently what this guy did). Reality persists, and that is beyond frustrating. Having riled up all of these people on the fringes, can we really expect them to sit back and be quiet? I'm honestly surprised we haven't seen many more incidents like this.
To this guy, this is a dire situation which justifies violence and assassination. We created this, and we better figure out a way to own it.
MGKrebs
(8,138 posts)sarge43
(28,941 posts)that they have given to all the other victims of gun violence?
MGKrebs
(8,138 posts)If you want to work for policy change, then work for policy change.
Explicitly or implicitly condoning violence does neither of those things.
7962
(11,841 posts)Like the left doesnt have their own FAR left violent people.
Bless you for making this point; I'm sorry for the hell you're going to catch for posting it!
emulatorloo
(44,109 posts)I find it appalling that some are almost justifying what the shooter did.
nycbos
(6,034 posts)Saboburns
(2,807 posts)I have nothing but Empathy and Sympathy for the victims of this crime. Empathy and Sympathy with no buts, no blame, and no hatred towards the victims.
I cringe when I read some of these comments.
FrankfurtCat
(1,213 posts)"Gabrielle Giffords' Call For Sympathy And Understanding Is Met with...Hate":
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/gabby-giffords-shooting-response-twitter_us_59414537e4b09ad4fbe4a66f
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)ready to kill all health care for 30 million poor men women and children. How many millions of these innocent people, many of them children, will die a horrible and needless death because of these poor fucking republicans?
These are the same scum balls that advocated 2nd amendment solutions against democrats and along with the right wing terrorist front group NRA made it possible for every nutcase in America to be fully armed with deadly military assault weapons.
They should have stopped and thought that out a bit it seems.
Just wait until Trumpcare is sprung on the American public. Gonna be millions of pissed off
and fully armed former Dump voters after they see what their fucking hero did to them.
beaglelover
(3,465 posts)G_j
(40,366 posts)Last edited Wed Jun 14, 2017, 04:53 PM - Edit history (5)
but really, the truth must come before any thought of what team one may be on. In all of these tragic American shootings, discussion comes to bear, IF, as a society we want to even attempt to address these tragedies with the intent of lessening their occurrences.
The elephant in the room most always seems to be the NRA, and they are up their eyes in politics.
nolabear
(41,959 posts)It's disheartening to see people I agree with on many things succumb to meanness and coviction that it's either that or roll over. There are other ways.
I can't get the old adage "An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind" out of my mind these days. We can be better. Else what are we fighting for?
angrychair
(8,690 posts)But some of these people are the same people that belittled, disregarded or even feed the conspiracy of it being fake by not speaking out in regards to Sandy Hook. I can clearly remember them mocking president Obama for crying.
So while I feel for these victims of violence I also recognize that republicans give zero fucks about victims of gun violence, especially if they are Democrats.
Miles Archer
(18,837 posts)Because most of the people here have been critical of the act and supportive of the victims, without burying their heads in the sand and turning a blind eye to how the flames of violence had division have been fanned since Donald Trump declared his interest in running for President.
Keep an eye on Trump for the next few weeks, especially after this act dissipates from the front page and the Mueller investigation intensifies. Then you can tell me why DU is a "partisan tribe."
Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)so it's alright" argument doesn't excuse the lack of empathy shown by some here. But, it is a small minority who continue to "make it partisan", at least among Democrats.
Hopefully, in the real world, Democratic elected officials and leaders from the Democratic establishment continue to support their fellow Americans.
denbot
(9,899 posts)Yeah we should be better at showing sympathy without conditions. Though I've not seen any posts that were OK with an individual gunning down other human beings.