The people who died in the Grenfell Tower were murdered.

[MineralMan]

To save money, exterior cladding for that building was chosen and installed that was not fire-resistant, allowing that fire to overwhelm the building uncontrollably. Whoever made the decision to use that material, rather than the more costly fire-resistant type, should be tried for first-degree murder or whatever the equivalent crime is in the UK. Someone saved money at the cost of 70 or so lives.

In addition, all those who inspected the construction, but who did not stop the work, should be charged with aiding and abetting murder.

Because that tower was home to poor people, rules weren't followed. Because that tower was public housing, inferior materials were used in the remodeling of the exterior. Because that tower was full of immigrants and others who have very little voice, Grenfell Tower burned and those people died.

There are people who made decisions that allowed the fire to occur and spread as it did. They must be called to account for their deliberate sabotage of the construction project. They must.

[spanone]

1. K&R...

[Stuart G]

2. I hope they are charged, but...

It looks like some very well connected people were involved in making the decisions. The current Prime Minister favors the rich. We will see..

[MineralMan]

4. I can't predict what will happen. I can only suggest what should.

Similar situations exist in this country, as well, and in every large city in it. Sprinkler systems are shut down, rather than being repaired. Exit doors are locked by building owners. Fire doors are blocked open, destroying their function. HVAC systems are allowed to fail, so residents resort to space heaters and other heating methods.

If you ever have a chance visit a public low-income housing project and you'll see how poorly managed it is and how much disrepair it is in. We allow all sorts of dangerous situations to exist because the people who live in such projects have no voice at all. Nobody gives a shit.

[raccoon]

10. Speaking of locked exit doors, anyone not familiar with the Hamlet, NC, fire in 1991, check this out

Hamlet chicken processing plant fire

"The Hamlet chicken processing plant fire was an industrial fire in Hamlet, North Carolina, at the Imperial Foods processing plant on September 3, 1991, resulting from a failure in a hydraulic line. 25 workers were killed and 55 injured in the fire, trapped behind locked fire doors. In 11 years of operation, the plant had never received a safety inspection. Investigators believe a safety inspection might have prevented the disaster."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamlet_chicken_processing_plant_fire

[MineralMan]

11. Yes, I remember that. Such things are common.

Even when people notice the problems, and report them, nothing is done. Nobody cares, it seems.

[redstatebluegirl]

3. A friend of mine who is a professor of Construction Management said the same thing last night.

He said that cutting corners is rampant right now, especially in countries with little or no regulation on buildings and maintenance of those buildings. This is what 45 wants here in the US, he hates building regs.

[MineralMan]

6. Similar problems already exist here in public housing.

There are many high-rise projects that are at risk of some similar disaster. They exist in almost every large city. Nobody goes there to inspect them. Nobody cares about the people who live in them.

[redstatebluegirl]

8. Bob told me that as well.

He also said there are hotels in this country he would not stay in due to design or construction flaws that were never inspected. Truth is, nobody cares about anyone anymore, just the money.

[dixiegrrrrl]

42. Turns out now, the cladding was illegal. had been banned in Europe and even here.

Any inspection done properly would have caught that.
And about 30 other similar buildings, owned by for profit contractors as Grenfell was, need to be inspected for the cladding.
( Per The Guardian)

[malaise]

5. More in the line of austerity murders

Rec

[MineralMan]

7. More like greed and unconcern murders, if you ask me.

[malaise]

9. That my brother is the meaning of neo-liberalism - greed on steroids for the 1%

and their tools - hence I called them 'austerity murders'.

[BannonsLiver]

12. Grenfell

[MineralMan]

13. Thank you. I've edited the OP.

I appreciate the correction.

[not fooled]

27. BannonsLiver!!!

Great name!!!!!



Here's a classic for ya:

[link:?1492026148|

[Honeycombe8]

14. Did it violate codes? Or is that cladding allowed in the UK? How did the fire start?

If they were in China, the builders would probably be prosecuted and possibly executed.

[MineralMan]

16. Actually, I do not have that information yet.

I do know that the material used is restricted to buildings less than 30 meters high by the manufacturer. The actual building codes and regulations for that area of London, I don't know.

The problem with the cladding is that it is made up of a sandwich of two layers of thin aluminum on both sides of an insulating material. The material used has a flammable plastic insulating material. A more fire-resistant version of the same material is also available, and should have been used. It costs more, however.

Once the fire started, the insulation material caught fire and the construction let the fire climb rapidly up the walls of the building, spreading on the outside of the building. By the time fire equipment was on the scene, it had already spread over most of the height of the building, and equipment was not up to the task of putting it out.

Had the more fire-resistant material been used on the exterior of the building, the fire would not have spread so quickly on the outside. Of course, as it spread, windows shattered from the heat, allowing the interiors to burn as well.

[Stonepounder]

20. I read somewhere (sorry, can't remember where) that the cladding was NOT approved

for use in the UK. This is what you get from 'austerity'. Of course 'austerity' and 'deregulation' are just code-words for 'give it to the rich'.

But the British, just like the US keep electing Conservative governments and then wonder why, after all the promises, their standard of living keeps going down.

[MineralMan]

21. There are mixed signals about the legality of using that cladding.

I'm not in the UK, nor do I know the rules there.

[Stonepounder]

23. You are correct.

NYT yesterday says cladding was legal in UK.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/19/world/europe/uk-grenfell-tower-london-fire.html?_r=0

The UK gov't claimed it was banned. The Chancellor reported that 2 days ago, per CNN and others.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/18/europe/grenfell-tower-fire/index.html

[Scruffy1]

33. Whether or not it was legally banned is irrelevant to me.

At least in the US codes manufacturers recommendations supersede code if they are more stringent. Even if legal, wrapping any building in polyethylene is plain criminal. I have read reports of building code people trying to contact the May government about these issues and being ignored by these "free market" bozos. The fact that Reynolds recently spun the company that makes it off as a separate entity smells like they wanted to dump the liability for a bad product. Criminals all, but like every disaster, they'll find a scapegoat or two and the money people will be ok.

[EarnestPutz]

15. Strange Priorities

I heard that the exterior cladding was done to improve the appearance
of the building at the behest of nearby property owners, an effort to increase
their property values. I have no doubt that the money could have been
better spent improving building safety, fire and otherwise, for the occupants.
Does anyone know what sort of standard the apartments in the building provided
for the poors?

[Igel]

18. That was one purpose.

But the cladding was insulation. Think "improved energy efficiency", like better home insulation.

[hunter]

19. Yeah, and the deplorable right wingers are making hay of that...

... blaming environmental regulations.

They can fuck themselves with a cholla cactus and go to hell too.

[DallasNE]

17. One More Point

Key word "immigrants". More specifically, many were Muslim immigrants. I read a report that witnesses reported smelling gas. Was the fire set, making this a terrorist act? No proof but some things aren't adding up.

[Ligyron]

25. That is the question I would like answered myself.

Could it have have been just an electrical problem, or careless smokers, etc. igniting gas or was it somehow deliberate and accelerates were used.

We'll probably have to wait awhile to get any answers until after the investigation. The stories that many immigrants and Muslims lived there makes one a bit suspicious.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

29. The gas lines were in the stairwells.

I pray this wasn't an act of terror.

[niyad]

22. k and r

[Saviolo]

24. But the right-wing media in the UK...

Like the Daily Mail and the Sun are focusing on the guy whose faulty fridge (faulty either because he couldn't afford a fully working one, or the building provided a faulty fridge because it was cheaper) sparked the fire, as though he had any culpability whatsoever. More victim blaming. So gross. All in the name of saving money.

I'd like to know how much annual profit the company that built that building makes, as well as the building management company. I wonder how much profit those 70 lives were worth.

[get the red out]

26. Pretty much

What I've been reading basically says people were knowingly left in a tinderbox because they were poor.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

28. been watching Sky News Live stream since the beginning.

Hundreds of buildings in the UK have the same cladding. It was recently installed for energy efficiency. So this tragedy is the,horrific warning about other would be disasters.

The testing if the cladding was not thorough. They admit that. Calling it murder can only cause more civil unrest. These tower blocks are not desirable in any way. I hope the government will put things right for those who survived, the families of those who lost their lives and the thousands still living in fire traps.

[smirkymonkey]

30. It's all so tragic - I can only think of how trapped and horrified those people felt

in their last moments. This situation brought up memories of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory in NYC back in the early 20th Century. Almost all the employees were immigrants and safety measures were neglected due to greed and lack of concern for the workers. The fire led to legislation to improve worker safety standards and and led to the growth of the ILGWU which fought for better working conditions for sweatshop workers.

If anything good can come out of this, hopefully it can be better safety standards for immigrant and low-income housing in the UK and hopefully nothing like this will ever happen again.

[OnlinePoker]

31. Killed in the name of energy conservation, not austerity.

Cladding used to make Grenfell Tower a ‘green building’ may have accelerated spread of fire

Construction and fire experts have warned of the dangers of covering the exterior of buildings with types of panels, some of which have been banned in the US under certain circumstances.

The government’s building safety experts warned last year that pressure for the country to meet its energy efficiency goals meant more buildings are being wrapped in materials that could go up in flames.

Cladding used to make Grenfell Tower more sustainable may have helped the fire spread so quickly.

http://www.scmp.com/news/world/europe/article/2098605/cladding-used-make-grenfell-tower-green-building-may-have

[Scruffy1]

35. I am not buying that.

There are plenty of more fire resistant options and it looks to me the decision to reclad the building was more about making it look better than energy effeciency. The small amount of insulation value is so negible it is not even mentioned in their brochures. It was all about giving the wealthier people around there less of an eyesore.

[whopis01]

39. To blame this on energy conservation is misleading

It is true that cladding was used to make the building more energy efficient. However a choice was made to not use a fire resistant cladding. That choice was made for economic reasons, not environmental ones.

There are plenty of people trying to spin this story into an "environmentalism killed people" headline. But that is far from the truth.

[JoeStuckInOH]

32. Did the use of that material meet building codes?

If it did, then I don't fault the builders or owners.

If it did not then there will be hell to pay for several people.

[Cattledog]

34. De-regulation is the new face of construction in the US.

Matter of time till it happens here.

[barbtries]

36. i think that is an appropriate conclusion.

greed kills.

[stollen]

37. This reminds me of the RI fire several years ago

Lots of people were punished, but the company that installed the highly flammable acoustic foam got hit for millions.

If the material used on the tower was legal, then how many other buildings are disasters waiting to happen?

[Blue_Roses]

38. I remember that and that came to mind

when hearing about the Grenfell fire. The RI fire was horroble too. Just breaks my heart.

[Quayblue]

40. K&R

[clementine613]

41. More bodies to add to the Trump count...