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Rant: "People who work for a living; people who take a shower after work"...WTF is that?
Well, this comment by Tim Ryan certainly was not cool. IMHO.
Rant: "People who work for a living; people who take a shower after work"...WTF is that?
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/6/22/1674412/-Rant-People-who-work-for-a-living-people-who-take-a-shower-after-work-WTF-is-that
By Chitown Kev
Thursday Jun 22, 2017 · 9:50 PM CST
336 Comments (336 New)
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I come from a "blended" family of blue-collar folk, white collar folk, and professionals. Contrary to Mr. Ryan's opinion, every last one of them in all economic classes took showers after work.
I just happened to catch Tim Ryan’s interview with CNN’s Don Lemon last night and...even more so than his comments about Nancy Pelosi, the particular comment in the headline pissed me the fuck off.
First of all, Ryan is from Ohio and I’m from Michigan...’Nuff said on that...but let’s get to the comment in question.
His comment here valorizing blue-collar workers ticked me off...
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PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,848 posts)Okay, so I'm retired, but even back in the day I showered in the morning, not after work.
Not that time of day you shower should matter to anyone else.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)You go for 12-16 hours without a shower THEN drive into work? Who does that LOL
Hekate
(90,645 posts)...go to work.
To people who say a shower wakes them up in the morning, I say it makes me late to work and the kids don't get breakfast.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)and I sleep until the last possible moment. Sometimes I do shower in the morning, but if I shower at night I just do a little bird bath in the sink and I'm all set to go in much less time.
Honestly, I really hate showering. I do it as part of the social contract, but I really just hate the whole grooming routine entirely. I find it tedious. Still, I do it, but I love rainy weekends when I can just stay in and avoid it all.
Lucinda
(31,170 posts)
usedtobedemgurl
(1,137 posts)and I do not blow dry it. It takes a couple of hours to dry it. I take a shower at night.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)factories...the working class. I am surprised that you guys don't know that. I lived all over as Dad and Mom were Navy but my Dad was born in Chicago. MY Mom was born in Virginia. And I have lived in Wisconsin and now Ohio...lived all over even as an adult...going to new job when GM plants closed...one by one. NO one knows if Lordstown will survive. They need a third shift to attract a new product in 19...and if it goes this areas is screwed. Hubs managed to hang on for his thirty and we took a buy out as pensions are not worth the paper written on.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)now. Those people who never had pensions or buy outs.
And the GOP acts like they don't exist.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)We say in autos...should have stood up for steel...and we should have. The prosperity of this country went down the tubes when companies were allowed to move jobs overseas and other countries were allowed to dump on our markets...but we want cheap widgets you say...well consider all those folks who talked about how the foreign cheaper cars were so great and now can't afford any new car. Cheap shit from overseas cost way more than the price on the ticket. It cost us healthcare for millions, decent retail wages (yes it is related), people's retirement and now younger workers get no pensions and for what... to enrich a few Romney types and monsters like Trump. We sacrificed our prosperity for cheap shit. Everything that has followed has been a result of this...consider retail wages and benefits have been going down for years...and we are losing way too many jobs. Factory jobs support on average 11 jobs including retail jobs. It is one of the reasons retail is in trouble that and the internet has hurt them too. We used to be a nation where workers had power to negotiate their work: safety,wages and benefits. Now we are a nation that is told how lucky we are to have any job-no matter how shitty. That is unacceptable to me.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)I think that was the anti corporate thing gone overboard
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)And it saved this area too...I also think it helped get us out of the terrible recession...cash for clunkers was smart to. Every auto job supports 11 jobs...and that means when they lose jobs, everyone does.
Hekate
(90,645 posts)...he failed to deliver on the unicorns he didn't promise.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)credit given for saving factory jobs? Don't get it?
Hekate
(90,645 posts)...and Uncle Sam got paid back.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Because they didn't want to give Obama any credit.
For them it was an extension of the anti Wall St talking points... which also ignored the little guy in a lot of ways. Revolution my patootey.
former9thward
(31,981 posts)The Congressional Budget Office said the bailout cost the government 34 billion due to the government being stuck with stock which was never going to be worth what the government paid for it. Page 5 of their report.
https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/111th-congress-2009-2010/reports/03-17-tarp.pdf
Ilsa
(61,694 posts)Too many other jobs would have been lost, not directly GM.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)as well.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)They're under compensated.
Chuuku Davis
(565 posts)They are compensated according to supply and demand
And demand is lessening
Have you seen the McDonalds kiosks
They get the order right
No health insurance
No calling in sick
No overtime
Many food service jobs are going the way of the buggy whip
My local credit union branch had 22 employees 10 yrs ago
They now have 5 thanks to tech efficiency
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)
DK504
(3,847 posts)and I will take another one after I come back from workout...so FU Tim Ryan.
sarcasmo
(23,968 posts)
csziggy
(34,136 posts)You cannot be out in summer heat mowing dusty pastures, or grooming horses, or shoveling shit, or throwing hay up onto trailers then winching the hay up into a loft and not be filthy dirty by the end of the day. There were days when I was too dirty to go into the house so I would hose off before I did. The worst was the day I had to deliver a premature foal and ended up covered with amniotic fluid and feces. Yeah, most days I took showers after work before i could eat dinner. Some days I took more than one shower - some were just the above mentioned hose to get the first layer of sweat and filth off.
Those kinds of jobs - and many others, such as manufacturing - require a shower at the end of the work day. Hell, those coal miners Dolt45 loves so much probably take showers after work in the mines.
Real manual labor requires showers after work.
madokie
(51,076 posts)Interspersed with time in the pool. when I get all hot and sweaty I shower and hit the pool
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)who think that they're the only people on earth who work - everyone else is a freeloader, especially those black and brown people who stole all of their opportunities through affirmative action and welfare.
Shame on you, Tim Ryan.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)My son worked at Lordstown on the line; he is now laid off...he is not a bigot and strongly supported first Bernie and then Hillary. Stereotype much? you have no idea what has happened to the Mid West. We have lost so many jobs and not just the mid west either...you travel this country and see miles of shuttered factories where people used to make a good living. And, it is true that unless we find a way to attract Ohio, Michigan and Wisconsin voters (and other states) in presidential elections, we are screwed...so a little respect would be appreciated and maybe stop with the name calling. You know people post those sort of statements on right wing websites. Most are loathe to vote for those whom they believe hold them in contempt. We have never won without Ohio...save one time when the VP on the GOP side was from Ohio..during Roosevelt's time.
pnwmom
(108,976 posts)people who think that the only kind of real work is blue collar work.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)gets much of his support from the union guys. My daughter who just got her first accounting job will make less than her brother who worked at GM Lordstown did. She has an accounting degree. You shouldn't lump everyone together. We need the rust belt...now I don't even speak to those that I know are bigots...and with a daughter dating a young man of color, and the other daughter (lesbian) dating a woman...they don't like me anyway. But you know in GM they hire those who get out of prison for non-violent crimes, they have iron clad rules against bigotry and sexism too...and you will be fired if you engage in it. Ryan is endangered no doubt with the layoffs...thousands out of work. That being said, he will not be successful by attacking Democrats and needs every vote he can get. It is also a cynical and opportunistic thing to do. I have called his office and complained and will do so again.
kcr
(15,315 posts)I think you can tell the difference between a pol who gets it and one who is simply pandering by how they talk about the issue. If they sound like a little kid talking about some fantasy TonkaTown where everybody Builds It! and lives happily ever after (showering twice a day, like real workers!) then they're pandering. Because the reality is downtowns that are half boarded up, empty rusted out shops (a boon for filmmakers, they make great props!), schools that are closed, people who are desperate to learn new skills and move to where the jobs are. They need people who understand that reality.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)The GOP will lie to them over and over. We will never have an economy that works by selling hamburgers to one another ...and why pray tell can't jobs come back when the jobs exist...but corporations are manufacturing overseas for cheap wages...seems to me the jobs could come back if there was the will to address bad trade deals and maybe institute a few gasp tariffs for those countries that screw us such as Japan and Korea. The Democratic Party would do well to figure out how to do that...they would be elected for life if they did. It would be as it was in the days of Roosevelt. New factories can be built...with a manufacturing plan and government support. Now retail is going away...millions work in retail...exactly how do you think this country can survive continual job losses?
A shrug of the shoulder and a 'these jobs are not coming back' won't cut it. You know the old saying...first they came...well it could be rewritten as follows. First they cam for the steel industry, then the garment industry, then the electronic industry, then the auto industry. Retail is going down now which has little to do with trade but still hurts this country. Soon it could be your job, as white collar jobs are being shipped overseas or turned over to H1B1 visa workers...the jobs are not coming back may have a more personal meaning to you at some point'. And for those of you who are retired...you should consider what it would have meant to you during your working years to have this sort of environment. And that you will lose your benefits if there are no good paying jobs to keep social security and medicare afloat. Bad economic policy does spark revolution but not a Democratic revolution, but rather a fascist one often based on hatred of the perceived 'other' ( designated scapegoated which today means illegal workers). You want to save this country...so do I . We won't do it without a jobs program...which includes manufacturing as well as other jobs.
haele
(12,647 posts)It doesn't help when "leadership" is valued by how much money is made, where patronage is more important than a family. It's not shrugging ones shoulders to admit that the jobs aren't coming back.
What's troubling is that politicians like Ryan are more interested in their own positions than they are about governance. Dividing us between stereotypes - between "salt of the earth" workers and "educated" elitists is doing neither any favors. I rail against Limosine Liberals and their bigoted politics all the time, and this type of "Folksy" Keep the Status Quo politician is just as bad.
Look, employment and opportunity problems are systematic issues. They always has been, because people are hierarchal herd animals, and like to be comfortable surrounded by others like them.
Those socialist, elitist, educated rabble rousers that the rust belt now despises were the basis between the rise of the Unions and FDR's New Deal, all major efforts in addressing the economic disparity and social gaps between the reinters (investors and landlord class), the professionals (business and professionals), and general labor (the majority of the Citizenry).
If you spoke the Labor Democrats of the 1950's and 1960's in these manufacturing areas, they'd joke about the pointy-headed college liberal types, but they could appreciate the progress liberals had been bringing them, and most of them had an expectation that their kids would have a choice to go into the factories and farms like their dads, or maybe go to college and become one of those educated elites that didn't have to work so physically hard to make a good living. Hell, my Grandfather worked in a Pennsylvania coal mine when he was 13.
He left to go to college, thanks to the Union job he and his dad had, and Union support - two of his brothers continued to work the mines, made pretty good money on their Union jobs, but still died in their 50's. Grandfather moved to California, became a volunteer Labor Democrat precinct head, had a good career and retirement, and lived to be 99. Growing up, I heard a lot of stories about Labor, race relations, economics and politics of the 1930's through 1950's from him and my Dad as Dad was getting his Poly-Sci and Education degrees.
Old School Democrats. They understood that progress requires a Coalition, and a lot of negotiation and airing of grievances along the way.
Anyway, by driving an emotionally-based wedge the policy makers - "the educated elite" and the people who actually do the work, it ensures that there's a large number of people who will always be stuck on the bottom, angry and "left behind" to be exploited.
Nancy Pelosi has her faults. I'll have no problems telling her that to her face.
But there's a reason why the liberal states that make just as much investment in their people as they do businesses have greater social mobility and opportunities for progress. To go forward, both have to be hand in hand.
If you pander, patronize, infantilize one, the other will just run roughshod over the one you're pandering to. Makes me wonder what Tim Ryan's schtick is actually covering.
Haele
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)Trump took Trumbull country and thousands of auto workers are laid off.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)
Moostache
(9,895 posts)I am not trying to be snide or take cheap shots here, but you don't sound like you understand that international corporations are largely driving the money around the global board and it does not go where it will do the most good for you, me or any specific individuals or communities...it goes where they will get more for themselves and less for ANYONE else.
"jobs" is a meaningless canard and "good, manufacturing jobs" is another way of saying "jobs that good people like YOU should have but that have been denied to you by <insert target minority / out group here>". The issue has been politicized and weaponized for sure, but what is the true root cause for the hollowing out of American manufacturing? It is capitalism itself. Capitalism without tightly maintained regulation through government and unions is a freight train run amok. The jobs are no longer just being sent out to the other countries with lower wages...I know from first hand experience that automation and robotics are taking more jobs now that ever before, and it is a trend that is NOT slowing down.
I work in a medical device manufacturing company. I joined this company 10 years ago and our annual demand was around 40 million units per year. Our factory runs 24/7 and has a full production floor spread across multiple, over-lapping shifts. When I started, the shifts would all be 25-30 people strong, except for the weekend evenings, where a lot of the PM and cleaning was scheduled and fewer people were needed. Enter a surge in demand, we now are selling upwards of 125 million units a year and project to hit 200 million by the end of the decade. You would think that explosive sales growth like that would indicate massive hiring increases, right? Wrong. Automation of several steps of the process has meant that while output is stratospheric and rising, and demand is rising and forcing us to expand capacity again, the number of jobs is NOT rising with it. The total number of people per shift is DOWN to about 20-25 people, while output is maxing out at about 12 million units per month. In fact, we employee more engineers and research chemists to troubleshoot the production and improve efficiency and outputs than we do new line workers for the "good manufacturing jobs".
This is a company that treats employees fairly, provides a lot of jobs in the USA (despite being a foreign owner multinational) and does a tremendous amount of good in the community and across the globe. I am proud to work here and take added satisfaction from the fact that the product of our collective efforts saves lives across the world daily. But even, here, in a situation that is NOT looking to intentionally exploit workers or ship manufacturing jobs overseas, the situation is long term reductions in manpower in favor of increased use of automation. Our next production line is already in planning and pre-construction to meet the growing demand, but it is going to feature increased automation and out put with even fewer human inputs and line workers.
The point is, the idea that "making something in the USA" is going to be a Renaissance of manufacturing jobs is a falsehood, told to people as lies meant to manipulate them and make them nostalgic for a long-lost / never-was "good old days". The real problem society faces is far more insidious than just getting jobs back...it is wealth distribution and rising inequality that makes society more and more stratified year by year. It is capitalism run amok that leads to a CEO making 1,000 X the annual wage of the worker producing the good or service. It is capitalism run amok that leads to "externalities" like waste disposal and contaimination being sloughed off the corporation and onto the community that gives then "tax breaks" and "concessions" to "compete" for the factory in their area. It is the investors that no longer give a damn about the overall health of the corporation as long as the quarterly projections are beat for the next 90 days.
Companies that were once built with the idea of being around for 90 YEARS are now selling their souls and the very people that form the corporation's guts in the first place out based on the next 90 DAYS. This trend is irreversible without government action. The republicans KNOW this...they are doing yeoman's work for their paymasters. The democrats like Ryan fake it. They don't have a clue what to do or how to talk about it to people without being demagogued from the right and made to look like fools.
The first step to getting out of a hole? STOP DIGGING.
Capitalism is digging our collective grave with the current trajectory of the global economy.
The only way to get out of this hole is to first, take the shovel, break it and stop digging.
Then, and only then, can we start to have REAL discussions about what a post-job economy really looks like and what do people do in such a world. We are so far away from ready to have that earnest and necessary discussion that I think it is far more likely we will simply have a huge nuclear war and hope that something survives to start over...
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)manufacturing base...Germany, Italy, France for starters...and Look at Korea they take no US autos but dump on us...it is stupid to give away your manufacturing...Boeing is move jobs abroad ...It is stupid and will destroy this country, but first will take down the Democratic Party if they don't consider jobs.
tonyt53
(5,737 posts)The cost of steel pipe is going to go through the roof just as soon as those tariffs are placed on foreign pipe coming into the US. The few US companies that manufacture that same type of pipe will raise their prices to just under, or equal to what the foreign pipe costs. The US companies will make more profit, but in no way will that equate to American workers getting a better wage. Many of the US companies that made pipe were sold off to foreign interests. An entire structure of pipe manufacturers would have to start from scratch. Ain't gonna happen. Oh, and those trade deals? Who is telling you they are bad? The US IS getting something equal in return.
Roosevelt did it with a New Deal. Obama tried a baby New Deal and was hammered by the GOP then and still now. The US economy had slowed considerably and the Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. That got the US moving again.
It wasn't regulations that made the pipe manufacturing leave the US. It was cheap labor - plain and simple. Oh, and every heavy manufacturing facility utilizes steel pipe.
The Obama instituted a massive jobs retraining program in 2009 for people that lost their jobs. Sadly. most of the people that sought the retraining gave up very quickly. They had no "want to" - and more importantly, no education, which mage something new very scary to them. I am a rep for a building trades union apprenticeship committee. Starting pay is about $17 per hour with benefits totaling about another $18 per hour. Journeyman is double the wage. The applicant pool gets slimmer and slimmer every year. An applicant does not have to have training in the field. There are no maximum age restrictions. What gets many applicants is that they have to pass a pretty simple skills-type test (math, reading comprehension, and an ability to take direction. Half of the applicants can't make the bare minimum score.
Bringing back manufacturing to the US is not even remotely as simple as some may want to believe. But it sure as hell isn't going to happen with the GOP running every state and the US government.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)I don't say bringing back good paying manufacturing jobs everywhere is easy but it must be done if we are going to solve income inequality and go back to workers having safety rights even..not to mention other rights. There literally was a woman crushed to death in a Hyundai/Kia parts plant in the South. Safety is not a priority. She is not the only one either. There are machines with keys...they have to be cleaned, you enter the machines when you clean them or sometime for other reasons like maintenance. You have a key which makes sure the machine cannot be turned on. At GM if you don't use your key, you will by fired most likely...Everyone gets a key. At the Hyundai/Kia parts plant they did not give them keys or train them properly and this young woman about to be married was crushed to death. One of the posters on DU was praising the car they help make there, and it made me sick. If Democrats can't see the true price of outsourcing who will and the importance of unions who will?
Most of the issues affecting us in a negative way can be traced back to the loss of well paying jobs. And now even the shitty jobs are disappearing. You all talk about how the left won't show up and we need unity blah blah. WE do and everyone needs to show up. But you ought to be concerned about lifelong Democrats in Ohio, Pennsylvania and other places not showing up as well. I understand that the GOP are monsters and will always vote Democratic. And this shitty Trump health bill should motivate voters here in Ohio...but this is an issue that must be addressed if Democrats are to be competitive in the rust belt moving forward. There is a feeling here that the Democrats didn't have our backs when NAFTA was passed and other agreements. While thousands of workers are on laid off here, the Cruze Hatchback is made in Mexico. We have to win some of these states. We have never won the presidency without Ohio, but once when the GOP VP nominee was from Ohio during Roosevelt's time. Creating good paying manufacturing jobs and other jobs in the 21st century is very important and should be a priority.I was excited when Perez was elected DNC chairman;he has worked with unions. outsourcing and H1B1 visas are the main source of income inequality. Both have led to a rush to the bottom in terms of wages and benefits...and having a $15.00 minimum wage is only a start.
pnwmom
(108,976 posts)not to decrease that spending, as the Republicans are.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)If your son isn't a white working class bigot, I clearly wasn't talking about him.
melman
(7,681 posts)That old game. 
pirateshipdude
(967 posts)
whathehell
(29,067 posts)Twelve Million Trump voters voted for Obama in 2012.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)whathehell
(29,067 posts)
DBoon
(22,356 posts)Who work in air conditioned offices, have college degrees, and maybe voted for Hillary.
White collar work isn't "real" work to these people, despite all the hours put in the cubicle farm they think it is some kind of welfare.
doc03
(35,325 posts)side by side with many black people. Don't make that some kind of racist bullshit.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)If you're not a white working class bigot, I wasn't talking about you.
doc03
(35,325 posts)blue collar workers under the bus then call us white working class bigots because they don't support Democrats.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)As I've already twice made clear, I did not call white working class bigots. If I referred to "suburban working class women," would you assume that I was claiming that all suburban working class people are women? Of course you wouldn't. So why do you insist on accusing me of calling all white working class people bigots when I referred to "white working class bigots?" You seem hellbent on scraping your way into a category I did not apply to you.
Notwithstanding your insistence on playing the victim, the Democrats aren't losing elections because they are "throwing blue collar workers under the bus." The working class - at least the white working class - are the most catered to and coddled constituency in the country. In my view, the Democratic Party spends entirely too much time and effort chasing around after white working class voters who vote Republican, not because of any economic insecurity but because they resent the fact that they have to share the Democrats' big tent with people they disdain. And those people will only vote Democratic if the party throws black and brown and female people under the bus.
And I suspect for every blue collar worker who is bitching and moaning that they're not getting enough attention from the party that consistently kisses their asses only to have them spit right back in our faces, there are three other Democrats who will walk away from the party if it decides to throw our most loyal and consistent voters under the bus in order to get the votes of people who want nothing to do with them.
DefenseLawyer
(11,101 posts)But constantly calling poor white people bigots isn't productive. I'm just not sure how talking to the concerns of poor people became equated with "kissing their asses". Maybe you can't, but I know I can talk to lots of people and find common ground and I assure you I've never kissed anyone's ass or sacrificed my principles to do so. You might want to work on it.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)To spare the feelings of the bigots next door neighbor, and yes some bigots too. They don't like to be called out for it. It's not MY fault some areas (probably in every state) have problems with bigots, and I'm not going to be silent about it. Not after the Obama years, not after what Hilary went through. Nope. Your asking the base to sacrafice for a minority of people that literally hate them. You go make friends if you want. They hate me. Don't ask me to accept that or pretend it's not so.
DefenseLawyer
(11,101 posts)and saying poor whites are all bigots? Or even, that we must assume a poor white person is a bigot until he or she proves otherwise? It's not much different than saying "Jews are greedy" or any other stereotype. No one is being pollyanna, there are a lot of bigots in the world. But I assure you that all poor white people do not hate you. Most people are just trying to get by. Most poor white people didn't vote for Trump. They didn't vote for anybody. They are just trying to get by.
Beyond that, what is the sacrifice? Just what is being sacrificed? There is this assumption by the entrenched followers of identity politics that you can't address the needs of the "working class" or rural voters without sacrificing something for the "base". No one ever explains what that is. You think that to be for a higher minimum wage and fair trade policies we have to abandon civil rights? I just don't see it.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)"Cultural anxiety" was stoked and too many knowingly voted for a bigot. Let's not cuddle them and lie about that. Let's not pretend we are intolerant for not looking the other way and burying it.
And what is this sneering about "identity politics"? Since when is that kind of crap liberal? Do you also use SJW as a pejorative?
DefenseLawyer
(11,101 posts)And I'm not saying you're not. I would say that in my opinion being angry and condescending probably isn't the best political strategy, but since your approach seems to be carrying the day, I guess we will see how it plays out.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Like that? Why preach people should ignore it- possibly because it doesn't directly effect you? That's usually the case whenever someone gives this sort of "advice" couched as "strategy".
How about YOU stand up with us instead? Why aren't YOU doing the right thing? What the hell is stopping you from being an ally? Shame on you. Seriously.
DefenseLawyer
(11,101 posts)The 2nd mistake, which leads directly from the first, is to think that the only way to appeal to poor white voters is to embrace bigotry. It's just nonsense. I will say again: most poor whites didn't vote for Trump. They didn't vote. I'm never going to give bigotry or racism or sexism or hate the time of day. But I'm here to tell you that I talk to a lot of poor white people and they can be reached without appealing to bigotry. Honest.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)DefenseLawyer
(11,101 posts)All right then. Problem solved. Good night and good luck.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)While painting liberals as the intolerant ones? This is exactly what RWers do. Go away with that shit, I'm embarrassed for you. You want to go out of your way to not offend people who think women and POC are second class citizens have fun- but stop insisting that we join you. Knock yourself out, but the base of this party is women and POC and your not leading us, so get over yourself.
DefenseLawyer
(11,101 posts)You just said that "no one is saying that all poor whites are bigots" and then immediately you say there is no way to talk to poor whites without making women and people of color second class citizens. If that is your position it would appear that your first assertion can't be true. I'm certainly not saying anyone should cater to bigots. What I'm saying is there are lots of poor white people out that don't fit your stereotype. You should get out more.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)I'm sorry but you're fighting on the wrong side. When you frame shit exactly like RWers that should give you pause.
DefenseLawyer
(11,101 posts)News flash: most people don't have "cultural anxiety". At this point you are just being obtuse. Have a nice day.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)wingmen to those who are - jumping in to shut down every discussion about race and racism with cries of "stop calling me a racist!!!" when no one was even talking to or about them and then insisting that we must never ever ever say anything that might possibly offend a bigot because, if we do, they might not vote Democratic - when their bigotry (not the bullshit excuse of "economic insecurity"
is the main reason they don't vote for Democrats in the first place.
Tribalist wagon-circling at its finest. Apparently, you don't have to be a bigot to want to protect them from the rest of us.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)"Cultural anxiety" has played in the past year- impossible to discuss Hillary's loss with any honesty. But of course they want to discuss OTHER issues instead. It's as transparent as telling people to get in the back of the bus. Nope.
DefenseLawyer
(11,101 posts)Serious question.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)As silly as it sounds to be telling someone that I know white people - most black people know plenty of white people since we don't have the luxury of going through life limiting our interactions to people who look like us, so we usually don't have to resort to the "some of my best friends are white" justification for our views - I'll tell you that I have many white friends of all socio-economic classes. In fact, I have several (at least a couple dozen right off the top of my head) in my family. Most of my white family are middle-class, but several are working class and a few are poor.
Now I'll return the question. Do you have any black friends? I don't mean black people you happened to work with. I mean black people who come to your home when you have a few friends over, whose homes you've socialized in more than once, who would call you for help if their kid was stuck on the side of the road with a flat tire.
If so, have you ever discussed race with them? Have they shared any of their experiences with you?
DefenseLawyer
(11,101 posts)was not to be cute or to make some silly supposition that a black person doesn't know any white people or vice-versa. It's really more about the poor part than the white part anyway. But what I would ask, since you are friends with and interact with poor white people, are they all bigots? Are they all hardcore Trump supporters? That may certainly be your experience. And, if they are not, why do you assume that most poor white, other than the ones you know, are hardcore racists that will only vote Republican? I am not in ANY way trying to suggest that racism doesn't exist or it's no big deal or that as people or a party we would coddle racists to get votes. I just think it's wrong to start from the position that poor whites are a "lost cause"; that they are a monolithic, red hat wearing band of white supremacists. Statistically, most poor people don't vote at all. I think there are plenty of poor people that we can reach and we don't have to resort to fear and race baiting and nonsense to do it.
And since you asked, yes, "some of my best friends are black" including the best man at my wedding. And I have lots of discussions about race with my friends. Again, I am not some pollyanna. I fight racist cops every day.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)any further discussion with me.
You appear to be a literate person, so it is inexplicable that you seem to be having such difficulty comprehending my posts, which not only have NEVER claimed that all poor white people are bigots but have explicitly told you several times that I have not said nor do I believe any such thing. Yet you continue to repeat this lie for some reason.
So I am finished with this discussion with you since I'm not going to waste any more of my time engaging with someone who as disingenuous or as clueless as you. Take your strawman and throw it in front of someone who doesn't know any better.
DefenseLawyer
(11,101 posts)It has been repeated ad nauseam that any appeal to working class whites is an appeal to racism and would necessarily come at the expense of our position of strength with women and minorities. They are all "deplorables" and they hate us and it's a waste of time to even engage them. If that's not your position then you need to do a better job of stating your position, I guess.
I don't know why you have chosen to take such a nasty tone with me and call me a liar, but that is certainly your prerogative, although ad hominem attacks often indicate that one's argument has failed; and as for your declaration that I am not worthy of further discussion, trust me, I think I'll survive. Have a nice day.
Response to doc03 (Reply #105)
EffieBlack This message was self-deleted by its author.
XRubicon
(2,212 posts)kcr
(15,315 posts)And it's phony as hell. Every time I see this type of pandering, the bullshitter couldn't look more like an elitist fool in my eyes, with their fetishizing blue-collars to score political points. That is one righteous rant. I grew up in Flint Michigan. I knew people who worked at the shops; my dad did. But I also had family who were teachers, clerks, nurses, worked at the mall, worked at McDonalds, worked at a nursing home. They were all hard workers.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)I called Ryan as I am very angry...his office gave me the usual bullshit. I had called them early on when he said he would work with Trump...and his office said he would for the good of the country. But Nancy stopped that didn't she? Thank God. He feels that Pelosi will energize voters against him, and he would really like to be speaker. I am angry. If he is primaryed, I would have a hard choice. Incumbents have an easier time and we could get a Repug with a new person running...well I always vote Democratic so whoever runs in the election gets my vote.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)if you are from Michigan. I am angry with Ryan, but to be fair, he has helped many folks...like the Delphi employees (management) who lost their pensions...he got them something. He visits the union halls regularly and hangs out with the guys. My son who is a young GM worker (doubt he will make the cut this time) likes him...and he can spot a phony a mile away. You saw what happened in Michigan when the factory jobs were lost. The same thing happened here ...and everywhere in the Mid West. When I drove from Wisconsin to Ohio after the Janesville plant closed, I wept when I saw Gary Indiana. There are nicer third world countries. We have had some success here...Cleveland has come back and is not called the 'mistake by the lake' anymore. But jobs are important and if we concentrate on bringing jobs back everywhere and health care, I believe we could sweep the coming elections. Sadly Hillary Clinton had a pretty good plan, but we got Drumpt the moron instead.
kcr
(15,315 posts)Because yes, Demsrule. I'm perfectly aware as I witnessed it all firsthand. Tim Ryan needs to stay in his wheelhouse and help where he can. But he won't because he's an opportunist apparently.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)because of the Lemon interview. He is behaving as an opportunist, but has been there for this district in the past. I am very angry with him, and I believe he endangers himself with these comments. But lets not throw, the working people like my son under the bus...the union worked very had here to elect Clinton. My son was a Bernie supporter and then voted for Hillary. My daughter is going to marry a very nice young man of color...we are not all bigots here in Ohio and it pisses me off when we are painted that way. Some of the posts here are insulting and will get posted on various rightie websites as proof that we are the party of 'liberal elites'...of course that is a lie,but it has an influence. Right now, some are beginning to wake up. At a church festival last week, a gentleman who was a strong Trump supporter(had an argument with him in church during the campaign!) expressed doubts. Kasich expanded Medicaid and is against the GOP bill...we can take Ohio back but not with insults and ridicule... as I said, thousands of auto workers are laid off which endangers Ryan. His behavior is inexcusable however and doesn't improve his prospects.
kcr
(15,315 posts)I don't understand. You seem to be upset by his pandering, but also upset at those calling him out for it.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)he hates Speaker Pelosi. What I am upset about is painting guys who work in factories or similar jobs as bigots and frankly losers...the unions were the biggest supporters of Democrats for years...even as they watched their jobs shipped overseas...and they don't deserve such scorn.
kcr
(15,315 posts)That's why it's so patronizing. He's taking a stereotype and playing on it for his political gain. That's what people are pointing out.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)You perceive his words as an insult..but those in his target audience are proud of the jobs they do and don't see it that way.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)He's not directing this at Bernie supporters who voted for Hillary. He's talking to Trump supporters.
pokerfan
(27,677 posts)... or should.
lunasun
(21,646 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)He regularly claimed to be speaking for "the Americans who take their shower AFTER work, not before." In other words, the people who REALLY work for a living.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)but I always thought that shower thing was weird.
Response to riversedge (Original post)
Post removed
DefenseLawyer
(11,101 posts)I know I have.
m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)yardwork
(61,588 posts)DefenseLawyer
(11,101 posts)Last edited Fri Jun 23, 2017, 03:15 PM - Edit history (1)
There is a difference in speaking to varied concerns and catering to the concerns of one group at the expense of your values. So for example, let's say hypothetically that white, working class voters are all homophobes (They're not, but stay with me). If a Democrat speaks to them and says, I want to address your concerns for cheaper college, better wages or whatever, but I absolutely support LGBT rights so deal with it, I just don't have a problem with it. No if we say, we have to go soft on LGBT support in order to "woo" some other group, that is what we cannot do. We have a lot more in common than we have in opposition.
yardwork
(61,588 posts)I hear his message as "The only people who matter are Real Men who have blue collar jobs in the heartland. We aren't interested in that liberal San Francisco stuff."
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Some people criticize "identity politics" when it involves minorities, but are quick to engage in it when it comes to "people who shower after work" vs. "the elite"
DefenseLawyer
(11,101 posts)Maybe I'm naive but I think there is plenty of common ground to map out between all of us.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)And that is indicative of precisely what?
mythology
(9,527 posts)The people who are angry and hurting from having had a "safe" path to the middle class taken away from them. You can argue that they are falling prey to a racist appeal from Trump and other Republicans that has zero chance of returning those jobs/incomes, and you'd be correct, but that doesn't get them voting for Democrats. We need a message that appeals to their interests as someday soon a lot of white collar jobs are going to be hit by automation too.
We need an approach that reaches a coalition large enough to win.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)or to Mexico because of cheap wages. Trade as practice now has become a giant rush to the bottom. Also, there are white collar jobs leaving too so some who opine about others who 'just have to fact facts etc" are endangered as well in terms of jobs...the third shift at Lordstown is down and yet they make the Cruze hatchback in Mexico. It is not automation that lost those jobs. The car is still being manufactured somewhere else. And let me say that it is not GM's fault. They are forced to compete with countries that refuse to take our cars and dump on our markets. We need jobs...and telling people that jobs aren't coming back = electoral losses.
haele
(12,647 posts)Because some really tough jobs that leave you almost too exhausted to drive home at night require you to look and smell nice before you walk in the door - like teaching, or waitressing, or nursing, or working retail at a store in which you also have to stock and provide customer service, or make deliveries ... working with the public type jobs, where you have to shower before you come in to work, but maybe you're working with your brain more than you're working with your arms and back.
You know - all those sissy "pink collar" jobs or hoity-toity "easy" public service sector jobs that are often the only job in a household that is feeding the kids.
Hell, artists - especially actors, dancers and musicians - can be burning the most calories and sweating up a storm in practice and during performance - for long hours at a time, and they have to remain looking cool and in character while doing so.
I've worked as an extra before. You come in at 4am, and you're not out of there until around 9pm, and it's hot, and boring, and you've got to be able to remain alert and sustain whatever activity is required - and consistently be absolutely perfect on cue for hours on end - all at a moment's notice. And if there's any safety concerns on set or on the stage, you have to be able to react to any possible danger. People get seriously injured or killed on set or on stage all the time.
And don't get me started on what the general public thinks about craftsmen or makers who try to make a living selling their wares at specialty shops or on Etsy - even those who do labor intensive metal fabrication or carpentry work. Those are just "hobby jobs", don't you know...not real jobs - doesn't matter that they're working from the time they get up in the morning until they can squeeze in some family time before the kids go to bed.
This "shower when you come home from work means you work a real job" is basically misogynistic class bigotry. It's a stereotype that only sweaty manly-man factory or maybe farming work is "real" work.
Haele
DefenseLawyer
(11,101 posts)Frankly I see a lot more division and resentment in your rant than anything the politician said, but maybe I am misunderstanding where you are coming from.
haele
(12,647 posts)Blue collar is a stereotype that means different things depending on the region it's used in.
Here in California, where "blue collar/pink collar/white collar" has been pretty much left the political lexicon, the few times the term "blue collar" is used, it represents any labor that has significant physical requirements - from public sector service work (including some teaching and caretaking) to retail to manufacturing/artisan work to agriculture. Primarily hourly labor, but there are a few "blue collar" piece-work or salaried labor recognized.
Doesn't matter if it's skilled/certified labor or unskilled labor - or if the person has to take a shower after work - "Blue Collar" pretty much anything that isn't suit and tie required "professional" or management work.
My point is that to link the "takes a shower after work" comment to "we're not addressing the lost manufacturing jobs" really limits what the context "Blue Collar" Ryan is talking about.
Ryan is specifically addressing "Lost Auto Factory Jobs". What used to be Union Auto/Manufacturing Jobs - which were historically "White Working Class" jobs in his region.
He's not talking about the other equally stressful historic industry jobs in the region the locals have pretty much ceded to "the immigrants" because they "didn't pay enough" - like heavy agricultural and processing jobs (i.e., slaughterhouses, dairies, packing).
He's not talking about other equally difficult semi-skilled or technical labor, like the modern light manufacturing jobs that are small businesses, start-ups, or green technology jobs that many in these conservative Midwestern states sneer at as either liberal "make-work" or they aren't "labor intensive" enough to be used to pretend that they can keep doing things the same way "Grand-Daddy who worked the Clutch Fabrication Line all his life for GM and retired with a Pension in the '70's" did.
The Democrats, especially the Latte drinking Liberals from Silicon Valley have all sorts of plans for this type of work. But instead of promoting this new economic reality of where work is going, the "Hard Working, proud Company Men" type of Midwesterners like Ryan claim these policies are out of touch with their regions? Because people who promote these businesses are elitists who want trained and mentally flexible workers who don't just clock in and clock out?
What I am seeing is the context behind the shorthand Ryan is using.
He isn't looking at the future, he just wants to do the easy politics of holding the hands of the dissatisfied White working Class base that elected him and telling them everything is going to be alright and they don't have to change - because that's what the GOP is doing everywhere else. The only difference in strategy is that the GOP is blaming the Democrats, while Ryan is blaming the "Liberal Democrats". Neither are really talking about any future reality - it's all about keeping the electorate comfortably in the past, where they feel safe.
Not telling his constituents the truth, or balking over working with other States who have already gone through the painful progress for solutions that work and preparing the region for a future that will require participation and collaboration - a future that *is* rapidly leaving that workforce behind.
Ryan's "Blue Collar Working Class" American is frankly going the way of the family farm; pretty much gone by the 1970's. A few people can still work the same way their grandparents did, but the region still needs to progress. Coddling the Electorate instead of actually working on ways to treat them like grown-ups and provide them with strategies to succeed instead of remain helpless corporate tools and "consumers" with does them no favors.
If the future of the Democratic party is to go back to the comfort of the past instead of continuing to look forward (be it ever so slowly, because a society is still only as strong as it's weakest links), then we might as well just give up and hand the country to the GOP.
Haele
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)She and my son lost their jobs when the third shift went down. Now Ryan should shut his mouth, but with thousands laid off, he is endangered...I think his attacks on Democratic leadership will only hurt him and the Democratic Party, and told him so. But let's be careful how we talk about really decent people (for the most part) who work the factory jobs. They can hear you.
haele
(12,647 posts)I understand manufacturing jobs - before I f'ed up my back and right leg in a workplace injury, for 15 years, I regularly carried a 50 lb toolbox (and occasionally welding equipment) around up and down decks for up to ten hours a day, five days a week; I've done on-site demo with some pretty hefty HP tools, fabrication, ran heavy power cable and waveguide as well as running systems operational testing, because there was typically very few other engineers who could do both the on-site "change engineering" along with understanding the "grunt work" necessary to do shipboard weapons network and communications systems installations. And I kept learning while I was working.
Even though it seems I'm slamming on hard working decent people, I'm actually more insulted with the patronizing tone that politicians like Ryan make, isolating those hard working, decent people from the rest of society using pandering and stereotyping.
When I got injured - at the age of 51 - I had to realize what the future for me actually was and look at my options to go forward. I was lucky to both have had the training and live in a community, in a state where there were resources and the social support that helped me to start over, even at my advanced age. It took time, but I did it.
If my leaders, my representatives, had kept going on and on; implying that it was the work I did before was the only real measure of my worth to Society and that it was the worst thing in the world that I lost my job, because I *no longer meet the requirements of my designated task*, it basically would force on me the realization that I and my family were disposable and not worth an investment by society. That sort of backhanded patronization is an effort to infantilize me, and diminish my potential and worth as a Citizen.
So is my complaining about politicians pandering to "Working Class" by saying "those Elitists" are out of touch over their legitimate concerns is somehow more demeaning to them than that pandering fostering and reinforcing their fears they are disposable to society because they can't do what they're supposed to do according to the stereotype they've been living? That they should be expected to cling to "their traditional place in society" rather than work with those "damn elitists " to look to build other opportunities and solutions in a realistic future?
Haele
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)Many in auto's were re-trained for jobs that didn't exist...which is why re-training is a dirty word around here. I live in Ohio and Ryan is my rep. I have complained about his attacks on Democrats three times now. But my son who is in manufacturing does not perceive his words as being condescending...he thinks Ryan 'gets' them. And some folks do tend to look down on factory workers...I have seen it here. In fact credit unions came about because banks refused to lend to workers even if they made decent money. We had prosperity when we manufactured...this is always where the money is and one of the reasons China is full of cash. Unless we realize that and start working on jobs, we are pretty much finished...there will be a rush to the bottom with a few having big money and the rest of us left to fight for scraps. I don't want to leave that sort of a world for my kids.
DBoon
(22,356 posts)by declaring that the work we do isn't real work, that we are some sort of economic parasite living off people with sweaty manual labor jobs
kcr
(15,315 posts)Tim Ryan gets it. 
DefenseLawyer
(11,101 posts)I'm at a loss to understand where this party is headed.
kcr
(15,315 posts)DefenseLawyer
(11,101 posts)stonecutter357
(12,695 posts)
roscoeroscoe
(1,370 posts)Army active duty
ileus
(15,396 posts)If it's a weekend I may take two or three showers a day depending on what I get into.
I cannot stand the thought (much less doing) of getting into bed without a shower. If I let the dogs on the bed that may be different, but they're crated at night.
bigtree
(85,987 posts)...no surprise to see centrists like Ryan adopting the political attacks.
Also unsurprising to see anti-Democratic leftists chiming in.
yardwork
(61,588 posts)
ismnotwasm
(41,976 posts)I'll be a floor nurse until the day I die--or retire, because I have zero desire to be involved in management or administration. Or do anything else besides nursing.
We all shower. #showersolidarity
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)Thousands of auto workers are laid off in Ohio...many in Ryan's district. Lordstown GM is down a third shift. So far my son says the union guys are sticking with him, but if this continues or worsens Ryan is in trouble. He should be attacking Trump...but sadly he thinks this will help him and he is afraid to attack Trump since Trumbull County went for Donnie the Douche...not by much but a win nevertheless.
quickesst
(6,280 posts)......., but when I was working construction I took my shower in the evening when I got off of work. Who crawls into bed either alone or with their spouse with a days worth of stink on them? I don't take a shower in the morning because I didn't wake up in a stinky bed by not taking a shower the night before.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)DefenseLawyer
(11,101 posts)“I have a much broader base to build a winning coalition on,” she said in the interview, citing an article by The Associated Press.
It “found how Senator Obama’s support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again, and how whites in both states who had not completed college were supporting me.”
“There’s a pattern emerging here,” she said.
https://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/08/clinton-touts-white-support/
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)stonecutter357
(12,695 posts)whathehell
(29,067 posts)La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)in the primary
doc03
(35,325 posts)take a shower? 
romanic
(2,841 posts)Perpetually ignorant people thrive on strawman arguments too justify thier shit opinions, don't waste your words on somebody like that.
Vinca
(50,267 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)It taps into biases and notions of the superiority of good working people.
JustAnotherGen
(31,811 posts)What's funny - and I don't think this man will ever really 'get it'. 78% of black folks do NOT live in poverty. It's a hard sharp demarc between have and have not. Maybe we are the canary in the coal mine? Maybe that's the true number of what the great reset is?
I dunno. But he could very well lose the 78% to a Republican like Evan McMullin if he's not careful.
leftstreet
(36,106 posts)That used to be considered a very conservative mindset
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)pirateshipdude
(967 posts)wipe the floor with, right? Effectively showing all of us her strength in this alone.
Cha
(297,154 posts)Chitown Kev use to post here!
As for showers.. I take one in the morning and I took one after work.. now I take one after I run.
That was a silly divisive thing to say.
kcr
(15,315 posts)I hope he hasn't left. I've always enjoyed his posts.
Persisted
(290 posts)when the air conditioning broke. As it did every May.
Fuck Tim Ryan.
Cha
(297,154 posts)a shower person. I'm in Hawaii.. it gets hot.. we take cold showers. 
Persisted
(290 posts)In my working days my indulgence was a long hot bath after dinner with a whiskey and a book.
Cha
(297,154 posts)shower he uses all year round.
Sounds like a soothing indulgence.
Persisted
(290 posts)Hot bath with whiskey? Pure bliss.
spanone
(135,824 posts)
Buckeye_Democrat
(14,853 posts)Since I live alone, there were many days after a long shift of sweating on a factory floor that I didn't shower after work. If I had reason to think I'd be around other people after work, I definitely showered. I also showered after work if I was covered in grime other than dried perspiration. (I perspired so much a few times that my clothes had white flakes of salt covering them after they dried out in my home.)
As for the comments about Pelosi, Ryan is an ass. I might agree with him if she was a truly corrupt politician, but most of the hate directed at her is simply the result of right-wing propagandists who resent her being a liberal leader.
On the other hand, I would never want her to run for President because I'd fear that the old right-wing diatribes would close the minds of many voters before they really listened to her! It's the same reason that I cringed when I realized that Hillary Clinton was running for President again. It's not that I think she would be a bad President, and I voted for her in November, but sometimes reputation is hard to overcome. It's not really hard to understand. Even someone who is cleared of a crime with absolute proof can be tainted forever in the minds of many people who heard the accusations.
Zing Zing Zingbah
(6,496 posts)There's just a lot of toxic people that find it appealing.
emulatorloo
(44,116 posts)I do not understand why some folks here want to purge a solid lefty like Pelosi who is great at her job. And substitute an inexperienced and apparently conservative Democrat.
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)I'm a white collar worker that directly supports the blue collar worker. We're both required. I work proposals to sell more of the stuff the line workers are making. We do different work, but both are equally important. You can't have one without the other.
LuvLoogie
(6,993 posts)All the news items he links to on his Facebook page are stories of him bashing Democrats. Fuck him.
emulatorloo
(44,116 posts)They act as if is some kind of savior of the party
blueinredohio
(6,797 posts)Girl scouts promote homosexuality or something to that effect?
dawg
(10,624 posts)
Lebam in LA
(1,344 posts)Some nights he came home so dirty we couldn't recognize him. Lifelong Democrat and Union member.
milestogo
(16,829 posts)wash off the steady flow of Republican bullshit.
UTUSN
(70,683 posts)doc03
(35,325 posts)oil field, farm, construction you get dirty and have to take a shower after work.
Hekate
(90,645 posts)...means going to bed sticky if you don't shower beforehand. My showering habits were set in Hawai'i in the first 32 years of my life. Sticky, sticky, sticky.
Also, how early does a working woman have to get up in the morning to shower, coordinating ownership of the shower with hubby, make breakfast for everybody, see them off, and get to work on time herself?
But no problem. We're only half the population.
As for Tim Ryan, who I heard of for the first time this week from an excitable DUer who wants him to replace Nancy Pelosi, the more I see of him the less I like him.
nini
(16,672 posts)what an asshole
betsuni
(25,472 posts)scented with expensive bath oils while sipping chilled Chardonnay and listening to classical music on NPR. So I've heard. I don't know if they have cheese with their wine before bathing or after.
JHan
(10,173 posts)And hang "minimalist paintings" in their home.
[url=https://imgflip.com/i/1rgbbk][img]
[/img][/url][url=https://imgflip.com/memegenerator][/url]
so I've been told, although I don't live this life. LOL
Flaleftist
(3,473 posts)
retrowire
(10,345 posts)I take a shower once a month.
