Otto Warmbier's Brain Tissue Loss

[erpowers]

Does anyone at DU remember hearing anyone on the news saying that when Otto Warmbier returned home it was discovered that he had lost 50% of his brain tissue? I was discussing the story with a family member and I told them that I had heard news reports that Warmbier had lost 50% of his brain tissue. They were shocked so I did a google search just to make sure I was giving them the right information. The google search returned results that said "extensive brain tissue loss", but not 50% brain tissue loss. Maybe I heard extensive brain tissue loss and just thought the reporter was saying 50% brain tissue loss. So did anyone else at DU hear any reports of Otto Warmbier suffering from 50% brain tissue loss?

[Spider Jerusalem]

1. Every report I saw just said "extensive loss of tissue in all regions of the brain"

which is consistent with being revived after a prolonged period of anoxia of between five and ten minutes; see here: http://www.spinalcord.com/blog/what-happens-after-a-lack-of-oxygen-to-the-brain

[JI7]

4. so that explains no signs of physically being beaten

they tortured him by suffocation.

[lpbk2713]

5. Or water boarding.

Many possibilities.

[JI7]

6. and i'm sure it went on for months also

how fucking horrible .

[Spider Jerusalem]

7. Or electric shock.

Which is something that might stop the heart.

[sharp_stick]

8. That's a big jump

He may have been drowning or in an accident or trying to commit suicide.

I'm not trying to draw conclusions just bringing up alternatives.

[yardwork]

10. Are you serious? He was under arrest. He didn't go swimming.

[sharp_stick]

23. He was in a prison camp

I'm guessing you've never seen a prison camp? All I was doing is giving potential causes of the same outcome.

[yardwork]

28. I have seen plenty of photos of prison camps and they don't have swimming pools.

[sharp_stick]

36. They have rivers, they have ponds, they have cesspits.

You don't need a pool to drown. Or to be suffocated in any number of ways.

Prisoners in these hell holes are poorly fed, exhausted, often really sick and weak. It wouldn't take long.

[denbot]

39. Dah comrade.

His injuries were self inflicted.

[B2G]

16. Suicide? You don't think NK would have said that

if that was the case? It would have been a great excuse to use for his abhorrent condition.

In fact, I'm surprised they didn't.

[sharp_stick]

24. No

NK is so damned secretive they won't say anything. They seem to like making sure everyone is confused.

It probably wasn't, I'm just saying there are ways other than torture that could have given the same result.

[BigmanPigman]

2. No, but maybe that's why the family didn't want/need an autopsy.

[Not Ruth]

3. Was there a lobotomy?

[HipChick]

9. No sign of surgical trauma

In my medical career, I was unfortunate to witness a lobotomy - cutting and sawing into the skull/brain would leave surgical marks

[WinkyDink]

11. It wouldn't have caused a coma.

[WinkyDink]

12. I'm sorry to say, but this topic is not looming large in the US now. Otto is gone, buried, and that

is that.

Nothing more ever, ever will be learned---not about his motives, his deeds, his punishments, his proximate cause of death, nothing.

[Not Ruth]

13. We have learned one thing

800 Americans visit North Korea annually. Most survive, some do not.

The Department of State strongly warns U.S. citizens not to travel to North Korea/the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (DPRK). The Department of State strongly warns U.S. citizens not to travel to North Korea/the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (DPRK). U.S. citizens in the DPRK are at serious risk of arrest and long-term detention under North Korea’s system of law enforcement. This system imposes unduly harsh sentences for actions that would not be considered crimes in the United States and threatens U.S. citizen detainees with being treated in accordance with “wartime law of the DPRK.” Since the United States does not maintain diplomatic or consular relations with North Korea, the U.S. government has no means to provide normal consular services to U.S. citizens in North Korea. This notice updates the number of U.S. citizens who have been detained in North Korea and replaces the Travel Warning dated February 7, 2017.

At least 16 U.S. citizens have been detained in North Korea in the past ten years. North Korean authorities have detained those who traveled independently and those who were part of organized tours. Being a member of a group tour or using a tour guide will not prevent North Korean authorities from detaining or arresting you. Efforts by private tour operators to prevent or resolve past detentions of U.S. citizens in the DPRK have not been successful.

If you decide to enter North Korea against the advice of this Travel Warning, you should have no expectation of privacy. All electronic and multimedia devices including USB drives, CDs, DVDs, mobile phones, tablets, laptops, Internet browsing histories, and cookies are subject to search for banned content.

If DPRK authorities permit you to keep your mobile phone when you enter the country, it will not function unless you use the DPRK mobile service, which will enable DPRK authorities to monitor your calls. GPS-trackers and satellite phones are not allowed.

Possession of any media, either physical or electronic, that is critical of the DPRK government or its leaders is considered a criminal act punishable by long-term detention in hard labor camps and heavy fines.

In North Korea, the following – whether done knowingly or unknowingly – have been treated as crimes:

Showing disrespect to the country’s former leaders, Kim Il Sung or Kim Jong Il, or for the country’s current leader, Kim Jong Un, including but not limited to tampering with or mishandling materials bearing their names or images;
Entering North Korea without proper travel documentation;
Possessing material that is in any way critical of the DPRK government;
Proselytizing or carrying out religious activities, including activities that may be construed as such, like leaving behind religious materials;
Engaging in unsanctioned political activities;
Traveling without authorization, even for short distances;
Having unauthorized interaction with the local population;
Exchanging currency with an unauthorized vendor;
Taking unauthorized photographs;
Bringing pornography into the country;
Shopping at stores not designated for foreigners; and
Removing or tampering with political slogans and signs or pictures of political leaders.
Numerous foreigners have been held in North Korea for extended periods of time without being formally charged with any crimes. Detained foreigners have been questioned daily for several weeks without the presence of counsel and have been compelled to make public statements and take part in public trials.

Since the United States does not maintain diplomatic or consular relations with North Korea, the U.S. government has no means to provide normal consular services to U.S. citizens. The Embassy of Sweden in Pyongyang is the Protecting Power for U.S. citizens in the DPRK providing limited consular services to U.S. citizens who require emergency assistance. Although the U.S.-DPRK Interim Consular Agreement stipulates that North Korea will notify the Embassy of Sweden within four days of an arrest or detention of a U.S. citizen and will allow consular visits by the Swedish Embassy within two days after a request is made, the DPRK government routinely delays or denies consular access.

The DPRK funnels revenue from a variety of sources to its nuclear and weapons programs, which it prioritizes above everything else, often at the expense of the well-being of its own people. It is entirely possible that money spent by tourists in the DPRK goes to fund these programs. We would urge all travelers, before travelling to the DPRK, to consider what they might be supporting.

The DPRK remains one of the most heavily sanctioned countries in the world. U.S. citizens traveling to North Korea should familiarize themselves with all applicable sanctions relating to the country, particularly U.S. sanctions. To learn more about U.S. sanctions on the DPRK, see the Department of Treasury’s Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC).

The Department of State remains deeply concerned about the DPRK’s ongoing, systematic, and widespread human rights violations. To learn more about North Korea’s deplorable human rights situation, see the DPRK Country Report on Human Rights Practices for 2015.

The United States and the United Nations Security Council have expressed grave concern regarding North Korea’s recent nuclear tests, ballistic missile launches, and other activities prohibited by United Nations Security Council Resolutions. UN Security Council statements from January 2016 and March 2016 are posted on the UN website.

As a result of concerns arising from unannounced missile launch activities and GPS navigation systems interference and/or disruption, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has issued a Prohibition and Advisory notice to U.S. airmen and operators. The FAA has issued Special Federal Aviation Regulation (SFAR) 79 which prohibits U.S. civil aviation from flying in the Pyongyang Flight Information Region (FIR) west of 132 degrees east longitude, and the FAA has advised those flying in and around the Pyongyang (FIR) east of 132 degrees east longitude to be aware of possible GPS interruptions. For more information, U.S. citizens should consult the Federal Aviation Administration’s Prohibitions, Restrictions and Notices.

For further information:

See the Department of State’s travel website at travel.state.gov for current Worldwide Cautions, Travel Warnings, Travel Alerts, and Country Specific Information for North Korea.

Enroll in the Smart Traveler Enrollment Program (STEP) to receive important safety and security messages via email (though you may not have access to email while in North Korea). Enrollment also makes it easier to locate you in case of an emergency.

U.S. citizens who plan to travel to North Korea are strongly encouraged to inform the U.S. Embassy in Beijing, China by enrolling in STEP. U.S. citizens residing in China can contact the U.S. Embassy directly. The Embassy is located next to the Ladies’ Street (Nuren Jie) and Laitai Flower Market, near the Kempinski Hotel and Lufthansa Shopping Center on Tianze Road near the Liangmaqiao subway stop:
U.S. Embassy in Beijing
American Citizens Services Unit
No. 55 An Jia Lou Road
Chaoyang District
Beijing, China 100600
Telephone: [phone]
Email: [e-mail]
Emergency after-hours number for U.S. citizens: (86-10) 8531-4000

U.S. citizens traveling to North Korea are also strongly encouraged to contact the Embassy of Sweden by email prior to travel. Please provide the Embassy of Sweden with your name, date of birth, dates of your trip, and emergency contact information:

The Embassy of Sweden Pyongyang (U.S. Protecting Power in North Korea)
Munsu-Dong District
Pyongyang, DPRK
Telephone: [phone] (reception)
Telephone: [phone] (Deputy)
Telephone: [phone] (Amb.)
Facsimile: (850-2) 3817 663
Email: [e-mail]
If you provide information to the U.S. Embassy in Beijing or the Swedish Embassy in Pyongyang, officials will be able to locate you more easily in an emergency. Take note of and keep the contact details for the Swedish embassy for easy access in case of an emergency.

U.S. citizens can obtain current information on safety and security conditions by calling 1-888-407-4747 toll-free in the United States and Canada or 1-202-501-4444 from other countries from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, Monday through Friday (except U.S. federal holidays).
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[GreenEyedLefty]

19. The dangers are pretty clear... and yet, the orange asshole would be "honored" to meet Kim Jong Un.

[dalton99a]

21. The list is pretty explicit

[catbyte]

30. Man, you couldn't pay me enough to enter North Korea. It's worse than the days of Henry VIII

and treason was what he said it was. No freaking way. Anybody, other than Dennis rodman I suppose, would be nuts to go there.

[LuckyLib]

32. +1000. All the wonderful places on the planet to go --

what is the attraction? Why?

[Not Ruth]

33. In 2018, 2 tourists are flying SpaceX around the moon

So there are some adventurous tourists out there. But North Korea seems like a bad vacation choice, unless you plan to behave.

[WinkyDink]

40. Why did you think that tl;dr post about visiting NK was important here? WHO HERE has

expressed any interest in visiting?!

[Lee-Lee]

14. My theory is that it was oxygen starvation during torture

It could have been positional asphyxia when unconscious or intentional chocking or any of many things.

I suspect the reason they kept him so long in the state he is in is to allow time for all the bruises and wounds and signs of torture to heal. And to ensure his condition was permanent so he would never talk.

[Not Ruth]

20. How might that result in 50% loss of tissue?

[Lee-Lee]

26. Brain is deprived of oxygen and cells die

Dead brain cells don't reproduce or replace ten selves.

[Not Ruth]

29. Is that called loss of tissue?

Thought that it was described as brain dead

[Lee-Lee]

37. This link explains it pretty well

https://www.google.com/amp/www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/amp/otto-warmbier-has-extensive-brain-damage-doctors-say-n773036

[librechik]

15. perhaps the coma occurred many months ago

just lying around unconscious shrinks brain tissue.

[AngryAmish]

17. An anoxic event will cause brain tissue to die

Extended lack of oxygen cause brain tissue to die and it is absorbed into the body for digestion.

Also, depending on the coma usually they pump you with cortosteroids which causes brain shrinkage/ventricals expand.

So, no there was unlikely surgery.

Or a giant hematoma left untreated.

I am not a doctor but those are my guesses.

[Tanuki]

18. This CNN article gives a good summary of what is known. The Warmbier family vetoed performing an

autopsy, which might have shed more light on how this tragic event occurred.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/06/21/health/otto-warmbier-autopsy/index.html

[smirkymonkey]

25. Why do you think they denied an autopsy?

I would have assumed in a case like this that it would be paramount.

[janterry]

27. I think they should have allowed it, too

My first thought was because whatever happened - they did not ask the MD's to do too much intervention (after all, he was never going to really recover) - and maybe just wanted to leave the full blame with North Korea (not that it wasn't with NK, but perhaps all that info would muddy the waters?)

But, of course, I have no idea. I don't think - given the politics of the situation, they s hould have been able to veto the autopsy.

[elehhhhna]

31. Could be religious reasons

And no the gov shouldn't override the family's wishes.

[smirkymonkey]

38. Seems odd. Especially since the manner of his death was questionable.

They could have proven that it was a result of torture rather than "natural" causes.

[Docreed2003]

35. Many people are opposed to autopsy...

Mainly due to the nature of the procedure. Sometimes, people refuse autopsy for religious reasons.

[WinkyDink]

41. 1. It's very disruptive to a body. 2. They might learn he was killed under Trump, not Obama.

[smirkymonkey]

42. Ah ha!

Number 2 is something I did not consider before. Very interesting.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

22. Good questions. I wonder if an autopsy would have provided any answers.

Too late now, but I wonder if there was some kind of diplomatic pressure to end this case.

[Motley13]

34. extremely disturbing, NK prison camps

http://www.businessinsider.com/un-north-korea-prison-camp-2017-3/#in-a-country-of-25-million-people-up-to-200000-have-reportedly-disappeared-into-brutal-concentration-camps-found-throughout-the-country-1