Democrats are still bringing a knife to a gunfight.

[procon]

Republicans fight dirty. They don't use facts, they lie, cheat and steal, and they get away with it because the voters love the idea of sticking it to the evil lefties. Look what they say about Democrats; we're all traitors, lazy, moochers, welfare queens, elitists, cowards, feminists, foreigners, commies, socialists, and we hate the righteous gun loving, straight, patriot, white, working, Christians who love America.

To counter the constant, 24/7 miasma of rightwing propaganda churned out by their accomplices in partisan TV, hate radio, the internet, emails and print, what do Democrats do? We toss out a few dry facts and we tell jokes by trying to ridicule, embarrass or mock whatever atrocious policy Republicans are trying to foist on us. We politely call them, "mean" and "meaner" while they scream that Democrats are godless murderers, then we cut to funny SNL video clips.

I don't know the answer, or how to get Dems to fight back more effectively, but clearly TPTB are going about this all wrong. At a minimum, even a simple declarative statement of intent would be a good place to start with an easily understood, uniform message. Look, we have all the facts, the polls, the studies, the science, the experts, and the information on our side, but we don't use any of that information effectively. We aren't serious about fighting for our principles and all too often Democrats are driven into a defensive crouch because we let Republicans frame the game to their own best benefit and make us look weak and inept.

I'm so tired and depressed about the endless concession speeches from candidates who end up as sad footnotes, also rans and wannabes, while Republicans chalk up another victory dance! Those aren't positive traits that will attract voters, so how can Democrats get back in the game and be a strong, competitive force against Republican lies?

[Binkie The Clown]

1. If you ask me, Dems are bringing a Tuna Casserole and an acoustic guitar to a gun fight. n/t

[procon]

2. I'd laugh, but then I'd be part of the problem I just complained about.

But your analogy is perfect. Maybe it's genetics and we're just hardwired to be non confrontational? I don't understand why we tend to be so complicit, but I'm guilty too. Pass the casserole, please, and can you play, "If I Had A Hammer"?

[kerry-is-my-prez]

22. I'm actually a scrapper and confront a lot of people but need fellow scrappers. I was raised by

a Republican family in a Republican area - so maybe that's it. I was more of an Indy until the Clarence Thomas thing. As a woman, I could not stomach it and it really enraged me. Have never voted for a Republican again. Now that party is my mortal enemy.

[Augiedog]

39. That "party" is the mortal enemy of America, period!

[tandem5]

11. In the words of Monty Python: "Fetch the comfy chair!"

[Initech]

3. Where's our Infowars? Where's our Breitbart? Where's our Limbaugh and Hannity?

We need to start getting our message out there. The GOP has all but silenced us. They now control 100% of the media and they're able to get their message out there. To quote one of my all time favorite movies, Spaceballs - "What have we got on this thing? A Cuisinart?"

[smirkymonkey]

4. We have been too nice for too long.

It's time to start playing dirty.

[RKP5637]

54. Democrats have been floor mats for the republicans for years/decades!!! n/t

[Paladin]

6. We need to be fighting the right on their scumbag level---and immediately.

We get absolutely nowhere with the republicans, if we adhere to fair-play rules they discarded decades ago---they depend on Democrats being wimps, and way too often, we give them exactly what they want. I've been saying the same thing for years, here on DU. How about we all get angry, uncompromising and involved, for a change?

[Initech]

8. I don't know. I would love to start a left-wing Infowars / Breitbart.

The question is how do we go about doing that?

[Paladin]

12. Asking the questions is an important first step.

There have to be answers on-line; maybe a review of Breitbart's history---loathsome though it may be---might furnish some clues to a starting point.

I applaud you for your independent willingness to move things forward---it doesn't seem like we can rely on the Democratic Party leadership for much, at the moment. It pains me to say that, as an old, life-long Democrat, but I'm afraid it's true.

[JHB]

43. Step 1: Find a Left-wing multibillionaire equivalent to Mercer....

Step 2: Reach over, turn off the alarm clock, and sit up bleary-eyed in bed, and gripe about his that dream had been so nice until you woke up.

[RKP5637]

55. Democrats have NEVER been able to initiate/manage that type of messaging and hence get

walked all over by media: FM/AM even shortwave, cable, tv/internet. The Media is swamped with RW crap and all one hears from democrats is a peep. I have absolutely no idea what Democrats suck so badly at messaging or why they let the RW take over just about all media.

[procon]

14. No, that's not the answer. Democrats would gain nothing by trying to sell

themselves as Republican wannabes or a GOP v 2.0. We should not aspire to become them or pattern ourselves after their propaganda of lies, deception and hate. Yes,we can and should be angry, uncompromising and involved, but we also must be effective in promoting the policies that people want, and delivering our message in a manner that appeals to the most voters.

Our branding sucks right now, but it seems that any top notch ad agency could come up with a better marketing game plan than the one Democrats have now. Let's try and avoid anything that might drag us down into the muck with the lying, dishonorable and traitorous Republicans.

[Paladin]

20. I'd like to agree with you, but I just can't. Times have changed.

That "Let's not be as ugly as they are" argument was out of date, even before trump showed up and took things into the toilet. Reclaiming our country is going to involve some fighting---and dirty fighting, at that. We can start being genteel, after we are getting the federal government back from the republicans. Not before.

[procon]

25. I'm not against fighting dirty as long as whatever method Dems use is effective.

Tactics that work in some areas, or with some demographics would fail in others. In marketing anything, a custom tailored and flexible approach designed to microtarget specific groups with a message that appeals best to them is more effective than just coming out swinging.

[Paladin]

33. OK, I can agree with that. (nt)

[LOL Lib]

57. I agree, but I don't know if you would get much support from here.

I have been saying that repubes are waging war against us since I joined DU. They literally want to eradicate us from the country. PERIOD!

If we don't fight like our lives depend on it, we'll guess what? Our lives really may depend on it one day. I don't know what to do. I'm young, inexperienced in politics, but I know that I want to live in a more liberal society. That is completely counter intuitive to "fighting back" but fighting back may be for the greater good.

I really want to help, but I got silenced here a few days ago for posting a thread about melanias alleged boyfriend. It was lighthearted and some of the other ladies agreed that Melania deserves a better man. Holy shit! The alert crew shut my ass down. Accused me of gossip and looney conspiracy theories. So fuck it, I will stick to posting Keith Olbermann vids and random comments.

How can you expect anything less than Dems bringing a rubber knife to a gunfight? I mean get the fuck real! I know there is a crowd here who will revel when I'm banned, but what they fail to see is that I want exactly the same utopia as they do. I don't know how to get there, but the old way needs to be modified before it's too late. We may be the majority, but the minority wants us gone and they aren't afraid to play dirty.

[Expecting Rain]

5. So we should become another party of lying, cheating, stealing, and fake-news?

I don't think so.

[Paladin]

9. Nice, well-behaved losers are still losers. (nt)

[mythology]

40. Funny I'm pretty sure the Obamas are winners.

[procon]

48. Your call, but my topic is on better messaging.

My focus is on how can Dems do better at branding our ideas to deliver a more concise, uniform message. Right now we seem very disjointed and ineffective in making a our way is appealing as a powerful, inspiring solution that uplifts everyone.

I'm confident Dems can find a way to do that without becoming a second rate imitation of the GOP, because (as I wrote above) we have all the data, the polls, the science, the reports, on our side.

[pscot]

7. We're suffering from entrenched and inept leadership

that's gotten old and doesn't have a clue about how to proceed. We've become the granny party and we're trying to cope with Atilla the Hun. There's been no serious attempt at party building since Howard Dean got run off. Orgs like ALEC are out there working 24/7 to promote the business agenda and elect local officials. There's nothing analogous on our side and you can't beat something with nothing.

[Initech]

10. I think the billionaires have a lot to do with it.

What we're seeing now is the peak of what happens when you allow unlimited amounts of money to be spent on politics. You get the most inept people imaginable, and you get foreign influence. The GOP took back their country and they're throwing it in the toilet.

[pscot]

13. We have billionaires

but theirs are more single minded and partisan than ours. ALEC has been the Koch brothers pet project for 30 years and that kind of continuity matters a lot. There's nothing remotely comparable on our side.

[procon]

15. Republicans have always planned for the long war and they tend to be

better organized because authoritarians demand loyalty and subservience from their followers. They can afford to wait, and now their messaging propaganda has paid off in spades and they have won the whole enchilada. However, they are terrible at governing because their avarice and greed always kills their grand plan of a Libertarian utopia. At least that is what history shows us, hopefully, smarter people than me, will figure out how we can capitalize on their inherent weakness and end this madness before it's too late.

[LBM20]

18. Yup. No clarity. No STRONG messaging. Weakness. Blandness. Lack of focus. That is no way to lead.

[LBM20]

16. The Democratic Party has got to start standing STRONG. No one admires weakness, and it is a LOSER.

[Cha]

49. Give us an Example of "Weakness". Our

Dems are on the Front Lines Fighting Against the Fascistrumps Everyday.

[ismnotwasm]

17. What the fuck

Both my Democratic senators and my democratic Governor AND my democratic district rep are fighting like hell. What the hell are you going on about?

[LBM20]

19. There are exceptions, but on the whole the party has been weak and has been obliterated.

Seriously, why do you think the party has been obliterated all over the country. 900 lost legislative seats. Down to 17 governors. Total loss of control of the entire federal government. It didn't just happen by accident. It has happened through very, very bad leadership. I am a lifelong Dem, but the party since 2010 has been in a death spiral because it has not had a clear message and set of priorities and principles that have appealed to people. It has done a SHITTY job and has been politically destroyed. That is just the hard truth. I am not bashing the party out of any kind of spite, just stating the clear and obvious facts so we can fix the problems and be the strong party we once were.

[ismnotwasm]

24. Why do people persist with this?

What message do you think Dems put forth?

[emulatorloo]

53. We lost those seats in congress because our Reps and Senators voted to save the economy

and for healthcare. That's it, plain and simple. They were demonized for those votes by the Koch Brothers and the other dark money liars.

We don't have to lie about Republicans. Just stick to the truth.

[procon]

21. Good on you.

Please send some of those fucking awesome fighting skills to all the other states and congress where Dems seem somewhat less than effective, yeah?

I wish one size fits all, but it just doesn't. Look here, when the best response by the Senate minority leader Chuck Schumer is to timidly point to a sign accusing Republicans of being "mean", that's the visual of a weak, lackluster attack of the Republican's deadly healthcare bill that is ging to affect millions of people. Even when he tried to write in "meaner", he just looked all the more foolish and unprepared to fight back.

[ismnotwasm]

23. That's all you got?

Schumer making fun of Trump? And, in your mind, this is all he's done, right? Pointed to a sign--nothing else? Schumer, just sits back and lets republicans take his lunch money?

[procon]

26. Let's not launch another petty and pointless fight between Democrats.

I'm glad you are happy with your party leaders, but I dare say that most of us are not and we want to see something better from our party as a whole.

Stay calm and carry on.

[ismnotwasm]

27. No I would like your opinion on what it is Schumer does and doesn't do--currently.

I didn't start the OP.

[procon]

28. I started it.

If you want to discuss a different topic than that, then start a new thread about Schumer. Maybe someone else will want to argue with you.

[ismnotwasm]

45. No, your OP is specifically about Democratics and the lack of what? Aggression?

And you posted a picture of Schumer. How about this, what, specifically would you like to see Democrats doing? We can have a conversation.

[procon]

46. The lack of an effective response and a unified message.

As I wrote, 'I don't know the answer, or how to get Dems to fight back more effectively..." Sure wish did, though.

[Cha]

52. They are Fighting Back Strong.. on the Front Lines Every

Single Day.

[ismnotwasm]

62. I tried to tell him that

He seems to think we don't have a unified message though.

[procon]

65. If you know it, please share it with everyone. nt

[procon]

64. Maybe so, but they are not very effective at it, that's all I'm saying. 😊 nt

[Cha]

69. So you say

[tazkcmo]

77. Um, you already launched.

You posted an OP that accuses our leadership as being ineffective, incompetent and useless then tell others "Let's not launch another petty and pointless fight between Democrats."? lol

[procon]

78. The numbers speak for themselves, yeah? nt

[tazkcmo]

79. I'm not getting into this fight.

Except to laugh at you for having picked it and then complain about it when someone accepts.

[procon]

80. That's the best decision. nt

[tazkcmo]

81. Yes

Unlike yours.

[Progressive dog]

29. I'm trying to understand why public

remorse over how badly you think your party does is helpful. TPTB of the Democratic party are there because they were chosen by the party members. They are that awful establishment that you think doesn't stand for principles. If you think that Democrats should lie, cheat, and steal--you can count me and a lot of others out.

[procon]

30. If that was your takeaway, then I apologize for my lack of clarity.

If you have questions about anything in particular I wrote that led you to that impression, I'd be happy to explain my POV.

[Progressive dog]

32. The entire piece led me to the impression

that you are unhappy with TPTB, perhaps because you said so.

[procon]

37. The results being what they are, and the lack of success across the board,

gives no credence to any such assertion. Here, I gave no implicit or implied endorsement of Republican propaganda tactics. I fault the Dems for being ineffective and lackluster in their response to Republican policies and the politicians who are pushing them. Given the recent spat of regrettable outcomes, surely something can be improved?

There are certainly other, more efficacious methods of messaging and branding than to advocate copying from the GOP, or simply continue to employ the same unproductive strategies that are in use now.

[Progressive dog]

41. "Efficacious methods"

I promise that the next time I run into one of TPTB, I will suggest that Democrats use efficacious methods.

[procon]

47. Vocabulary attack?

I'm impressed.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

31. this is why I want Afghan & Iraq War Vets in leadership positions.

They know how to go on offense.

[procon]

38. I've heard some really great speakers coming from that section.

The Dems should partner with some of the vet groups to have a mentoring program that could help anyone who wants to run for office.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

44. my neighbor former naval officer & alt. energy vp is running for office.

She idolized Seth Moulton. Taking my lead from them.

[Kaleva]

34. Freepers complain about Repubs being wimps and not having the stomach to fight.

[Me.]

35. This

Neera Tanden
✔
@neeratanden

One important lesson is that when they go low, going high doesn't f**king work.

[cagefreesoylentgreen]

36. Some Dems keep treating evil like it has a conscience

Evil doesn't have a conscience.

[RKP5637]

56. Exactly!!! Somehow, many democrats feel they are appealing to the nice-guy side of the GOP. Many

just can't seem to comprehend the GOP does not give a F about democrats, the country, people or the future of the US. Their main goals are money and power, and for many they lust for hatred.

[Lunabell]

42. We need new leadership.

Younger with newer ideas. A progressive with attitude.

[Cha]

51. Nancy Pelosi is Progressive.. oh with a great

attitude.

Too bad she has so much experience.

[Lunabell]

70. I disagree

She's no progressive.

[Cha]

71. Nancy most certainly is.. She's made a lot

of actual PROGRESS.

[Dem2]

50. So, we have to lie and be more "know-nothing" than them?

Eh, we'd be better off not imitating stupid people.

[procon]

60. Your call, of course, but I'm looking for a different approach.

As I wrote initially, "At a minimum, even a simple declarative statement of intent would be a good place to start with an easily understood, uniform message. Look, we have all the facts, the polls, the studies, the science, the experts, and the information on our side, but we don't use any of that information effectively."

We can do better than we are at present, and smart people should be able to come up with more effective ways of presenting our ideas and policies without replicating the Republican propaganda techniques that we loathe and despise, yeah?

[NotASurfer]

58. Mythbusters did a show about that

Turns out in close quarters the knife is an advantage - inside 15 feet or something like that.

Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer...

[George II]

59. I'm so tired and depressed about the endless anti-Democratic discussions here on DU.....

....Years ago as I was graduating from college, our adviser told us that in the next 40-50 years I'd see a lot of things that I wouldn't be happy with. He told us though, that if we wanted to criticize things, I'd better have a suggestion for an improvement.

Unfortunately your next to last paragraph does exactly what he told us not to do:

"I don't know the answer, or how to get Dems to fight back more effectively..."

Basically, if you can't offer a solution, why criticize?

[procon]

63. Please stop using rightwing tactics.

I wrote about the need for more effective messaging techniques, hardly an "anti-Democratic" manifesto, yeah?

I'm not going to offer any criticisms for your POV, there's good and bad points to be had on all accounts. However, I seriously question the advice you were given as a youth, as there is no single, universal answer, and no one person has sufficient knowledge to claim they have all the answers on all topics.

Now, unlike your retort, I did present a couple of possible suggestions while admitting I didn't know what would be best. So now that you have aired your grievance, will you abide by your own criticisms and present your own solution?

[Buckeye_Democrat]

61. We don't need to imitate their disinformation, but I miss leaders like FDR...

... who welcomed the hatred of right-wingers.

[procon]

66. Now that's what I'm talking about!

That man used verbal harpoons to kill off crazy Republican ideas while promoting a positive message that made the Democrats look good.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

67. Here's another one that I love!

[Madam45for2923]

68. I am a Democrat! I like the way I fight. Thank you very much!

[Awsi Dooger]

72. Obama did not come across as strong

We can deny that all we want but it's the reality, and a huge part of our problem since 2008. My dad in 2008 appreciated Obama but preferred Hillary due to concerns that Obama's personality was too much like Jimmy Carter, and that could only cause problems. IMO, he was correct. Obama may have won twice but the party collapsed around him at every level and we pay for it for the foreseeable. White men perceived Obama as a weak leader. It was ridiculous considering the disastrous conditions Obama inherited and what he turned it into. Any Republican with that type of accomplishment in office would have shouted and touted and made damn sure he received full credit, and then some.

Instead, Trump lost every meaningful category in the 2016 exit poll except among voters who wanted change. He carried that in landslide proportions, and it was all the difference.

Democrats are inept handicappers. I've posted that since I joined in 2002 and nothing has changed. I spotlighted the "Meaner" sign in a post the other day. Schumer should have been given the hook by a staff member as soon as he proposed such a thing. But we obviously have staff members who are every bit as bland and overmatched as the leaders.

Let's face it, Hillary lost twice due to pathetic handicapping. In the 2008 primaries she ignore the Par 3 primaries and caucuses, assuming they didn't matter in comparison to the Par 5 states. Nate Silver surged to prominence under a pseudonym by pointing out the mathematical ignorance. Then in 2016 Hillary brainstormed to take midwestern working class states for granted despite every evidence in the 2014 midterms that white males had dramatically turned against us.

Strategic intelligence is every bit as important as sounding and acting tough. We've been flunking both categories.

A clever ad campaign is desperately needed. I mentioned the Apple PC nerd commercials a few days ago. It's not cool to fall for lies and fake news. Repeatedly. Calling Trump a liar accomplishes nothing compared to a visually devastating peer pressure spot, or several.

[Madam45for2923]

74. I see/saw Pres. Obama as a person of character and inner strength & confidence.

The type that needs not bully anyone. A great role model. A calming figure.

[quaker bill]

73. you can say anything you want

but what people will believe is who you pick and where they have stood. The exception to this are candidates like Barack Obama, who have so little public record that where they have stood is not well known.

If we want to be seen as "strong", then we need to pick a candidate who uses strong language and takes strong stands on principle, instead of getting our collective panties in a wad over "ooh he/she sounds angry - unelectable!!!!".

[4bars]

75. 4bars

The democratic party has a very, very long and hard slog to restore democracy. It is my opinion that it is far too late. Nevertheless, I may be wrong, so here is my short list of suggestions.

The party must primary and vote out of office, top to bottom, all dems who take the money from the rich and corporations. They are at the same trough as the republicans and are the ones who never quite seem to realize how horrific and heartless the republican agenda is. This is how money poisons everything.

The dem message must clearly say that they are for getting the money out of politics, that they are for single payer health care, that they are for working people. They must do this with action, not just empty words.

Can this be achieved? Can they agree on this agenda before 2018, or at all at this point? And if they can, how do they get this message out when the repubs completely control all of talk radio and much of the rest of the media. The dems have had their heads in the sand for the last 40 years while the Kochs et al have been spending massive amounts of money filling every municipal and school board and on up to 2/3 of the state legislatures with repug majorities.

All this cannot be done by 2018 or even 2020. Unfortunately, unless much of it is changed by then, I believe it will be the end of a great experiment that was brought down by greed and the lust for power. Sad for all of humanity.

[pintobean]

76. Four? Already?