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Rustyeye77

(2,736 posts)
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 09:25 AM Jun 2017

Opinion NYT: Im Glad the Dyke March Banned Jewish Stars

This weekend, at a lesbian march in Chicago, three women carrying Jewish pride flags — rainbow flags embossed with a Star of David — were kicked out of the celebration on the grounds that their flags were a “trigger.” An organizer of the Dyke March told the Windy City Times that the fabric “made people feel unsafe” and that she and the other members of the Dyke March collective didn’t want anything “that can inadvertently or advertently express Zionism” at the event.

Laurel Grauer, one of the women who was ejected, said she’d been carrying that Jewish pride flag in the march, held on the Saturday before the city’s official Pride Parade, for more than a decade. It “celebrates my queer, Jewish identity,” she explained. This year, however, she lost track of the number of people who harassed her for carrying it.

snip

That kind of choice would have been familiar to previous generations of left-wing Jews, particularly those in Europe, who felt the tug between their ethnic heritage and their “internationalist” ideological sympathies. But this is the United States. Here, progressives are supposed to be comfortable with the idea of hyphenated identities and overlapping ethnic, sexual and political affinities. Since when did a politics that celebrates choice — and choices — devolve into a requirement of being forced to choose?

Jews on the left, particularly in recent years, have attempted to square this growing discomfort by becoming more anti-Israel. But if history has taught the Jews anything it’s that this kind of contortion never ends well. It may be wrong to read too much into an ugly incident at a single march, but Jews should take what happened in Chicago as a lesson that they might not be as welcome among progressives as they might imagine. That’s a warning for which to be grateful, even as it is a reminder that anti-Semitism remains as much a problem on the far-left as it is on the alt-right.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/27/opinion/im-glad-the-dyke-march-banned-jewish-stars.html




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124 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Opinion NYT: Im Glad the Dyke March Banned Jewish Stars (Original Post) Rustyeye77 Jun 2017 OP
Chicago Dyke March Official Statement on 2017 March and Solidarity with Palestine Rustyeye77 Jun 2017 #1
Basically ANY JEW WHO LOVES ISRAEL IS NOT WELCOME !! Rustyeye77 Jun 2017 #2
no ANY Jew who has pride about being Jewish isn't welcome. mucifer Jun 2017 #11
Youre right. Rustyeye77 Jun 2017 #16
Or just any Jew marybourg Jun 2017 #15
"Zionism is an inherently white-supremacist ideology." Rustyeye77 Jun 2017 #5
I'm sure white supremacists cabot Jun 2017 #20
Well I for one am glad for this statement Sgent Jun 2017 #8
i'm half tempted to post a speech by Hitler Rustyeye77 Jun 2017 #27
This message was self-deleted by its author Squinch Jun 2017 #32
Apparently anti-semitism is of no concern to the dyke march organizers. stevenleser Jun 2017 #36
(Posted below.) WinkyDink Jun 2017 #40
The statement changed several times oberliner Jun 2017 #84
Let me get this straight cabot Jun 2017 #3
Its disgusting. "Tolerance" only if you're exactly what they want you to be. 7962 Jun 2017 #6
Probably not cabot Jun 2017 #10
+1000 smirkymonkey Jun 2017 #60
I need to read more on this to comment intelligently, but my gut reaction is sadness. LisaM Jun 2017 #101
If seeing a Jewish star "triggers" you, you've got serious problems with real life. 7962 Jun 2017 #4
Agreed cabot Jun 2017 #7
I'm a Chicago Jew who is not a zionist. mucifer Jun 2017 #9
Actually...you do get it. Rustyeye77 Jun 2017 #12
Because they are ignorant morons cabot Jun 2017 #13
Bigotry creates blindspots. boston bean Jun 2017 #19
I don't know how old you are leftynyc Jun 2017 #48
THIS! grossproffit Jun 2017 #66
Palestinians should have access to water. mucifer Jun 2017 #79
Absolutely oberliner Jun 2017 #85
Anti-Zionist opposition to the existence of the State of Israel. grossproffit Jun 2017 #93
Who here says no to that? leftynyc Jun 2017 #98
OBAMA: DENYING ISRAELS RIGHT TO EXIST AS A JEWISH HOMELAND IS ANTI-SEMITIC Mosby Jun 2017 #56
How anyone can NOT understand this is beyond comprehension. Anti-Zionism IS antisemitism. grossproffit Jun 2017 #99
Go march for gay pride in Palestine leftynyc Jun 2017 #14
Enjoy the fall from the rooftops cabot Jun 2017 #18
If they march in Palestine, they'll be looking around Yupster Jun 2017 #43
Damn right they would leftynyc Jun 2017 #47
Excellent point!!! nt 7962 Jun 2017 #45
This is pathetic. The leaders of the March should be fired or the March should be banned. writes3000 Jun 2017 #17
I agree with this. boston bean Jun 2017 #21
Yes. 100% cabot Jun 2017 #22
This message was self-deleted by its author Squinch Jun 2017 #30
The problem is conflation of Judaism with support for Israeli apartheid. DanTex Jun 2017 #23
So they said cabot Jun 2017 #24
Yeah that's what they said. I wasn't there so I can't say what really happened. DanTex Jun 2017 #26
But trashing the ONE Jewish leftynyc Jun 2017 #49
Why would it not be OK? It's a country and it is responsible for its policies. DanTex Jun 2017 #58
Did you see the flag that leftynyc Jun 2017 #62
I guess it comes down to whether the organizers are lying or not. I wasn't there, so I don't know. DanTex Jun 2017 #68
What it REALLY comes leftynyc Jun 2017 #100
How many times does it need leftynyc Jun 2017 #97
That's a lie oberliner Jun 2017 #53
Sure, maybe the organizers of the march are lying. I wasn't there. DanTex Jun 2017 #59
They are definitively lying and have changed their story oberliner Jun 2017 #83
Well, one of the women who was kicked out is a member of a pro-Israel activist group. DanTex Jun 2017 #90
Do you believe that Israel has no right to exist? grossproffit Jun 2017 #65
You dont want an answer to that. Rustyeye77 Jun 2017 #67
Really? You don't think that Israel has a right to exist? grossproffit Jun 2017 #69
I am a proud Zionist. I make no apologies. Rustyeye77 Jun 2017 #70
Me too! grossproffit Jun 2017 #73
Yes. I believe that both Israel and Palestine have a right to exist. DanTex Jun 2017 #71
This message was self-deleted by its author Orrex Jun 2017 #25
Wait, you're not a Jewish lesbian? Dr. Strange Jun 2017 #41
Imagine my surprise when I found out. Orrex Jun 2017 #46
Same here... LeftInTX Jun 2017 #44
Authority to comment? melman Jun 2017 #88
This message was self-deleted by its author Orrex Jun 2017 #92
Yeah it actually is melman Jun 2017 #102
This message was self-deleted by its author Orrex Jun 2017 #103
You know what? Orrex Jun 2017 #115
Jews are consistently marginalized, even by the left. We have a huge problem w/ antisemitism. grossproffit Jun 2017 #94
There seems to be a lot of issues with being intersectional lately. stevenleser Jun 2017 #28
This message was self-deleted by its author Squinch Jun 2017 #29
Is this a joke ?? Rustyeye77 Jun 2017 #31
This message was self-deleted by its author Squinch Jun 2017 #33
I apologize. When I originally clicked on the link, it sent me to some Vigilink shopping site. Not Squinch Jun 2017 #34
i would NEVER post a bogus link. Rustyeye77 Jun 2017 #35
No problem. Rustyeye77 Jun 2017 #37
Is that an order? Squinch Jun 2017 #38
No....a request. Rustyeye77 Jun 2017 #39
That happened to me once on my iPad. demmiblue Jun 2017 #50
That just happened to me twice on a NYTimes link in an o.p. here, Mc Mike Jul 2017 #124
EVEN THOUGH the "Arab Revolt" flag is WELCOME (red triangle, green, white, black), NEVER MIND that WinkyDink Jun 2017 #42
Did ANY of those imbeciles leftynyc Jun 2017 #51
I think you owe imbicles an apology. Rustyeye77 Jun 2017 #52
Could be leftynyc Jun 2017 #57
And the Palestinian flag is displayed prominently oberliner Jun 2017 #54
Shhhhh EllieBC Jun 2017 #75
This is what I was wondering... Zoonart Jun 2017 #55
Im a Lesbian But The Chicago Dyke March Doesnt Speak For Me Mosby Jun 2017 #61
Great post....thank you. Rustyeye77 Jun 2017 #63
Well put leftynyc Jun 2017 #64
"With brains" are the key words. Brava! grossproffit Jun 2017 #95
Activist group Jewish Voice for Peace were also at the gay parade in Chicago. They were part of the lunasun Jun 2017 #76
They are the kind of Jewish group that is acceptable oberliner Jun 2017 #77
That's the litmus test applied to us. EllieBC Jun 2017 #82
Yep Rustyeye77 Jun 2017 #104
I'm sure they love them. Rustyeye77 Jun 2017 #81
How stupid. That's why protests fail. Message dilution. Oneironaut Jun 2017 #72
Intersectionality oberliner Jun 2017 #78
Do you know what intersectionality actually means? Gravitycollapse Jun 2017 #86
Yes, it means a bunch of BS oberliner Jun 2017 #87
Yep. It is BS! grossproffit Jun 2017 #96
So I'll mark you down as not having a single clue what intersectionality means. Gravitycollapse Jun 2017 #105
Exactly oberliner Jun 2017 #106
Intersectionality is not a made up term. Gravitycollapse Jun 2017 #107
Yes, it is oberliner Jun 2017 #108
I'm a scholar on intersectionality. I don't need a lecture from you on the matter. Gravitycollapse Jun 2017 #109
Not giving a lecture oberliner Jun 2017 #110
Let me remind you that you claimed intersectionality was a made up buzzword. Gravitycollapse Jun 2017 #111
Thank you for your courteous and respectful response oberliner Jun 2017 #112
So sorry to disappoint. I don't roll over for the ignorant. Gravitycollapse Jun 2017 #113
"Zionists should be expelled from social justice movements" oberliner Jun 2017 #114
"Zionists should be expelled from social justice movements." Rustyeye77 Jun 2017 #116
Blatant antisemitism. I'm both ashamed and disgusted to see this being posted here. grossproffit Jun 2017 #118
Having been subject to actual antisemitism... Gravitycollapse Jun 2017 #123
Thinly veiled? It's not veiled at all. My statement speaks for itself. Gravitycollapse Jun 2017 #119
This is one of the most disgusting posts I've seen on this forum. grossproffit Jun 2017 #117
Do you support the atrocities committed by the Israeli government? Gravitycollapse Jun 2017 #120
Criticizing a government is one thing, denying a country the right to exist is another. grossproffit Jun 2017 #121
Interesting. I'm sure you hold that same standard for the people of Palestine. Gravitycollapse Jun 2017 #122
American flags aren't welcome either. They're triggered by the flag of the country they're in. grossproffit Jun 2017 #74
Apparently, only two flags are triggers, American and Israeli (of which there were none). Behind the Aegis Jun 2017 #89
Palestinian flags were plentiful oberliner Jun 2017 #91
As the Jewish father of a gay Jewish daughter who is proud of her faith and heritage, Still In Wisconsin Jun 2017 #80
 

Rustyeye77

(2,736 posts)
1. Chicago Dyke March Official Statement on 2017 March and Solidarity with Palestine
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 09:30 AM
Jun 2017

Chicago Dyke March Official Statement on 2017 March and Solidarity with Palestine



June 27, 2017


On June 24th, 2017, a small group of individuals were asked to leave Chicago Dyke March for expressing Zionist views that go directly against the march’s anti-racist core values. In the days following, articles have appeared in a number of major news outlets that put forward false reports based on testimony that is purposefully misleading. We wish to clarify the circumstances under which organizers and community members alike asked the group to leave.

The group in question was heard disrupting chants, replacing the word “Palestine” with “everywhere,” saying: “From everywhere to Mexico, border walls have got to go.” One of the individuals, Laurel Grauer, is the Regional Director of A Wider Bridge, an organization with ties to the Israeli government that was protested for pinkwashing at the Creating Change Conference in Chicago in 2016. It was later revealed that Laurel was aware of Dyke March’s anti-Zionist position from pro-Palestine memes and art that were posted on the Dyke March page, and was also aware of the fact that her flag could be interpreted as being at odds with that position. The night before, she contacted an organizer to ask if her flag would “be protested.” The organizer told her the flag was welcome, but reminded her that the space is one that supports Palestinian rights.


Upon arrival at the rally location in Piotrowski Park, Palestinian marchers approached those carrying the flags to learn more about their intentions, due to its similarity to the Israeli flag and the flag’s long history of use in Pinkwashing efforts. During the conversation, the individuals asserted their Zionist stance and support for Israel. At this point, Jewish allies and Dyke March organizers stepped in to help explain why Zionism was unacceptable at the march. There was an earnest attempt at engagement with these marchers, and the decision to ask them to leave was not made abruptly nor arbitrarily. Throughout a two-hour conversation, the individuals were told that the march was explicitly anti-Zionist, and that if they were not okay with that, they should leave.


Zionism is an inherently white-supremacist ideology. It is based on the premise that Jewish people have a God-given entitlement to the lands of historic Palestine and the surrounding areas. This ideology has been used to justify dozens of laws that discriminate against Palestinian citizens of Israel, segregated road systems in the West Bank, and forced removal of Palestinian families from their homes in order to make way for Jewish-only housing, among other violent and discriminatory practices. We recognize that Zionism is not synonymous with Judaism, but instead represents an ideology that uses legacies of Jewish struggle to justify violence.

Chicago Dyke March Collective is a grassroots mobilization and celebration of dyke, queer, bisexual, and transgender resilience. Our priority is to ensure a safer space for those who are most marginalized. We welcome and include people of all identities, but not all ideologies. We believe in creating a space free from oppression, and that involves rejecting racist ideologies that support state violence. We welcome the support we have received from Jewish allies and marchers who are as invested in liberation as we are.

The threats that have been made to Chicago Dyke March and its organizers by Zionists worldwide does not even compare to the violence that Palestinians endure on a daily basis while living under Israeli military rule in the name of Zionism. Palestine is being occupied by Israeli military forces, and at the time of writing, Gaza is currently being bombed. This is what we as a collective are most concerned with. Palestinians deserve to live free from violence, and Dyke March will continue to fight for Palestinians alongside all other oppressed communities around the world.

mucifer

(23,371 posts)
11. no ANY Jew who has pride about being Jewish isn't welcome.
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 09:43 AM
Jun 2017

There was no zionism in the flag. It was not an Israeli flag.

 

Rustyeye77

(2,736 posts)
5. "Zionism is an inherently white-supremacist ideology."
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 09:40 AM
Jun 2017

oh...So Zionism is RACISM....

there more things change....

Sgent

(5,857 posts)
8. Well I for one am glad for this statement
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 09:42 AM
Jun 2017

as I wasn't sure previously if the Dyke march was made up of idiots or anti-semites. Now I know. I especially like how they blame "Zionists worldwide" for being upset.

 

Rustyeye77

(2,736 posts)
27. i'm half tempted to post a speech by Hitler
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 10:06 AM
Jun 2017

who said the exact same things about jews.

Will I be in trouble if I do that ??

Response to Rustyeye77 (Reply #1)

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
36. Apparently anti-semitism is of no concern to the dyke march organizers.
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 10:26 AM
Jun 2017

To me, antisemitism is a much more clear cut issue that anyone protesting discrimination and inequality should be concerned about. I am Jewish and very unhappy about the treatment of Palestinians but to be completely uninterested in antisemitism and completely one sided about the Israeli-Palestinian issue doesn't make sense at all. Unless you are an anti-semite.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
84. The statement changed several times
Fri Jun 30, 2017, 05:18 AM
Jun 2017

First it was just about the flag, which they (falsely) claimed was an Israeli flag superimposed.

Then it was that they "asserted their Zionist stance" (which by the way, only came up because the people kicked them out asked them if they were Zionist).

Then they added the "disrupting chants" BS - which was never given as a reason for why they were expelled.

cabot

(724 posts)
3. Let me get this straight
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 09:39 AM
Jun 2017

Bear with me, I'm sorely lacking in caffeine at the moment.

For years, people who have protested Israel's policies say, "We're not anti-Semitic; we're anti-Zionist." Okay. Got it. Last week, gay Jewish people tried to march in the parade with rainbow flags affixed with the Star of David...and we're told they were Zionists. What policy of Israel were they promoting? They were just gay people proud to be Jewish marching with rainbow flags with the Star of David on them. They weren't promoting an agenda.

Seems to me that the organizers of the Dyke March were being anti-Semitic. I could understand gay Jews being asked to leave a march if they were carrying signs in support of Zionism, in support of settlements - but they weren't.

I'm SO fucking sick of people on the left shitting on Jewish people, and then saying "We're not anti-Semitic, we're anti-Zionists" only to continue to shit on Jewish people by doing asking them to leave parades, accusing them of "pinkwashing" things, etc.

I will say we Jews do bring anti-Semitic people together - on the left and the right - so I guess we have that going for us. *copiousamountsofsarcasmhere*

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
6. Its disgusting. "Tolerance" only if you're exactly what they want you to be.
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 09:42 AM
Jun 2017

How DARE someone be Jewish and proud of it!!
Bet they would have no problem with a rainbow flag and a palestinian symbol imprinted on it, huh?

cabot

(724 posts)
10. Probably not
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 09:43 AM
Jun 2017

They are useful idiots.

Edited to remove "Sad." Seemed too Trump-like..and I couldn't live with myself if I sounded Trump-like.

LisaM

(27,758 posts)
101. I need to read more on this to comment intelligently, but my gut reaction is sadness.
Fri Jun 30, 2017, 12:17 PM
Jun 2017

For years, gays fought hard to get representation in various St. Patrick's Day parades, and were often dismissed because people didn't get that there was a reason for gays to be proudly Irish. I frankly don't see the difference here. Bear with me, because I'm sure this is a nuanced issue that I could read more about, particularly as it concerns the parties involved, but I do recall the shoe being on the opposite foot, so to speak with the St. Patrick's Day parades.

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
4. If seeing a Jewish star "triggers" you, you've got serious problems with real life.
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 09:39 AM
Jun 2017

What a bunch of horseshit. Every day that goes by, this population is getting less and less able to take care of living in an actual society. How much discrimination have Jews AND gays been subject to over the years? And even today? So a gay Jew now has to be ashamed of the fact they're Jews? BULLSHIT

mucifer

(23,371 posts)
9. I'm a Chicago Jew who is not a zionist.
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 09:42 AM
Jun 2017

What happened in Chicago makes me so angry. I understand the anti zionist feelings. I have those, too. If it was an Israeli flag I'd actually be ok with them turning away the zionist marchers. But, it wasn't a zionist flag.

How can the organizers not understand they are being anti-Semitic?

I don't get it.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
48. I don't know how old you are
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 11:40 AM
Jun 2017

but it's time you realized that anti-Zionism has been used as a cloak for repulsive anti-semites for a very, very long time. Almost 70 years.

mucifer

(23,371 posts)
79. Palestinians should have access to water.
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 06:57 PM
Jun 2017

Not everyone who isn't a zionist is an anti semite.

There are some of us Jews who aren't zionists. Some call us self hating Jews. I think Palestinians should have rights, too.



 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
85. Absolutely
Fri Jun 30, 2017, 05:21 AM
Jun 2017

And there are marches in support of those Palestinian rights that take place all over the world, including the US.

Not sure how that is relevant to this story, though.

grossproffit

(5,591 posts)
93. Anti-Zionist opposition to the existence of the State of Israel.
Fri Jun 30, 2017, 11:28 AM
Jun 2017

There are many countries that I don't agree with policy wise but I'd never deny their existence.

Anti-Zionism IS antisemitism.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
98. Who here says no to that?
Fri Jun 30, 2017, 12:06 PM
Jun 2017

What the fuck does that have to do with a Jewish AMERICAN getting tossed for having a Star of Danid on a rainbow flag. I think gays should have rights...perhaps I should consider the crescent symbol repulsive because of how gays are treated in Muslim countries. Same Fucking thing.

Mosby

(16,160 posts)
56. OBAMA: DENYING ISRAELS RIGHT TO EXIST AS A JEWISH HOMELAND IS ANTI-SEMITIC
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 12:31 PM
Jun 2017

"I think a good baseline is: Do you think that Israel has a right to exist as a homeland for the Jewish people, and are you aware of the particular circumstances of Jewish history that might prompt that need and desire? And if your answer is no, if your notion is somehow that that history doesn’t matter, then that’s a problem, in my mind. If, on the other hand, you acknowledge the justness of the Jewish homeland, you acknowledge the active presence of anti-Semitism—that it’s not just something in the past, but it is current—if you acknowledge that there are people and nations that, if convenient, would do the Jewish people harm because of a warped ideology. If you acknowledge those things, then you should be able to align yourself with Israel where its security is at stake, you should be able to align yourself with Israel when it comes to making sure that it is not held to a double standard in international fora, you should align yourself with Israel when it comes to making sure that it is not isolated."

Essentially, Obama defined anti-Zionism—as distinct from sharp, public criticism of Israel and its policies—as anti-Semitism. In his construction, denying Israel’s right to exist (i.e. Zionism) is to deny the lessons of history and betray a deeply flawed moral outlook. In making this case, Obama joins other world leaders like British Prime Minister David Cameron and French Prime Minister Manuel Valls—both, like him, critics of Israeli settlements and advocates for a two-state solution—who have pointedly labeled anti-Zionism as anti-Semitism. Likewise, Obama’s words accord with the U.S. State Department’s official definition of anti-Semitism, which includes “denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, and denying Israel the right to exist.”

http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/191196/obama-denying-israels-right-to-exist-as-a-jewish-homeland-is-anti-semitic


Anti-Israel Sentiment Predicts Anti-Semitism in Europe

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0022002706289184



Anti-Zionism and Anti-Semitism

Robert Wistrich*

Anti-Zionism has become the most dangerous and effective form of anti- Semitism in our time, through its systematic delegitimization, defamation, and demonization of Israel. Although not a priori anti-Semitic, the calls to dismantle the Jewish state, whether they come from Muslims, the Left, or the radical Right, increasingly rely on an anti-Semitic stereotypization of classic themes, such as the manipulative "Jewish lobby," the Jewish/Zionist "world conspiracy," and Jewish/Israeli "warmongers." One major driving force of this anti-Zionism/anti-Semitism is the transformation of the Palestinian cause into a "holy war"; another source is anti-Americanism linked with fundamentalist Islamism. In the current context, classic conspiracy theories, such as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, are enjoying a spectacular revival. The common denominator of the new anti-Zionism has been the systematic effort to criminalize Israeli and Jewish behavior, so as to place it beyond the pale of civilized and acceptable conduct.

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-wistrich-f04.htm

*Robert Solomon Wistrich (April 7, 1945 – May 19, 2015) was the Erich Neuberger Professor of European and Jewish history at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, and the head of the University's Vidal Sassoon International Center for the Study of Antisemitism. According to Indiana University, Wistrich was "a leading scholar of the history of antisemitism."[1]

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
14. Go march for gay pride in Palestine
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 09:46 AM
Jun 2017

And see if you manage to walk out of there alive. Then we'll talk about why the Star of David gets their panties in a twist.

cabot

(724 posts)
18. Enjoy the fall from the rooftops
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 09:48 AM
Jun 2017

Unbelievable. The one ally gay people have in the middle east and these idiots...I can't even finish my thought.

Yupster

(14,308 posts)
43. If they march in Palestine, they'll be looking around
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 10:42 AM
Jun 2017

hoping to see that Jewish star coming to rescue them.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
47. Damn right they would
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 11:38 AM
Jun 2017

They'd be lucky if their heads were still attached to their necks at the end of the day.

writes3000

(4,734 posts)
17. This is pathetic. The leaders of the March should be fired or the March should be banned.
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 09:47 AM
Jun 2017

It's intolerant bigotry and it should be allowed.

Response to writes3000 (Reply #17)

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
23. The problem is conflation of Judaism with support for Israeli apartheid.
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 09:51 AM
Jun 2017

Obviously, if anyone at a Gay Pride march, or any other march for that matter, wants to display pride for their religion or ethnicity or anything else, it would be a reprehensible act of bigotry to kick them out.

But according to the march organizers, the people expelled were voicing support for the policies of the Isreali government towards the Palestinians, going so far as to disrupt chants. The organizers also told the people that their flags were welcome, but vocally opposing the rights of Palestinians was not.

cabot

(724 posts)
24. So they said
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 09:54 AM
Jun 2017

once the story leaked. Sorry - I don't buy a few people attending a march, only to decide to vocalize opposition at Palestinians. It isn't logical.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
26. Yeah that's what they said. I wasn't there so I can't say what really happened.
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 10:00 AM
Jun 2017

It does seem to make more sense to me that this was about Israel/Palestine issues rather than it being flat-out bigotry. But you're right, the organizers could be lying. And yeah, if they just banned anyone with a Star of David, or any other kind of expression of Jewish pride, or for that matter any expression of pride for any religion or ethnicity or whatever, that would be horribly bigoted.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
49. But trashing the ONE Jewish
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 11:42 AM
Jun 2017

state was perfectly okay. All the anti-gay behavior of ALL of Israeli's neighbors, including Palestine, doesn't make this assholes blink but the sight of the Star of David gets their panties in a twist. They're no better than stormfront.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
58. Why would it not be OK? It's a country and it is responsible for its policies.
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 12:45 PM
Jun 2017

I know you disagree, but there are many progressives who feel that Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is tantamount to apartheid. It wasn't the Star of David that got them kicked out, it was the fact that they were disrupting a chant against border walls because the chant included Palestine in it as well as Mexico.

Look, agree or disagree about border walls, about I/P, that's fine. But if you go to a march and start advocating for things that are in opposition to things that the organizers of the march have explicitly stated they are marching for, its not surprising they got kicked out.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
62. Did you see the flag that
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 01:02 PM
Jun 2017

got the woman told to leave? It was NOT an Israeli flag so you can stop pushing that pathetic bullshit with me. It was a Star of David on a rainbow flag. And I happen to think the organizers are LIARS for saying they were talking about Israel AT ALL. Perhaps they should be more concerned with the treatment of gays in Muslim countries like Palestine than showing what hypocrites they are. Just a suggestion.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
68. I guess it comes down to whether the organizers are lying or not. I wasn't there, so I don't know.
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 01:19 PM
Jun 2017
 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
100. What it REALLY comes
Fri Jun 30, 2017, 12:09 PM
Jun 2017

down to is whether you think it would be okay for anyone to find the crescent symbol repulsive because of how gays are treated in Muslim countries...so repulsive that you would think someone was justified in tossing anyone using it at a gay event. Or explain how it's not the same fucking thing.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
97. How many times does it need
Fri Jun 30, 2017, 12:02 PM
Jun 2017

to be pointed out that it WASN'T an Israeli flag? It was a rainbow flag with the Star of David. These people behaved atrociously and if you don't think so think how it would have gone over is a crescent on the rainbow flag was considered disgusting because of how EVERY Muslim country has being gay against he law and gays are routinely beaten and killed? Would you have been so sanguine about my disgust for that?

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
53. That's a lie
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 12:20 PM
Jun 2017

The people expelled did not voice support for the policies of the Israeli government towards the Palestinians and did not disrupt chants.
Read their own account and those of witnesses. The only reason given for the expulsion (at the time) was the flag. The "disrupting chants" and other nonsense is something they added later and is not supported by any evidence.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
59. Sure, maybe the organizers of the march are lying. I wasn't there.
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 12:50 PM
Jun 2017

If they are lying, and they simply banned displays of the Star of David, then of course that's extremely offensive.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
83. They are definitively lying and have changed their story
Fri Jun 30, 2017, 04:09 AM
Jun 2017

This is what they said initially:

"Yesterday during the rally we saw three individuals carrying Israeli flags super imposed on rainbow flags. Some folks say they are Jewish Pride flags. But as a Collective we are very much pro-Palestine, and when we see these flags we know a lot of folks who are under attack by Israel see the visuals of the flag as a threat, so we don't want anything in the [Dyke March] space that can inadvertently or advertently express Zionism," she said. "So we asked the folks to please leave. We told them people in the space were feeling threatened."

The first sentence is a lie - as the flags they were carrying were not "Israeli flags super imposed on rainbow flags" (you can look at photos of the flags in question to see that for yourself).

Secondly, the statement very clearly said that the reason the folks were asked to leave was because of the "visuals of the flag" making people feel threatened.

Nothing about "disrupting chants" or anything of that nature. Those excuses were added later. (Even their second statement on the subject did not mention this).

This initial statement about the flag being the reason for asking the people to leave comports directly with the other statements from the people themselves who identify the flag as the only reason given for their expulsion.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
90. Well, one of the women who was kicked out is a member of a pro-Israel activist group.
Fri Jun 30, 2017, 08:12 AM
Jun 2017

So I have pretty serious doubts that she was just showing her Jewish pride, as opposed to making a pro-Israel counter-protest.

Sure, their initial statement didn't include as much information as their later, longer statement. And it's arguable whether that flag is the Israeli flag super-imposed on a rainbow flag. The Israeli flag does, in fact, have a Star of David right in the middle of it, which, unfortunately, means that every flag with a Star of David in the middle of it is going to look like an Israeli flag. I guess the people who designed that flag didn't think that about the issues that could arise when conflating a nation with a religion.

Still, do you really think the organizers just made up the fact that they talked to the activists the day before and told them it would be fine to participate as long as they didn't do any anti-Palestinian advocacy? Do you really doubt that a committed pro-Israel activist would interrupt a chant calling for the Israeli border wall to come down? Let's be serious.

Response to Rustyeye77 (Original post)

 

melman

(7,681 posts)
88. Authority to comment?
Fri Jun 30, 2017, 05:59 AM
Jun 2017

What kind of bullshit is that?

The march organizers are antisemitic assholes. And also liars.

There. That was easy. No special 'authority' needed.

Response to melman (Reply #88)

Response to melman (Reply #102)

grossproffit

(5,591 posts)
94. Jews are consistently marginalized, even by the left. We have a huge problem w/ antisemitism.
Fri Jun 30, 2017, 11:30 AM
Jun 2017

It's disgusting to see.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
28. There seems to be a lot of issues with being intersectional lately.
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 10:08 AM
Jun 2017

In their effort to not be anti-Palestinian, they succeeded in being anti-Semitic.

Response to Rustyeye77 (Original post)

Response to Rustyeye77 (Reply #31)

Squinch

(50,773 posts)
34. I apologize. When I originally clicked on the link, it sent me to some Vigilink shopping site. Not
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 10:23 AM
Jun 2017

sure why. Now it is liking to the story.

I apologize.

demmiblue

(36,743 posts)
50. That happened to me once on my iPad.
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 11:42 AM
Jun 2017

The link was legitimate, but it redirected me to that same site.

Mc Mike

(9,106 posts)
124. That just happened to me twice on a NYTimes link in an o.p. here,
Sat Jul 1, 2017, 08:52 AM
Jul 2017

and I noticed other sub post-ers weren't having the same problem.

 

WinkyDink

(51,311 posts)
42. EVEN THOUGH the "Arab Revolt" flag is WELCOME (red triangle, green, white, black), NEVER MIND that
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 10:38 AM
Jun 2017

we have been/are at war with some countries represented (Iraq; Syria) and have been the victim of TERRORISM by at least one other (Libya and Pan Am 103)!

"Flags inspired by that of the Arab revolt include those of Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Kuwait, Sudan, Syria, the United Arab Emirates, Yemen, Palestine, Somaliland, the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic and Libya."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_Arab_Revolt

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
51. Did ANY of those imbeciles
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 11:46 AM
Jun 2017

who couldn't stand the sight of the Star of David think for one minute what would happen to them if they tried that march in ANY of those countries?

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
57. Could be
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 12:35 PM
Jun 2017

They probably don't even realize what pathetic hypocrites they are. Calling them mere assholes is giving them too much credit.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
54. And the Palestinian flag is displayed prominently
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 12:24 PM
Jun 2017

In spite of the abysmal treatment of LGBT people by the Palestinians.

EllieBC

(2,959 posts)
75. Shhhhh
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 01:48 PM
Jun 2017

You aren't allowed to point that out. Or their abysmal treatment of women either. Clearly if the Jews would just fall into the ocean, they would suddenly become openminded fair people with a shining human rights record.

Zoonart

(11,748 posts)
55. This is what I was wondering...
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 12:27 PM
Jun 2017

If the "Arab Revolt" flag was allowed, why not the Star of David. Where then, is the trigger?

The left always shoots itself in the foot with turf wars about ownership of the various civil rights and civil liberties movements. Who is pure enough to be included and who is not? Are blacks discriminating against whites who want to take part in BLM rallies, Dykes discriminating against Jews in order to not offend Arab Dykes, Bernie supporters vs. Hillary supporters,... you get the picture.

Not unlike the Bernie primary voter who is running for office as a Democrat in a Primary and wanted to attend a REVOLUTION meeting
and was kicked out because he had voted for Hilary in the General.

https://www.facebook.com/annklefstad?fref=nf&pnref=story

Mosby

(16,160 posts)
61. Im a Lesbian But The Chicago Dyke March Doesnt Speak For Me
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 12:59 PM
Jun 2017

It feels strange to be angry at people marching for human rights, especially when their cause is so near and dear to my wife, son and me. But last Saturday, three Jewish individuals were banned from participating in the Dyke March Chicago. Their crime? Carrying rainbow pride flags with the star of David.

When I learned that the organizers’ decision to ask them to leave was based on the participants’ apparent affiliation with the State of Israel, I felt uneasy. Because as a Zionist, gay woman, I can easily recognize good old anti-Semitism masked by the cloak of anti-Zionism. Never mind hijacking an important cause to promote a one-sided political agenda.

Making matters worse, the parade edited its Facebook post to “make clear that anti-Zionist Jewish volunteers and supporters are welcome at Dyke March.”

Thank you very much, but what gives the parade organizers the right to decide which Jews are and are not welcome, and to incorrectly define Zionism while they’re at it? This stance is offensive, ignorant and a misuse of a platform. Furthermore, in an event that pleads for recognition and inclusion, the only message I got was that someone like me would have had to sit out. And that doesn’t feel right.

The activist group Jewish Voice for Peace is publicly defending the Dyke March, and has pointed out that other Jews at the march, wearing Jewish symbols, including Stars of David, t-shirts with Hebrew, kippot, and sashes with Yiddish script, were not asked to leave. But I say, bullshit.

By definition, Zionism is the belief that Jews should have a homeland in the historic Land of Israel. Being a Zionist doesn’t make one pro-settlement, pro-wall, anti-Palestinian or a racist. But being against Zionism means you oppose Israel’s right to exist. Period.


http://www.kveller.com/im-a-lesbian-but-the-chicago-dyke-march-doesnt-speak-for-me

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
64. Well put
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 01:09 PM
Jun 2017

People have been using anti-Zionism to cloak their pathetic anti semitism for a very long time. They're not fooling anyone with brains.

EllieBC

(2,959 posts)
82. That's the litmus test applied to us.
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 08:18 PM
Jun 2017

We are only acceptable if we aren't zionists. Oh, can't be religious either. Basically have to be a cute and funny Jew who has preferably never set foot in a synagogue and who is also useful and will show up for every cause du jour but carefully ignore all antisemitism so as to not anger our "allies".

Oneironaut

(5,461 posts)
72. How stupid. That's why protests fail. Message dilution.
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 01:25 PM
Jun 2017

A march should always have a defined focus. If this was an LGBT march, it should stay that way. It shouldn't be an "LGBT Free-Palestine Save-The-Whales Impeach-Trump" march. Keeping a singular focus prevents marches from having muddied or conflicting messages.

The march organizers are free to set up another protest against Israel if they want. Trying to inject another purpose into their march seems is pretty cheap if not deceptive.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
106. Exactly
Fri Jun 30, 2017, 05:56 PM
Jun 2017

Please put me in the category of someone who doesn't think a nonsensical term that someone made up in the late 1980s is actually something that has any meaning other than the meaning people choose to bring to it.

In this case, removing Jews from the category of oppressed persons (unless they are anti-Zionist).

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
107. Intersectionality is not a made up term.
Fri Jun 30, 2017, 06:05 PM
Jun 2017

It defines an actual sociological phenomenon--there are intersecting identities that are each situated along continuums of power. The concept of intersectionality was first used to provide a feminist critique that made greater account for race.

Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's "nonsensical." Your willful ignorance is duly noted.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
108. Yes, it is
Fri Jun 30, 2017, 06:09 PM
Jun 2017

Here's an article that might help you understand the issue:

It’s Time for Intersectionality to Include the Jews

For the last several days, leftist activist Linda Sarsour has dominated my Facebook feed. In an interview with The Nation, Sarsour insinuated that the feminist movement ought to exclude Zionists. The interview has stoked a larger conversation about the leadership positions of people like Sarsour, who has long advocated for economic warfare (BDS) against Israel, and Rasmea Odeh, a convicted terrorist who actively participated in the murder of two Jewish students at Hebrew University, in intersectional justice movements in America.

Yet again, progressive Jewish activists have been left wondering whether or not we have a place in those movements. We dealt with some of the same questions after the Movement for Black Lives came out with its own platform that falsely accused Israel of “genocide,” and we will undoubtedly confront these issues many times in the future. At the end of the day, however, no matter what the Sarsours of the world say, Jewish issues do belong in the intersectional justice movement. That’s because anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism are both serious intersectional problems, and any truly intersectional movement ought to tackle them.

The problem is not intersectional theory. It’s intersectional activists who fail to adhere to it.

http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/227837/its-time-for-intersectionality-to-include-the-jews

That last sentence of the excerpt is the key to the point I am making. The problem is not the concept - the problem is that people define it however they want to define it. In the case of the issues raised in the OP, it is with relation to excluding Jews.

At least try to be open minded enough to understand how this all ties together.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
109. I'm a scholar on intersectionality. I don't need a lecture from you on the matter.
Fri Jun 30, 2017, 06:19 PM
Jun 2017

Jewish identity is part of intersectional theory and praxis. You're just furthering a right-wing talking point by trying to make it seem like leftist academics and activists are antisemitic.

Don't trash things you don't understand. Every once in a while, you'll come across someone who can see through your ignorance.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
110. Not giving a lecture
Fri Jun 30, 2017, 06:29 PM
Jun 2017

Just asking if you'd be willing to take a look at the article and think about the issues raised from the perspective of a young Jewish college student who is wrestling with some of these questions.

I also don't appreciate the rude, smug comments that you seem to be repeating for some reason with every post.

As a self-proclaimed scholar, I would think that you would appreciate the opportunity to think about these questions more deeply rather than just casually and predictably throwing out the "antisemitic" card.

Since you have decided, apparently, to not read the article, at least have a look at this second to last paragraph:

"The intersectional discourse has empowered activists to form crucial coalitions, center severely marginalized voices, and establish united fronts against formidable enemies. Intersectional movements can generate great solidarity and progress. And yet, activists are allowing the value of these movements to be undermined by a handful of people determined to leverage these causes to promote hatred and exclusion."

Maybe you can learn something from an open-minded college student who has some pretty well-thought out insights to share.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
111. Let me remind you that you claimed intersectionality was a made up buzzword.
Fri Jun 30, 2017, 06:41 PM
Jun 2017

Just because I'm a scholar does not mean I take accusations like that lightly. If you want have a meaningful conversation on intersectionality, the first thing you should avoid is dismissing it outright. Are you legitimately going to make a 180 on your own statements and then accuse me of being close-minded? Spare me.

As an intersectional feminist, I condemn the expulsion of jewish lesbians from a pride march simply because they had a flag with the Star of David on it. I will not condemn the movement for expelling zionists.

You don't get to be an advocate for a "proper" form of intersectionality only a few posts after you dismissed it outright. Fess up to the fact that you were arrogantly ignorant on the subject and then we can have a conversation. But don't forget, you apparently have just now learned what intersectionality means. I am head and shoulders above you in my knowledge and I'm not going to sit here and let you crap all over a concept you barely grasp.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
112. Thank you for your courteous and respectful response
Fri Jun 30, 2017, 07:02 PM
Jun 2017

It is an admirable trait in a scholar to show deference and respect to others, even those with whom they may disagree.

The fact that you support "expelling Zionists" is at the core of the problem that I am identifying.

Now that I understand where you are coming from on that score, your refusal to read and discuss the article I suggested makes a lot more sense.

It seemed weird, at first, that a scholar would not want to engage in that way, but I get it now.

That fact that you openly espouse your view that gay Zionist Jews ought to be "expelled" from a pride march indicates to me that any further conversation will be largely fruitless.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
113. So sorry to disappoint. I don't roll over for the ignorant.
Fri Jun 30, 2017, 07:29 PM
Jun 2017

You must have a warped view of academics because we don't show "deference" to people who clearly have a bigger ego than their education justifies.

You can try and spin this whatever way you want. You dug your own grave with your posts. You literally dismissed intersectionality as a made up buzzword and now all of a sudden you're its champion? Again, spare me.

Zionists should be expelled from social justice movements. They condone the illegal occupation of foreign territory and they support an Israeli government that has abused and isolated millions of Palestinians and murdered countless more.

I did read the article, btw. The authors claim that anti-Zionism and antisemitism are "inextricably interlinked" is utter nonsense and is no more accurate than the claim that rejection of IS is anti-Islam or the rejection of the Christian crusades is anti-Christian. At issue is not the existence of a religio-cultural identity but the conditions under which that identity is used to justify atrocities. That is what drives the movement for a free Palestine.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
114. "Zionists should be expelled from social justice movements"
Fri Jun 30, 2017, 07:48 PM
Jun 2017

Thank you for your honesty and forthrightness.

If you have no compunction about saying: "Zionists should be expelled from social justice movements" then that pretty much ends our discussion.

 

Rustyeye77

(2,736 posts)
116. "Zionists should be expelled from social justice movements."
Fri Jun 30, 2017, 08:15 PM
Jun 2017

Really? That's quite a statement.

Not too thinly veiled. Why its allowed that to stand is beyond me.


Please don't respond....that sentence says it all.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
123. Having been subject to actual antisemitism...
Fri Jun 30, 2017, 09:48 PM
Jun 2017

I can assure you that what I'm saying is not antisemitic. But I guess you've given the standard response to anyone who dares challenge the atrocities of the Israeli government.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
119. Thinly veiled? It's not veiled at all. My statement speaks for itself.
Fri Jun 30, 2017, 08:19 PM
Jun 2017

Those who want to steal the land of others and then isolate and kill them into oblivion are classically colonialists. I applaud Israelis and Jews across the globe who reject the atrocities committed by the Israeli government.

Behind the Aegis

(53,823 posts)
89. Apparently, only two flags are triggers, American and Israeli (of which there were none).
Fri Jun 30, 2017, 06:01 AM
Jun 2017

But, it seems, countries where GLBT people are murdered BY the government, well, those are OK.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
91. Palestinian flags were plentiful
Fri Jun 30, 2017, 08:24 AM
Jun 2017

And apparently bullying those with Jewish stars on the flags is OK but having the actual stars on the flags is a trigger.

 

Still In Wisconsin

(4,450 posts)
80. As the Jewish father of a gay Jewish daughter who is proud of her faith and heritage,
Thu Jun 29, 2017, 07:19 PM
Jun 2017

I'd like to say that's effed up.

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