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Sat Jul 1, 2017, 11:32 AM

Just spit balling but what can we do to put Hillary into her rightful place that is the White House?

It is becoming more and more clear that the election was dirty and that Trump is not
a legitimate President so can we stop playing nice and hit the streets in a massive #s if
it is proven that Trump, the Republicans, and the Russians worked to rig the election?

I know there is no Constitutional mechanism for such a move but things have changed
and the will of the American people should be followed. Let's start on the 4th this year
to make it a "real day of liberty and freedom."

This was an act of war by a hostile foreign power.

It was a coup.

And we had treason. Mitch and Paul Ryan i'm looking @ you.

119 replies, 7329 views

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Arrow 119 replies Author Time Post
Reply Just spit balling but what can we do to put Hillary into her rightful place that is the White House? (Original post)
Botany Jul 2017 OP
Wounded Bear Jul 2017 #1
Hoyt Jul 2017 #64
Kilgore Jul 2017 #74
delisen Jul 2017 #91
Bohunk68 Jul 2017 #98
Wounded Bear Jul 2017 #117
delisen Jul 2017 #119
The Velveteen Ocelot Jul 2017 #2
delisen Jul 2017 #93
The Velveteen Ocelot Jul 2017 #115
delisen Jul 2017 #118
MineralMan Jul 2017 #3
lunamagica Jul 2017 #33
MineralMan Jul 2017 #35
lunamagica Jul 2017 #39
MineralMan Jul 2017 #41
Kilgore Jul 2017 #109
delisen Jul 2017 #94
MineralMan Jul 2017 #106
boston bean Jul 2017 #4
Yupster Jul 2017 #6
Botany Jul 2017 #7
Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #11
boston bean Jul 2017 #45
Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #47
boston bean Jul 2017 #48
Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #62
onenote Jul 2017 #65
delisen Jul 2017 #95
lunamagica Jul 2017 #34
The Velveteen Ocelot Jul 2017 #43
onenote Jul 2017 #69
rock Jul 2017 #44
rzemanfl Jul 2017 #54
DesertRat Jul 2017 #82
FakeNoose Jul 2017 #5
Kentonio Jul 2017 #101
FakeNoose Jul 2017 #114
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #8
Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #9
FBaggins Jul 2017 #10
oasis Jul 2017 #100
brooklynite Jul 2017 #12
LaydeeBug Jul 2017 #13
Botany Jul 2017 #14
LaydeeBug Jul 2017 #16
longship Jul 2017 #15
Botany Jul 2017 #18
longship Jul 2017 #20
procon Jul 2017 #26
Bradical79 Jul 2017 #58
delisen Jul 2017 #92
delisen Jul 2017 #99
onenote Jul 2017 #112
loyalsister Jul 2017 #17
Trial_By_Fire Jul 2017 #19
longship Jul 2017 #21
Trial_By_Fire Jul 2017 #23
longship Jul 2017 #24
Trial_By_Fire Jul 2017 #27
longship Jul 2017 #30
Trial_By_Fire Jul 2017 #37
longship Jul 2017 #42
boston bean Jul 2017 #50
Trial_By_Fire Jul 2017 #52
onenote Jul 2017 #60
unblock Jul 2017 #67
Trial_By_Fire Jul 2017 #68
mythology Jul 2017 #22
karynnj Jul 2017 #28
diva77 Jul 2017 #80
karynnj Jul 2017 #25
jontheactor Jul 2017 #87
Tatiana Jul 2017 #29
onenote Jul 2017 #38
Tatiana Jul 2017 #40
KingCharlemagne Jul 2017 #55
onenote Jul 2017 #57
lunamagica Jul 2017 #31
Warpy Jul 2017 #32
Nevernose Jul 2017 #36
leftstreet Jul 2017 #49
Raine Jul 2017 #46
XRubicon Jul 2017 #51
applegrove Jul 2017 #53
Bradical79 Jul 2017 #56
Agschmid Jul 2017 #59
tazkcmo Jul 2017 #61
The Velveteen Ocelot Jul 2017 #71
Alice11111 Jul 2017 #63
Not Ruth Jul 2017 #66
lapucelle Jul 2017 #70
TDale313 Jul 2017 #72
Golden Raisin Jul 2017 #73
Takket Jul 2017 #75
Loki Liesmith Jul 2017 #76
dlk Jul 2017 #77
delisen Jul 2017 #97
iamateacher Jul 2017 #78
elocs Jul 2017 #79
TXCritter Jul 2017 #81
onenote Jul 2017 #89
TXCritter Jul 2017 #107
WoonTars Jul 2017 #83
Volaris Jul 2017 #84
onenote Jul 2017 #88
Volaris Jul 2017 #90
forthemiddle Jul 2017 #104
Ace Rothstein Jul 2017 #116
delisen Jul 2017 #96
onenote Jul 2017 #113
potone Jul 2017 #85
DBoon Jul 2017 #86
no_hypocrisy Jul 2017 #102
OliverQ Jul 2017 #103
Mike Nelson Jul 2017 #105
onenote Jul 2017 #110
Mike Nelson Jul 2017 #111
aikoaiko Jul 2017 #108

Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 11:37 AM

1. Let go of it...it's over.

Let's work on the possible, which is flipping the House in 2018

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Response to Wounded Bear (Reply #1)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 08:34 PM

64. +100000000000

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Response to Wounded Bear (Reply #1)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 10:04 PM

74. + 1Bazillion

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Response to Wounded Bear (Reply #1)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 06:20 AM

91. and why do you think 2018 will have fair elections?

We accepted unfairness in presidential elections in 2000 in Florida. we accepted unfairness in 2004 in Ohio.

We accepted the rise in in voter suppression from 2010 onward. We accepted the use of the rise in voting machines that increased the likelihood of tampering from 2000 onward.

We accepted the refusal of Republic Senate Majority Leader to follow the Constitution and carry out the Constitutional role of the Senate to "advise and consent" in the appointment of a Supreme Court Justice.

We are accepting the fact that the citizens were not informed of Russian attacks upon us while those attacks were taking place.

We are now accepting the fact that Russian hacking attacks are continuing-they have not stopped. The president is ignoring the attacks which brought him into office and the ongoing attacks

If the future of our Democracy rests upon a belief that 2018 will be a fair election, our democracy-already severely damaged-will not survive past 2018.

To use a narrow "letter of the law" reading of the Constitution on rules for succession as an excuse for not fighting for the spirit of our Constitution is equivalent to not defending the Constitution.

when the "representative" part of our democracy fails, it is the people who have to defend the Constitution.

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Response to delisen (Reply #91)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 06:47 AM

98. RIGHT ON.

At what point do we gather the pitchforks? Or, just let it go?

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Response to delisen (Reply #91)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 11:05 AM

117. So work on that...

Stop trying to fix a constitutional crisis through non-Constitutional means. The election happened, no matter how bogus it might have been.

I live in a blue state, with fairly balanced congressional districts and a fairly solid all mail-in voting system. I trust my state. Can you say the same? Fight to get things fixed for future elections, stop trying to fix 2016. Fight the real monsters, stop tilting at windmills.

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Response to Wounded Bear (Reply #117)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 11:59 AM

119. What Constitutional Crisis? I see a political crisis with

many people claiming that nothing can be done to seek justice.

Can you give a short explanation of what you see as a constitutional crisis?



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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 11:37 AM

2. Nothing, without trashing the Constitution ourselves.

Trump can be removed (at least theoretically) by impeachment or the 25th Amendment, but then the job goes to whoever is next in the succession as listed in the same amendment - unfortunately that's Pence, followed by Ryan and Hatch. There is no way to install a different person unless you want to stage a coup d'etat, and I'm not down with that. Once we go down that road we'll have pissed on our own principles and we won't have this country any more.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #2)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 06:28 AM

93. One way is to have them name the successor we want.

Nothing in the Constitution prevents this.







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Response to delisen (Reply #93)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 10:04 AM

115. Yes, it does. The succession is in the Constitution, 25th Amendment.

Vice President, Speaker of the House, President Pro Tem of the Senate, Secretary of State, Treasury, Defense, Attorney General, Interior, Agriculture, Commerce, etc., all the way down the Cabinet roster. The House and Senate appoint the first two, and the president appoints the rest. There is no way to force the firing of the the person occupying any of these positions and the appointment of a different person so that person could assume the presidency.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #115)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 11:52 AM

118. I did not suggest force of course. People can take office and resign for example


Section 2. Whenever there is a vacancy in the office of the Vice President, the President shall nominate a Vice President who shall take office upon confirmation by a majority vote of both Houses of Congress.

Should Pence resign the vice presidency, there is nothing in the Constitution to prevent Donald Trump from nominating Hillary Clinton or another Democrat. and there is nothing in the Constitution to prevent Congress, of its own free will from confirming such a nominee.

The Constitution does not say the president must nominate a person of the same political party as the president.

Constitutional power and political power are two different things.

Mitch McConnell understood the difference when he used political power to refuse to hold Senate hearings on President Obama's nominee for the Supreme Court, Garland.

While the Constitution states that the Senate has the role of advising and consenting to Supreme Court nominees, McConnell decided he could get away with declaring his own rule that the Senate did not have to hold hearings as a prelude to advise and vote on whether to consent-and devised his own rule that presidents could not nominate SC justices during the last year of a presidency.

Without even being a judge, McConnell gave a new interpretation of our Constitution and won.

My argument is that the Constitution is not stopping us, our political will stops us from standing and fighting for ourselves and our Constitution. We may be too quick to decide that we will fail, or that "they" will never do something.

At present we do not know how far into the Republican Party the rot and Russian collusion extend. In the meantime I think they need to be disabused of the notion that we will self-censor ourselves and be "reasonable" in our demands.




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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 11:38 AM

3. Unless the Constitution changes, nothing.

Not until 2020. That's the next time we elect a President. That's the next opportunity to elect Hillary Clinton, should she even decide to run. We missed our chance in 2016, and won't get another one until 2020.

Personally, I'd prefer a different candidate in 2020, but if Hillary runs and gets the nomination, she'll have my vote, as she did in 2016. Had she had about 100,000 more votes in 2016, divided among just three states, she would be President now. She didn't get them, and Donald Trump is President.

If you want a change in 2020, start getting out the vote for 2018 and continue to work hard through November of 2020.

That's what we can do. Nothing else will work, frankly.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #3)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 01:33 PM

33. Then it should be changed. These injustices must stop

And I'm sorry, but I don't see us winning the way things are. Even with the Democrats in power, the GOP got away with their shenanigans. How will things change for the better with the GOP in power

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Response to lunamagica (Reply #33)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 01:37 PM

35. Do you know how the Constitution gets changed?

Any idea? If not, go have a look at the document itself. The process of amending it is described within it.

It's easy to say it needs to be change, but very difficult to actually do it, especially when Republicans control both houses of Congress. We need to win elections, not lose them, if we want to change things.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #35)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 01:49 PM

39. I will admit I have no idea. But then again, I'm just a regular, average person with an average mind

And I trust people who are way brighter and educated than I am to be in charge and have the ability to change what is wrong, even in the constitution. I'm sorry, but I think that if such injustices shouldn't be allowed to stand. We can't keep shrugging our shoulders and just say "it's the constitution, lets move on" and just accept what I think should be unacceptable.

Let's win elections. Right. I think we won the last one, and it was stolen. They know how to play the system and they will keep doing it. It works great for them.

I don't think anything will change for the better in the upcoming elections. Paper ballots? No voter suppression? no hacking? no gerrymandering?

How?

Jusr MHO

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Response to lunamagica (Reply #39)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 02:00 PM

41. Well, see, there you go.

You don't have to not know what's in the Constitution. You can read it for yourself. In fact, you probably did read it, way back when you were in high school. Frankly, it's impossible to understand politics unless you are familiar with that document and understand how our system of government works.

If you trust others to understand the system and take care of running things, you will always be on the losing side. So, go read it. Learn it. If you don't understand something in it, just ask, and people will explain that thing to you.

Here's a link, where you can read the entire thing, including all amendments. It's not really very long:

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CDOC-110hdoc50/pdf/CDOC-110hdoc50.pdf

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #41)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 09:19 AM

109. Thank you

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #3)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 06:30 AM

94. Can you guarantee us fair elections in 2018 if we work hard to get out the vote?


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Response to delisen (Reply #94)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 08:36 AM

106. No, I can't, but I can sure guarantee you a loss if you don't.

Work for fair elections in your state. That's what I recommend. We have them in Minnesota, because we insisted on having fair elections. I don't know where you are, but if you don't think your state's elections are fair, that's a good starting point.

Massive turnout is the best way to fight election shenanigans, in any case.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 11:39 AM

4. I say it should be a goal. Whether we get there or not is not the point.

The point is we will never get there if we don't try.

We should not just accept this act of war and illegitimate president.

In the face of a his illegal action Hillary still received more votes. She is the legitimate president.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #4)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 11:45 AM

6. Hillary runs for congress from New York

Dems win the House.

Hillary voted Speaker of the House.

Trump and Pence impeached and removed the same day.

Presto - Hillary is President.

It's that easy.

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Response to Yupster (Reply #6)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 11:46 AM

7. I like the cut of your jib.

Why do we have to accept a rigged election?

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Response to Botany (Reply #7)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 11:50 AM

11. There is no constitutional remedy. Once the electoral college votes and it is certified in

in congress, it is over.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #11)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 05:54 PM

45. but there is. If trump and pence have to go, if we push it and do it right, they could name Hillary

VP and then resign.

That is absolutely constitutional.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #45)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 06:39 PM

47. It will never happen...who is going to name Hillary VP and why would they resign?

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #47)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 07:41 PM

48. why did nixon resign??

Come on now. If you e sit back and accept this without even asking for some recourse. Then we deserve what we end up with.

Democracy is suppose to be fair.

What happened was not. And any resulting rewarding this act of war and treason must be undone.

Hell, I am even open to seeing every single appointment and exec order he signed undone.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #48)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 08:27 PM

62. I think Trump will resign.

However, Pence will become president. There is nothing we can do about that...no constitutional recourse for stolen elections.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #48)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 08:39 PM

65. I'm open to everyone in the country being given a million dollars

But it ain't happening. And neither is Hillary becoming president.

Grasp on to reality.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #48)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 06:33 AM

95. We clearly have the right to petition and the petition can.

take any forms

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Response to Yupster (Reply #6)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 01:34 PM

34. YES!

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Response to Yupster (Reply #6)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 04:42 PM

43. "It's that easy"??

Last edited Sat Jul 1, 2017, 10:12 PM - Edit history (2)

That's not only not easy, it's damn near impossible. 1. Assume Hillary even wants to run for the House. She'd have to defeat another Dem in a primary, which isn't guaranteed, and then get elected, which isn't guaranteed either. 2. The Dems would have to retake the House, which is not by any means a sure thing. 3. If that happens she would then have to be elected Speaker of the House, which is more likely to go to Nancy Pelosi. That position normally goes to a member with a lot of seniority in the House, which she would not have. 4. Then, Trump and Pence would both have to be impeached, 5. *and removed from office* simultaneously. That will NOT happen. Remember, 6. conviction following impeachment requires a 2/3 vote by the Senate, and 7. the Dems would also have to retake the Senate because the GOPers won't convict either of them at all, let alone at the same time.

Not gonna happen.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #43)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 08:43 PM

69. Right. If you want to guarantee pence is not removed from office

Put Hillary in the speakers seat. Anyone who thinks any republican (let alone the number needed to remove pence) would effectively vote to make Hillary Clinton president is as disconnected from reality as trump is.

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Response to Yupster (Reply #6)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 05:32 PM

44. The republiCONs woul explode!

Probably coat all the walls with icky, sticky stuff, but it's a price I'm willing to pay.

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Response to Yupster (Reply #6)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 07:52 PM

54. That'd work if we could survive two years of these clowns. I don't think we can.

Something will happen before then and this understaffed, incompetent, fucked up excuse for a government will screw up so catastrophically people will be in the streets calling for their heads. I don't know what happens after that. Uncharted territory.

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Response to Yupster (Reply #6)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 10:35 PM

82. That's fun to contemplate

I know that it's just a fantasy, but I like it.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 11:41 AM

5. They're never going to nullify the election

We have to realize it's a done deal, and move on.

Our only hope is to make sure this doesn't happen again, even if it means PAPER BALLOTS on the next election.

Personally I think the best move is to SHUT DOWN THE INTERNET for one day, while the voting is going on and tabulations are being made. It's probably the only way to keep the Russians out of our shit.

Their meddling has been going back for at least 4 or 5 elections, but 2016 was the first time they actually made a difference on a national scale. NEVER AGAIN!

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Response to FakeNoose (Reply #5)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 07:01 AM

101. You can't shut down the internet, that's insane.

 

Sorry, I don't mean that to sound rude, but its genuinely not something the US government has the realistic capability to do. You could theoretically cause a blackout of all the US based infrastructure but it would cause absolute chaos globally (probably including a lot of deaths) and would result in the rest of the world building up non-US based internet infrastructure and taking yet another world leading utility away from the US.

This isn't something people can mess around with.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #101)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 09:35 AM

114. If that's true then we're not smart enough

...to keep the Russian hackers out. I guess we shouldn't consider ourselves "world leaders" any more.

Just sayin'

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 11:47 AM

8. You know, from a different angle.

 

I was just thinking about Maddow and a couple other trusted people saying tick tick tick.

Then I see image of Trump Kissing Putin next week.

Tick, tick, tick

I started thinking it would have to be the next four days, fro anyone to take Trump down before Putin. We have to get him wounded, bad, before he goes out there.

It may be an eventful holiday weekend of fireworks.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 11:49 AM

9. It is not possible.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 11:49 AM

10. She could take a public tour

Then hide behind a hidden door that only the first family knows about.

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #10)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 07:00 AM

100. You just blew that plan by informing the world with your post.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 11:50 AM

12. Nothing...our Constitution doesn't support "do overs".

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 11:56 AM

13. We do not get end run by espionage. The Mechanism is "WE THE PEOPLE" nt

 

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Response to LaydeeBug (Reply #13)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 11:59 AM

14. I think it was you but do you still have the voting data from Winston County, N.C.?

n/t

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Response to Botany (Reply #14)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 12:04 PM

16. I am pretty sure it wasn't me, but Mike Farb has a clearing house

 

and I think maybe it was triron.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 12:02 PM

15. Get her to run in 2020 then vote for her.

There are no presidential do-overs in our constitution.

Absolutely none.

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Response to longship (Reply #15)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 12:23 PM

18. How come we have to follow the letter of the law as per the US Constitution now .....

.... but when Mitch McConnell used the Constitution as toilet paper in blocking President
Obama's pick for the Supreme Court that was fine and dandy?

We are in uncharted waters right now and we need to have our voices heard.

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Response to Botany (Reply #18)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 12:31 PM

20. Because it makes this country worth defending.

That's it.

I'm done here.
Drops mic.

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Response to Botany (Reply #18)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 01:14 PM

26. I had to read that twice. ⚠

There's no sarcasm thingy, so I can't understand the thinking that prompted such a statement. How can anyone who objects to Trump and the Republican Party, having witnessed how they have normalized trashing our laws and running roughshod over the Constitution, even suggest that any self respecting Democrat follow the same pattern?

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Response to Botany (Reply #18)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 08:10 PM

58. That wasn't unconstitutional

 

It was just plain dirty unprecedented political ratfucking.

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Response to Botany (Reply #18)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 06:21 AM

92. Yes. we have to follow the spirit of the Constitution.

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Response to Botany (Reply #18)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 06:59 AM

99. McConnell refused to perform the "advise" part of the Constitution in

Last edited Sun Jul 2, 2017, 12:16 PM - Edit history (1)

refusing a hearing to a presidential Supreme Court nominee.

In terms of the power of the people. have a Constitutional right to petition for redress.

We can petition that the rightful winner of the 2016 election be named president and that Trump/Pence and Congressional leaders arranged to do this. (They can use the current constitutional amendment on on succession to do this).

Granted they need the political will to do so-but that may come depending upon what is uncovered about the election and the extend of Republican involvement.

People who are depending upon fair elections in 2018 to save us are whistling in the dark.






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Response to delisen (Reply #99)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 09:28 AM

112. The right to petition doesn't require a response

As the Supreme Court held in 1984: "Nothing in the First Amendment or in this Court's case law interpreting it suggests that the rights to speak, associate, and petition require government policymakers to listen or respond to communications of members of the public on public issues."[10]

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 12:11 PM

17. I would not wish it on her

It would be horrible try to lead this country against the wishes of millions of voters who, according to the Constitution and state laws, are legitimately represented by this president.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 12:30 PM

19. There may be a Constutional remedy but it will require cooperation...

 

This is based on *proof* that the elections were illegitimate. This requires the 1st cooperation - agreeing that the elections were stolen. If there is proof that the elections were stolen AND the repubs (or all of Congress for that matter) refuse to proceed, then Americans and the world will know that America's democracy is dead.

Proceeding...

1. The Senate would have to vote to nullify the elections by repealing the vote of the Electors. If the Senate refuses to or votes not to nullify the election, then again, American's democracy is dead.

2. The Primaries: Given that if the elections were illegitimate, more than likely the primaries were also illegitimate and would require proof as well. In any case, the primaries would have to be re-done as well.

3. Basically, we would be redoing the entire 2016 election cycle. We would also have to correct all the voter suppression tactics used by the repubs.

Far fetched? Of course. That is probably why the framers did not put in language to correct this as they incorrectly assumed the elections would be legitimate. A Democracy requires accurate, reproducible voting that includes all legitimate voters voting (and squash the voter suppression).

But it might pass legal muster.

On Edit: We would also have to beg President Obama to fill in until the elections were concluded.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #19)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 12:35 PM

21. You forgot step 0. Rip up and throw away the US Constitution.

Once one starts making up ad hoc laws, that is the effect of such lunatic proposals.

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Response to longship (Reply #21)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 12:44 PM

23. To invalidate the Elector's vote would not be 'ad hoc laws'.

 

Especially if the elections were proving stolen. The Senate approves the
Electors choice - the Senate could reverse their consent.

How could America continue if we know the elections were stolen? Especially
by a foreign government? We can't.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #23)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 12:56 PM

24. Too late, the election was certified by the sole constitutional method.

I will stand by my post, and by the US Constitution.

What you suggest shreds the constitution.

There are no fucking do-overs in US presidential elections. Not after the electoral college votes.

Now we have impeachment in the House and Senate trial or the 25th amendment.

Either way Pence becomes president. And no, suggesting we do two (or more) impeachments at once is an ignorant non-starter.

Some here desperately need to become more familiar with our constitution.

Sorry.

My best to you.

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Response to longship (Reply #24)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 01:17 PM

27. Are you saying that Americans would just have to accept that our 'president' and...

 

...and Congress and America is run by Russia? Would you be good with that? Do we all just say 'oh well....'...

I am very well versed in our Constitution... And you might be reminded that it is no accident that we have
a Supreme Court that hears cases regarding what is and is not Constitutional...

I too stand by my post. I rather not have America taken over by a coup d'état...

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #27)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 01:24 PM

30. Yup. That's what the constitution says.

It contains no protocol for regrets and do-overs.

The next presidential election is in 2020. In the meantime we've got the 2018 midterms. Don't forget to vote in all your local elections, too.

And no, sadly I do not think some people here are well versed in their constitution. In fact, some apparently think that one can just make up any shit about it.

As always,

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Response to longship (Reply #30)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 01:43 PM

37. Well, luckily, this is just your opinion...

 

Maybe Americans would just say 'oh well, our government is run by Russia'. I don't.

Maybe the point you missed is that this would not be a situation of 'regrets or do-overs'.
To repeat, if our elections were proven to be stolen - this would be a major problem that
would mandate a resolution.

Again, we have a Supreme Court to decide what is Constitutional or not! It doesn't matter
what us 'armchair Constitution specialist' think...

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #37)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 02:10 PM

42. No, our government is run by laws, mainly the US Constitution.

And it does not matter what you or I say. It matters what the constitution says, a document of which I hope you would become more familiar.

THERE ARE NO FUCKING PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION DO-OVERS PROVIDED FOR THERE. NONE!

There are, however, two methods provided for the removal of a president. Therein lies our course, not some wishful made up shit. That is what many DUers are saying in this thread.

I am done here.

My regards.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #37)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 07:44 PM

50. Believe me if it proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, it will not stand that russian runs our govt.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #50)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 07:49 PM

52. That;s what I think too...

 

And as far fetched as my 'solution' seems, it might just pass legal muster...

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #52)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 08:12 PM

60. Of course it would pass legal muster but it has zero

Chance of ever happening.

Leaving aside the question of whether Hillary would want anything to do with this plan one thing is certain: if you want to guarantee that no Repub vote to impeach pence (a necessary part of the plan) make Hillary speaker.

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Response to onenote (Reply #60)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 08:40 PM

67. the only way it would "pass legal muster" is if the supreme court agreed

that's extraordinarily unlikely to happen.
first, it would require at least one of the partisan republicans to agree and
second, it would require the majority to completely fabricate a rationale that has zero basis in the constitution or law.
sure, it seems like a good idea to invalidate and re-do a fraudulent election, but it's also a bad idea to make up laws out of nothing.

other than that, there are only two legal ways i see to get hillary in the white house (other than her winning in 2020, which is unlikely as she's said she won't run).

1) amend the constitution to declare the election invalid and create a legal remedy that permits hillary to become president
or
2) impeach and remove presidents and vice-presidents as necessary until one of the presidents agrees to appoint hillary as the vice-president, have that president resign or be impeached and removed.


any of these methods requires remarkably improbable help from highly partisan republicans.

ain't gonna happen.


the best remedy is for america to take out its anger and frustration against republicans in 2018 and 2020.

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Response to onenote (Reply #60)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 08:42 PM

68. What is impossible is making clinton Speaker...

 

If the elections were proven to be stolen, what else would we do?

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 12:43 PM

22. There is still zero evidence any votes were changed or that some wide swath was prevented

 

from voting.

Whining and stomping our feet doesn't change the rules of the game. There is a far better case that Comey's second announcement was what changed the election (Clinton's poll numbers dropped significantly) and that could have been prevented by Clinton not having that stupid server in the first place.

There is supposition that the Russian hacking of Podesta's email had an impact, but you can't actually point to any quantifiable impact. Clinton was on track to win right up to the October Comey announcement, regardless of any Russian fake news.

You talk about the "will of the people", but the rules of the election were and are clear. Win 270 electoral college votes. Trump did that.

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Response to mythology (Reply #22)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 01:20 PM

28. Not to mention, Comey might not have spoken in June

Which drove the later letters if Bill Clinton would have realized it was not good to meet privately with Lynch.

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Response to mythology (Reply #22)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 10:25 PM

80. There is evidence and then you see how elections officials prevent any correction

Machine Count Not Matching Hand Count - Racine Co WI



Published on Dec 16, 2016

In the 2016 Wisconsin presidential recount, Liz Whitlock and her team find an error rate of almost 5% in the optical scanner vote in the Village of Elmwood Park. A similar error rate applied across all of Wisconsin’s 2,976,150 votes – could produce an error of 140,000 votes. Trump won Wisconsin by 22,000 votes.

Liz and other volunteers count votes with a hand clicker as the ballots are fed into an optical scan machine. They count 15 votes that are not counted by the machine in ward 1 of The Village of Elmwood Park. That ward has 310 votes total, creating the potential error rate of almost 5%. Donald Trump's margin of victory in Wisconsin was less than 1%. The team found errors in other wards that they click-counted as well, but the clerk in Racine County Wisconsin would not allow the votes to be counted by hand.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 01:13 PM

25. There is no constitutional way to do that.

Remember that in Gore's case, there ended up being proof that more legitimate ballots were cast for him in Florida. Here, you did not need to argue election shenanigans.

In that election and in 2004, there was voter surpression that was at least as provable as 2016. As to lies, 2004 led to a word being added to the language.

Did anyone seriously argue scheduling Gore's swearing in?

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Response to karynnj (Reply #25)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 11:05 PM

87. The irony of the whole Bush v Gore legal situation

was that Gore only won if they went with the standard the GOP was arguing for at the time. All the Democratic methods of moving forward with the recounts led to a Bush victory.
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/04/us/analysis-of-florida-ballots-proves-favorable-to-bush.html

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 01:20 PM

29. Get her in Congress (yes, a Congressional seat).

Take back the House after the 2018 elections.

Make her Speaker.

Impeach Pence and Trump (in that order).

Speaker Clinton becomes President Clinton.

That's really the only Constitutional way I can see it happening.

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Response to Tatiana (Reply #29)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 01:43 PM

38. If we're going to ignore reality

Why bother with having Clinton get elected to the House. There is no requirement that the speaker be a member of the House.

Of course there are more serious reality based issues with your solution, such as the fact that getting the Senate to convict is a pretty high bar (and if you don't think it is then your solution doesn't require the Democrats to capture the House)

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Response to onenote (Reply #38)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 01:56 PM

40. I think it's over and we need to move on.

Notwithstanding, that is the only legitimate pathway to the Presidency I see in response to the OP. And yes, it's an extremely high bar. Of course, Trump becoming President was nearly impossible and look where we are now.

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Response to Tatiana (Reply #29)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 08:04 PM

55. That is truly ingenious! Serious hat tip! - nt

 

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Response to KingCharlemagne (Reply #55)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 08:07 PM

57. It's also delusional.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 01:30 PM

31. I must admit I keep thinking about it...but in reality, I don't think anything will be

done. They got away with it and this injustice will be allowed to stand; and so they will be doing it again, and again, and again...why not?

Even if trump is removed, pence is removed...whatever happens the GOP will keep the power. I've been hearing how the messes (disasters) the GOP creates will spark a revolution since 2000. But what I've seen is that whenever the GOP is in power what happens is that the country moves to the right...But I digress.


It looks justice will not be done, and the rightful winner of the election will never take her place as POTUS. And so it will continue, they know how to play the system and will keep doing it, just like they have done for the past 17 years. Again, why not? It works for them.

Thank you for this Thread, Botany. I'm glad to see that I'm the only one who still thinking about Hillary in the WH.



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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 01:32 PM

32. Short answer: nothing

While there is a huge cloud over Asshole's legitimacy as president, we have no mechanism for replacing him with the person who lost a crooked election, nor do we have a way to declare a Mulligan.

The best we can do is keep the pressure on Congress not to pass the worst of his clueless "agenda" and hope they wake up to the fact that he's such a liability for this country that he'll put their own jobs in jeopardy if they don't impeach him or manage to pressure him to resign.

However, Clinton will never again see the inside of the White House except as a visitor or perhaps a staffer to the next Democratic administration.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 01:41 PM

36. DU needs to face reality: Sanders & Clinton both lost.

Between the never ending War of the Primaries (aka the 100 Years War), the wishful thinking, and the desire to time travel, we are never going to do what needs to be done.

Figure out what we did well in 2016, figure out where we can improve, and then fighting for every electable seat from town crier to president -- using all the sweat and money we can afford -- is our only realistic path forward. Remaking the party from the ground up based on the input of constituents into a party that wins elections is not only how we beat Trump, but how we move this nation forward.

That's not me bashing the party, that's me telling people that if they've got problems with the Democratic Party then they've got to get active and change it. You don't have to run for vice-historian for the local precinct, but you'd damn sure better show up and let them know who you are and how you feel. Want to join a bunch of former Berners at an Our Revolution meeting? Great! That's exactly the type of activism many of us are most able to participate in. In fact, I'll see you at the meetings (and the local DSA meeting, too, probably). But after strategizing and networking with my fellow Sandernistas, you can bet good money that you'll see me at my local Assemblyman's next coffeehouse meetup. That dude loves Hillary (actually, it's a little creepy), but that has absolutely no bearing on the fact that I'm a constituent with a voice and he's fairly reasonable and we both want to improve this state.

Sitting around and kvetching about Bernie Sanders' home ownership or the appropriate length of time the Clintons should hide like they were in a Hawthorne novel serves one purpose and one purpose only: to keep Democrats losing.

Trump is old and fat and loves KFC and believes exercise will drain his finite stores of energy. We won't have to worry about him much longer one way or another. The Republican menace, however, is very real. At best the damage will be monumental and take a generation to overcome, and at worst we're all living in a Steinbeck novel by 2020 and will be stuck there for a hundred years. His agenda obviously needs to be stopped, but we have to choose and articulate what our core values are, how they will help Americans, and how we get those messages out. Those messages will clearly be different for every activist and every politician, but the important point is that we're not going to get anywhere in the long run by playing defense to a psychopath. We can't out-crazy him and we can't out-evil him. We can give Americans a vision of their nation that's not based on hatred and fear.

Our laws do not provide for a presidential election do-over. It's not fair. The people in charge of investigating, prosecuting, and preventing collusion with hostile foreign powers and out right treason all work for Trump and the executive branch. That's not fair, either, but that's just how the constitution works.

Y'all really want to fix this shit? Get your state leaders to expand early voting, vote by mail, and voter registration. In places where ID is required to vote, help Democrats get their IDs (which is a beneficial social justice project in and of itself). Make your neighbors vote. Stop telling your coworkers why Trump sucks and start telling them how the Democrats all have better health care plans, better education plans, and actual "family values," even when they differ from one another.

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Response to Nevernose (Reply #36)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 07:43 PM

49. You need to make this an OP

Whether people agree or disagree with you, it's the conversation we should be having

Nicely done.

And LOL@ 'The Hundred Years War'

No shit!

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 06:27 PM

46. Waste of time...

do the wise thing, deal with things as they are.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 07:46 PM

51. We move forward

She is done.

We need to get him out.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 07:50 PM

53. Not going to happen. The election was lost.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 08:07 PM

56. Nothing beyond running again, and winning this time

 

I doubt that will happen though.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 08:11 PM

59. No.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 08:21 PM

61. She can run in 2020

2024 or beyond.

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Response to tazkcmo (Reply #61)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 08:47 PM

71. She can, but I doubt she will - and I hope she doesn't.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 08:31 PM

63. Nada, now.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 08:40 PM

66. Find one adult that did not vote and teach them how to vote early

 

If Trump is impeached and Hillary runs in 2020, it should be a sure thing.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 08:46 PM

70. For several reasons,

I doubt that Mrs. Clinton would participate in any machinations that would "install" her into the presidency.

No matter how consistently the press, the Republicans, and the purists push their story line (Hillary as an overly-ambitious, calculating, ruthless, shape-shifting, self-serving, dishonest, privileged harridan), there are those of us who know better.


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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 08:51 PM

72. Anyone still suggesting this

Has no understanding of the constitution. I would have been thrilled to see her as President, but There.Is.No.Mechanism for installing her as President at this point. None. You would be shredding the constitution. Once the Electoral College votes that person is President. That's it. The election is done. There is no mechanism for declaring an election illegitimate. No way to hold a vote of no confidence. There are ways a President can be removed- but we don't get a do-over and it doesn't go to the runner up. It follows the line of succession. These are the rules. I don't particularly agree with some of them, but it's where we are.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 09:45 PM

73. Priority #1 right now is getting Trump out.

Before he totally destroys our Democracy and Republic and/or starts a war (N. Korea, Iran, fill in the blank).

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 10:09 PM

75. depends if the military is willing to overthrow the government

and arrest/kill anyone who tries to stop them, and then they would need to install Hillary as Queen (not president since the Constitution as we know it would essentially be discarded). Even if they would do that I doubt Hillary would go along with it.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 10:09 PM

76. Nothing

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 10:13 PM

77. After Bush v. Gore and the Vote Count Was Stopped, We Were Told to "Get Over It"

Now, the 2016 presidential election was stolen. At what point does democracy die?

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Response to dlk (Reply #77)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 06:46 AM

97. You are on the right track. The opposition will say nothing can be done

and "get over it" because they want to kill democracy. If we want democracy we have to fight.

We are not jousting with windmills; we are fighting people who want to end democracy, want us to ignore the spirit of the Constitution, and want us to surrender without a fight.

Let's keep fighting.



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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 10:16 PM

78. Over, done

Do not go down this rabbit hole

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 10:21 PM

79. Crank up the way-back machine

and go back to last November's election with the realization on that day there was only 1 thing that any of us on the Left had within our power to do prevent Trump from becoming president and that would be voting for the one and only candidate who could have stopped him. That would mean choosing to show up and vote and voting for the Democratic candidate.
The Big Lie: There's no difference between Clinton and Trump so it doesn't matter which gets elected.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 10:30 PM

81. There is a way but it would be political suicide on a nuclear scale.

 

Step 1: Reclaim the House. So, it can not happen before 2019.

Step 2: Impeach Trump AND Pence together. Would require a strong case.

Now, having impeached both, Step 3: the Speaker of the House (Now a Dem from step 1) becomes President.

Step 4: New Dem President appoints Hillary Clinton VP

Step 5: New Dem President resigns, making HC President of the United States. By this point it might be mid-late 2019.


The country wouldn't tolerate this. Marginal Clinton supporters would abandon her instantly and the party as a whole would become toxic for such a stunt.

So, while such a series of events is theoretically possible, it would be unwise, unlikely and HC herself knows history well enough to refuse to take that path.

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Response to TXCritter (Reply #81)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 12:28 AM

89. You skipped a step:2/3 vote in Senate to convict

Where are those votes going to come from?

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Response to onenote (Reply #89)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 08:38 AM

107. Whoops! Good point.

 

So yeah, reclaim the Senate, too

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 10:39 PM

83. Nothing. Bro, do you even Constitution?

There is no recourse or option that "puts her in the Whitehouse" save running again and getting the EC votes.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 10:51 PM

84. A democratic controlled House can nominate her Speaker

Because there's no requirement that you have to actually be a Member. The constitutional problem is getting rid of trump AND pence at the same time...essentially, the ticket would have to be impeached and that won't happen. Either trump would quit like Nixon and pence would get sworn in, or pence would quit and Trump could nominate someone completely clean of this, just in case.

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Response to Volaris (Reply #84)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 12:24 AM

88. The republicans in the senate would never ever vote

to remove trump and pence if it would make Hillary president. Never. Ever.

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Response to onenote (Reply #88)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 01:46 AM

90. To me anyway, it's a forgone conclusion that if there's Democratic control of the House

The Senate will have a 60 vote Blue majority again.

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Response to Volaris (Reply #90)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 07:25 AM

104. It's 2/3 of Senators to remove from the President

Not just the 60 votes needed to overcome a filibuster.

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Response to Volaris (Reply #90)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 10:21 AM

116. The soonest that can happen is after 2020.

There aren't enough Republican seats up in 2018 to get close to 60 in the Senate. If we get 60 in the Senate in 2020 then the Dems likely won the Presidency as well.

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Response to onenote (Reply #88)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 06:39 AM

96. I can't say "Never." Politics is deal making.

Agnew would never have resigned as Vice President had he not decided it was in his interest to accept resignation as a part of his plea deal with the Department of Justice.




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Response to delisen (Reply #96)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 09:30 AM

113. True. But in what universe would any republican accept a deal

that made Hillary Clinton president?

Certainly not the universe in which we live.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 10:52 PM

85. Nothing can be done about this now.

The only way to get rid of Trump is by impeachment, and for that to happen, Mueller's investigation will have to come up with evidence so damning that even the Republicans will be forced to start impeachment hearings.

My greater worry is the future: if we continue to have voter suppression, voting machines and voter lists that can be hacked, and gerrymandered congressional districts, we will lose again. We need to agitate for paper ballots, and secure lists of registered voters. There is also a case before the Supreme Court on gerrymandered districts that will be very important. Lastly, we need to get the National Vote Act passed by enough states to force the Electoral College to vote for the candidate who wins the popular vote.

It is a very steep hill to climb from where we are now.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 10:59 PM

86. Enlist the aid of a TimeLord



"I'm the Doctor. I'm a Time Lord. I'm from the planet Gallifrey in the Constellation of Kasterborous. I'm 903 years old, and I'm the man who's gonna save your lives and all six billion people on the planet below...."

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 07:08 AM

102. Nothing in the Constitution makes provision for this prospect.

Wish I could give you hope but there it is.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 07:25 AM

103. Only way to do it:

 

Take over the House/Senate in 2018, and name Clinton as Speaker of the House (doesn't have to be a member of Congress), and then impeach the President/VP, making Clinton 3rd in line.


Not going to happen obviously, but that's the only Constitutional way.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 07:46 AM

105. It could happen...

...if Trump and Pence left and the House was in Democratic control (say, after 2018). The Speaker of the House could substitute Hillary Clinton's name for President, even if she wasn't in any office... the rationale being that she won the 2016 vote. However, it won't happen because Republicans would have the biggest meltdown in world history - they might even resort to their "second amendment rights."

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Response to Mike Nelson (Reply #105)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 09:20 AM

110. Where would sixty seven votes to convict come from?

In we won every one of the senate elections in 2018 we'd have 56 senators.

This entire thread is an affront to reality.

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Response to onenote (Reply #110)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 09:23 AM

111. Agree...

...it is more likely that the Republicans bring machine guns to Congress and open fire during the voting.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Sun Jul 2, 2017, 08:41 AM

108. Elect her in 2020.


Other than that 2016 is over.

Trump is the duly elected President and the rules of succession is in place.

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