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Sat Jul 8, 2017, 12:58 AM

 

The very personal, destructive effect,

that this asshole's election win has had on many is undeniable.

We need to fight his disgustingness, and call out those who contribute to it.

Any soul searching or investigation into the 2016 election results, must begin with how the hell this asshole won.

I don't want to hear about lack of messaging.

Trump's message was loud and clear, and as disgusting as it was, it won.

I don't want to hear about lack of passion or enthusiasm. If this election didn't get you to get off of your ass and vote, shit, nothing will.

What I do want to hear, is how the hell we are going to stop this asshole.

What I do want to hear is how we are going to work our asses off to regain Congressional seats.

This is not the time to trash the Democratic Party. We didn't elect this asshole.

If you are a liberal leaning Green member, or a libertarian, or independent, or whatever, you need to help us get rid of this monster.

That is the one, and only goal.






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Reply The very personal, destructive effect, (Original post)
NYResister Jul 2017 OP
CaliforniaPeggy Jul 2017 #1
iluvtennis Jul 2017 #3
duhneece Jul 2017 #45
leftstreet Jul 2017 #2
kerry-is-my-prez Jul 2017 #43
NYResister Jul 2017 #53
iluvtennis Jul 2017 #4
BigmanPigman Jul 2017 #5
pablo_marmol Jul 2017 #6
murielm99 Jul 2017 #7
Post removed Jul 2017 #14
Me. Jul 2017 #15
murielm99 Jul 2017 #41
kerry-is-my-prez Jul 2017 #44
we can do it Jul 2017 #50
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #16
pablo_marmol Jul 2017 #19
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #23
we can do it Jul 2017 #49
brush Jul 2017 #51
betsuni Jul 2017 #56
NYResister Jul 2017 #52
smirkymonkey Jul 2017 #8
annabanana Jul 2017 #9
sheshe2 Jul 2017 #10
NastyRiffraff Jul 2017 #11
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #17
Me. Jul 2017 #20
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #22
Me. Jul 2017 #26
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #27
Me. Jul 2017 #30
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #36
hamsterjill Jul 2017 #38
brer cat Jul 2017 #46
hamsterjill Jul 2017 #31
Me. Jul 2017 #34
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #35
hamsterjill Jul 2017 #37
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #39
hamsterjill Jul 2017 #42
Me. Jul 2017 #40
DesertRat Jul 2017 #12
KingCharlemagne Jul 2017 #13
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #18
KingCharlemagne Jul 2017 #24
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #25
hamsterjill Jul 2017 #32
pablo_marmol Jul 2017 #21
Hoyt Jul 2017 #33
pablo_marmol Jul 2017 #83
Hoyt Jul 2017 #85
NYResister Jul 2017 #54
pablo_marmol Jul 2017 #65
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #71
JHan Jul 2017 #66
pablo_marmol Jul 2017 #84
JHan Jul 2017 #86
pablo_marmol Jul 2017 #87
JHan Jul 2017 #88
pablo_marmol Jul 2017 #89
JHan Jul 2017 #90
pablo_marmol Jul 2017 #91
JHan Jul 2017 #92
pablo_marmol Jul 2017 #94
aikoaiko Jul 2017 #28
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #29
aikoaiko Jul 2017 #59
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #60
aikoaiko Jul 2017 #61
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #62
aikoaiko Jul 2017 #63
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #69
aikoaiko Jul 2017 #72
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #74
aikoaiko Jul 2017 #76
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #80
aikoaiko Jul 2017 #81
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #82
melman Jul 2017 #77
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #79
NYResister Jul 2017 #64
aikoaiko Jul 2017 #67
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #70
aikoaiko Jul 2017 #73
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #75
brer cat Jul 2017 #47
Gothmog Jul 2017 #48
njhoneybadger Jul 2017 #55
betsuni Jul 2017 #57
JHan Jul 2017 #58
H2O Man Jul 2017 #68
msdogi Jul 2017 #78
melman Jul 2017 #93

Response to NYResister (Original post)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 01:21 AM

1. Preach it! Absolutely right on target. K&R...n/t

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #1)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 02:59 AM

3. +1000 agree

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #1)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 04:29 PM

45. "...What I do want to hear, is how the hell we are going to stop this asshole..."

However hard that is, THAT'S what I want to hear, what I want to know and it takes brains and nuance above my...

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Response to NYResister (Original post)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 02:08 AM

2. One of these things is not like the others

"Green member, or a libertarian, or independent"

Libertarians would rarely vote for Democrats

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #2)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 03:40 PM

43. I know a who was trying to find an alternative party- went to a Libertarian conf. And was horrified.

She leans Dem. I think a lot of people who go the Libertarian route don't really know what it is. There are some true believers, but I think there's people who have no idea how fucked up their ideas are.

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #2)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 11:40 PM

53. In this election,

 

They should have.

Anyone who voted for trump, didn't vote, or threw their vote away, gave us this shit.

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Response to NYResister (Original post)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 03:08 AM

4. Trump supporters own up to the mockery you've made of America...

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Response to iluvtennis (Reply #4)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 03:24 AM

5. They are proud of him and think he's doing a great job, the job he promised he would do for THEM!

His base applaudes everything he has done, no matter how embarrassing or discusting it is to normal people. They want him to continue doing what he has been doing. They have no regrets and never will. That's why he tweeted that ridiculous Podesta tweet at the G20. It was meant for his deplorables and they eat it up.

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Response to NYResister (Original post)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 03:39 AM

6. Mixed message here AFAIC.....but I get your drift. Dissent will be shouted down.

"Any soul searching or investigation into the 2016 election results, must begin with how the hell this asshole won."

This sentence could be easily and honestly reworded thusly:

"Any soul searching or investigation into the 2016 election results must begin with HOW WE LOST."

"What I do want to hear, is how the hell we are going to stop this asshole."

I suspect that what you are saying is that we are blameless, and that you want NO criticism or self-evalution of our actions.

"What I do want to hear is how we are going to work our asses off to regain Congressional seats."

We'll never pull ourselves up and regain Congressional seats until we look honestly at what is going wrong. The first step in solving a problem is admitting that there is one.........and I have seen little evidence that inconvenient truth would be received with anything but flaming. Which is why I've stayed out of conversations such as these. I have more sense than to piss into the wind.

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Response to pablo_marmol (Reply #6)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 06:09 AM

7. I believe that we are blameless.

Hillary won the popular vote.

Putin and Co. hacked and interfered with the election. Seventeen agencies say so.

Gerrymandering is robbing Democrats of their rightful representation.

Voter suppression is keeping Democrats from voting.

Thirty years of Clinton hate is taking a toll.

The media is owned by conservative assholes and does not present a fair and accurate picture. They care only about ratings.

Comey interfered with the election.

Third party idiots got votes that took away from our side.

Unverifiable voting machines and other factors took votes away from us in important swing states.

Bernie Sanders endorsement of Hillary was lukewarm, and he did not encourage his followers to vote for the nominee in strong enough terms.

Misogyny is still rampant in this country. People accused women of voting for her simply because she is a woman. Ignorant men would not vote for her because she is a woman.

They cheated. They flat out cheated. We ran a candidate who was probably the best qualified person ever to run for the Presidency. She did nothing wrong.

I am tired of the same old overanalysis of our party. We need to stop that and get behind our candidates now and in the future. Instead of navel gazing, GOTV.

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Response to murielm99 (Reply #7)


Response to Post removed (Reply #14)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 11:10 AM

15. So That Is The Only Thing You Took From The OP

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Response to Post removed (Reply #14)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 02:09 PM

41. That's all you are seeing in my post?

Go away.

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Response to Post removed (Reply #14)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 03:54 PM

44. Because she still had to win over Sanders supporters, some of whom went onto not vote Dem.

Apparently, there was a pretty good number who voted for Trump.

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Response to Post removed (Reply #14)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 10:15 PM

50. Please

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Response to murielm99 (Reply #7)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 11:17 AM

16. We hear the claims to be honest about what went wrong then ignore all the many events that gave us

 

this result. Where is the sense in that? Your post is right on. Lets hear from those that insist we really look at what happened.

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Response to murielm99 (Reply #7)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 11:31 AM

19. "I believe that we are blameless."

This. This right here.

Kindly take note of the prescription for failure everyone.

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Response to pablo_marmol (Reply #19)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 12:01 PM

23. "This. This right here. "

 

And you ignore. So, as you point the finger out, you might want to reflect on doing the exact same you accuse others of.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029300354#post7

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Response to murielm99 (Reply #7)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 10:10 PM

49. Same here.

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Response to murielm99 (Reply #7)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 10:58 PM

51. Good stuff. I'd add a concerted, well-funded effort to expose and stop repug cheating

They try just as hard to stop our votes as we try to get out of votes with GOTV campaigns

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Response to murielm99 (Reply #7)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 12:22 AM

56. +1

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Response to pablo_marmol (Reply #6)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 11:38 PM

52. Your suspicions are wrong.

 

You are grossly underestimating how backwards and bigoted many American voters are.

You can't deny that trump ran a campaign based on bigotry. It happened. We all saw it.

And sadly, voters in our country bought it.

How the fuck to you campaign against such bigotry and hatred?

You can't.

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Response to NYResister (Original post)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 07:03 AM

8. Bravo!

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Response to NYResister (Original post)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 07:07 AM

9. "How the Hell this asshole won"??

I'm sure that Russian hacking, trolling and botting had nothing to do with it.

DHS isn't looking into it.

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Response to NYResister (Original post)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 09:41 AM

10. All eyes should be on the prize for 2018.

A democratic sweep.

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Response to NYResister (Original post)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 10:28 AM

11. Exactly right

I for one am sick of all the whining about how bad the Democratic Party is. The fact is, by any measure (except of course Dump's) Hillary won. She's not in the White House now because of various factors, none of which has anything to do with the Democratic Party's failure. I'm not going to list them here; by now everyone paying attention OUGHT to know about them.

I certainly don't have all the answers, but that our priorities should be 1) Education. 2) GOTV. Those two of course involve various actions like phone banking, rallies, marches, etc. And working with the Democratic Party. We need to focus on 2018 and take back Congress.

Thanks for the OP, NYResister. It is needed.

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Response to NastyRiffraff (Reply #11)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 11:21 AM

17. Another poster was kind enough to take the time to list all the events out, though I am sure they

 

will be ignored.

I agree. Attacking the Democratic Party, actively working to make then weak is not the answer.

I really hope that our party starts playing hard ball with those that say they are allies or even a part of our party while actively working to weaken it. There are a lot of voters out there aligned with our policies and beliefs. They need to be motivated to vote. I do not know what it is going to take, if not Trump and the Republicans destruction, but being more open, coddling and appeasing is not the answer.

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #17)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 11:35 AM

20. What It Will Take IMHO

Is a return to the 50 state strategy and yelling our message loud and clear. I don't know if it's just me but the party seems invisible. What are they waiting for and I mean more than a tour with just 3 men, one of whom doesn't even like the Dems in reality. Television appearance where you don't let the host bully you, articles by real Dems and not those who want to change the party to suit their personal vision like the recent article by that terrible campaign manager Penn and the push for 3rd way centrism, radio which people listen to as they drive to and fro work, meet-ups and so forth, and much more party musculature.

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Response to Me. (Reply #20)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 11:59 AM

22. Here is the thing. We do not have the media. They actively redefine what Democrats say,

 

fabricate what others and supporters feel about our candidate, has 3 Republicans to every Democrat and allowing Sanders to be our one Democrat.

That is why no one hears what we are saying. Being the political junkie I am, I have a lot of sources that direct me to the Democrats putting out their message, clearly, concise and so simple for people to understand. I also see that media refuses to present this.

We need to organize in social media. Paid, employees, across the nation, well organized.

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #22)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 12:11 PM

26. We Also Need Muscle

That's what the Cons apply/applied even when they were out of power. Loud voices making demands. Organize in social media is good. Definitely " Paid, employees, across the nation, well organized" But they need to get to it. I keep hearing we need to give the DNC time to get up to speed. Months? Years? 2021?

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Response to Me. (Reply #26)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 12:14 PM

27. Another issue Democrats have that is just a reality. Unlevel playing field.

 

It is so obvious and in our face. Democrats and the party get away with nothing. The Republicans and Trump get away with everything. Illegal, immoral, lacking integrity.

That is a huge hurtle, obstacle put in front of our party creating that unlevel playing field.

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #27)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 12:23 PM

30. They Get Away With It Because

their strategy is that a good offense is the best defense and it works. I like that DEms are nice, truth telling people but the time has come for good people to stand up to the bully. I think we'll be helped by circumstances 'cause I think there are problems with both the economy and military issues ahead, but Dems need to take advantage of it. Loudly, forcefully no backing down, no apology. My God, we're smart people....we need to get it together. For instance, used to be you couldn't get between my senator and a camera for fear of your life. Where is he (Schumer) lately and I'm not just talking about a few speeches on the floor of the SEnate.

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Response to Me. (Reply #30)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 01:07 PM

36. A point. I am on a Democratic board, supporting our Democratic party.

 

When I stand up for, support, or do not allow others to define the Democratic message, I can literally be silenced.

DWS did her job addressing the issue of a hack and see what happened to her.

Clinton in no way could address the accusations Sanders made about the Democratic party, DNC and her without offending those we are suppose to welcome into our party.

I just find the expectation, demand, requirement of the Democratic Party to be so unrealistically extreme. It is like a good game of twister, being demanded of the.

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Response to Me. (Reply #30)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 01:18 PM

38. +1

A little bravado never hurt anyone. You more eloquently state here what I'm trying to say down thread.

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #22)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 05:59 PM

46. Good observation, pirateshipdude.

We junkies research, read with comprehension, and are capable of understanding the ramifications of policies on different groups. However, we are in the minority. Those who depend on MSM to spoon feed them sound bites don't realize that they are getting lies, half-truths, or simply nothing at all about our candidates. I agree that we need to do more on social media and have a very well organized game plan. If we are loud enough, the media should hear us.

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Response to Me. (Reply #20)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 12:34 PM

31. You mean Dems actually growing a spine???!!!

Absolutely. Well said!

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Response to hamsterjill (Reply #31)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 12:41 PM

34. Good Way To Put It

Growing a spine!

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Response to hamsterjill (Reply #31)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 12:49 PM

35. I hear them speaking up all over the place. Can you be more specific about the spine you demand? Eom

 

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #35)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 01:16 PM

37. An example...

Chris Perri is running against Lamar Smith in my home state of Texas. Chris was literally attacked at a recent rally by an idiot from InfoWars who was yelling into Chris' face and interrupting Chris, putting words into his mouth, etc. Chris was trying to remain civil, and his campaign used the video to showcase Chris' response.

Make no mistake here - NONE - I want Chris to win. I'm fighting hard to get the word out about Chris.

But in my opinion, the fact that Chris didn't tell the Info Wars reporter to shut up and back off and THEN proceed to give him facts and information made Chris look weak. Again, my opinion. But I can guarantee you that there are a lot of Texans who would feel the same way. And of course, Info Wars used the video to make them look tough.

The ability to command a conversation - nasty as the other guy makes it - is very definitely seen as a leadership quality. When someone allows the other party to command the narrative, the one in command looks stronger.

I'm sure I'll take flack for this and so be it. But it is the way I see it. I'd love just once in my lifetime to see someone tell Donald Trump to shut up in those words. Because that is what he deserves.

Dems need to get in control of the narrative. When they are interrupted, they need to fight harder to be heard. Whether that be on a media circuit or on the floor of Congress. Until they can do that, they continue to look weak.

Again - my opinion, which I'm sure you will disagree with. That's your privilege.

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Response to hamsterjill (Reply #37)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 01:29 PM

39. I hear Waters speaking this way. Others too.

 

But, thank-you for the conversation and giving me an example what you are talking about. Yes. I would like to see this also. Absolutely and agree.

I saw a video with The Democrats finally kicking out a Sanders supporters. We should absolutely have a line of what is allowed and not. No more coddling. No more appeasing.


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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #39)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 03:27 PM

42. Yes, you're right as to Waters.

A few others, too. But I'd like to see more.

Thank you for your response. We all want to live in a civilized society. It's too bad the Republicans won't allow that.

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Response to hamsterjill (Reply #37)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 01:30 PM

40. How About 'You Lie" For A Response

Exactly so….

“The ability to command a conversation - nasty as the other guy makes it - is very definitely seen as a leadership quality. When someone allows the other party to command the narrative, the one in command looks stronger….. Dems need to get in control of the narrative. When they are interrupted, they need to fight harder to be heard. Whether that be on a media circuit or on the floor of Congress. Until they can do that, they continue to look weak.”

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Response to NYResister (Original post)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 10:32 AM

12. I couldn't agree more. k&r

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Response to NYResister (Original post)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 10:34 AM

13. First priority: stop fascism. We can squabble amongst ourselves AFTER

 

the fascist threat has been neutralized.

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Response to KingCharlemagne (Reply #13)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 11:22 AM

18. Ya? After, I still prefer not to squabble. What a waste of time and energy. Eom

 

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #18)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 12:04 PM

24. Dont get me wrong. I like a good collegial squabble as much as the next

 

Dem. But the current circumstance constitutes a national emergency for our Latino, Muslim, LGBTQ brothers and sisters. Doctrinal squabbles seem like a luxury to me now.

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Response to KingCharlemagne (Reply #24)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 12:05 PM

25. I totally agree. Eom.

 

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Response to KingCharlemagne (Reply #24)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 12:35 PM

32. Thank you.

The petty crap can wait. The goal must be paramount.

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Response to NYResister (Original post)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 11:41 AM

21. "We didn't elect this asshole."

Technically true, but ignores the fact that leaving the door open for him was for all intents and purposes to help get him elected. Sam Harris nails it......but I'm quite certain -- as always -- his words will be twisted.

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Response to pablo_marmol (Reply #21)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 12:36 PM

33. Sam Harris' words on race, Islam, guns, etc., are twisted. This is a joke, right?

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #33)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 08:03 PM

83. Why am I not surprised that you brazenly lie about Harris........


..........and misrepresent his positions? Bye bye.

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Response to pablo_marmol (Reply #83)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 08:26 PM

85. I am not surprised one gun fancier thinks like another gunner.

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Response to pablo_marmol (Reply #21)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 11:45 PM

54. So you've stopped in here twice to shit on my thread?

 

People like Sam Harris left that door open.

This election was a no brainer. If you actually had a hard time deciding, than you are responsible for this mess.

Again, it was a no brainer.

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Response to NYResister (Reply #54)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 11:49 AM

65. You obviously don't know sh*t about Sam Harris.


He was denouncing 45 with a vengeance, and made it plain that voting for Hillary was the only choice.

"So you've stopped in here twice to shit on my thread?"

Yeah, I know.......you're the only one here that gives a damn about our country. HOW DARE anyone present inconvenient facts.

This is exactly why I usually don't waste my time posting on threads like this. Only echo chamber participants need speak. Which speaks to one of Sam's points.

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Response to pablo_marmol (Reply #65)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 12:32 PM

71. That is a convenient way of wrapping the conversation up in isolation.

 

So aggressive, so angry. Anything anyone says gives the out that hey, he didn't like Trump.

Very define, confined. Interesting.

"HOW DARE"

Loud. I have a lot to consider in this post.

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Response to pablo_marmol (Reply #21)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 11:59 AM

66. I would never twist Harris' words

I agree with him on some things but not all - I especially disagree with him on some shit he's been saying recently.

He gave this opinion in the immediate aftermath of the election when blaming "identity politics" was in vogue. Here Harris is guilty of " Pundit's fallacy" . If Clinton had won the Electoral College, he would still be complaining about the "regressive left". The essence of his arguments take the form of a morality play ( thanks to Jacob T Levy for that smart observation) where the people who didn't do what he wanted them to come to a tragic end - Gosh, if only they listened to him their fate could have been avoided! ..................... As we get more data more about the election, we learn that deplorable attitudes did play a part, so did voter suppression, so did Comey's letter, so did an over reliance on the meme that the Obama coalition ( which started to get shakey in 2012) was strong.. but there are no easy or neat explanations.

And you can't ignore History either.

Trump's rise coincides with the rise of a special brand of conservatism in America, which borrows from European far right ideas. Republicans used to run on some very simple themes , all related to each other, which activated their hive mind: the preservation of family though conservative social norms, protection of family, town, city and nation by a strong military, responsible fiscal management and nationalism - allegiance to "soil" and country.

With Brown v Board of Education and the Civil Rights movement , Dixiecrats felt alienated in a Democratic party that was increasingly becoming concerned with social justice issues and conservatives couldn't resist making a play for them. During FDR's presidency, Conservatives would frame anti-establishment, anti-liberal elite arguments against FDR's liberal policies and now the Civil Rights movement brought those arguments into focus - "How dare the federal government tell southern states what to do?"

Then in the 70's, Lee Atwater imprinted his style of politics on the Republican Party, using dog whistles and code words , all cloaked in ambiguity. Reagan adopted the same style. These dog whistles weren't called out much, rather their ambiguity was accepted and incorporated into legitimate political discourse.

Then came the fall of the Soviet Union, and the religious right squeezed their way into republican politics. It was still a tough time for conservatism in some respects. The post civil rights,post- modern Conservative movement was still forming itself, and Liberalism won the arguments on women's rights, racial equality, etc. By the time Bush Jr became President, Conservatism was a mix of inchoate ideas with no singular theme running through them: There was christian fundamentalism, concern about the national debt, anti abortion crusades, compassionate conservatism - an idea designed to appeal to non-white voters ( especially hispanics), low taxes, family values, anti-gay rhetoric etc etc. but no theme connecting these ideas together.

Then came 9/11. Conservatives couldn't have hoped for more potent symbolism in that tragedy. Islam became the new Soviet Union, and the antagonists in this tragedy were brown and Muslim to boot. Right wing radio and Fox News seized the moment and ran with it, thus was birthed the toxicity of right wing radio and right wing media.

The election of Obama after Bush was the icing on the cake for them in terms of the narratives they were selling. And the narratives became clear - goodbye Compassionate Conservatism, hello race politics. Gerrymandering districts to favor whites while Fox News brought up the flank with 24/7 coverage of black "thugs" and mexican immigrants taking advantage of white americans - "stealing" jobs, raping, murdering and bringing in drugs. On top of that, Anti Muslim hysteria, painting feminists as "crazy" "Corrupting" "feminazis" who were supposedly killing the family unit and corrupting society, and associating homosexuality with pedophilia. Social justice issues, for which Democrats were associated with, was demonized and Democrats viewed as terrorism enablers while Republicans were painted as the preservers of White Christian America.

Obama's election didn't thwart their efforts - he was called "weak" a "kenyan" "Muslim" "outsider". Congress Republicans got the memo and did their bit through obstructing Obama's agenda.

And how could Obama's message of Hope and governance by consensus survive in the realities of politics where the emergence of the Tea Party showed there was an appetite on the right for strong ideologues and an uncompromising stance on issues? Where pragmatists and ideologues were at loggerheads in both parties? The result of this was years of stuckism and gridlock.

No surprises then that people wanted "change". A sizeable portion of the electorate was primed and ready for Trump, some were despondent about politics in general, and some were disenfranchised. Trump was prepared to tap into resentments in a way no Republican presidential candidate dared to in decades.

... but by all means, blame Liberals.

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Response to JHan (Reply #66)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 08:19 PM

84. Thanks for the lesson in political history. :-/

I do believe that there was more involved to 45's win than what Sam laid out......while believing that points he raised were not just valid but important reasons for Hillary's loss. You're free to disagree. And *of course* I place a lot of the blame on the RW.

"......but by all means, blame liberals."

I believe that if both sides were less tribal, and took lessons from defeat we'd be living in a *much* different nation. I absolutely reserve my right to call out our side when our team has it coming. Much of the talk on this board reminds me of a cartoon I saw recently. A Simpson's character is saying to himself "Is it possible we're out of touch? Nah --- the other side is a pack of idiots".

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Response to pablo_marmol (Reply #84)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 08:54 PM

86. Tribalism is the problem...

And liberalism rejects tribalism since commonalities are based on ideals, not "race" or religion or gender. Yes, there's some stuff on the so called "regressive left" that concerns me and similarities in the way far right and far left unite in their disdain for institutions and pragmatism but the problems on the left can be dealt with far easier than right wing billionaires controlling the levers of power. The latter is a far greater threat to humankind than the former.

My concern about Harris and others who go on absurd anti-SJW rants ( for example) is that their arguments come to resemble the same kind of dogmatic thinking they claim to oppose.

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Response to JHan (Reply #86)

Tue Jul 11, 2017, 02:48 AM

87. In the final analysis, I think most political debate is calisthenics to no avail.


Just a bunch of political theater that distracts from the real problem, which is the puppetmasters maneuvering the strings. Currently reading Mike Lofgren's book about the Deep State, trying not to get more depressed than I already am.

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Response to pablo_marmol (Reply #87)

Tue Jul 11, 2017, 04:14 PM

88. careful with deepstate narratives.

most of it is ridiculous.

political debate is necessary - I'm realising that losing faith in institutions and in the political process (including debate) enables the authoritarians. Nothing will kill a democracy quicker than apathy.

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Response to JHan (Reply #88)

Wed Jul 12, 2017, 01:26 AM

89. ".....most of it is ridiculous."


Have you read the book I referred to? Or watched the interview of Lofgren with Bill Moyers?

"Nothing will kill a democracy quicker than apathy."

Agreed. One could also say that nothing will kill a democracy quicker than citizens with their heads buried in the dirt.

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Response to pablo_marmol (Reply #89)

Wed Jul 12, 2017, 04:10 AM

90. Yes, I'm familiar with it..

I'm even more dismissive of these narratives with Trump in office.

The idea that it doesn't matter who is in office because the "Deep state" ensures things remain the same has been smashed with Trump's attack on the status quo ( cuts at the state department, attacks on security agencies, introducing climate change denialism at the EPA). The only way this assault stops is through the electoral process and a change in administration.

And what is the real impact of this view? How do citizens fight back if they're sold the idea that 'nothing changes' ? It's not as if outside agitation changes anything in and of itself because it doesn't....Occupy Wall Street, for example, soured democrats in the 2010 midterms which gave the GOP a hold on congress *in a census year* and allowed them free reign to gerrymander and obstruct Obama's reforms for 6 years. Change always occurs through the electoral system, through the constitution and Deep State narratives contribute to a lack of faith in those institutions . These narratives are most appealing to cynical anti-statists and the dualists - the red pill vs blue pill types who see things through a "good" vs "bad" frame of reference-, the anti-statists despise government and the dualists are ignorant about systems of power and how to leverage those systems. And coincidentally a lack of faith in Government has been central to GOP philosophy for decades because the aim of anti-government attitudes is to weaken government, through cuts in funding of agencies and lower tax revenues to fund those agencies and institutions ( as a result of tax cuts) It was no surprise to me then to see the Trump administration seize the Deep State meme and run with it - how's that working for the country so far? Not very well.

Anyway the Deep State really doesn't concern me as much as information wars. Conventional wisdom used to be that more data solves everything : more info and greater transparency was supposed to create a more informed citizenry. However what we're currently faced with is the manipulation and weaponization of data which turns "truth" on its head creating confusion and chaos - every authoritarian's wet dream.

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Response to JHan (Reply #90)

Wed Jul 12, 2017, 10:49 AM

91. Strong post......no arguments with any of this.


Particularly the fact that 45's ascendancy makes the subject moot. That said, I've never believed (for me personally) that knowledge of any kind represents a liability. And going back to Harris' point about the hypocrisy involved in giving Islam a pass, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

There seems to be a prevailing belief that the chickens will come home to roost in '18. I'm not convinced, given the fact that we seem to be doubling-down in areas that we should be giving greater scrutiny. Like to be wrong on this -- don't think I will be.

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Response to pablo_marmol (Reply #91)

Wed Jul 12, 2017, 10:58 AM

92. i agree with him kinda on that..

did you see this article by Ali Rizvi? https://www.vox.com/conversations/2017/7/7/15886862/islam-trump-isis-terrorism-ali-rizvi-religion-sam-harris

I think both the left and right approach Islam the wrong way. And my personal experience shapes my views on this- one of my close friends is an Iranian muslim who had to flee Iran as a kid with his parents, he thinks a lot of talk on the left about Islam is naive at best and condescending at worse. His views are similar to Ali's as well.

my disagreement with Harris are mostly over his SJW rants and other things - his talk with Charles Murray recently was embarrassing- I felt embarrassed FOR him but I really enjoyed his book Moral Landscape. I used to always give him room because he believes in Universal human rights - "culture" should not be used to rationalize oppression of human beings.

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Response to JHan (Reply #92)

Thu Jul 13, 2017, 12:56 PM

94. Thanks for the link.......


I'll check it out after I get back from errands.

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Response to NYResister (Original post)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 12:17 PM

28. You're right we do need the help, massive help, from non-D party lefties and left leaners.




We need to think about how to help them help us.

Not-Trump wasn't quite enough in 2016. So we need to do more.

I do t have answers but I know blaming them or belittling them or their interests will work against garnering they support. You didn't do that in your OP and I appreciate that.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #28)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 12:20 PM

29. What are we suppose to do aikoaiko? Accept their false narrative, quietly, appeasing for a vote?

 

Firstly, it is blatantly false, a non truth.

Secondly, as we see, it hurts us and makes us weak.

We have to be able to speak out our truths without being accused of offending those telling us lies.

Both parties are the same? That just does not factually fly.

I want to understand.

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #29)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 07:30 AM

59. You ask a good question, but follow it with unhelpful presumptions


False narrative? Non-truth?

I'm not sure who is "we" in this case that thinks it hurts us and makes us weak. "we" is not me and "we" is not Democratic Party leadership who installed Bernie in the team and support his outreach efforts.

Yes, you have to speak your truths and others will speak their truths.

Perhaps we'll find a leader who can speak for and represent more of us than recent candidates.

I agree that the parties aren't the same, but I understand the why that hyperbole is said.




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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #59)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 10:18 AM

60. False narrative, non-truth. "I agree that the parties aren't the same"

 

If they are not the same, they are not the same. That would be a non-truth I state. It is simple enough. And no, I do not get using a non-truth as a base to ones thinking. I just do not.

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #60)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 10:42 AM

61. Hyperbole and stereotypes make the base to many people's, perhaps even you


Most lefties or left leaners who didn't vote for HRC were not saying the parties were the same.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #61)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 11:06 AM

62. I really disagree. Too many were saying that. Too many.

 

I had a couple just a month ago, out of the blue, say it to me. Prior to voting on Tuesday, I had a number of people tell me this. It is something Sanders pounded in his campaign. I think it was hugely destructive, and false.

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #62)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 11:29 AM

63. I remember Bernie saying it was better to vote for D over any R



But yes he did criticize Democrats for being too similar to Republicans on cartain issues.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #63)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 12:25 PM

69. That was not good enough. That was insulting to all of us Democrats.

 

I do not know why Sanders has such a tough time understanding how insulting that is to us.

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #69)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 12:33 PM

72. Again, who is us because I'm a Democrat and I was happy with what he said.


Maybe use the phrase some of us because you don't speak for me.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #72)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 12:37 PM

74. Ok. Then you are insulting me also. That is why So many Democrats continually say they are

 

angry at Sanders and supporters. They keep insulting us and want us to be ok with it, too. It doesn't work that way. We have given our life, effort, thoughts, work and say, you know. There is nothing similar with Democratic Party and the Republican Party. Two different animals.

Clinton a life time of working for, putting in the time and effort with the oppressed, being scolded by people that have never done, at not doing enough.

That is insulting.

Why do you and Sanders and the supporters then not get the insult?

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #74)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 12:46 PM

76. Because I'm a Democrat and have just as much say as you.


Thank you very much.

And that is exactly how it works in politics.

I'm sorry your feelings are hurt, but there is more at stake than hurt feelings.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #76)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 01:08 PM

80. Democratic Party is just like the Republican Party.

 

You agree that is a lie. Why would anyone knowingly promote a lie?

Help me understand. At least we are at the core of the conversation.

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #80)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 01:56 PM

81. Here are some things where I think they are unhappy with the similarities

A majority of Ds voting for the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002
Democratic leaders voting for the Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act 2005
Not enough help for homeowners after the housing bust
Not enough rhetoric for public options and universal health care

eta: But my mainpoint is that we need to engage and respond to them -- not me.

Of course not voting for HRC helped Trump which makes all those things more likely. I'm with you on that.



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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #81)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 02:11 PM

82. We have responded. Everyone has responded. How many times has Clinton apologized for her vote.

 

Flung herself on the purist that ignore so much of that issue, and fall on her knife for them to feel better. We have responded endlessly, with Clinton. Not with Kerry, or Biden or any of the others that voted that bill also.

I can have such conversation with everything you listed.

To Clinton's detriment.

So, I do not really understand any more than I did before this conversation, but I certainly appreciate the effort, and respectful manner of the conversation.

Thank-you.

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #69)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 12:49 PM

77. You don't speak for all of 'us'

 

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Response to melman (Reply #77)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 01:07 PM

79. Is it true both parties are the same?

 

Are you telling Democrats, the Democratic Party, people that have putting their time, effort and money for decades standing with the oppressed, that they are the same as Republicans?

That is the conversation.

If no, then when we are told that we are just like Republicans, we are going to get angry when we are told a lie. Why would we allow anyone to define us in a lie?

This is what I do not understand. Why do not get get Sanders and his supporters expectation of us and the Democratic Party.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #61)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 11:49 AM

64. What were they saying?

 

Because I don't understand how anyone who considers their self to be left leaning would not vote in the 2016 election.

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Response to NYResister (Reply #64)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 12:04 PM

67. That's what disenfranchisement looks like.



It matters little what I think they want.

We need to ask them and respond.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #67)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 12:26 PM

70. Clinton did ask. Clinton did respond, repeatedly. At her detriment.

 

Clinton appeased, gave and coddle. That is what is truly tough for us. And the group still said not good enough.

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #70)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 12:36 PM

73. Then you keep talking, asking, listening, and responding.



We can't get everyone on the left side of the spectrum but we can do better.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #73)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 12:39 PM

75. AT Clinton's detriment. You do not "keep" when it is clearly hurting. Eom

 

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Response to NYResister (Original post)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 06:01 PM

47. ITA, NYResister.

Great OP.

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Response to NYResister (Original post)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 09:32 PM

48. K&R

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Response to NYResister (Original post)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 12:08 AM

55. Fucking eh right! Friend

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Response to NYResister (Original post)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 12:50 AM

57. K&R

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Response to NYResister (Original post)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 01:20 AM

58. K & fucking R

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Response to NYResister (Original post)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 12:05 PM

68. Well said.

Recommended.

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Response to NYResister (Original post)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 12:54 PM

78. Infuriating too

That the republicans seem to be ok with the endless evil, idiotic and embarassing antics of what is in our White House still shocks me.
I am constantly reminded that Hilary did win, but the election was hacked. That, and the fact there are a lot of people in this country who approve of what is going on, who like the hatred, the racism and the misogyny.
I have always been, and continue to be very proud to be a Democrat.

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Response to NYResister (Original post)

Wed Jul 12, 2017, 11:07 AM

93. Well what do you know

 

Banned again.

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