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Quixote1818

(28,918 posts)
Sat Jul 8, 2017, 04:47 PM Jul 2017

SHOULD DEMOCRATS MOVE TO THE CENTER? MARK PENN OP-ED INSPIRES FURIOUS DEBATE

Mark Penn knows about losing elections—and about winning them. Now, the longtime pollster for Bill and Hillary Clinton is offering his advice to Democrats despondent after the 2016 election of Donald J. Trump to the presidency and, more recently, defeat for their party’s candidates in several special elections that many hoped would serve as the advance guard of a Democratic takeover of Capitol Hill next year.

The pollster’s much-disputed wisdom, which has generated immense vitriol and some rational debate online, comes in the form of “Back to the Center, Democrats,” a New York Times op-ed (co-authored by a former Manhattan borough president, Andrew Stein). As the title suggests, the thesis is that the Democrats’ message has been hijacked by the so-called Elizabeth Warren wing of the party and must shift right if it is to recapture the House of Representatives, not to mention the White House.


Penn and Stein write:

Central to the Democrats’ diminishment has been their loss of support among working-class voters, who feel abandoned by the party’s shift away from moderate positions on trade and immigration, from backing police and tough anti-crime measures, from trying to restore manufacturing jobs. They saw the party being mired too often in political correctness, transgender bathroom issues and policies offering more help to undocumented immigrants than to the heartland.

Others have made similar arguments since Hillary Clinton’s loss, but Penn has a credibility that comes with having engineered Bill Clinton’s re-election campaign in 1996. He was also a close adviser on Hillary Clinton’s 2008 presidential campaign, if not exactly a well-liked one. As John Heilemann and Mark Halperin reported in Game Change, their popular book about that year’s presidential campaign, others in the Clinton camp found him “arrogant and amoral, a detrimental force whose perniciousness was amplified by his inexplicably tight bond with the Clintons.”




http://www.newsweek.com/move-center-democrats-mark-penn-op-ed-inspires-furios-debate-633046

42 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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SHOULD DEMOCRATS MOVE TO THE CENTER? MARK PENN OP-ED INSPIRES FURIOUS DEBATE (Original Post) Quixote1818 Jul 2017 OP
Hell NO! BigmanPigman Jul 2017 #1
FUCK Mark Penn Skittles Jul 2017 #2
Seriously... that goes double for me! InAbLuEsTaTe Jul 2017 #30
End of thread Egnever Jul 2017 #33
If Mark Penn wants a party that's where he thinks the "center" is Warpy Jul 2017 #3
Bullshit! brutus smith Jul 2017 #4
FFS!!! Now what, move more RW than Trump and Pence. FUCK THIS!!! Dems need to RETURN RKP5637 Jul 2017 #5
Because Penn Was So Good At POlitics Before? Me. Jul 2017 #6
The center doesn't exist anymore. Ken Burch Jul 2017 #7
Exactly!!!!!!! n/t RKP5637 Jul 2017 #9
Thank you, Mark Penn. For a moment, you've brought us all together- Ken Burch Jul 2017 #8
Gee, and "Mark Penn gets on Fox News" for this! WHO'DATHUNKIT?! WinkyDink Jul 2017 #10
Mark Penn, make yourself useful and take that message to the GOP instead. Barack_America Jul 2017 #11
Penn has been a useless fuck for over a decade Egnever Jul 2017 #34
I disagree with them wholeheartedly, but isn't that pretty much what frazzled Jul 2017 #12
No Tom Rinaldo Jul 2017 #23
Interesting use of elipses, there... regnaD kciN Jul 2017 #28
Many liberal Democrats on this board defend the TPP...I don't event though I am a liberal. Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #42
Yes that is exactly what he wanted to do. Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #41
Penn's been wrong since the 1970s mvd Jul 2017 #13
I'll say it since no one else has yet.... Xolodno Jul 2017 #14
Furious debate? mcar Jul 2017 #15
Remember when Reagan said "I didn't leave the party, Greybnk48 Jul 2017 #16
Further left? DefenseLawyer Jul 2017 #20
Yeah, that one... Hell Hath No Fury Jul 2017 #25
Penn seems to think that the main thing the American people want is more pot smokers in prison. Warren DeMontague Jul 2017 #17
Move to the Center? Why? Vogon_Glory Jul 2017 #18
He would also like Ross Perot to throw his hat in the ring in 2020 DefenseLawyer Jul 2017 #19
we need surrender, he says......fuck him Demonaut Jul 2017 #21
some people around here must really enjoy losing elections Softail1 Jul 2017 #22
If you think we're going to win elections on Penn's platform, think again... regnaD kciN Jul 2017 #31
The center of what? Where do you find the center between fascists Guy Whitey Corngood Jul 2017 #24
Oh hell no! Dyedinthewoolliberal Jul 2017 #26
Penn is to the Dems as Gringrich is to Ccarmona Jul 2017 #27
Bad comparison...Gingrich gave the GOP their first congressional majority since Reagan and Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #40
Oh sure....because as every "Good German" knows, when you want to fight Nazi's, its a really good Pachamama Jul 2017 #29
Hell NO! burrowowl Jul 2017 #32
They have been, and it doesn't fucking work. TDale313 Jul 2017 #35
The left proved it is unreliable, so there is no other choice but to move to the center. Foamfollower Jul 2017 #36
The art of winning is the art of crafting a center struggle4progress Jul 2017 #37
Let's hope there are fewer and fewer Democrats listening to Penn these days. democrank Jul 2017 #38
If you move left in a center right country, you will lose. Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #39

Warpy

(111,164 posts)
3. If Mark Penn wants a party that's where he thinks the "center" is
Sat Jul 8, 2017, 04:53 PM
Jul 2017

then he needs to change is voter registration to Republican or Libertarian or some other splinter party out there.

His way DOES NOT WORK. We're Democrats, not Eisenhower Republicans. He's not going to budge any of us on that one.

RKP5637

(67,088 posts)
5. FFS!!! Now what, move more RW than Trump and Pence. FUCK THIS!!! Dems need to RETURN
Sat Jul 8, 2017, 05:06 PM
Jul 2017

to the values that used to get Dems elected rather than some of this bullshit of following republicans and getting brown nose! Damn, I'm so fed up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Me.

(35,454 posts)
6. Because Penn Was So Good At POlitics Before?
Sat Jul 8, 2017, 05:07 PM
Jul 2017

Mr. DLC and his friend the founder of Third Way/or Dems should just appease obviously haven't learned anything from the past.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
7. The center doesn't exist anymore.
Sat Jul 8, 2017, 05:09 PM
Jul 2017

There are people who want a society with inclusive, humane, egalitarian and respect-based values, and there are people who are obsessed with obedience, conformity and "order".

The way to win is to unite the humane majority.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
8. Thank you, Mark Penn. For a moment, you've brought us all together-
Sat Jul 8, 2017, 05:12 PM
Jul 2017

-in absolute revulsion at your failed, defeatist vision of Democratic politics.

As Jim Hightower said "There's nothing in the middle of the road but yellow stripes and dead armadillos".

Barack_America

(28,876 posts)
11. Mark Penn, make yourself useful and take that message to the GOP instead.
Sat Jul 8, 2017, 06:00 PM
Jul 2017

Why is it always the Dems who have to surrender their principles? Does he not care what his proposed strategies mean for Americans?





frazzled

(18,402 posts)
12. I disagree with them wholeheartedly, but isn't that pretty much what
Sat Jul 8, 2017, 06:05 PM
Jul 2017

Bernie Sanders has been saying since the election: "Central to the Democrats’ diminishment has been their loss of support among working-class voters, who feel abandoned by the party’s shift away from . . . positions on trade and immigration, . . . from trying to restore manufacturing jobs. They saw the party being mired too often in political correctness" (i.e., "identity politics&quot .

I could swear I've heard that before. (except the immigration part, but that's a little bit implicit).

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
23. No
Sat Jul 8, 2017, 10:01 PM
Jul 2017

Sanders consistently has a great voting record on Women's issues, LGBT issues, minority rights issues, voter rights issues, and on criminal justice reform issues across the board. Yes he has stressed economic issues, but he is strong on identity and social justice issues also. You really have to bend over backwards to call Sanders "centrist" in any way. Trust me, Penn wants the Democrats to have nothing to do with the likes of Sanders.

regnaD kciN

(26,044 posts)
28. Interesting use of elipses, there...
Sun Jul 9, 2017, 12:43 AM
Jul 2017

You try to find common ground in his words about " the party's shift away from...positions on trade and immigration." Penn's word found where those dots are is "moderate" -- in other words, NAFTA, GATT. and the other moves toward globalized "free trade" that characterized Bill's administration. If Penn thinks that's what the "working class" supports, note that was the one area where Trump broke from Republican orthodoxy, and his seeming embrace of a protectionist agenda has a lot to do with why he made inroads in that group where Cruz, Jeb!, Rubio et. al. couldn't. If Penn thinks the way to win back the working class is by promising more "free trade," he's a bigger fool than even I thought.

Demsrule86

(68,469 posts)
42. Many liberal Democrats on this board defend the TPP...I don't event though I am a liberal.
Sun Jul 9, 2017, 09:37 AM
Jul 2017

I honestly think that Sen. Sanders has been saying sort of the same thing in the last few months...while I don't think we should move left at this moment with a center left country, we cannot sacrifice our principles either...including both social justice and economic justice.

mvd

(65,161 posts)
13. Penn's been wrong since the 1970s
Sat Jul 8, 2017, 06:29 PM
Jul 2017

and helped sink Hillary's 2008 campaign.

A progressive economic message and social message will fire up our base, which we need. It's not a good plan to try for those moderate Republicans so much.

Greybnk48

(10,162 posts)
16. Remember when Reagan said "I didn't leave the party,
Sat Jul 8, 2017, 06:39 PM
Jul 2017

the party left me?" Make no mistake, I hate Ronnie on a cellular level and always have.

But if the Democratic Party moves farther left than it was already pulled by the "fundy" nuts during the Bill Clinton administration, I believe it will have left many behind, myself included.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
17. Penn seems to think that the main thing the American people want is more pot smokers in prison.
Sat Jul 8, 2017, 06:44 PM
Jul 2017

To say he's out of touch is an understatement.

Vogon_Glory

(9,109 posts)
18. Move to the Center? Why?
Sat Jul 8, 2017, 08:58 PM
Jul 2017

Why should we Democrats move to the center? I remember campaigning for former president Obama in 2012 and some of my fellow phone-bankers were former Republicans who left the GOP after The Gingrich-era sharp right turn. Many of us jokingly made our best Nixon impersonations off the phones and said that we were perfectly clear--we were working to re-elect the President. President Obama's party (and Hillary's, too) maintained a lot of the social safety net that had been put in place by LBJ and mostly maintained by Democratic successors.

I see no reason why the Democratic Party should move farther right to attempt to appeal to an aged and bamboozled population of geriatric whites too credulous to think for themselves and vote to defend their own interests.

 

DefenseLawyer

(11,101 posts)
19. He would also like Ross Perot to throw his hat in the ring in 2020
Sat Jul 8, 2017, 09:05 PM
Jul 2017

Mark Penn is on the cutting edge of modern politics.

 

Softail1

(56 posts)
22. some people around here must really enjoy losing elections
Sat Jul 8, 2017, 09:26 PM
Jul 2017

...the thought that we shouldn't change ANYTHING is just plain nuts..umm..last I checked we haven't done very well in recent elections..can't believe how big the blinders are that some people have on.

regnaD kciN

(26,044 posts)
31. If you think we're going to win elections on Penn's platform, think again...
Sun Jul 9, 2017, 12:54 AM
Jul 2017

It's pretty much the same as that of the "mainstream" Republicans who got stomped by Trump during the primaries. That should tell you something.

 

Ccarmona

(1,180 posts)
27. Penn is to the Dems as Gringrich is to
Sun Jul 9, 2017, 12:34 AM
Jul 2017

The Repugs: washed up has-beens that need to disappear.
The Dems need to seek the most Progressive positions possible. That's where the majority of the population are.

Demsrule86

(68,469 posts)
40. Bad comparison...Gingrich gave the GOP their first congressional majority since Reagan and
Sun Jul 9, 2017, 09:32 AM
Jul 2017

authored the contract with America and led the successful impeachment of Bill Clinton. He was extremely successful at advancing GOP policy too. He is also an evil piece of shit...but that is another subject.

Pachamama

(16,884 posts)
29. Oh sure....because as every "Good German" knows, when you want to fight Nazi's, its a really good
Sun Jul 9, 2017, 12:45 AM
Jul 2017

.....plan to become a little more like them....



That didn't work out to well as history taught us....at least those of us who paid attention to the lessons of the past of human history.

So, hell no....If the Center means moving over to what the current Trump fanatics and GOP call themselves, then there is no way moving anywhere near that is up for debate.

burrowowl

(17,632 posts)
32. Hell NO!
Sun Jul 9, 2017, 01:41 AM
Jul 2017

Compared to Europe most DEMs are slightly less than Center Right. Hell Eisenhower was father Left!

TDale313

(7,820 posts)
35. They have been, and it doesn't fucking work.
Sun Jul 9, 2017, 02:29 AM
Jul 2017

So hell no. Republicans have dragged the political discourse rightward for decades, with Dems chasing them to the right thinking they can fill the void. Enough already.

 

Foamfollower

(1,097 posts)
36. The left proved it is unreliable, so there is no other choice but to move to the center.
Sun Jul 9, 2017, 02:31 AM
Jul 2017

The left killed itself with its own extremism and demands of purity, so they must be discarded in favor of the center.

struggle4progress

(118,236 posts)
37. The art of winning is the art of crafting a center
Sun Jul 9, 2017, 03:03 AM
Jul 2017

There never ever has been a well-defined "center" -- our task is to create it

Plenty of people understand this fact, and not all of them are our friends: but they're busily trying to craft a center before we do

democrank

(11,085 posts)
38. Let's hope there are fewer and fewer Democrats listening to Penn these days.
Sun Jul 9, 2017, 03:50 AM
Jul 2017

We're not going to take back all the state and federal seats we've lost by Penn-ing the Democratic Party platform. Penn and his DLC buddies are a big reason our party is where it's at. They're the folks who preach against people on welfare while they attend zillion-Dollar fundraisers with the beautiful people.

Penn is a snake. Why the Clintons favored him so is a mystery.

Demsrule86

(68,469 posts)
39. If you move left in a center right country, you will lose.
Sun Jul 9, 2017, 09:30 AM
Jul 2017

We need a fifty state solution and that means fielding moderate candidates for some states...whenever we have the left coming against us and the right in a perfect storm, we lose... since the 70's. Let's just unite and vote for any Dem left standing after the primaries...now that will stop Trump.

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