"We'll never know" "We'll never know" "We'll never know". How about we fucking try to know?

[ProfessorPlum]

After the 2004 debacle of seriously F*ed up voting irregularities in Ohio, everyone suspected that the electronic machines had been cooked to give W the win and screw Kerry out of the presidency.

We all had our suspicions, but we'll never know.

After this election, it seems very clear that the Russians either succeeded in hacking the vote totals, hacking the voter registration machinery, or hacking both, but they sure seemed like they were trying their damnedest.

We have our suspicions, but we'll never know.

In 2018, when we fail to win back either house in Congress, despite two years of the malicious and incompetent rule fo the GOP, we'll all suspect that the electronic voting and vote counting machines were rigged. But, say it with me, we'll never know.

We'll never know. We'll never know who is actually winning our elections. Ever.

until we collectively dump those mother fucking machines into the seas and vote on paper. Paper (or some other media) which leaves a physical trail of the vote, a solid, countable record, that can be counted, re-counted, and counted again if necessary.

no wondering.

Until then, we'll never know.

[Hoyt]

1. Kerry lost the minute Bin Laden released a video the Friday before the election. So, "everyone" did

not suspect the voting machines had been cooked. I was a big Kerry supporter -- and disgusted with george war bush -- and really thought the momentum was on Kerry's side. The moment that video was released, it was over.

Have no problem with paper or whatever other security protections are available, but Kerry lost, as did Clinton under the Electoral College rules. Now, GOPer lies, misrepresentation, gerrymandering in case of House elections, appealing to racism and other crud, suppression in some states, etc., are real, but that has nothing to do with vote tabulation.

[ProfessorPlum]

2. what kind of BS is this?

You've heard of Ken Blackwell? If Kerry actually won Ohio (which everyone actually does suspect, including the GOP) then Kerry did actually win the election. The same way that Gore actually won the election in 2000.


Nothing Bin Laden did 5 days before an election was going to change anyone's mind, that's nuts.

To your assertion that Kerry lost, I will note that we'll never know. As usual.

[mythology]

3. You do realize that media consortium that recounted Florida

Said Bush would likely have won with a full statewide recount right?

You are mistaking what you want to believe for what is real. For example you claim Russia hacked vote counting machines with absolutely zero evidence to support it.

[ProfessorPlum]

4. what I said was the evidence is quite clear that Russian hackers tried

investigations around the country are revealing that evidence.

as for Bush v Gore, I know that a media consortium did say early on that Bush would have won. They were, however, wrong:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/jan/29/uselections2000.usa

and I am not mistaking anything. What I said, accurately, is that we'll never know.

[ProfessorPlum]

5. more

An analysis of the NORC data by University of Pennsylvania researcher Steven F. Freeman and journalist Joel Bleifuss concluded that, no matter what standard is used, after a recount of all uncounted votes, Gore would have been the victor. Such a statewide review including all uncounted votes was a tangible possibility, as Leon County Circuit Court Judge Terry Lewis, whom the Florida Supreme Court had assigned to oversee the statewide recount, had scheduled a hearing for December 13 (mooted by the U.S. Supreme Court's final ruling on the 12th) to consider the question of including overvotes. Subsequent statements by Lewis and internal court documents support the likelihood that overvotes would have been included in the recount.Florida State University professor of public policy Lance deHaven-Smith observed that, even considering only undervotes, "under any of the five most reasonable interpretations of the Florida Supreme Court ruling, Gore does, in fact, more than make up the deficit".

Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting's analysis of the NORC study and media coverage of it supported these interpretations and criticized the coverage of the study by media outlets such as the New York Times and the other media consortium members for focusing on how events might have played out rather than on the statewide vote count

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_United_States_presidential_election_recount_in_Florida#Florida_Ballot_Project_recounts

emphasis mine

edit - well, I can't seem to add any emphasis. I'm trying to highlight the last sentence.

[ProfessorPlum]

6. ah, I see, what I wrote was not as clear as what I thought I wrote

what I meant was the Russians certainly tried to hack our electronic records, and may have succeeded.

My bad.

[Hoyt]

7. Sorry, I disagree. People whining about vote tampering every time we lose does not help Dems.

We lost in 2004, and it hurt. I have never been so depressed after an election. But, whining about conspiracies, etc., in cases like Ohio and Florida, make us look like stupid and impotent.


"The reason Kerry lost the election had much more to do with the war in Iraq and terrorism than the political ground war in Ohio. Terrorism trumped other issues at the polls -- including moral values -- and anxious voters tended to side with Bush."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A34157-2004Dec3.html


As long as 40% of Democrats sit at home and don't vote, we will lose a lot of elections. And this whining about the election is unfair, doesn't help the situation.

[ProfessorPlum]

8. this is a dumb position

if we eliminate electronic voting machines and vote counting machines, it will make it that much harder for the vote to be altered or falsified. We will then know that the vote wasn't rigged electronically.

The most we can say now about those past elections is we'll never know if they were rigged electronically or not. Your assurances that they were not are based on the same amount of evidence that claims of conspiracy have.

[Hoyt]

10. Well, I grew up with paper ballots. Every election had lost/stolen ballot boxes, miscounted ballots

and worse. People have been blaming losing an election on miscounted votes for a long time. It's like a boxer that loses and says they were robbed by the judges. In fact, in the South, the Demo(Dixie)crats were accused of cheating. Of course, they were just GOPers under the name of Democrats.

Again, I'm fine with paper ballots if that's what it takes to restore faith in our elections. But, I don't think as many people as you feel the actual voting process is tainted when our government is doing its job regarding cyber-security. I think things like healthcare, jobs, getting Dems elected at local level, etc., are for more important that grousing about voting machines that might be compromised.

Paper ballots, blue ink on thumbs, whatever, the losers will never know for sure.

[ProfessorPlum]

12. whatever dude

that's a lot of pixels to say that you agree with me

[ProfessorPlum]

9. also, did it ever occur to you that one thing suppressing the vote

may be that people feel that it is "rigged" as Donnie was so fond of spouting? Let's eliminate one of the easiest paths for rigging, together.

[Hoyt]

11. If I thought it were rigged, I wouldn't sit at home and not vote. That's for darn sure.

If Democrats are sitting at home because they think the election if rigged, then the GOPers have been successful convincing you and others it's rigged.

[ProfessorPlum]

13. again, how will we know

until we fix this problem