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DemocratSinceBirth

(99,705 posts)
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 09:38 PM Jul 2017

*****BREAKING*****WAPO- Trump considering pardoning himself and criminal associates

Some of President Trump’s lawyers are exploring ways to limit or undercut special counsel Robert S. Mueller III’s Russia investigation, building a case against what they allege are his conflicts of interest and discussing the president’s authority to grant pardons, according to people familiar with the effort.

Trump has asked his advisers about his power to pardon aides, family members and even himself in connection with the probe, according to one of those people. A second person said Trump’s lawyers have been discussing the president’s pardoning powers among themselves.

Trump’s legal team declined to comment on the issue. But one adviser said the president has simply expressed a curiosity in understanding the reach of his pardoning authority, as well as the limits of Mueller’s investigation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trumps-lawyers-seek-to-undercut-muellers-russia-investigation/2017/07/20/232ebf2c-6d71-11e7-b9e2-2056e768a7e5_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_trumplegal-925pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.9529d2061349

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*****BREAKING*****WAPO- Trump considering pardoning himself and criminal associates (Original Post) DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2017 OP
Maddow reporting Trumps lawyers looking into what Trumps authority would be to parden riversedge Jul 2017 #1
He cannot pardon State crimes in State courts like NY, NJ, etc... Madam45for2923 Jul 2017 #175
He knows Don Jr. is going to crack under pressure Thrill Jul 2017 #2
I think he gave Junior up gldstwmn Jul 2017 #71
Being anything but an expert in these matters, BobTheSubgenius Jul 2017 #91
New York Times is reporting too leftinalabama Jul 2017 #3
He's done. But if he leaves, we get Pence. dixiegrrrrl Jul 2017 #12
Dems need to make sure Pence, Ryan, and the rest of the Republican party klook Jul 2017 #39
They're not going to pay any price whatsoever, or even get charged for the bill, Volaris Jul 2017 #67
Pence is most probably compromisd as well Perseus Jul 2017 #43
If Trump was elected by fraud, then so was Pence. keithbvadu2 Jul 2017 #61
True.... unfortunately there's no way to undo an election groundloop Jul 2017 #66
As far as I know... IthinkThereforeIAM Jul 2017 #94
There is no mechanism to undo an election. Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #115
I wasn't implying that the election was ... IthinkThereforeIAM Jul 2017 #127
We will get Ryan then. Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #135
More likely Orrin Hatch... IthinkThereforeIAM Jul 2017 #144
e will get President Hatch, and hopefully a Dem in 2010 obamanut2012 Jul 2017 #146
More like Superintendsent Hatch jmowreader Jul 2017 #147
Yep...a Dem needs to win in 20, I hope we get the Senate in 18 and shut down Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #151
Why would you think that? regnaD kciN Jul 2017 #101
Couple scenarios are likely here. dixiegrrrrl Jul 2017 #129
Senate Intel committee will most likely hire Mueller if agent Orange fires him onetexan Jul 2017 #145
Schumer said something to that affect, in a stern tone. dixiegrrrrl Jul 2017 #152
trump cant say no to the senate onetexan Jul 2017 #155
I hope to God he can't walk away from this...truly a constitutional crisis. Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #114
Mueller's hound dogs are getting too close to the crime family's financial statements dalton99a Jul 2017 #4
I think you are right harun Jul 2017 #120
Every one of herr drumpf's actions screams of guilt. greatauntoftriplets Jul 2017 #5
Sure do. Blue_true Jul 2017 #10
Can he pardon himself before charges are Tiggeroshii Jul 2017 #6
How about others ? DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2017 #11
Ford pardoned Nixon prospectively marylandblue Jul 2017 #15
Yes but there's a catch! Worktodo Jul 2017 #21
Actually, there was a case like that in1915 marylandblue Jul 2017 #50
They will testify Cosmocat Jul 2017 #60
Sitting in a cell orangecrush Jul 2017 #78
How so? Cosmocat Jul 2017 #118
Didn't elderBush pardon Casper Weinberger even though not convicted? keithbvadu2 Jul 2017 #63
Weinberger was indicted DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2017 #117
Good question FarPoint Jul 2017 #59
Nixon has better moral fiber-refuse to pardon before resigning Catmusicfan Jul 2017 #7
Hey, GOP, you still okay with this? Barack_America Jul 2017 #8
If it keeps them in power? Bettie Jul 2017 #64
My guess......... SergeStorms Jul 2017 #65
"Don't mess with our rubber stamp!!" Beartracks Jul 2017 #158
Time for us to fasten our seatbelts, gang nt eleny Jul 2017 #9
Disgusting if everyone in this admin gets away with it due to pardon power OliverQ Jul 2017 #13
Trump's power to pardon dgibby Jul 2017 #44
Ahhhh sweet... FarPoint Jul 2017 #62
No, but Schneiderman can. smirkymonkey Jul 2017 #72
Can NY use the investigation data from Mueller? FarPoint Jul 2017 #81
I'm not sure. That's a good point. I am sure that Schneiderman smirkymonkey Jul 2017 #97
It should be able to as long as the collection didn't violate the constitution of NY dsc Jul 2017 #100
Wouldn't it be rich if any of those NY investigations resulted in asset R B Garr Jul 2017 #106
But if Drumpf implodes and takes himself off the board central scrutinizer Jul 2017 #14
If trump tried to pardon himself, it would definitely be challenged in the courts. For one still_one Jul 2017 #16
Yes, and didn't some congressman from Texas Mr.Bill Jul 2017 #30
The "except in cases of impeachment" clause means that the President can't prevent anyone... PoliticAverse Jul 2017 #79
Then that would apply Mr.Bill Jul 2017 #128
I'm pretty sure that the Supreme Court would reject the idea of a President being able.... PoliticAverse Jul 2017 #130
I agree, Mr.Bill Jul 2017 #140
I think it would be 9-0 if the issue were raised now. I don't think any more... PoliticAverse Jul 2017 #142
Al Green, from Houston n/t TexasBushwhacker Jul 2017 #95
It's very unlikely the Supreme Court would find that the President could pardon himself. n/t PoliticAverse Jul 2017 #76
I agree still_one Jul 2017 #93
So he pardons everybody, resigns and then pence pardons him elehhhhna Jul 2017 #136
That could indeed happen. n/t PoliticAverse Jul 2017 #138
There's enough popcorn for everybody, pass around MiddleClass Jul 2017 #17
Thanks! montana_hazeleyes Jul 2017 #36
You're welcome, a pleasure MiddleClass Jul 2017 #149
Thanks! think4yourself Jul 2017 #58
You're welcome, again a pleasure MiddleClass Jul 2017 #150
Is it possible Corgigal Jul 2017 #18
So this is how it ends? Signs of it anyway. Looks like they all R B Garr Jul 2017 #19
If running from criminal charges and pardoning himself gets him out of power... NightWatcher Jul 2017 #22
I hear you! Looks like he has an eye on the exit. R B Garr Jul 2017 #26
Mueller should let him know that it's a safe out. NightWatcher Jul 2017 #28
I hope they're all hitting the Constitutional books tonight to find a way. R B Garr Jul 2017 #29
Apparently presidential pardons are good for federal crimes only. Enoki33 Jul 2017 #52
Correct dflprincess Jul 2017 #56
Looks like New York might be hostile territory for him, then. He's insulted so R B Garr Jul 2017 #105
From your lips to Gods ear. sheshe2 Jul 2017 #102
It's like the Hunt for Red October in reverse. R B Garr Jul 2017 #103
Yup. sheshe2 Jul 2017 #104
But will he just stay in office with a complicit Congress? Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #116
We are living in HISTORIC times. Mrs. Overall Jul 2017 #20
... Oneironaut Jul 2017 #23
lol, that's good. R B Garr Jul 2017 #27
I know most presidents/aides that are ALBliberal Jul 2017 #24
But they can't be pardoned from crimes not yet committed. Mr.Bill Jul 2017 #34
Good point ALBliberal Jul 2017 #41
In theory angrychair Jul 2017 #54
Can he give them repeated blanket pardons? Generic Brad Jul 2017 #55
The President can't pardon away future crimes. n/t PoliticAverse Jul 2017 #80
But one adviser said the president has simply expressed a curiosity in understanding grantcart Jul 2017 #25
Apparently he's curious about Russian adoptions as well. flibbitygiblets Jul 2017 #47
We're really into brand new territory here NastyRiffraff Jul 2017 #31
I don't think there are many knowledgeable people that think the courts would allow... PoliticAverse Jul 2017 #86
Y'know, Trump... Pardoning is only for guilty parties. No, really. n/t Beartracks Jul 2017 #32
+1 CentralMass Jul 2017 #113
Obviously, trump cannot pardon his family or himself because that Akamai Jul 2017 #33
Trump can certainly pardon family members, but most likely not himself. n/t PoliticAverse Jul 2017 #83
Good distinction you make here, but if you think pardoning Akamai Jul 2017 #92
Trump is guilty of so much shit, let him pardon himself for something and then charge him with world wide wally Jul 2017 #35
The timing of this pardon talk appears as conspiracy to obstruct justice by 45 and his lawyers. ancianita Jul 2017 #37
If he's allowed to get away with this then our Constitution ecstatic Jul 2017 #38
That's an excellent point onetexan Jul 2017 #148
The wild card is charges at the NY state level. roamer65 Jul 2017 #40
More and more this state level prosecution ALBliberal Jul 2017 #46
Pardon us while we get sick. Marcuse Jul 2017 #42
I was waiting for this all along benld74 Jul 2017 #45
As Steve Schmidt said a few months ago Best_man23 Jul 2017 #48
So he admits he's guilty. BainsBane Jul 2017 #49
I smell blood. The big boom is coming!! And I hope it takes out the gop too AgadorSparticus Jul 2017 #51
To be pardonnrd you have to be guilty burrowowl Jul 2017 #53
Not necessarily, although it is somewhat an unsettled legal question. n/t PoliticAverse Jul 2017 #82
As I read Burdick v. US, 236 U.S. 79 (1915) TomSlick Jul 2017 #159
Well the thing is you can be pardoned even if you haven't committed any crimes. PoliticAverse Jul 2017 #160
An interesting question but TomSlick Jul 2017 #161
Well that's the question. If you are offered a pardon until you invoke that pardon... PoliticAverse Jul 2017 #162
Part of the problem TomSlick Jul 2017 #163
These are the sorts of questions you don't ask. Turbineguy Jul 2017 #57
This just gets better and better... Luciferous Jul 2017 #68
If he tries this then gldstwmn Jul 2017 #69
I hope the entire cabal goes down. gademocrat7 Jul 2017 #70
Down, down, down, in a burnin' ring of fire... Hekate Jul 2017 #74
STAND BACK! orangecrush Jul 2017 #73
Scorched Earth Coming DallasNE Jul 2017 #75
Claude just posted that Mueller has Trump's tax returns, because Comey had them. OliverQ Jul 2017 #77
Pardons could lead to impeachment Shoonra Jul 2017 #84
It was the plan all along.... Pachamama Jul 2017 #85
Bloody hell, this is major history we are witnessing... Puzzler Jul 2017 #87
Over a "fake news nothingburger"? Warren DeMontague Jul 2017 #88
I started a thread on this a while back Gothmog Jul 2017 #89
H Y P O C R I T E S ! ! ! ! Roland99 Jul 2017 #90
If a President could pardon himself why didn't Nixon? Lint Head Jul 2017 #96
Because Nixon had more class than 45. For everything bad about Nixon, you have to say... Midnight Writer Jul 2017 #98
Nixon had been an honorable WWII veteran. Trump has no patriotism. WinkyDink Jul 2017 #110
Well Nixon didn't even pardon the other people in his administration PoliticAverse Jul 2017 #99
I don't think Trump will. He wants to pardon himself. Lint Head Jul 2017 #107
Trump's admitting guilt for Hieronymus Jul 2017 #108
Can a President pardon himself? WinkyDink Jul 2017 #109
No Hieronymus Jul 2017 #112
Thank goodness for small favors! WinkyDink Jul 2017 #119
Trump's basically admitting that crimes octoberlib Jul 2017 #111
And when the evidence comes in that he is an international criminal working Eliot Rosewater Jul 2017 #126
Can't he still be impeached by Congress, even if he pardons himself? eShirl Jul 2017 #121
This is a Fiat Dictatorship bucolic_frolic Jul 2017 #122
It's a dictatorship if it's allowed to stand, and I have my doubts. Texin Jul 2017 #124
At this point, nothing would surprise me misanthrope Jul 2017 #169
Doesn't it sound as if he is exploring his options before tendering his resignation? Texin Jul 2017 #123
If that is the case.... Srkdqltr Jul 2017 #125
There is no right to self de-incrimination bucolic_frolic Jul 2017 #131
The Onion is now officially obsolete. matt819 Jul 2017 #132
This message was self-deleted by its author Jake Stern Jul 2017 #133
Only someone as dumb as Drumpf would think that he could actually pardon himself red dog 1 Jul 2017 #134
Clueless In Washington apkhgp Jul 2017 #137
Under what circumstance would he even consider such thoughts? He has no ties to Russia. ffr Jul 2017 #139
Bush the elder pardoned people who could have testified against him . . FairWinds Jul 2017 #141
I just cannot wrap my head around the idea that Trump might be able to pardon himself. hamsterjill Jul 2017 #143
There is really only one family member Cheetolini* wants to pardon... Raster Jul 2017 #153
What a frikkin carny side show we're in. BlancheSplanchnik Jul 2017 #154
Carnival barker. Props go to President Obama. mobeau69 Jul 2017 #167
Ah, thank you BlancheSplanchnik Jul 2017 #168
I'm pretty sure you can't pardon yourself Dopers_Greed Jul 2017 #156
And why would he even be asking about this if he or the family were clean? calimary Jul 2017 #157
When has Dipshit expressed a curiousity in anything? Thor_MN Jul 2017 #164
Self-pardoning is a very sovereign citizen move jmowreader Jul 2017 #165
If he does that everyone will know that they are without a doubt guilty. n/t Zing Zing Zingbah Jul 2017 #166
Trump will take every extreme unimaginable measure and get away unblemished Awsi Dooger Jul 2017 #170
Yes he can -- and Congress can impeach him for it! Shoonra Jul 2017 #171
The problem with that is Orcrist Jul 2017 #172
To be honest, at this point I don't even care about charges. logosoco Jul 2017 #173
He cannot pardon State crimes in State courts like NY, NJ, etc... Madam45for2923 Jul 2017 #174
He cannot pardon State crimes in State courts like NY, NJ, etc... Madam45for2923 Jul 2017 #176
Convictions are needed to exercise the pardon prerogative bucolic_frolic Jul 2017 #177

BobTheSubgenius

(11,535 posts)
91. Being anything but an expert in these matters,
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 11:48 PM
Jul 2017

my feeling is that Jr. has way less legal exposure than many others. He didn't submit a background disclosure, did he?

It makes sense that he is better able to take the hit. That, and his sperm donor is a snake that would throw everyone he knows down a flight of stairs, rather than take a legal hit himself.

leftinalabama

(30 posts)
3. New York Times is reporting too
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 09:43 PM
Jul 2017

Just saw on Rachael Maddow the New York Times is reporting the exact same thing. Twitler has asked his lawyers about how pardons work and even if he could Parden himself. Shit about to hit the fan.

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
12. He's done. But if he leaves, we get Pence.
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 09:54 PM
Jul 2017

Let's see how many Republicans walk away from him now...that will be key.

klook

(12,134 posts)
39. Dems need to make sure Pence, Ryan, and the rest of the Republican party
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 10:28 PM
Jul 2017

are yoked to Trump. Every 2018 ad should hammer this point. Trump's party has shamelessly defended him, way past the point of sanity and normalcy. They should be made to pay the price. The Republican brand stands for corruption and incompetence.

Volaris

(10,260 posts)
67. They're not going to pay any price whatsoever, or even get charged for the bill,
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 11:10 PM
Jul 2017

Unless peeps start getting charged with a Crime (s).
And not just any crime...it has to be severe enough and proofed enough that even Average Joe Citizen who can't be bothered to go vote or even pay attention, can understand the severity of it.

Then the GOP will pay a price for what they've enabled, and when THAT finally happens, the bill will be steep indeed.

groundloop

(11,488 posts)
66. True.... unfortunately there's no way to undo an election
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 11:07 PM
Jul 2017

If/when 45* is booted from the White House we'll almost certainly get Pence. Unfortunately he'll have a better understanding of how things work in Washington and we're likely to see more right wing bullshit passed. (Of course that's not to say the 45*'s dismantling of the EPA, healthcare, and everything else good about our government isn't totally screwed up).

IthinkThereforeIAM

(3,072 posts)
94. As far as I know...
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 12:00 AM
Jul 2017

... they already have Pence on the Flynn thingy(s). Lying about meeting with him and knowing what was prospering...

IthinkThereforeIAM

(3,072 posts)
144. More likely Orrin Hatch...
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 04:44 PM
Jul 2017

... all the GOP leadership is tainted with Russian connections except Hatch. Ryan does not want to be president by default. It will kill his political pay train, much like Ford after Nixon.

obamanut2012

(25,911 posts)
146. e will get President Hatch, and hopefully a Dem in 2010
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 05:05 PM
Jul 2017

No way Pence, McConnell, and Ryan aren't compromised.

jmowreader

(50,453 posts)
147. More like Superintendsent Hatch
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 05:25 PM
Jul 2017

After putting a double agent in the White House in 2016, the GOP ain't got the balls to do much more than keep the country running until 2020. The best thing they could possibly do is make Hatch the purported president, name the blandest Democrat they can as purported VP, then bring in Barack Obama as.a "special advisor" and let him run the country.

regnaD kciN

(26,035 posts)
101. Why would you think that?
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 12:44 AM
Jul 2017

He pardons everyone involved and ends the investigation. Do you think the Republicans would impeach him? I don't. It would be "case closed, time to move on." And, frankly, I think most Americans would just shrug and switch to talking about what was going to happen next on Game Of Thrones.

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
129. Couple scenarios are likely here.
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 01:45 PM
Jul 2017

!. He writes one of his Exec. Orders pardoning everybody.
It instantly is challenged, goes to court, and one side or the other will appeal the decision, thus it wends its way up to SCOTUS.
which takes time.
Investigation continues during this time.
Meanwhile, the NY state Attorney general, who has been working with Preet Bahra, can still charge the kids and Trump's associates on money laundering, which has a HUGE financial penalty, plus a slew of other charges.

Same thing if a law is put to Congress for a vote. It would never pass now that Trump has so severely damaged the GOP brand.

2. Less thinkable but still possible: He resigns.
As a no longer President, he is instantly open to State law...hello NY State Attorney.

Meanwhile, even today, Mueller is making a long list of who did what, and the Senate Intell committee and the Senate Judiciary Comm. are still holding hearings.

Dept. of Treasury and FBI have been investigating also, they turned their information over to Mueller.

Trump has not much room to maneuver.

onetexan

(12,994 posts)
145. Senate Intel committee will most likely hire Mueller if agent Orange fires him
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 04:52 PM
Jul 2017

The idiot will not get away scottfree. those are realistic scenarios you've presented.

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
152. Schumer said something to that affect, in a stern tone.
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 06:05 PM
Jul 2017

Unfortunately, Trump has shown us that he ignores the word NO.

greatauntoftriplets

(175,698 posts)
5. Every one of herr drumpf's actions screams of guilt.
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 09:46 PM
Jul 2017

If he has nothing to hide (ha ha!), why stop the investigation and start issuing pardons? Doesn't he realize that the optics are terrible to all except his cultists?

Worktodo

(288 posts)
21. Yes but there's a catch!
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 10:06 PM
Jul 2017

Ford pardoned Nixon for any crimes against the United States "committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 20, 1969 through August 9, 1974." This is before Nixon was charged with a crime.

So yes it is possible. However the catch is that once pardoned there would be a great legal argument that self incrimination is no longer possible -- and therefore would not apply. So pardoning Manafort for example might require him to provide testimony, and if that testimony was proven false, would be guilty of perjury.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
50. Actually, there was a case like that in1915
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 10:43 PM
Jul 2017

They wanted to compel testimony from someone who pleaded the fifth amendment, so the President gave him a pardon. He refused the pardon, thereby asserting his innocence but retaining his right to plead the fifth. So if all the guilty parties accept pardons, they can all be compelled to testify. Once Trump hears that, he won't be pardoning anybody.

Cosmocat

(14,543 posts)
118. How so?
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 08:07 AM
Jul 2017

If they are pardoned?

Next time someone at that level is held in contempt will be the first.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,705 posts)
117. Weinberger was indicted
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 07:18 AM
Jul 2017

What are the parameters of the pardon:

-for federal offenses while serving in government


-for any federal offense the person granted the pardon ever committed or will commit


It seems you have to know what the person did before you pardon him or her.

Bettie

(15,998 posts)
64. If it keeps them in power?
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 11:04 PM
Jul 2017

You bet they're OK with it! Better than OK, they are positively orgasmic about it.

SergeStorms

(18,901 posts)
65. My guess.........
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 11:04 PM
Jul 2017

is yes, they'll be fine with this. As long as it isn't connected to them, they couldn't care less how badly Trump destroys America, as long as it's to their party's benefit, that is. Should Democrats and Liberals somehow benefit........now that's a different story. They'd be happy to jettison Trump, and their story line will be, "well, he was NEVER really one of us. He was NEVER a REAL Conservative". Like a "real" Conservative could have done anything more harmful to the country, and the people in it.

Beartracks

(12,761 posts)
158. "Don't mess with our rubber stamp!!"
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 09:02 PM
Jul 2017

"He's legit! He's, uh, just new at this! Yeah, that's it. And he's, uh, just really busy making the country great again! Please, please, pleeeeease don't get rid of him!!!"

==========

dgibby

(9,474 posts)
44. Trump's power to pardon
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 10:34 PM
Jul 2017

only covers Fed. crimes, not state, so no doubt NY will finish him and his crime family off.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
97. I'm not sure. That's a good point. I am sure that Schneiderman
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 12:32 AM
Jul 2017

has more than enough on Trump, but I don't see why Muller couldn't pass on his data if he was fired for some reason. Trump has been into criminal activity for years in NY and NJ. If they can't get him on the Russian thing, there are plenty of other offenses that he is guilty of.

R B Garr

(16,920 posts)
106. Wouldn't it be rich if any of those NY investigations resulted in asset
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 12:58 AM
Jul 2017

forfeitures, like taking Trump Towers. Make Manhattan Great Again by closing Trump Towers. Not sure if that's what the penalty could be, but one can dream...

central scrutinizer

(11,617 posts)
14. But if Drumpf implodes and takes himself off the board
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 09:56 PM
Jul 2017

All of those assholes in Congress who did nothing can scurry to cover in the confusion. They may emerge unscathed.

still_one

(91,963 posts)
16. If trump tried to pardon himself, it would definitely be challenged in the courts. For one
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 09:58 PM
Jul 2017

thing, a pardon implies something another person has to do.

Second, the Constitution indicates that the President has the power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the U.S., EXCEPT in Cases of Impeachment.

The main issue before the SC would be that the Constitution was setup so there is a system of checks and balances, and if the President was allowed to pardon himself, it would go against those checks and balances




Mr.Bill

(24,104 posts)
30. Yes, and didn't some congressman from Texas
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 10:18 PM
Jul 2017

file articles of impeachment? No one thought it had a chance of passing, but it would mean that impeachment proceedings are in process.

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
79. The "except in cases of impeachment" clause means that the President can't prevent anyone...
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 11:30 PM
Jul 2017

from being impeached by granting them a pardon. It doesn't mean that if the President
is being impeached that his pardon power becomes limited.

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
130. I'm pretty sure that the Supreme Court would reject the idea of a President being able....
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 01:47 PM
Jul 2017

to pardon themself.

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
142. I think it would be 9-0 if the issue were raised now. I don't think any more...
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 03:40 PM
Jul 2017

appointments would change the direction the decision went.

Corgigal

(9,291 posts)
18. Is it possible
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 10:01 PM
Jul 2017

that trump pardons himself and all his past criminal behaviors, but decides to stay president? Is that even possible?

Damn, got a headache now.

NightWatcher

(39,343 posts)
22. If running from criminal charges and pardoning himself gets him out of power...
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 10:06 PM
Jul 2017

We know impeachment won't work with the repuke congress.

R B Garr

(16,920 posts)
29. I hope they're all hitting the Constitutional books tonight to find a way.
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 10:12 PM
Jul 2017

This is amazing. I wonder if he's even safe in New York with the investigations into him there. He might need to go to Russia to escape it all.

dflprincess

(28,057 posts)
56. Correct
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 10:55 PM
Jul 2017

And should Mueller or the New York State Attorney General (also investigating) find members of the crime family broke state law, they'll still be on hook for that.

R B Garr

(16,920 posts)
105. Looks like New York might be hostile territory for him, then. He's insulted so
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 12:52 AM
Jul 2017

many people, I bet a few would like a chance for justice.

ALBliberal

(2,304 posts)
24. I know most presidents/aides that are
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 10:08 PM
Jul 2017

pardoned would resign their positions. But this crazy bunch? Would pardon and resignation necessarily be hand in hand in their minds? I know it's a big stretch to wonder about these things....but this administration seems to flaunt breaking the law and pushing bounds of normalcy. And with their cult following and congressional enablers....

Mr.Bill

(24,104 posts)
34. But they can't be pardoned from crimes not yet committed.
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 10:21 PM
Jul 2017

Not committing any more crimes is an impossibility for these people. And state AGs would pounce on them all over the country. Anywhere they've done business.

angrychair

(8,594 posts)
54. In theory
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 10:48 PM
Jul 2017

They could just keep committing crimes and keep pardoning themselves as they go. The way it's written there is nothing stopping them...sure isn't congress or voters.

grantcart

(53,061 posts)
25. But one adviser said the president has simply expressed a curiosity in understanding
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 10:09 PM
Jul 2017

Yes well the President is well known for being an intellectually curious fellow

flibbitygiblets

(7,220 posts)
47. Apparently he's curious about Russian adoptions as well.
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 10:38 PM
Jul 2017

Who knew?

Apparently he thinks we don't know "Russian adoptions" is code for "sanctions due to Magnitsky Act". Shhhh, it's a secret!!

NastyRiffraff

(12,448 posts)
31. We're really into brand new territory here
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 10:19 PM
Jul 2017

Going back to Nixon, he didn't (couldn't?) pardon himself. Of course, Ford did it for him. It's still an open question--CAN a president pardon himself? If so, what next? He stays in office? Impeachment? Do we revisit the idea that a president cannot be criminally prosecuted? That's an idea that has been accepted, but constitutionally, is it possible?

We've seen nothing like this before. Watergate is the closest, but even that pales beside what we're seeing now. And we haven't seen all of it yet.

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
86. I don't think there are many knowledgeable people that think the courts would allow...
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 11:38 PM
Jul 2017

a President to pardon themself.

 

Akamai

(1,779 posts)
33. Obviously, trump cannot pardon his family or himself because that
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 10:21 PM
Jul 2017

would be the end of democracy and the start of the monarchy.

 

Akamai

(1,779 posts)
92. Good distinction you make here, but if you think pardoning
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 11:49 PM
Jul 2017

yourself does not pass muster them I think pardoning your family is tantamount to pardoning himself.

onetexan

(12,994 posts)
148. That's an excellent point
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 05:40 PM
Jul 2017

Maybe it takes something like this to warrant a review of the U.S. Constitution.

roamer65

(36,739 posts)
40. The wild card is charges at the NY state level.
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 10:29 PM
Jul 2017

Gov. Cuomo won't pardon and Dump's pardon is useless against them.

Best_man23

(4,890 posts)
48. As Steve Schmidt said a few months ago
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 10:39 PM
Jul 2017

If Trump fires Mueller, or (I would imagine) pardons his family or himself, then 2018 immediately becomes a referendum on Russia. His presidency will in essence and fact be all but over.

AgadorSparticus

(7,963 posts)
51. I smell blood. The big boom is coming!! And I hope it takes out the gop too
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 10:45 PM
Jul 2017

I used to think the gop sold their soul to the devil. Now I am pretty sure his name is Vlad.

TomSlick

(11,035 posts)
159. As I read Burdick v. US, 236 U.S. 79 (1915)
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 09:26 PM
Jul 2017

A pardon has to be accepted by the pardoned person to be effective AND if accepted is an admission of guilt. If Trump attempts to pardon himself, that act alone would be an admission of guilt of something - even if it is later found that a President cannot pardon himself.

I think there is a really good reason for Trump to not pardon anyone. If someone is pardoned - say Jered - there is no potential for self-incrimination and, therefore, no 5th Amendment right to refuse to testify.

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
160. Well the thing is you can be pardoned even if you haven't committed any crimes.
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 09:51 PM
Jul 2017

For example suppose the President pardoned you for any crimes you committed during the
years 2014-2015. The President could do that even if no one has accused you of committing
a federal crime during that time. If you accept the pardon does that mean you committed a
federal crime during that time? Couldn't you just say "thanks for the pardon even though I don't
need it".

Remember Burdict v US was about the right to reject a pardon not so much about what
accepting a pardon really meant legally.

Although a pardon would prevent someone using their 5th amendment right to refuse to testify
they could always say "I don't recall" during testimony and who could disprove that?
A prosecutor would have greater leverage over someone who wasn't pardoned but could be
prosecuted as the prosecutor could demand a proffer agreement in return for an immunity offer.




TomSlick

(11,035 posts)
161. An interesting question but
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 10:06 PM
Jul 2017

the discussion of the effect of accepting a pardon was too central to the decision to be mere dicta. The confusing bit was what is required to accept a pardon. It can be argued that a pardon is only accepted if pled as a bar to a criminal charge. If that's correct, Nixon never accepted his pardon.

On the other hand, assume the following scenario:
(1) Jared is pardoned for all federal crimes before the date of the pardon.
(2) Jared is called to testify before Congress, Grand Jury, or trial.
(3) He attempts to invoke under the 5th Amendment but the invocation is challenged on the basis of the pardon.

I think at that point Jared would have to specifically decline the pardon or testify.

Now the hard question: Where is it written that a pardon has to be made public? Why couldn't Jared be given a secret pardon?

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
162. Well that's the question. If you are offered a pardon until you invoke that pardon...
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 10:48 PM
Jul 2017

in court have you accepted it yet? According the court's opinion it seems the answer is no.
So it seems before the question is raised in court the pardoned person's accept or reject
option remains.

Interesting question about the secret pardon. To be invoked the recipient would have to tell someone
(judge or prosecutor) and at that point it seems it would become public knowledge.

Suppose a President gives a "secret pardon" to someone while president and after they are no longer
President that person is being accused of a crime and they produce the pardon letter at that time - would
the court accept it? Would the ex-President have to testify as to the validity of that pardon?
Wouldn't that be subject to abuse allowing an unscrupulous ex-president to grant pardons after
their presidential term ended?


TomSlick

(11,035 posts)
163. Part of the problem
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 10:52 PM
Jul 2017

is that the way the Court wrote in 1915 is so different than the language we use today that it is really difficult to parse.

Turbineguy

(37,212 posts)
57. These are the sorts of questions you don't ask.
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 10:57 PM
Jul 2017

If you have any curiosity, you quietly research the subject and let nobody know....

The question in this case is more revealing than the answer. It betrays total guilt as well as profound ignorance.

This post courtesy of the Turbineguy Course on "How to be President, a Guide for the Compleat Idiot".

DallasNE

(7,392 posts)
75. Scorched Earth Coming
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 11:27 PM
Jul 2017

Surely the Congress will not put up with that. And the lawyers performing this "service" will rightfully see their careers go over the cliff.

 

OliverQ

(3,363 posts)
77. Claude just posted that Mueller has Trump's tax returns, because Comey had them.
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 11:28 PM
Jul 2017

Trump is freaking out about Mueller having access to them.

Shoonra

(518 posts)
84. Pardons could lead to impeachment
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 11:35 PM
Jul 2017

Back when the Constitution was first being adopted, in 1788, a comment in the debates in the Ratification Convention in Virginia explained that the President's use of his pardoning power to cushion his henchmen in some nefarious scheme would be sufficiently offensive to justify his impeachment and removal from office. I'm just saying ......

Puzzler

(2,505 posts)
87. Bloody hell, this is major history we are witnessing...
Thu Jul 20, 2017, 11:39 PM
Jul 2017

I knew Trump would be appalling, truly appalling, but I did not expect utter chaos from Day One.

Trump seems to have deteriorated so much in his (so far) short term, that I seriously question if he is even aware what fucking year it is. I'm serious.

One thing is for sure, regardless of what happens, something huge has to change in the US system of government. This should never happen again. The US, and the rest of the world cannot be held hostage every 4 years, to whichever nutjob happens to be running for the Presidency.

-Puzzler

Midnight Writer

(21,548 posts)
98. Because Nixon had more class than 45. For everything bad about Nixon, you have to say...
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 12:41 AM
Jul 2017

He stepped down not because he thought he would be removed, but because he didn't want his beloved country to endure the international spectacle and internal divisiveness of an impeachment trial.

Eliot Rosewater

(31,097 posts)
126. And when the evidence comes in that he is an international criminal working
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 12:10 PM
Jul 2017

with murderous dictators, his base will love him even more.

He will NEVER lose what is in reality well over 40% of those who VOTE. You see the number of people who support him or dont doesnt matter unless they VOTE. And most of them VOTE.

eShirl

(18,466 posts)
121. Can't he still be impeached by Congress, even if he pardons himself?
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 09:58 AM
Jul 2017

"High crimes and misdemeanors" are whatever Congress decides they are, I'm told.
And impeachment is a political thing, not a justice thing.

and Separation of Powers too, also

bucolic_frolic

(42,676 posts)
122. This is a Fiat Dictatorship
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 10:19 AM
Jul 2017

pardoning all these criminals or firing the Special Prosecutor or even replacing him
is to make the Rule of Law defunct - kaput, so yesterday!

This is coming to a head very quickly.

So your input - planning ahead - all members here - is important

What will happen if he does either, or more likely, BOTH of those things - pardons
a slew of comrades and fires Bob Mueller?

How will it play out? How will the country react? What will you do, what can you do?

Texin

(2,585 posts)
124. It's a dictatorship if it's allowed to stand, and I have my doubts.
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 10:51 AM
Jul 2017

By his actions he's admitted that he and his family syndicate have broken the laws foreign and domestic.

misanthrope

(7,405 posts)
169. At this point, nothing would surprise me
Sun Jul 23, 2017, 12:00 AM
Jul 2017

Sure the GOP on the Hill could shock us and do the right thing, but I'm not betting on it. Without the cooperation of Republicans in the House and Senate, nothing gets done.

Texin

(2,585 posts)
123. Doesn't it sound as if he is exploring his options before tendering his resignation?
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 10:46 AM
Jul 2017

After hearing this stunning report (at least it would have been stunning if he's able to actually do anything now that does have the power to stun), that's the only conclusion I can actually make in this circumstance. Obviously, he can't pardon himself. And from everything I know about how the pardon process actually works, the individual being granted a pardon must first have been prosecuted and convicted of a crime for which there has been an actual sentence and/or damages rendered. In other words, how can he pardon himself or anyone else until the full legal process is concluded. He can't preemptively pardon himself or anyone else.

It sounds as if he is beginning to resign himself to an inevitable process that will (probably) drive him out of office in the face of possible actions on his part, i.e., firing Mueller, and maybe Rosenstein (or forcing his resignation), which would then (probably) result in a formal process of impeachment. It just sounds like he is thinking of stalling and casting a life preserver to Don Jr. and anyone else involved in this investigation and then resigning and allowing Pence to pardon him, and he may be considering having conversations with key repuke legislators in order to effect this.

Srkdqltr

(6,129 posts)
125. If that is the case....
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 12:07 PM
Jul 2017

He knows they will be charged and convicted. A pardon is an admission of guilt. One has to be guilty of something to be pardoned.

Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Original post)

apkhgp

(1,068 posts)
137. Clueless In Washington
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 02:49 PM
Jul 2017

Starring every last asshole, dum jerk, and moron that can lower themselves to serve in a 45 administration.

ffr

(22,649 posts)
139. Under what circumstance would he even consider such thoughts? He has no ties to Russia.
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 02:56 PM
Jul 2017

Let me repeat. He has no ties to Russia. It's all fake news.

So why would even entertain such thoughts? It makes completely no sense from that perspective, doesn't it!

 

FairWinds

(1,717 posts)
141. Bush the elder pardoned people who could have testified against him . .
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 03:36 PM
Jul 2017

in the Iran-Contra scandal.

He got away with it.

NYT "But in a single stroke, Mr. Bush swept away one conviction, three guilty pleas and two pending cases, virtually decapitating what was left of Mr. Walsh's effort, which began in 1986. Mr. Bush's decision was announced by the White House in a printed statement after the President left for Camp David, where he will spend the Christmas holiday.
Mr. Walsh bitterly condemned the President's action, charging that "the Iran-contra cover-up, which has continued for more than six years, has now been completed.""

hamsterjill

(15,214 posts)
143. I just cannot wrap my head around the idea that Trump might be able to pardon himself.
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 04:16 PM
Jul 2017

Surely there is some legal repercussion - SOMETHING - that forbids this. Otherwise, we have never really had a democracy. It's absurd.



Raster

(20,996 posts)
153. There is really only one family member Cheetolini* wants to pardon...
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 06:06 PM
Jul 2017

...and that would be Ivanka*. Don Jr. can go pound sand, wet the bed, whatever. And maybe Jar-Jar*, after all, he is the Golden Child*s mate.

calimary

(80,699 posts)
157. And why would he even be asking about this if he or the family were clean?
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 08:50 PM
Jul 2017

Why do we ask about whether we can pardon ourselves, your lordship?

 

Thor_MN

(11,843 posts)
164. When has Dipshit expressed a curiousity in anything?
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 11:05 PM
Jul 2017

He is running scared, he knows that if the truth comes out, he is done.

jmowreader

(50,453 posts)
165. Self-pardoning is a very sovereign citizen move
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 11:39 PM
Jul 2017

Some sovereign citizens believe they can dismiss their own court cases. They have two theories. One says if the judge puts the court in recess the highest official in the room is the "man" on trial and he, as the administrator for the trust that got caught traveling freely (aka driving without a license) he can dismiss the case. The other is that you can just refuse to consent to the court's jurisdiction and walk out a free man. None of this actually works.

Trump pardoning himself would be similar. I think if he tried it we'd find out if you really can pardo a ham sandwich.

 

Awsi Dooger

(14,565 posts)
170. Trump will take every extreme unimaginable measure and get away unblemished
Sun Jul 23, 2017, 12:25 AM
Jul 2017

There is no reason to believe otherwise. Don't underestimate the stupidity and blind loyalty of his followers. My Republican aunt today told me that Democrats were "subhuman" for failing to allow Trump to do his job and fix the country. I've never even heard her use that word but today it applied to all Democrats.

After we argued briefly about that she changed the subject and wanted to talk about O.J. Simpson being released from prison. We live in Miami so local news continues to cover the possibility that O.J. might return here. That O.J talk was even more unbelievable. She said she read on her smart phone that O.J. never would have gone to jail except for Mark Fuhrman. Somehow she thought he was related to the second O.J. trial, not the first. When I tried to correct her on that she snapped at me and said, "Oh sure. I'm wrong again. You know everything."

Then she hung up in disgust.

That's the caliber we're dealing with. The Republicans in congress have zero risk in pretending Trump has done nothing wrong. The legions will willingly look away and with right wing media help pretend Mueller was at fault. The billionaire GOP supporters will fuel it further with relentless ad campaigns, on television and all the online sources.

Rachel can uncover the truth every weeknight but it leads nowhere.

Shoonra

(518 posts)
171. Yes he can -- and Congress can impeach him for it!
Sun Jul 23, 2017, 03:19 AM
Jul 2017

The President's pardoning power is nearly unlimited. Just like Congress's impeachment power.

In June 1788, at the Virginia state convention called to ratify the proposed National Constitution, George Mason said:

"Now, I conceive that the President ought not to have the power of pardoning, because he may frequently pardon crimes which were advised by himself. It may happen, at some future day, that he will establish a monarchy and destroy the republic. If he has the power of granting pardons before indictment or conviction, may he not stop inquiry and prevent detection? The case of treason ought, at least, to be except. This is a weighty objection with me. ..."

To which James Madison answered:

"There is one security in this case to which gentlemen may not have adverted; if the President be connected in any suspicious manner with any person, and there be grounds to believe he will shelter him, the House of Representatives can impeach him, they can remove him if found guilty.... This is a great security."

[Jonathan Elliot, Debates in the several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution, vol. 3 (1901, Phil., Lippincott) pages 497-498.]

 

Orcrist

(73 posts)
172. The problem with that is
Sun Jul 23, 2017, 04:19 AM
Jul 2017

You have to have a congress willing to impeach him for such blatant behavior. We have one that not only wouldn't impeach him but would actively defend him instead. And they will suffer no consequences for their failure to counter such abuse of power by the president because the people voting for them don't give a shit either.

I live in Alabama among these Trump hardcore bastards. They think every negative word spoken about Trump is fake news. They still love him. Don't believe any of the Russian stuff. That being the case the elected officials from here in Alabama would risk nothing by ignoring any abuse of power. In fact doing the right thing would be the move that cost them votes. Maybe even get them defeated by a primary challenger in the next election.

There aren't enough people of integrity left in the Republican party to impeach Trump just because he deserved it and it was the right thing to do. Fear of the wrath of their voters back home is the only thing that could motivate most of them and I just do not see that happening. The Trump voters live in their own Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, bubble of misinformation that is virtually impossible to penetrate. If after all that we have seen of Trump and his shady dealings so far these people still love the bastard what can happen that will take them to a point where they are pressuring their representative to impeach? I just don't see it.

The only hope I see is the 2018 elections. Take back congress and then we are in business. Even if the republicans hold the senate, losing the house would be a wake up call.

logosoco

(3,208 posts)
173. To be honest, at this point I don't even care about charges.
Sun Jul 23, 2017, 07:50 AM
Jul 2017

I just want tRump, his greedy selfish family and all of the backward cabinet members to leave and go far, far away from where they have any way to impact our country and the government.
Just go away now and never come back.

bucolic_frolic

(42,676 posts)
177. Convictions are needed to exercise the pardon prerogative
Sun Jul 23, 2017, 10:09 AM
Jul 2017

One cannot pardon the innocent

A plenary indulgence is the closest thing, but it's an other-worldly power

Is this a game of Monopoly?

Get out of Jail Free

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