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Fri Jul 21, 2017, 10:03 PM

 

Is it right that whoever a President pardons cannot then plead the 5th b/c cannot incriminate self

Last edited Sat Jul 22, 2017, 07:03 AM - Edit history (2)

any longer? Is this like immunity?


Edit to add this article link provided by PoliticAverse:

How a Presidential Pardon Could Backfire

President Trump is considering pardoning family members and staffers caught up in the Russia investigation, but legal experts warn that it could backfire by making it harder for them to avoid testifying.

Under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution, Americans are protected against self-incrimination, but people who have been pardoned are no longer under any legal jeopardy, Harvard Law School Professor Laurence Tribe told TIME.

"Anyone pardoned by Trump would lose most of the 5th Amendmentís protection against compelled testimony that might otherwise have incriminated the pardoned family member or associate, making it much easier for DOJ and Congress to require such individuals to give testimony that could prove highly incriminating to Trump himself," Tribe said in an email.

http://time.com/4868418/donald-trump-presidential-pardons-backfire/

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Arrow 22 replies Author Time Post
Reply Is it right that whoever a President pardons cannot then plead the 5th b/c cannot incriminate self (Original post)
Madam45for2923 Jul 2017 OP
Foamfollower Jul 2017 #1
Madam45for2923 Jul 2017 #5
Kaleva Jul 2017 #2
forgotmylogin Jul 2017 #18
GulfCoast66 Jul 2017 #3
Madam45for2923 Jul 2017 #11
PoliticAverse Jul 2017 #4
Madam45for2923 Jul 2017 #6
Stinky The Clown Jul 2017 #7
Madam45for2923 Jul 2017 #10
TomSlick Jul 2017 #8
Madam45for2923 Jul 2017 #9
byronius Jul 2017 #12
wcmagumba Jul 2017 #13
Madam45for2923 Jul 2017 #14
TomSlick Jul 2017 #15
Madam45for2923 Jul 2017 #16
TomSlick Jul 2017 #17
dsc Jul 2017 #19
Madam45for2923 Jul 2017 #20
Madam45for2923 Jul 2017 #21
Madam45for2923 Jul 2017 #22

Response to Madam45for2923 (Original post)

Fri Jul 21, 2017, 10:05 PM

1. That's the legal theory.

 

Not a lot of precedent to support it, though there is some and nothing in precedent counters it.

The key is, refusing to testify would be felony contempt and lying in testimony would still be perjury, which mens both would require an additional pardon.

It's also why Nixon didn't pardon anybody.

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Response to Foamfollower (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 21, 2017, 10:09 PM

5. Interesting and interesting about Nizon not pardoning anyone because of that.

 

Had not thought of that!

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Response to Madam45for2923 (Original post)

Fri Jul 21, 2017, 10:06 PM

2. That's the way I understand it

A person who accepts a pardon, and by doing so is admitting guilt, cannot plead the 5th and has to answer all questions or be held in contempt and if they lie, face perjury charges.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #2)

Sat Jul 22, 2017, 12:40 AM

18. And they cannot plead the 5th...

because that specific plea protects people from being coerced to incriminate themselves in a crime. Since they are pardoned for the crime, there is no danger of self-incrimination, so not answering truthfully is perjury or contempt.

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Response to Madam45for2923 (Original post)

Fri Jul 21, 2017, 10:07 PM

3. bingo

If they fail to testify they can be held in contempt.

If they lie, they can be charged with perjury.

Accepting a pardon is an admission of guilt. When the go to testify, they testify as an guilty person.

But do you see a republican congress holding any of Trumps toadies in contempt?

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #3)

Fri Jul 21, 2017, 10:16 PM

11. 2018 is around the corner though.

 

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Response to Madam45for2923 (Original post)

Fri Jul 21, 2017, 10:08 PM

4. Yes. For a discussion see this Time Magazine article...

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Response to PoliticAverse (Reply #4)

Fri Jul 21, 2017, 10:10 PM

6. Thanks for the info/link!!!

 

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Response to Madam45for2923 (Original post)

Fri Jul 21, 2017, 10:12 PM

7. A clear example of being careful what you wish for.

A pardoned Jarvanka will be compelled to roll over on Two Scoops

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Reply #7)

Fri Jul 21, 2017, 10:16 PM

10. Or people not pardoned might roll on Donald.

 

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Response to Madam45for2923 (Original post)

Fri Jul 21, 2017, 10:13 PM

8. If a person is pardoned

and if s/he accepts the pardon, then s/he cannot invoke the 5th Amendment because there is no risk of self-incrimination. However, a pardon is only effective if accepted by the person pardoned because the acceptance of a pardon is an admission of guilt. See, Burdick v. US, 236 U.S. 79 (1915).

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Response to TomSlick (Reply #8)

Fri Jul 21, 2017, 10:15 PM

9. Aha! So good to know.

 

Thank you for the info.

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Response to TomSlick (Reply #8)

Fri Jul 21, 2017, 10:19 PM

12. Thanks for that, good to know.

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Response to Madam45for2923 (Original post)

Fri Jul 21, 2017, 10:21 PM

13. But...

they could be pardoned for additional charges it seems....Kinda an infinity of pardons possible...crazy times.

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Response to wcmagumba (Reply #13)

Fri Jul 21, 2017, 10:23 PM

14. One good thing is that Presidents cannot do pardons in the individual States courts like NY, NJ etc.

 

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Response to wcmagumba (Reply #13)

Fri Jul 21, 2017, 10:25 PM

15. Correct

The pardon power is extraordinarily broad. The drafters assumed a minimum level of decency on the part of public officials. But we know what comes of assuming.

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Response to TomSlick (Reply #15)

Fri Jul 21, 2017, 10:28 PM

16. But he cannot pardon in States' courts!

 

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Response to Madam45for2923 (Original post)

Fri Jul 21, 2017, 10:37 PM

17. Also correct.

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Response to Madam45for2923 (Original post)

Sat Jul 22, 2017, 01:00 AM

19. For the most part I think that is correct but I can see scenarios where it might not be

For example, lets say while Kushner was meeting with the Russians about stealing the election he also killed a hooker but Trump only pardoned him for the stealing of the election. He still could plead the fifth for questions that would lead to the discovery that he killed the hooker.

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Response to dsc (Reply #19)

Sat Jul 22, 2017, 06:59 AM

20. But if not pardoned for something can get prosecuted for that exact something.

 

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Response to Madam45for2923 (Original post)

Sat Jul 22, 2017, 01:33 PM

21. Kicking!

 

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Response to Madam45for2923 (Original post)

Sun Jul 23, 2017, 08:53 PM

22. Kicking!

 

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