Who do DUers think is funding the unrest in Venezuela?

[malaise]

It has a familiar pattern

[virtualobserver]

1. big awl?

[malaise]

5. Nailed it

[madokie]

11. Big oil

our CIA.

We've, well, our rich along with their private army, the CIA, have been giving the people and government hell for a long time now. And its not only Venezuela either. All of South America pretty much for as long as I can remember

[malaise]

39. Ding ding

[hack89]

47. Makes no sense.

we can get all the VZ oil we want. We are the only country that can economically refine their type of crude.

[virtualobserver]

50. so, big oil was happy when they nationalized the oil industry?

[malaise]

52. Big oil suddenly announced that lots of that Venezuelan oil

was in the section disputed with Guyana (that crazy border dispute created by the British back when),. Suddenly Guyana has all this oil for Tilly's folks.

[hack89]

63. VZ claims 40% of Guyana's territory

and all of Guyana's territorial waters. It was never VZ's oil. Where the oil was discovered has been Guyana's since 1905. This issue laid dormant for decades until Guyana discovered oil.

[malaise]

79. Be very careful what you say about Guyana and politics in Guyana

and it was the British who drew those borders and they made a mess everywhere they went. The Guyana-Venezuela dispute has come up at regular intervals.

It is a complete lie that this lay dormant until oil was discovered.

[hack89]

81. It is also a complete lie to say that it is unquestionably VZ's oil

the borders were set by an international commission in 1905. The present borders are the legally recognized borders.

This is an attempted land grab by VZ. Nothing more.

[hack89]

59. Nationalization was a disaster, I grant you that.

(more so for VZ then the oil companies ) but with the US becoming an net oil exporter due to fracking, I don't think they care anymore. They have written off their loses, are making record profits, and have absolutely no incentive to get back into VZ. They know that regardless of who pumps the crude, they will make a shit ton of money of VZ because VZ has no choice but to sell their oil to America.

[EX500rider]

74. You mean back in 1973 when they did it?

[Blue_Tires]

80. Please... Maduro brought this shit on his own head

If he wasn't such a despot and at least pretended he gave a shit about the rights about his citizens, he probably would have been able to smooth it all out by now...

[Not Ruth]

2. CIA?

[JI7]

3. no

[gordianot]

4. To whatever degree the Deep State existed they have their hands full beyond Venezuela.

Sometimes with sheer incompetence you get what you deserve. That includes the good old USA.

[hack89]

6. Pure homegrown incompetence and corruption

They ran their own country into the ground.

[Amishman]

23. This, their government doesn't seem to need any help imploding their economy

Just look at how they and their oil industry. They drove off the experts running things, put the wrong people in charge, didn't keep up with maintenance and expansion.

[elehhhhna]

55. PDVSA has been a shit show forever

has been a shit show forever. Government owned oil companies don't hire the brightest or the best they hire the children of friends of the government.

[Voltaire2]

7. We've been actively "meddling" in Venezuela for decades.

It is what we do. The fact that it was done to us is fairy ironic.

[DetlefK]

8. What makes you think that anybody is funding the unrest? Paranoia much?

Let's summarize:
- Price of oil is down.
- Socialist Venezuela would have to cut expenses, but cannot, because socialism.
- Government prints money. Inflation. Imports become more and more expensive. Trade disrupted. Shortages.
- Maduro refuses to change anything.
- Opposition wins parliamentary elections. Calls for Maduro to step down.
- Opposition calls for early presidential election. Maduro sabotages effort with procedural tricks.
- Venezuelan Supreme Court, handpicked by Maduro, putsches and declares parliament dissolved, declares itself the new parliament. Backtracks amid public outcry.
- Protesters demand new presidential elections. Maduro proposes constitutional referendum that would give him more powers.
- Mob attacks parliament, beats up representatives, while the National Guard just stands aside and does nothing.
- Maduro promises, if the socialist revolution fails at the ballot-box, he will come back with guns.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/110856116
- The opposition holds a mock-election, essentially a poll, to prove that Maduro no longer has the support of the people. Maduro attacks the poll as illegitimate.



And all the while this political chaos is going on, Maduro is doing jack-shit to solve the economic crisis.

There is only one conclusion why people would protest against Maduro's rule: Someone is funding the unrest.

[Lee-Lee]

9. Well said

Even if there are powers in oaky funding the opposition it's not like they have forced any of Maduro's moves.

He pretty much brought this one on himself.

Lesson learned for future leaders- if your going to have the government provide service don't depend on the sale of one highly volatile commodity to fund it, or if you do be like Norway and invest that money in a fund that keeps producing no matter what the price of that commodity does or what your sales do.

Had Chavez done what Norway did and invest oil proceeds in a fund and then use the proceeds of that fund to fund everything none of this would be playing out now. Instead he went for a model of direct redistribution of proceeds, and now the proceeds are not there.

[tammywammy]

16. +1 n/t

[JHan]

19. yup

[COLGATE4]

34. Beautifully explained.

But there are always those few on DU who must insist (it's a matter of faith) that the only reason the Chavez-Maduro 'bolivarian revolution' failed is due to outside agencies.

[COLGATE4]

35. The only thing I would add to your excellent list:

the kleptocracy of those in power, stealing untold millions upon millons of dollars through cronyism, bribery, manipulation of the rates of exchange and cooperation with the drug cartels.

[malaise]

38. I lived through similar destabilization

The similarities are frightening. Truth will out. Eventually the files will be opened - just like the others.

[DetlefK]

42. Let's look at this from the opposite direction:

If you were a citizen of Venezuela, how much would I have to bribe you to start protesting against the government?

[malaise]

45. You can look from any direction you wish n/t

[DetlefK]

48. No, seriously. How much?

Would you protest against the government when the country is in chaos and the President is grabbing for more and more power?

[EX500rider]

75. The correct answer being you couldn't stop me.

No bribe needed.

[uponit7771]

65. "because socialism" this is bull shit on a stick

[DetlefK]

72. Mark my words: Venezuela will go the way of Romania.

Maduro's argument for not changing the economic policy is that the socialist society as founded by Chavez is perfect. There is no need to change it.

That's the problem with all political systems who define themselves as perfect:
* No need to change capitalism with regulations, because capitalism is perfect.
* No need for a democratically elected parliament in Gaddafi's Libya, because everybody is already represented by the councils (that gerrymander minority-opinions out of existence).
* No need to change a socialist economy like Venezuela or Cold-War-Romania. Everybody is already taken care of.



Romania is very rich in ressources: Oil, gold-mines, timber, agrarian products, seafood.

Yet the socialist dictator Ceausescu somehow managed to run the country into the ground to a point short of outright famines.

A local pastor critical of the regime was fired under flimsy circumstances.

Tiny protests in support of the pastor quickly grew into nationwide protests against the lack of civil rights and personal freedoms.

The dictator tried to calm the masses with a public speech. The people were shocked when it became obvious that he didn't even understand why the people were protesting. He thought it was about money. It was about freedom.

The protest turned into street-warfare. One week of open warfare in the streets of the capital.

Bit by bit, the rats left the sinking ship and his advisors and staffers left Ceausescu. In the end, only the agents of his brutal secret police "Securitate" remained loyal to him. He tried to flee with his personal helicopter, but the pilot faked an emergency-landing due to a technical malfunction. When Ceausescu and his bodyguards left the helicopter, he bailed. They tried to commandeer a car and were eventually caught.

The rebels planned to hold a show-trial for Ceasusescu on TV and sentence him to death. When rumors arose that "Securitate"-agents would try to free him, they just led him into a backyard and shot him in the head.

And after the socialism came capitalism and with the capitalism corruption. Nowadays the Romanians are free, the economy is hard-core capitalist and the government is deeply corrupt. But at least the people are free and the poverty isn't as bad as during socialism.

[FBaggins]

10. Maduro of course

What a ridiculous question. As though unrest needs to be "funded" when people are dying of starvation, dealing with hyperinflation, and "led" by a corrupt dictator.

[rainy]

12. Capitalists and oligarchs.

Last edited Mon Jul 24, 2017, 09:04 AM - Edit history (1)

They want to control the government and natural resources for profit. It's the same story around the world. If the people don't comply all havac ensues. That is why Madura tried to shut down certain broadcasts, they were like FOX on steroids inciting violence against him and the government.

[JHan]

13. You think it is right for a government to crack down on press freedoms?

[rainy]

17. What do you do with a pretend press that is operated

for the sole purpose of your destruction and lies and encites violence and death? You might declare that they are not news and take away their license to operate as news.

[JHan]

18. I expect better from states that claim to be "socialist"

The low bar set for socialist states simply because their leaders insult the UN or the U.S. or the International Order always amazes me.

[Loki Liesmith]

26. So basically what Trump wants to do here?

[rainy]

30. More like if Fox had called for the overthrowing

of the government, called for a coup and the destruction of Obama. I think at that point the FCC could take away their contract to use public air.

[mythology]

29. Yes, I remember when Obama did that to Fox News. Oh wait, that didn't happen

Maduro isn't some great defender of the people beset upon by a corrupt press. He's a corrupt and incompetent leader who is trying to become a dictator.

[malaise]

46. Like Fox

That should have been done ages ago.
Fox is a major part of the undermining of democracy in America.

[tammywammy]

53. You think the US government should shut down Fox News?

[Initech]

88. That's what Rump is doing.

I cringe when he attacks the "fake news" media.

[DFW]

14. I have spoken to Venezuelan friends

From what they tell me, the posts by DetlefK and FBaggins are correct in their assessments. I have lived and gone to school in Spain. My Spanish is up to the task. This mess is homegrown, and not the work of a bunch of stock slogans, which makes sense. No foreign power wants to take over an expensive wreck.

[Bradical79]

67. Heard the same from one person

Neighbors murdered by pro government forces, friends and family arrested or missing, now he's trying to get to Canada. This is all on Maduro. People turning this into some Big Oil, Capitalist conspiracy are morons or liars. They're no better than Nazi sympathisers, imo, and I hate them.

[MyNameGoesHere]

15. It doesn't matter who is funding it

When it's over the country will go back to being ruled by rich elite with the USA there lending a helping hand. And the gains the poor made will be wiped away. Business as usual capitalist style.

[Adrahil]

22. The gains weren't sustainable under Maduro.

It's obvious Maduro is imcompetent and the Venezuelan economy is a shambles. Whatever gains there were for the poor have been all but wiped out by corruption and stupidity.

[MyNameGoesHere]

28. Maduro was a ass

And the gains were made before that. History is longer than a couple of years.

[Adrahil]

40. On that we agree. And it's time for Maduro to go.

One man, and a single regime of government cannot be the focus of any long term strategy.

To save Venezuela, those who want to serve the purposes of the "revolution" must be willing to oppose Maduro and replace him with leader willing to try new ideas and reject the authoritarian bent the Bolivarans have taken. But history tells us that's unlikely.0

It's no mistake that Venezuela has taken the path of many "Marxist" revolutions before it. The proletariat takes control of the state apparatus and then just STAYS. And worse, they imbue power to a oligarchy that become de facto royalty. Each great leader tends to pick his or her successor, based more on political loyalty than political competence... and with virtual disregard for good governance.

One party rule is never healthy. Corruption almost inevitably follows. And then economic malaise at best, or collapse, as we're seeing in Venezuela.

[rainy]

31. Agree!

[EX500rider]

78. More likely they will go back to food on the table and goods and medicine available.

The HORROR!!

[Voltaire2]

84. Chavez rose to power during the economic crisis created by a neoliberal austerity regime.

[EX500rider]

85. Yes...in 1999..

....they've had 18 years at the helm since then, things better now are they?

[Voltaire2]

87. So we can conclude that "socialism" isn't really the problem.

Like many other resource rich states, corruption is more of a factor than ideology. If the government invests resource revenue for the future benefit of the country, the nation does well. If instead the revenue just ends up in the hands of a few corrupt individuals, as in the neoliberal regime of the 90's, or is squandered as in the late Chavez and Maduro eras, the economy suffers.

[JHan]

20. DetlefK covered the core issues well and maybe the opposition is getting outside assistance.. but...

the chaos is Maduro's doing.

[Adrahil]

21. It's just down to the failure of the Bolivarans.

Waiting in long lines to buy basics that might not even be available seems to be an issue for people. Ultimately, you need an economic plan with actual depth and thought behind it. And maybe a leader who has some competence. Seizing assets will only take you so far. Eventually you have to have a sustainable economic plan.

[Loki Liesmith]

24. "A command economy failed. Quick, who can we blame?"

Try the Bolivarian clown show for starters.

[m-lekktor]

25. The Deep State!

[nycbos]

27. Maybe the unrest was caused buy a corrupt government...

... running an economy into the ground.

[Kaleva]

33. +1000

Who funded the French Revolution? Big Oil?

[nycbos]

41. It was a secret plot the British empire to weaken France don't you know.

[melm00se]

43. no no no

it was the fault of the USA. The colonies (and then the United State of America) took the money that the French borrowed to fund the Seven Years War and the War of Independence.

This the blueprint of America's fault in all things.

[mythology]

32. You're right it does have a familiar pattern

There are many examples in history of people rising up against a corrupt incompetent government. This is one of them. The Venezuelan government's experiment with socialism was doomed from the start when they built their economy around oil alone. Doing so raised their economy in the short term but it wasn't sustainable as oil prices drop.

[brooklynite]

36. I was wonder where our resident Chavistas had gotten to...

Maybe the unrest is caused by an autocratic President who doesn't support democratic Government principles (it has a familiar pattern).

[L. Coyote]

37. Russia is meddling in western democracies that proiduce oil.

[Igel]

68. Yeah, but they liked Venezuela.

Of course, there's that loan with just under half of Citgo as collateral.

The loans that's due for a large payment. Else Russia may own nearly half of Citgo.

[L. Coyote]

76. More like they covet Venezuela.

Or should I say, just the oil?

[DemocraticWing]

44. An opposition which kills people in their sleep and burns food to cause shortages...

Sounds like the American government to me, they love killing people in the service of corporations.

And yeah, Maduro isn't perfect and Venezuela should have diversified their economy years ago. At some point the PSUV abandoned socialism for a corrupt bureaucratic management system and should be replaced by an authentic Left party.

But the "opposition" right now are mostly right-wing terrorists intent on killing the poor to make a buck, and are controlled by rich, white people who don't give a shit about what happens to the people of Venezuela.

[hack89]

49. "burns food to cause shortages" WTF?

there is no food because there are no dollars. There are no dollars due to excessive debt and fucked up currency laws.

[COLGATE4]

51. Don't disabuse them of their dream - it's always somebody else's

fault that Venezuela is circling the drain as we speak.

[DemocraticWing]

57. Venezuela Protesters Set 40 Tons of Subsidized Food on Fire

http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Venezuela-Protesters-Set-40-Tons-of-Subsidized-Food-on-Fire-20170630-0017.html

[hack89]

60. Couple of things here

1. There have been food shortages and rationing for several years. An incident a month ago sheds no light on have they got into the mess they are in. It, for example, does not explain how the economy has shut down because there are insufficient foreign reserves to import food, medicines, and manufactured goods.

2. Telesur is government news. It is funded in part by the governments of VZ and Cuba. It is not an unbiased source.

[DemocraticWing]

62. There's no such thing as an unbiased source.

We all have biases. It's better if you present them upfront.

[hack89]

64. Ok. Now can you address my first point? nt

[EX500rider]

77. There are less biased and more biased though...

....in this case being the mouthpiece of the Venz govt I am going with more biased.

[JHan]

70. +++

[Igel]

69. There isn't "an" opposition.

There is "a" government. They're different sorts of things. One's monolithic to the extent it self-polices. Chain of command, internal lines of authority and discipline. There's a clear inside and out.

The other is more diffuse and often factionalized. A group pisses off "the leader" and gets kicked out, it's still opposition.

[geek tragedy]

54. Maduro is fueling it with his gross incompetence and general thuggishness nt

[KG]

56. Susan sarandon? Jill Stein? Bernie bros?

[moondust]

58. I dunno but always suspicious

when there is a whole lot of oil involved. Even more suspicious than usual with the new fossil fuel regime running the U.S. government. "Rexxon" seems unlikely to make a serious effort to try to stop any "mischief," and may actually be helping behind the scenes to foment trouble through local businessmen, etc, who may see themselves getting very, very rich off privatizing the oil.

Let's see...Chile, Iran, Iraq, ...

[malaise]

86. And many more

Thanks for your response

[Casprings]

61. Maduro NT

[Dr. Strange]

66. Joe Biden

http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=2372154&CategoryId=10717

Obviously.

[Dreamer Tatum]

71. Manuro, but you knew that. nt

[EX500rider]

73. Lets look at the pattern then..

1st, Venezuela nationalized her oil back in the early '70's-over 60% of oil producing countries have.

Chavez come to power, fires "non-loyalists" essential workers in oil production and replaces them with Loyalists.
Oil production suffers and degrades.
Blows through 100 billion dollars in oil money but somehow neglects the power/water grid which is now near failing and subjects to daily blackouts etc.
Borrow another 50 billion from China and some more from Russia and Iran if you can.
Start seizing foreign oil equipment and factories etc, leading to no foreign investment or oil production expertise,
Go on to what never work- price and currency controls, while over printing money which fuels the rapid inflation.
The currency controls give one exchange rate to govt officials, another higher rate to favored vendors and a 3rd much higher rate to the public. While the real rate is in the black market exchange rates. Net effect, dollars needed to buy imports impossible to find or afford so import goods dry up but govt officials rake it in on the exchange.
Venz does not grow enough food to feed itself-has to import with dollars. Local currency "Bolivar" tanks due to the inflation, foreign countries won't take it for payments.
Add strict price controls while you have 800% inflation means vendors can't replace stock with what they get paid so goods dry up again. Vendors can't sell under cost for long so they warehouse the goods till something changes or ship them across the border to be sold above costs. Govt points to the evil plans of the capitalists who store goods you need or ship them elsewhere!
Add govt giving away gas for $.12-$.25 a gal means you have a huge black-market of fuel going across all the borders to be sold for $3+ a gal.
Radically underpay your medical staffs so they flee to other countries so they can feed their kids.
Brain drain across all sectors as goods and medical help drys up.
Make a deal with Cuba, oil for doctors, also gets some help with how to hold on to power forever like the Castros.
(People who tend to be pro Chavista/Maduro tend to think Cuba is a vibrant democracy also)
Start shutting down opposition press and trumping up charges against popular politician's and Mayors in other parties and jailing them.
Stuff the Supreme Court so it rubbers stamps whatever you need. Get granted special powers by the court.
Arm your followers and give them colored shirts, red in this case. Unleash them on any signs of protest.
Blame the US for everything even though the US is both Venezuela's largest trading partner for imports AND exports and refines their oil for them.
Have the highest murder rate in S.America by far, Caracas is the murder capital of the world with a rate near 200 per 100,000 (US avg rate 4.7)

You really think you need the CIA to fund unrest in that country?
Place is coming apart at the seams due to govt incompetence with no foreign help needed or in evidence.

[VermontKevin]

83. I think any CIA efforts in VZ are directed at containment.

Maduro is a failed leader. He's managed to do that of his own accord. I have no doubt that the CIA closely monitors the situation, but I don't think a dangerously unstable VZ is of benefit to anyone, including our allies in the region. Pompeo has indicated that he is concerned about weapons trade and spreading violence. I think he's right to be worried.

The CIA makes a good boogeyman for Maduro and those corrupt and in power in VZ.

[rainy]

89. USA Mexico and Columbia

https://popularresistance.org/cia-says-they-are-working-with-mexico-colombia-to-overthrow-venezuela/