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Archae

(46,323 posts)
Thu Jul 12, 2012, 05:25 PM Jul 2012

"What's the harm" with woo?

How many have died due to these fake "detectors?"

A businessman who sold a bomb-detecting device to 20 countries, including Iraq, has been charged with fraud, Avon and Somerset Police said.

Jim McCormick, 55, has been on bail for two-and-a-half years while police examined the sale of the device.

A BBC Newsnight investigation in 2010 showed the ADE-651 did not work and led to the British government banning its export to Iraq and Afghanistan.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18795651

UK government promoted useless 'bomb detectors' The UK government has admitted that the Army and UK civil servants helped market so-called "bomb detectors", which did not work, around the world. Export of the "magic wand" detectors to Iraq and Afghanistan was banned on 27 January 2010 because of the threat they posed to British and allied troops. The move followed a BBC Newsnight investigation showing they could not detect explosives - or anything else. Now Newsnight has learned that they are still being sold around the globe.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/9377875.stm

13 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Spike89

(1,569 posts)
1. Woo is dangerous
Thu Jul 12, 2012, 05:49 PM
Jul 2012

I hate to use an anecdotal "proof", but maybe the woo-lovers can only relate to that type story...a coworker of mine has been suffering from persistent back and hip pain. Her chiropractor regularly adjuster her, giving her immediate relief which lasted for a week or so, then after time for a day or two, and finally the relief lasted just long enough to get to the receptionist to pay for the visit. She went to an actual doctor who examined her hip, took X-rays, and immediately discovered a stretched/torn tendon. Each and every visit to the chiropractor had actually weakened the joint.
A simple (and reportedly comfortable) elastic brace (about $15) totally eliminated the pain. Although surgery is probably the only "cure" at this point, she is totally pleased. Had she visited the doctor rather than waited, the joint with the stabilization therapy probably would have healed at least somewhat.
This chiropractor is actually not one of the "crazy" ones--his claims pretty much ended with "therapeutic massage" and healthy realignment for muscle, joint and back pain. But nonetheless, his "treatments" not only were effectively worthless, they most likely made the condition he was treating even worse and by offering hope over the 6+ months my coworker saw him, he certainly caused harm that could have been treated.

 

Fire Walk With Me

(38,893 posts)
2. One visit to the right chiropractor completely fixed a problem an MRI machine couldn't find.
Thu Jul 12, 2012, 05:54 PM
Jul 2012

I was experiencing increasing numbness on the entire right side of my body after a car hit mine from behind. It was beginning to spread to my left side as well. One session eliminated it.

There is "woo", and there is empiric "woo". Always seek empiricism.

 

Fire Walk With Me

(38,893 posts)
7. I was terrified because the doctors couldn't help me. I got lucky and found the answer.
Thu Jul 12, 2012, 06:21 PM
Jul 2012

I cannot call it empiric because I have only done it once, but it worked and I would not like to repeat the experience to find out.

And I am by no means endorsing genuine, harmful nonsense. Only what actually is of benefit.

panader0

(25,816 posts)
5. People need to be in touch with their bodies.
Thu Jul 12, 2012, 06:01 PM
Jul 2012

I can tell when I have pain if it is in my spine (I'm a bricklayer), or a muscle. I have healed myself from several injuries instead of going to a doctor. I go to a chiro about once a year and he is better than any AMA type.

ljm2002

(10,751 posts)
12. A former in-law of mine had back problems...
Thu Jul 12, 2012, 09:28 PM
Jul 2012

...her back would go out so bad that you could see the hips moved 3 inches out of alignment from the center, compared to her torso.

She worked at Kaiser Permanente in Oakland, and went to a back specialist there.

He told her he'd have to either put her in traction or operate, and the outcome wasn't guaranteed. His advice was to see a chiropractor, and he referred her to one.

Worked like a charm.

Anecdotal, yes. I personally know it happened as she recounted the story to me, and I did see the out-of-alignment visibly before she was treated.

There is no need to dismiss all possible, non-Western treatments with one fell swoop. Sure there are charlatans out there, and yes, the scientific method is valuable -- invaluable, actually. But wholistic approaches have their place too. Chinese and Indian traditional treatments may not be a scientifically-vetted; on the other hand, they benefit from centuries of empirical testing, which is really another form of the scientific method.

Also, many of our Western medicines have their origin in folk treatments. Aspirin is purified from willow bark; willow bark tea was a Native American remedy for headaches.

There has been an ongoing dispute between traditional practices in India vs. patents claimed by W.R. Grace, and American company, concerning use of neem tree extracts as a natural pesticide. Here are two references:

http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/pir-ch.htm

http://www1.american.edu/ted/neemtree.htm

Basically, the Indian practitioners view these patents as simply an attempt to steal their knowledge and processes they have been using for thousands of years.

There really are different, useful approaches. Not everything can be reduced to a single, pinpointed, scientifically-proven item, especially when we are talking about living systems. Please note, I am not rejecting scientifically-proven treatments, either: modern Western medicine is indeed a marvel, although I would argue it seems to have taken a wrong turn with the over-reliance on a pill for every ailment, real or imagined. But trying to dismiss hundreds or thousands of years of empirical usage seems ridiculous to me, even if there are some people who may be charlatans. There are charlatans in every field of endeavor: we have in the last 15 years seen more than a few cases of scientific malpractice as well -- as in outright lying about results. Yet we don't dismiss science as a result of that.

OneGrassRoot

(22,920 posts)
13. There are quacks in every field and there is misdiagnosis and mismanagement in every field...
Thu Jul 12, 2012, 09:47 PM
Jul 2012

but all reputable chiropractors take x-rays on the first visit -- before administering treatment.

I'm getting tired of coming to GD to see all this "anti-woo" stuff.

I know, I know...don't let the door hit me in the ass.

Archae

(46,323 posts)
9. People believe in Fairies too.
Thu Jul 12, 2012, 08:24 PM
Jul 2012

Believing a worthless gadget is going to "detect" explosives in areas where terrorism is rampant is a recipe for suicide.

This guy is counting on playing an entire government (Iraq) for suckers, and making millions of $$$, and he doesn't give a shit that his fake gadgets are resulting in people getting blown up.

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